Is it cruel to take Christmas away from kids as punishment?

[Xithras]

Two weeks ago I told my two older kids (12 and 9) that they had to behave for two weeks, keep their bedrooms clean, and help around the house WITHOUT ME ASKING, if they wanted a Christmas this year. This wasn't an out of the blue ultimatum, but came after weeks of fighting with them over their trashing the house, them fighting with each other incessantly, and them refusing to clean their bedrooms (I literally cannot see the carpet in my daughters room anymore, every square inch is covered in junk). The two weeks ends tomorrow morning, and nothing has changed. They still haven't cleaned their rooms, they fight like cats and dogs, and if anything the messes they're leaving around the house have gotten WORSE (example: my son dumped half a two liter of root beer on the kitchen counter and floor, and walked off without cleaning it up...I found it crawling with ants an hour later).

I told my wife this morning that I want to go through with it and take all their presents back. Our 1 year old will get his presents, but I have no interest in rewarding the terrible behavior of the other two. My wife thinks that the suggestion is cruel and was shocked that I'd even consider not giving our kids presents for Christmas.

What's your opinion?

[Rising Phoenix]

1. being a kid at heart...

ouch...

[LaraMN]

2. Maybe consider taking away ONE gift for each day they mess up?

I bet after losing one or two, it might sink in. They would be choosing whether or not, through their own continued behavior, they have anything under the tree by Christmas.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

51. I like this idea.

It shows you mean business while still giving them the opportunity to shape up.

[Loonman]

3. Do it , man

Women are always too soft for this sort of thing.

[Midlodemocrat]

4. I don't think you should equate Christmas with obedience.

I think it could be mighty traumatic to have no gifts Christmas morning, especially since one of them is only 9.

That being said, I can totally understand your frustration with their non compliance, but I would take away some other privilege, like TV, phone, computer, playing with friends, etc.

Just my $.02

[Xithras]

7. Obedience? No. But doesn't have a list of the naughty kids?

They don't believe in Santa anymore, but I was raised to believe that you didn't receive gifts just for the heck of it, but because people loved you and appreciated the joy you brought to their lives. Right now, I'm not feeling much joy.

I guess what really pisses me off is that they're ignoring the ultimatum because they BELIEVE that I AM bluffing. If I back down now, what's that do to my credibility when I threaten them with punishment for misbehaving the rest of the year?

[JVS]

10. You can't back down! You must retain your credibility!

[Midlodemocrat]

14. Well, all I know is that a friend of mine had a sister that

received coal in her stocking 40 years ago and apparently it took her a really long time to get over it.

I couldn't do it. I think the punishment doesn't fit the crime.

[Arkansas Granny]

84. I always thought that was the neat thing about giving my kids

privileges. They could be taken away for bad behavior or poor performance. I would have been too soft to take all their Christmas presents, though, even if I had threatened them with it.

[JVS]

5. Go for it! But I might do it slightly differently.

Perhaps on Xmas day you could announce that you've cancelled Xmas for bad behavior, and instead of returning the gifts keep them around (secretly) until you feel like giving them to the kids (i.e after they've shaped up). Maybe in March if they start being good now.

[matcom]

6. do they still believe in Santa?

tell them he doesn't exist BEFORE you take the gifts away :D

[JVS]

8. No way. You have to talk about midnight negotiations with Santa failing.

And Xmas not happening because of it. And how in the anger of the moment you killed santa!

[matcom]

11. ooooo then, the next day

serve them Venison and tell them its Rudolph! :think:

[tigereye]

77. on man, Matcom

I can't wait til you have kids.... ( you don't yet, do ya?) ;)

[Xithras]

12. ROFLOL!

:rofl:

[Xithras]

13. No.

They say they do because they still want the yearly "Santa" present (typically the best of the lot), but neither of them has actually believed in years. It's more of a game at this point.

[lakemonster11]

119. My brother and I are in our twenties

and we still pretend to believe in Santa Claus. We leave out cookies and everything. And my brother still wakes us all up at some ridiculous hour on Christmas morning, usually by running into everyone's rooms and scaring us all half to death.

Of course, now Santa just brings us oranges. Our parents get to take credit for the good gifts. :)

[bertha katzenengel]

135. then take away the "Santa" present.

maybe make it a reward for improved behavior some time next year.

:shrug:

good luck, Xithras

[Shell Beau]

9. I think it is cruel! I mean isn't there some other way?

But do what you feel is best.

[matcom]

15. he could cut off a finger each

and still have xmas.

DAMN! i woulda made such a good daddy!

[Midlodemocrat]

18. Yeah. A great one.

Between your lust for teenaged girls and your desire to cut off young ones' digits, you would have been Father of the Year.

[matcom]

19. she won't be a teenager for ever!

:bounce:

[Midlodemocrat]

22. Oh. Dear. God.

You are killing me. My poor little girl...who had a solo in the concert the other night and did beautifully I might add. Beauty, brains and talent....just like her mom.

:bounce:

[Shell Beau]

25. You keep thinking that!!

And when social services shows up at your door, don't be too surprised!! :rofl:



:P

[Xithras]

16. Do you have any suggestions?

I agree that it's a drastic step, but if they've been warned multiple times and STILL refuse to even clean their rooms, what am I supposed to do? Let them get away with it?

[Shell Beau]

26. I don't have children yet, so I may not be the best judge here.

But I know that as a child, I would've been devastated if my parents took that away from me. As silly as this may sound, that would have stayed with me for a long time. I don't know what you can do. Sorry! :shrug:

[JVS]

34. I would have been devastated too, but I'd have learned a hell of lesson.

[LostinVA]

123. I agree, I don't think the punishment fits the crime

Suggestions? Take away something else of theirs: TVs, video games, etc. Something in their ordinary lives.

Christmas is something special. I suspect if you asked child development and child psych experts, they would tell you this is something you shouldn't do. This kinda goes beyond ordinary punishment. And, they will remember this -- in a bad way -- for a long, long time.

[Orsino]

17. If the two weeks is over now, don't expect any imporovement in...

...the next ten days. Right now, the kids are in the situation of the driver who spots a traffic cop writing a parking ticket, who decides to return to whatever he was doing.

I don't think it was a bad idea, but now the incentive for good behavior is gone. And with your wife not on board, it will be very difficult to enforce.

Please let us know how it turns out, though. Good luck!

[JVS]

20. One warning: prepare for a really shitty Xmas day. Crying, tantrums, etc.

[MissMillie]

21. Well, certainly you need to back up your words

And yep, you put down the gauntlet. They're calling your bluff.

I agree with another poster that gives them another chance. But I wouldn't let them know about the second chance until they see that you've stuck to your guns about Christmas Day.

Let them be a bit devastated that Santa doesn't show up. Tell them that you're a man of your word but that they can redeem themselves by changing their behavior immediately. Tell them you can have Christmas on New Years if they manage to conduct themselves in the manner you expect.

[eyesroll]

23. Are you religious?

If Christmas, for you, is about the birth of Jesus Christ, then taking Christmas away from kids sends them an inconsistent message. ("The birth of Jesus is scared and holy, unless you misbehave, in which case it's disposable.")

I'm assuming you're talking about "taking Christmas presents away," not "taking Christmas" away. (Sorry. It's a peeve of mine, and I didn't even celebrate Christmas growing up.)

I don't see how it would be cruel to withhold presents (you're not withholding food or forcing them to go to school in inadequate clothing or something), though, although it may be counter-productive. (Kids will see presents = bribe, and begin to expect rewards for behaving like they're supposed to. "I didn't mouth off to the teacher today. Where's my cookie?" )

[miss_american_pie]

24. Gently stepping in here

IMHO perhaps tying the consequence more closely to the behavior may get you the results you want, especially for the younger one.

For instance, when you saw your son spill the soda was he reminded to clean up after himself? I know you want to get to the point where they clean up without your asking, but you may need an intermediate step to get there. What would the punishment for that have been in the past?

[Xithras]

71. The thing is, they used to clean up after themselves.

My daughter seems to be entering her rebellious phase a little early, and my son takes the attitude that if she can do it, he can do it. And yes, I did tell him to clean it up. He screamed and yelled, did a poor job of it, so I made him do it again. When it was stil stciky after the second time, I had to finish it myself.

Typically the punishment for that kind of misbehavior is to get sent to his room for a while, and the punishment is standing in a corner (I'm rather old fashioned, and it's an effective punishment).

[miss_american_pie]

79. I have a friend whose parents made her stand with her arms out

at shoulder level. She said she wished they'd just giver her time out instead.

That adolescent phase is hard on everyone. If it were my kid with the spilling, I think I'd help him clean it properly the first time, and then he'd only be allowed to help himself to water.

Good luck.

[matcom]

27. Ok. REAL Suggestion Here!

seriously. why not PRETEND christmas was blown to hell on christmas day. no gifts. act like they fucked it up.

use that day to 1) teach them what gift giving TRULY means 2) use that day to 'teach' consequences for behaviors (good long talks)

have a nice dinner and send them off to bed. then surprise them with christmas THE DAY AFTER (assuming that some of the discussions have kicked in)

[Midlodemocrat]

30. Now, surprisingly, that is a great suggestion.

J/K. It really is a good idea...

[matcom]

33. you're surprised?

:D

if you need help raising your daughter.....

:hide:

[Midlodemocrat]

37. I just might. She is getting a tad mouthy.

and just ASSUMES I am getting her a car when she turns 16.

:eyes:

[matcom]

38. i like them 'mouthy'

:bounce:

:hide:

[Midlodemocrat]

39. Well, I walked right into that one, didn't I?

:banghead:

[matcom]

40. you always do sweetie

you always do :hug:

[China_cat]

50. Hot wheels are cheap and don't need insurance.

And the box would be small enough that she'd think it was a key.

[WolverineDG]

64. my dad did that to me

sure, i was all :cry: that day, but i still have that damn car & smile everytime i see it.

dg

[JVS]

31. No. It has to be delayed enough to see if the message of guilt + shame...

has reformed them. Feb. 1st at the soonest.

[Rabrrrrrr]

54. I would delay it until epiphany (Jan. 6, BTW)

It's the next symbolic gift giving day, and it's almost two weeks after Christmas so it's a long enough time to see some behavioral changes.

If the OP can't hold out that long, than go for new year's day.

But not Boxing Day. That's too soon.

[Xithras]

73. Ah, yes. We're Catholic and celebrate Epiphany anyway.

Good idea.

[kick-ass-bob]

60. Oh YES!

This is brilliant! :thumbsup:



Did I really say that?

[matcom]

63. my one good idea for the year

snuck it in just in time :D

[Xithras]

72. Hey, I LIKE that idea!

I wouldn't want you anywhere near my daughter (she's an excellent violin player and needs all her fingers), but that's a sage bit of advice there. I'll have to float that one to my wife.

[matcom]

74. every now and then i come up with one

and go figure! i don't even have kids! :D

:hi:

[Left Is Write]

28. My opinion...

You should not have issued the ultimatum without your wife's agreement. No parent should be issuing such a drastic ultimatum without the full support of the other parent. It's bound to lead to trouble otherwise.

Yes, I do think it's cruel to take away Christmas. It may also backfire on you, sending the kids into full "fuck you, Dad" mode. They wouldn't have much else to lose.

You can get out of your ultimatum and still retain your credibility as a parent. Sit the kids down and explain that you made the ultimatum out of frustration. Then go on to inform them that you are still angry/upset that they have ignored your instructions and they will still have to face the music. Take away another privilege they really enjoy - television, computer, what-have-you. Tell them they must earn that privilege back, and give them clear, specific instructions how to do so. Tell them the privilege will not be earned back until all of your criteria have been satisfied.

I agree that their behavior needs correction. I just don't think taking away Christmas is the way to do it (though I do understand your reasoning, really I do).

[Xithras]

75. My wife agreed, she just didn't think it would come to this.

She also thought, as I did, that the mere threat of losing their Christmas presents would be enough to straighten them out for a few weeks. We really didn't expect them to IGNORE us like this. Now that the time is up, she just doesn't want to go through with it.

As for taking away privledges, that doesn't tend to work too well with my kids. They'll usually act like perfect angels to get whatever the privledge was back, but they revert right back once the punishment has been lifted. This time around, I was looking for a punishment that they would remember, and that would have a lasting impression on them. Losing all of their gifts one year is certainly a punishment they'd never forget.

[Left Is Write]

76. Yes, it is...

but it might not send the message you want. They WILL remember it for years. And it might destroy any warm and happy memories of family holidays that they will ever have. I really think it would be better to devise a consequence that doesn't interfere with your family celebrations. Try to get their attention some other way.

[Lex]

29. Sorry, but let's be honest--they didn't just start this behavior overnight

and although you might flame the hell out of me, some of the behavior of the kids lies at the feet of the parents behavior too.

A kid who "dumped half a two liter of root beer on the kitchen counter and floor, and walked off without cleaning it up" is not a kid who feels invested as a part of your family in some way.

Harsh punishment will not make the situation better, imho.

*climbs in flame-retardant suit*

[Xithras]

81. No flames here, but I'll admit that we're not strict parents.

My kids don't like some of my parenting practices (no computers or TV's in their bedrooms, bedtimes are strictly enforced, everyone eats dinner at the table every night no matter WHAT'S on TV), but for the most part I let them have fun with their childhoods. The thing is, we taught them from an early age that they need to clean up after themselves and that respect is something that must be given if they want any themselves. People actually used to marvel at how well behaved my kids were, and that they always said "Please", "Thank You", and had excellent manners. The funny thing is, I didn't "instill" these values...I do these things myself and they just picked them up.

Over the past year however, my daughter has grown quite a bit more rebellious. I guess it's a natural thing since she's entered puberty, but she grown mouthy and has developed a hell of an attitude. We've tried to talk to her, cajole her, and even bribe her into knocking it off, but the harder we push, the harder she pushes back. Her whole attitude is that she can do whatever she wants because we can't really stop her. Her little brother has seen this attitude shift and lack of respect, and is copying it. Whenever he gets in trouble for it, the first thing he says is, "But JENNY does it!!"

It has me pulling my hair out at this point, and I'm just trying to figure out how to drive the lesson home that they will be treated with the same respect that they give to other people, and that you have to give love and cooperation if you ever want to get it. I've TRIED talking, many many many times, but it doesn't do any good.

I'm sure that some professional analyst could walk in and tell me exactly what I'm doing to screw up my kids lives, but I can't see where I went wrong.

[Midlodemocrat]

95. Okay, stepping in here as

a psychologist who used to work with adolescents.

Your daughter is testing your boundaries, completely normal, actually if she weren't doing it, you should be worried. Your son sees what she gets away with, because let's face it you have to pick your battles or you would lose your mind, and thinks he can push your buttons as well.

Bottom line here...You are not screwing up your kids. You obviously love them and that is huge.

I know you didn't ask, and if you flame me, I will understand, but perhaps it is time to have a family meeting and discuss the things that bother you, your wife, AND the kids. I have found both professionally and personally, that there is usually an underlying reason why kids misbehave.

I am sure you can get to the bottom of it. We had a 'Come to Jesus' about 2 weeks ago because I just couldn't get everything done for the holiday with working, homeschooling and dealing with my FIL and when I explained to them what I expected out of them because they are PART OF THIS FAMILY and are therefore obligated to help, it made a world of difference. We discussed which chores each would do so I wouldn't have to.

Good luck. You are a good dad.

[hedgehog]

129. Don't write this off as a natural thing due to puberty

In our case, our daughter's sudden shift in attitude was a sign of a serious slide into depression. Don't do anything drastic to wreck Christmas. Talk to your family doctor. You may be dead right that you haven't done anything wrong, but you may have a problem that you don't recognize.

[Xithras]

133. My daughter? Depressed? Not a bats chance in h***!

Trust me, you've never met such a cheerful, upbeat, energetic, outgoing kid in your life. She's the poster child for hyperactivity, and is involved in more EC activities than I can count (band, soccer, softball, choir, Girl Scouts, garden club, Junior Litter Patrol, school government, science olympiad...the list goes on), and she maintains an A average on top of that. If there were any OTHER behavioral changes, I'd be worried, but it's only her attitude towards us that's changed. We've spoken with her teachers and the adult supervisors in some of her ec activities and they all tell me that she's just as happy and fun to work with as ever.

I do think it's simply the start of her normal rebellious phase, and I don't see any reason to think otherwise. The ONLY psychological problem she's ever had was the early stages of anorexia, and we ended up tracing that to a friend of hers that had a full blown case of it. When we brought it to the girls parents attention, they got her help and my daughter stopped exhibiting any symptoms of it.

[Bridget Burke]

32. Yes, it's cruel.

Looks like you have a longstanding problem. You can't solve it by threatening them & then cutting off communication ("WITHOUT ME ASKING").

Work on stopping the fighting, first. You say that you have been "fighting" with them, so it's OK for you? You are the grownup. Calm down & work it out. Perhaps your wife can help?

About helping around the house--do they have specific chores?

Don't worry about the bedrooms unless they are actually hazardous to their health.

[Left Is Write]

36. I had to stop fighting with my daughter about her room.

It's horrible. When she moves out, we will have to recarpet and repaint. Just looking in there makes me want to vomit.

It was always a losing battle, and I was the one who wound up miserable. Why punish myself? She's 18 now, and I seriously would have no trouble asking her to kick in some of the expense of fixing that room when she leaves.

[tigereye]

80. I always think one should just shut the door when they get

to be that age. (unless the Health Dept needs to be called in!)

[Xithras]

85. My daughters room always has ants in it now.

She takes candybars and stuff in there and just throws the wrappers on the floor. It's disgusting, and since I don't like bugs in my house I want it cleaned.

My sons room is more of a wall-to-wall toy problem. He stopped putting them away, and now I can't even open his bedroom door all the way because he has so much stuff on his floor.

They may not be hazardous to HIS health, but they are hazardous to MY health! Stepping on Lego's SUCKS! I also worry because both of their rooms have tons of choking hazards for our 1 year old, and they leave their doors open. More than once he's run off down the hall into their rooms to have fun in their messes.

[Whoa_Nelly]

100. Things are out of control?

1) No more food in bedrooms. You and your wife can....you're the adults, you make the rules.

2) Use stackable lightweight kid-size containers with snap-on lids. Any toys found left out after the first request to put them away, the toys/preteen items are crated and taken out of the house (garage storage or give'em away). Add a small plastic garbage can with snap on lid to both bedrooms.

3) Safety first. So, Little guy comes first. His sibs have to respect that or you send all toy crates out to garage. Each day of keeping room clean and/or doors closed earns them back the crate you choose.

4) (more of a question...) Have you never watched Nanny 911? Main idea is to show kids and parents how to respect, teach and learn from each other, with the parents being in charge. Matching the positive/negative consquences for their actions of choice is all about being the grown-up.

I posted elsewhere in this thread with another approach.

Once again, good luck! :hi:

[Fleshdancer]

35. You can't go back on your word.

Presents are a privilege, not a right and if they want messy rooms instead of gifts, so be it. In the real world, actions have consequences and if they don't learn this important lesson now, then life is going to kick their asses when they're on their own.

Do you have presents wrapped and under the tree yet? If so, remove them and take them to your neighbor's house or a friends house...somewhere the kids can't find them. Be sure to take ALL of them for dramatic effect. Tonight explain to them that their current behavior and lack of chores is the reason why the presents are gone. Emphasize that this was NOT your decision. It was THEIR decision. THEY knew what would happen if they didn't behave and THEY decided to not clean their rooms, etc.

They're going to beg and plead and probably try to strike a deal with you. It's up to you if you want to negotiate. If it were me, the original conditions would apply plus they would have to volunteer at a homeless shelter.

If they still don't get their acts together, then the gifts you got for them can be used for their next birthdays or next Christmas. If you want to be a real hard ass, you could unwrap their gifts, drive them to Goodwill, and make them donate their gifts.

Whatever you do, don't feel guilty and make sure you and your wife are together on this. Your job as a parent is to prepare your kids to be successful on their own some day and responsibility is an extremely important lesson to learn early in life. Good luck.

[jus_the_facts]

41. My opinion...shouldn't have ever lead 'em to believe in the insanity...

....that every December they'll get their hearts desire....that really fucks some kids heads up for the rest o'their lives....so if you decide to do this...have fun with DR PHIL in a few years! :crazy:

[CatBoreal]

42. Okay, here's my $0.02 (converted from Canadian dollars)

First off, you were wrong to issue that ultamatum, lesson learned on your part.

That being said, if you back down, you're going to loose your credibility.

I'm hoping you've got their presents already wrapped and under the tree. If you do, I would call them into the living room and have them watch while you take their gifts away. You'll probably get some tears and some 'Aw Dad's, which if your like my husband, will rip your heart out. Take them somewhere where the kids can't get at them - but don't tell them where (a neighbour's house is a good idea).

Sit the kids down and tell them why you are upset: they don't respect you, they don't respect each other, they don't respect the house they live in or the work you and your wife put into maintaining their house etc...

Then tell them that for every day that they behave themselves and treat you, your wife, each other and the house with the respect they deserve, they will have a gift returned to them to open on Christmas day. If they do not do so, or if all the gifts are not returned, then they will be donated to the charity of the children's choice.

I'm not sure how you can work it if the presents aren't currently under the tree.

That's what I would do.

Good luck Dad. You're going to need it.

[ScreamingMeemie]

49. Oops!

wrong place

[CatBoreal]

55. Drat Mrs Grumpy...

...I thought someone was actually paying attention to me.

[ScreamingMeemie]

58. Actually, yours is a very good idea!

And I don't mind paying attention to you at all! :hi: How have you been? We're currently being snowed upon...heavily.

[tigereye]

82. nice one cat!

[Xithras]

87. We don't have our tree up yet, but I have an EXCELLENT variation.

As I said in another post, we tend to celebrate following the old fashioned Catholic tradition. Tree goes up on Christmas Eve, and comes down at Epiphany (I know that practically nobody does that anymore, but my grandpa was a Catholic priest before leaving to marry grandma, and he left us with some traditions that are a little archaic nowadays).

I had an interesting variation on the idea though. We could put the tree up a few days early (without decorations) and put all of the presents underneath it for their baby brother and cousins. For each of them, I'll put one lump of charcoal (neatly dressed in a bow, of course) for each gift they would have received. They can trade one lump of coal for a gift each day they behave.

Same symbolism, slightly different implementaiton.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

43. Obivously they didn't get that way overnight

If they're still "trashing the house" at an age when they should know better, that means they were allowed to get away with too much earlier.

It may be beyond them conceptually to connect their defiance with no Christmas presents, especially in the case of the nine-year-old.

"Keep your room clean" is a vague, undefined task. You need to sit down with them and define exactly what that means to you (e.g. nothing left lying on the floor, dirty clothes in the laundry hamper, beds made every morning, etc.) Decide on specific penalties for not doing them as well as specific rewards for doing them regularly, and be consistent, i.e. don't overlook the junk on the floor one day and then yell at them about it the next.

In the case of the root beer on the kitchen floor, I'd say that this was a good opportunity for your son to learn to scrub floors. When he learns how much work that is, he won't be so blithe about leaving a sticky spill.

[JVS]

46. Which underscores the need for this family to change direction.

It is time for harsh and decisive action.

[Fleshdancer]

48. I agree

besides, receiving Christmas gifts is not a right and its not even the point of Christmas. The point for my family is about appreciating friends and family and about the act of giving. For others, the point is centered around Jesus. Either way, the holiday is not about getting stuff.

[malta blue]

44. I say give them lumps of coal and one gift each

You know, this trying to bribe kids to behave is a sticky situation. I have to threaten my 6 y/o with calling the Tae Kwon Do master every time she misbehaves. His number is programmed in my cell phone. I never actually call him, but the threat works most of the time.

I have taken back 2 gifts already this year. I am tired of the bickering. I feel for you, and know it is a difficult situation, but I think that it is okay to take some of the gifts back.

[Iris]

45. You can't really back down now.

My dad used to threaten to take our phone out - like that wouldn't inconvenience HIM as much as the rest of us. Of course, we knew he'd never do it, so we ignored his threats.

You could still have "Christmas" - a tree, dinner, an hour at church - just no presents. Or a significantly reduced number of presents.

[Whoa_Nelly]

59. You CAN back down...and you should

and admit you made an incorrect choice in trying to get them to do what you want, and what your home needs; The punishment of denying them the time that has previously been one of family togetherness does not fit the expectation.

What you can do is discuss with them short-term goals on getting what you expect to be done, and from that you and your wife figure out punishments that are realistic and fit the objectives/goals not met. Short-term goals with reasonable time lines (two weeks is a long time for a 9-year old) and negative consequences that are appropriate for the unheeded request/expectation is paramount in setting workable family parameters. It may be helpful to keep in mind that all actions have consequences, both positive and negative. It's up to you and your wife to decide what those consequences will be. Positive consequences can be as simple as setting aside a day that is just for that one child or allowing a bonus time for having friends over.

Good luck! If you take the time, let it be known that your end expectations are non-negotiable, and they get to have input as to how to meet same, this can be a win for all the family.

BTW--Charts/calendars for each child with expectations and finish dates that they are responsible for placing note, a mark (positive or negative), and/or stickers can go a long way in teaching the steps to ownership of action.

[LostinVA]

124. Agreed -- changing tack is not "backing down"

Good grief, some of the posts on this thread are VERY harsh. parents can say they were wrong... "not backing down"? Come on, people. Being a parent is all about learning from mistakes.

i agree with the poster up thread who mentioned Jo Frost - Supernanny. This is as much your fault as the kids... things don't happen in a vacuum. You need a sit down, maybe even with a grandparent mediator, and need to learn mutual respect for each other. You need to discipline them, not punishment.

their rooms? tell your daughter no food, then just keep the door shut. Not a big deal.

Doing the Christmas thing is a really bad idea. Using a happy family time as the leverage in punishment isn't good.

[China_cat]

47. Doesn't Santa leave coal for the naughty?

See if you can find a couple lumps. While it may seem harsh, the fact that you would not make an empty threat will make more of an impression than anything else.

[ScreamingMeemie]

52. Nicole, my daughter, says that's cruel...and she would know.

*wink* *wink*


Anyway, here is her advice in her own typing...take it away Nicole:

Christmas (or HOLIDAYS) are a time for reconciliation not a time for punishment. Punishments issued should be related to the wrongdoings, such as no soda (for the half liter incident). My brother and I , although we are eight years apart, are constantly fighting and such but our parents ground us and take away everyday priveleges that we cannot live without like T.V. Anyway my point is Christmas equals love, and happiness and warm fuzzy feelings and being at odds with your wife and children, who won't be children forever, isn't worth it. Take it from me you'll feel guilty and that REALLY SUCKS!!!! (ask my mom) Good Luck!!! and Happy Christmas (HOLIDAYS)
~Nicole :dilemma:

[Shell Beau]

53. Very well put Nicole!!

Looks like Mrs. Grumpy is doing a fine job!! :bounce:

[ScreamingMeemie]

61. Note how she says they still fight "all the time"....

;) :hi:

[Shell Beau]

68. It would almost be abnormal if they didn't. I remember

all too well my brothers and me fighting over everything!!

[ScreamingMeemie]

69. Right after she typed that she got into a fight with her brother over...

...Lucky Charms. A hair pulling battle over cereal...:eyes:

[Shell Beau]

70. Haha! Typical siblings!!

:) They will be best friends one day!

[Xithras]

89. *sigh* Well put.

Nobody ever told me that being a dad was going to be this hard. Argh!

Nicole, do you see Christmas presents as a reward for behaving well, or as something that all kids should get irregardless? As a parent I want to give my kids wonderful presents every year, but I was raised to believe that Christmas presents were a reward for being a good person all year. Do kids even look at it that way anymore?

[miss_american_pie]

108. Ah, there's your way out of your threat

if you decide you want to change your mind.

You mentioned your religion upthread. Sit them down and tell them you lost track of the true meaning of Christmas, then equate giving them gifts to God giving humanity the gift of his son. Then spell out exactly what consequences you will enforce for inappropriate behavior.

Or not, just thought of a way you could save face if you still want to give them the presents.

[ScreamingMeemie]

114. I cannot answer for her and she's sleeping but I'll show this to her

tomorrow. I know how you feel. But, are you looking at the whole picture? Are your kids very good students? Are they kind to their friends and relatives? Sometimes our kids take all their angst (and laziness) out on us...and we get so wrapped up in being angry ( I am guilty of this ALL the time) that we fail to see all the GOOD things that they are. Xithras, my heart goes out to you. It's a rotten spot to be in. :hug:

[Rabrrrrrr]

56. You still have a chance to save face, though - Christmas is still

more than a week away.

Set them down, tell them the two weeks are up and they failed miserably. But, because the spirit of the season is Jesus, and Jesus is all about second chances and reconciliation and forgiveness, they are getting another chance.

Have them watch you remove all presents for them from the house, and take them away - and let them know that, if they blow their chance this time, those presents aren't coming back.

Let them know you are serious, adnthat they have 9 days (or whatever the hell it is) to get their shit together and start showing some respect.

You worked yourself into an awful corner with wanting to take away Chrsitmas presents - which is not the best choice of punishment you could have made - but, as we say on Vulcan, 'There are always....possibilities'.

And you can save face.

I think if you give them chance number 2, and they see the presents going away, they'll get pretty serious in the next 1.4 weeks.

[bleedingheart]

57. First ...you asked them to behave for two weeks???

how about asking them to behave all the time?...or is this some sort of growth spurt issue I have to look forward too???/ egads...

I have to say that using the Christmas holiday to punish someone is over the top...but if your kids are as bad as you say I would not give them anything. You have to stand by your word...there are consequences to actions.

In fact, I would recommend in addition that you start taking away privileges and items that they do cherish, the ipod, the computer, etc...all would have new passwords or disappear for a while.

I don't give my kids that much leeway...and they know that. If my daughter doesn't clean her room, I take all the selected toys she has been playing with as of that time period and they disappear for a while until she gets the message....it works very very quickly and they don't get back the stuff immediately...only after 24 hours have elapsed....leaves a longer lasting impression.

They key is for parents to be mean enough that kids band together in friendship in order to help one another to keep the parents from getting crazier...I know that my mother was a strict disciplinarian...and boy...my brother and I figured out early how to keep her happy.

[DS1]

62. Let's just say I hope you like retirement homes

[Xithras]

91. ROFL! Only the ones with cute nurses!

n/t

[Divameow77]

65. Let them open their presents

then ground them from them.

[lakemonster11]

120. That's brilliant.

[Love Bug]

66. Yes

If you take their Christmas away, I can guarantee that when they are 90 years old, they will be telling their great-grandchildren about the time their dad took away Christmas. They probably won't even remember what it was about their behavior that provoked you to do it, but they will still feel the hurt.

As a parent who had my share of struggles with mine when she was a teen, I can appreciate your frustration and will not judge you. Please consider some of the good advice posted here. Resorting to such a drastic measure such as cancelling Christmas will only cause deep anger in your kids. And if their behavior doesn't improve -- then what? How then can you raise the stakes?

[Lars39]

67. Some thoughts...

Is it possible to put everything away in their rooms? They might need help weeding out what is no longer wanted or needed. Not everyone is born knowing how to manage the stuff we wind up accumulating, especially at age 9 and 12. At that age, unless you've really been on the stick from a very young age teaching them how to pick up, clean and organize, they might not know how. Some parents take it for granted that kids just 'know', but parenting is really a constant teaching process that seems to never let up until they leave as "adults". You've issued commands with out supervision. Your hands-on leadership is needed. Kids need repetition and structure. They may roll their eyes, but the message does get absorbed a little bit more each time. And for some people it takes longer than 30 days to develop a habit.

Signed,
Survived :)

[LeftyMom]

78. You made the decision when you laid down the ultamatum

At this point, your choice is whether to follow through with your threat. If you want to get the kids to listen and obey, that's got to be automatic.

The bottom line: You backed yourself into this corner when you laid down the ultamatum and at this point you really have to follow through. Buy yourself an ipod and some noise canceling headphones, because they'll probably be howling about it until Easter. Most importantly you need to get your wife on the same page before the Santa no-shows, because the two of you need to present a united front.

FWIW, my Dad did the same thing once, for pretty much the same reasons. My sister and I came out okay anyhow. Your kids will, too.

PS I'd consider putting the gift money aside and letting the kids earn it back over the next year, with very concrete goals set to do so (maybe even a chore chart thing, really they should be too old for that but it sounds like they need to go back to preschool in terms of cooperation and cleaning up after themselves.) If you decide to do that, keep it under your hat for a few weeks and let them know in mid-January, so it looks like you being a nice and reasonable guy who's giving them a second chance, rather than you backing down and moving the goal post.

[LostinVA]

125. He doesn't have to follow through

he can sit them down and teach a lesson about ultimatums: that they are usually the wrong way to do. There have been some great suggestions for punishment on this thread, but not Christmas.

OP, you say you're Catholic, right? So you're religious. Please, do not use the time of the celebration of Jesus' birth to punish your kids... because that's what it is. And gifts? It's not just something they "expect," it's a time they love to celebrate with you.

I had a harsh dad who almost EVERY year used Christmas to pick fights with my mom ot us kids, take toys away after we opened them because he thought we were "rude" to his sociopath mom, etc. It took am long time for me to like Christmas again, and it has been very difficult to forgive my dad, even almost 30 years later.

[LeftyMom]

138. I disagree

They can still have Christmas. Have a nice dinner, go to mass, etc. But there's no reason to do anything extra for badly behaved children and gifts are always extra.

I really object to the idea that seems to back some of the objections on this thread- that gifts are some sort of minimum standard of care. It's not as if he's saying he won't feed the kids or he's sending them to school with no shoes, only that after warning them he has no desire to reward thier inappropriate behavior. I think that's perfectly fair and having said he'd do it, I think he's left himself little choice if he wishes to maintain order in his home.

[Maddy McCall]

83. No. Do not do it. You are expecting children to behave as adults....

and to be self-motivated. That's not the way it is, though. Being a parent means having to stay on their tails to get them to do what they need to do.

Taking Christmas away is brutal. I would hate to be in your home on Christmas eve and morning.

Don't your kids get allowances? Or privileges? You'd do better to suspend those things until they are doing what they need to do.

You may see a table that needs to be dusted, but a 9-year-old kid doesnt' see that. Why not begin by making a chart that has weekly duties for each child delegated on it. Expecting them to just know what to do is unrealistic. And, you should remind them tonight of your threat, and tell them that tomorrow morning, the two weeks is over, and they know what the consequences are. I bet they'll clean their rooms.

[Deja Q]

96. I respectfully disagree.

How else do they learn to grow up?

Case in point is myself... They were good people, my parents. 'Are', actually. I was the bad child.

And I was slow to learn, slow to realize, and for the parts of my childhood that weren't terrorized by others, my own indolence is why I wish I was a better person.

But nobody knew of Asperger's Syndrome back then either.

Life isn't fair. And mistakes and even misunderstandings and accidents do happen. And I, aged 33, have only BEGUN to understand reality.

But at least I learned. And needn't die in happy bliss. (don't worry, I won't pop off tomorrow. I refer to the impending national debt bubble Crash, due within the next 4 to 18 months...)

[Maddy McCall]

99. Sorry to disagree with you, but ruining the whole family's christmas...

when there are much better ways to teach lessons does not make sense to me.

Hypno, you need to let go of anything you've done in the past. You have Aspergers. You made mistakes--we all do. But you should not still be beating yourself up over past mistakes.

I say this with great affection for you, as you know you are a favorite guy of mine. :hug: :loveya:

[skygazer]

86. My opinion is that it's a lot of work being a parent

Your kids are walking all over you and you're at the end of your rope. Understandable - we all go through that at some point.

You need to choose your battles. If the rooms are really that important to you, you may have to physically stand in there and supervise the cleaning process rather than tell them to do it and expect it to get done. "Okay, now pick up all that dirty laundry and put it in the hamper. Okay, now pick up those books and put them in the bookcase. Okay, now the Legos. Now the HotWheels". Etc. Give them no choice because you're overseeing the whole thing. Pain in the ass? You betcha.

Or you can leave that battle. When I was about that age, my room looked like a nuclear waste site. My dad and I used to fight constantly about it - it was a huge thorn of contention. My wise stepmother finally stepped in and suggested we make a rule - I could have my room however I wanted it but I had to keep the door closed at all times so I wasn't inflicting my mess on them. You know what? Within a few months, I'd cleaned it and I kept it pretty well clean after that. I just wanted some authority over my own space. You might consider that.

As for helping around the house, they should have specific chores that they're expected to do. Don't expect them to do them on their own. Remind them every day. "Did you put the dishes away? Did you take out the garbage?" Whatever it is they need to do. And talk to them seriously about their role in the family - they're old enough to understand that a family is in it together. Also, perhaps you should put limits on what they can help themselves to - if they're going to behave like small children, perhaps they should have to ask for soda or snacks rather than help themselves. Or perhaps limit their play areas to their rooms if they don't pick up after themselves in the rest of the house. And let them know just why you're doing that. Just a thought.

As for Christmas, I think you chose an unwise way to deal with this. But since you have chosen it, I think you have to follow through at least to some extent. You've gotten some good suggestions about that.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

94. It's important to emphasize that you have to be SPECIFIC with kids

When I was in my early teens and my brothers were younger, our mom used to get mad at us when she was trying to get ready for people coming over for dinner.

She'd say, "Why aren't you helping me? You're just sitting around and doing nothing!"

From our point of view, she seemed to be handling it just fine. So I'd say, "Tell me what to do."

And she'd say, "I shouldn't have to tell you. Just look around and ask yourself what needs to be done."

But seriously, what did I know? I was twelve or thirteen years old. My mom has always been a conscientious housekeeper, and on an ordinary day, our house looked better than most people's. If she had said, "Run the vacuum cleaner" or "Set the table and fill the water glasses" or "Take out the trash," I would have done it.

But a plain, "Help me out!" was meaningless to me.

If you want kids to do something, you have to break it down into discrete steps.

[Maddy McCall]

101. EXACTLY.

[JohnnyCougar]

113. LOL...that sounds like my roommate right now.

When we first moved in, all three of us decided that we weren't going to be food Nazis, and that the majority of the food we got would be community food, as we would all go shopping about equally. Well my one roommate Tom never sent shopping. I told him once that I'm fine with him having something of mine once and a while, but he has to replace it or get his own food eventually. But after three months went by, he was eating everything of mine. So I had to specifically say "I don't want you eating any of my food anymore, no matter what" in a not so nice tone.

Now I am relieved that he actually goes out and buys his own food every night. If you make rules, they can't have any loopholes. Some people (children and my roommate) can't be expected to be responsible and honest enough to keep promises. So don't rely on a promise that they will clean their rooms. Set specific punishments that are reasonable enough to always follow through upon.

[Ariana Celeste]

88. This is what my mom did to me and my siblings.

We got caught one year looking at what she bought us in it's not-so-hidden spot in her room. Me and my brother had done the same thing a couple times in the past, and we knew what we were doing. However, our step-sister was just not so... smart about it. She left something sitting out after she had decided to go look again, without us, to make sure she didn't fuck up.

This was a couple weeks before Christmas. My mom got home and saw what was sitting out. She was really upset, really upset. She fought back tears and tried to just appear angry as she set everything she had bought on the table. She explained how hard she had worked to get us more that year then other years previous. She explained how hard she had worked to make that year very special. And then told us that we weren't going to do anything special that year. There's all the gifts, you get to stare at them until Christmas, then you can just take them to your rooms.

Made us feel like a bunch of assholes for hurting our mom, but it taught us a lesson.

So. Not entirely related. But there are other ways then taking the gifts away. Shit I still get a tear in my eye today just thinking about how hurt my mom was.

[Left Is Write]

93. I hurt my mom one Christmas too, and I still feel bad 24 years later.

I was 15. I wanted a pair of Zena jeans soooooooooooo much I could taste it. There was one box under the tree that I was just certain held a pair of Zena jeans. I saved it to open last.

Inside was a duffel bag. I was going on a choir tour trip, leaving the day after Christmas, and my mother had made the duffel bag for me to take along. It was made of denim with gingham side pockets. She must have worked on it while I was at school - I never had a clue.

I looked at that duffel bag and started to cry. Worse, I got up and ran to my room, slamming the door. I cried some more.

You know, I'm still feeling shame now just telling you this story! Here was my mother's lovingly handmade gift to me, and I reacted like a selfish, self-centered little brat.

Of course, as I grew and matured, I realized that my parents likely could not afford to give me the jeans I wanted. What's funny also is that I still have that duffel bag Mom made for me. Zena jeans? Would have been gone before the 80s were through.

I apologized to her one year, maybe 15 or so years ago. She said she didn't remember the incident, but that she understood. Kids will act like kids, and sometimes it takes time and maturity to see their own behavior through another's eyes.

(My favorite gifts these days are the quilts my mother makes. I often hope for another one on a birthday or Christmas!)

[Deja Q]

98. Thank you for sharing.

You are not alone.

But we were kids. And we've grown up the best we could.

:hug:

[Scooter24]

90. You could try

letting them open it Christmas morning, but tell them that they can't play with the gifts until their behavior shapes up.

It gives them an incentive to behave and doesn't totally kill the holiday. :)

[Conan_The_Barbarian]

92. Well since we all know

That Santa doesn't exist (http://www.main.com/~anns/other/humor/physicsofsanta.html) I would say it's your job to enforce the creed of naughty or nice. If you have presents under the tree for them already simply bring them to the tree and remind them of the deal you made. Then procede by taking one gift from each and say that you will be returning them. That should get their attention.

[Raine]

97. Last year my freeper neighbor

got sore at his kids, Christmas day he chopped every branch off the Christmas tree and set it on his front lawn. It literally made me sick to see that. :puke: I guess that is a Christmas the family will never forget. :-(

[SOteric]

102. Personally, I think Christmas giving ought to be done out of love

and a desire to give only, and should never be considered a reward or a punishment.

When we were growing up my parents gave us an allowance befitting our ages and incremental raises as our maturity and responsibilities grew. The allowance was not a token, we actually had to earn it. If it was my responsibility to help with the dishes two nights a week and clean my room, and I hadn't done that. No allowance. If I'd done it, but poorly and with attitude, a reduced allowance was given. (There was a printed list of penalty offenses and their exact fine; i.e. incidents of backtalk is an automatic x dollar deduction.) Typically, allowances were distributed on Saturday afternoon at 1:00 p.m. But it was not out of the question for Dad to announce that I wouldn't be receiving an allowance owing to failure to clean my room and then give me a two hour extension to get the job done.

Any serious behavioural infraction could result in an ongoing fine. Any good behaviours would be rewarded with a bonus.

Any toys or items we were lusting after we were required to save for out of our allowance, though we could negotiate for extra chores to speed up the process. Often, when we'd reached the half way mark in our saving, the folks would kick in the other half.

This was good in a lot of ways. It helped to modify our behaviour, but it also taught us a great deal about fiscal responsibility and the realities of the workplace.

[mac56]

103. My mom once threatened to take our Christmas presents

and give them to the Salvation Army.

Six kids in the family, barely had two nickels to rub together. Not a lot of presents, but those that were there were the focal points of our kid universe. I'd fight, squabble, spar with my sisters regularly. Partially out of adolescence, partially out of Christmas vacation boredom, partially out of heightened arousal and excitement. And being cooped up indoors in northern Minnesota in December.

In any case, my mom snapped one day near Christmas. Really lost it. Told us all we were rotten kids for fighting, and she was going to haul all our presents to the Salvation Army. In retrospect I realize that lots of the reasons we were acting out were true for Mom too.

Off we all went to our rooms, sobbing. Slowly we emerged from our rooms and saw the presents still there. But that was an excruciating several days between then and Christmas. We all checked every day to see whether the presents would suddenly disappear.

They were all there on Christmas morning. Honestly, I think my mom forgot her threat not long after she made it. But it's forty years later, and I remember it vividly.

My advice? Don't do it. Find some other motivator. Christmas shouldn't be snatched away from a kid for a reason like this.

[Raine]

106. I agree

if you take away Christmas it is going to be something that is carried with the person for life, a hurtful memory that will last a lifetime. :cry:

[Hypatia82]

104. First off drop the confrontations...

I mean really, what does it matter how the kids keep their room? As for everything else, why be confrontational when there's other ways to handle it? And yes taking away Christmas would be cruel especially for something as stupid as chores.

[Pithlet]

105. Try one of the alternatives suggested in this thread.

Since you already gave the ultimatum, you can't back out entirely. But, I think you should use one of the variations suggested in this thread. The memories of their bad behavior will fade, but they will remember this. And you'll likely feel guilty about it. They'll turn out okay anyway, as has been said in this thread, so if you decide to go through with it, it isn't the worst thing a parent can do. But, I don't think it will do anything to solve any problems long term, so it isn't worth the long term heartache. :hug: to you. Parenting is tough.

[Raine]

107. I think it would be cruel

and the memory that will stay with them forever. Doing that won't make them better it will instill apprehension about every Christmas from now on. 50 years from now they will remember the worst Christmas they ever had, it will overshadow all the good ones. :-(

[flordehinojos]

109. although you don't have to answer, i wonder what you have to gain bytaking

the gifts away from the kids...when i wonder if perhaps some good old fashioned talking to, and some good warm forgiving father may do more for them than the taking of the gifts away.

[I Have A Dream]

110. I have no children, but I have 3 nieces. I told them that I'd...

take each of them on an international trip when they turned 16. The only thing required of them was to write a 2-3 page report on the country/countries where we were going. It wasn't going to be graded or anything, but, in my eyes, it was their investment in the trip. Getting the report from the oldest one was difficult, but when I received it, it was a decent report on Paris & London. Getting the report from my middle niece was extremely difficult; I got it on the day of my cut-off date that I had given her. I'm sure that it was mostly copied from the encyclopedia, but I at least received a report on Ireland. My youngest niece never gave me a report even though I accommodated her as much as I could in terms of time. Because she didn't get the report to me, I didn't take her on my trip to England. I still went on the trip and I felt bad about her not being there with me, but I'm glad that I made the decision that I made. My niece was probably not happy with me, but she couldn't say that I didn't warn her. One thing that I do know is that she believes me when I say something. (This was about 6 years ago.)

I can't tell you what to do, but I thought that my story might add something to help you with your decision-making process.

[Redstone]

111. Boy, was THAT a stupid thing to do. Now your choices are:

1) Back down, and be guilty of making a threat that you didn't carry out, which weakens your authority by a whole lot.

2) Carry through with your threat, and guarantee that your kids resent you forever. Our neighbor put coal into one of her son's stocking one year, and regretted seeing the look on his face for the rest of her life.

That was an extraordinarily dumb ultimatum. I wish you the best of luck in making the best of having said something so idiotic.

Clarification: I am not saying that you are stupid, just that you did a stupid thing. Rule #1 for parents: Never, ever make a threat that either (1) you're not going to carry out, or (2) you'll wish you hadn't carried out if you did.

Redstone

[Metta]

112. You're in a tough spot.

If you don't follow through, you undermine yourself as an authority in your family. If you do follow through, you'll probably be scape goated galore and I suspect everyone will up the ante in their acting out.

Are you and your wife on the same page as far as disciplining the kids? Somewhere along the line, the kids have learned/ you and your wife have taught them that they don't have to listen to you.

I say hold the presents and put the kids on a behavior modification schedule. Let them earn them back along with everything else they have come to expect. If you don't know how to do this, there are ready resources usually in your community for this, I suspect.

Good luck.

[Jed Dilligan]

115. Don't take Xmas away, take their rooms away.

Make them sleep together in the living room until the rooms are clean and the fighting's history. I bet that'll solve your problem fast!

[TrogL]

116. Depends how you treat Christmas

If Christmas is about giving gifts as part of the Christmas tradition established by the Wise Men (and various others) then don't.

If Christmas is about Santa Claus, go for it.

[GrpCaptMandrake]

117. How about this?

Tell 'em straight up that you've reconsidered your ultimatum. Tell 'em they'll have their Christmas. Also tell them you're backing off on the issue of having them clean their rooms.

Instead, on Christmas Day, take them and help out at a soup kitchen. Don't let them open their presents until afterward.

As to the bedrooms, patiently explain that you'll be cleaning it. And that you will throw away *everything* that's not in its place. Favorite doll? On the floor? Sorry. Gameboy? Outta here. Trash bag city. Then DO it. That's the important part.

Or you could take the advice of Dr. James Dobson of "Focus on the Family" and beat them "until they cry real tears."

Sorry. Couldn't resis that last.

Merry Christmas and good luck.

[regnaD kciN]

118. Please don't do this...

It was only last year that everyone here was talking about the news story of the Texas dad who "took away Christmas" for his "bad children" and sold their would-be gifts on eBay, with proceeds going toward a new heater for their fundie church.

Most of us here thought that was incredibly cruel. I never thought I'd see a DUer contemplating the same thing.

Even if the shock of such an action makes them "clean up their act" (and I doubt they will), the main thing they'll take from this, long-term, is a feeling of sadness that will come back every year at this time, even long after they've moved away and have families of their own.

You don't want to do that to them -- or yourself.

[LostinVA]

126. I thought of that story when I saw this thread...

[Xithras]

121. ***FOLLOW UP*** Here's what we're doing.

First, thank you everyone for your suggestions. I got far more feedback here than I ever expected and spent a good part of the evening yesterday trying to figure out which advice to take. After discussing it with my wife, we combined a few of the suggestions and came up with a rather creative solution to the issue.

My kids have been bugging me for years to celebrate Christmas like "normal" kids and put the tree up ahead of time. I've been resisting for years because putting the tree up on Christmas Eve has always been a family tradition, but I'm relenting this year...they get a tree tonight. Underneath that tree I am placing one lump of coal (wrapped in cellophane, with a name tag and pretty bow on top) for each gift they would have otherwise received on Christmas day. Between now and Christmas they have the opportunity to redeem each lump of coal for a "good deed". If they do something exceptionally good or nice, they can bring us a lump and ask to trade it for a gift. If they spend an entire day behaving themselves...being helpful all day and not arguing at all...they can also redeem a lump before they go to bed. If any of the gifts are unredeemed by Christmas morning, we'll be taking them to the local womens shelter to give to the kids there.

My kids loved the idea because it turned it into a contest. I like the idea because it shifts the focus of the whole situation...instead of "dad taking away Christmas", it's become "kids earning Christmas". They have a tangible goal (trade X lumps for presents) and a clear understanding of what they need to do if they want their presents. If they do one good thing, they get one gift. If they do more, they get more gifts. It's entirely up to them to determine how many presents they want.

[tigereye]

122. that is so wonderful!

sounds like a great solution! Good for you guys. :woohoo:

[I Have A Dream]

127. Sounds like a really good compromise! n/t

[Whoa_Nelly]

128. OK...now that you've made your decisons re: Christmas...

How are you going to handle the same problems the rest of the coming year?

:popcorn:

[Xithras]

134. Chore schedules will be tied to rewards.

Also inspired by posts to this thread, by the way. Playing on the computer will be tied to doing dishes twice a week. If they don't do the dishes (which really consists of rinsing them and loading the dishwasher), they lose their computer privledges for a week. Not cleaning their bedrooms will cost them television. We're simply going to create these rules and let them live with them. If they don't want to clean their rooms, we're not going to argue with them anymore but they won't be permitted to enjoy the reward that goes along with that job either.

I'm not sure how effective it will be, but what I'm dong now isn't working so it's worth a try.

[Bridget Burke]

131. Good idea!

They ought to get the message. But they can still have a good Christmas if they play the game.

[CatBoreal]

137. I'm glad you've come up with a solution....

I would hate to see your kids lose their Christmas.

After the holidays, I'd sit the kids down and set up some clear expectations for them. Write them down and post them somewhere where they can see them every day. Add their expectations of you as well. Make sure to post the rules as well, like no food in the bedrooms (I can't believe your daughter doesn't mind the ants....EEEWWW!) and have everyone in the family sign the rules sheet. Also write out the consequences for breaking those rules. Sign and post them as well.

Good Luck and have a Merry Christmas.

[geniph]

130. The trouble is, you can't make idle threats

You shouldn't threaten something like that if you are not fully prepared to carry it out, WITH the full cooperation of your spouse. It just makes you seem like a blowhard and makes them even less likely to listen to threats in the future. For all her (manifold) faults as a parent, one thing my mother never did was make idle threats; if she said, "if you do that one more time, you're going to ride in the trunk" you knew perfectly well she'd stop the car and make you get in the trunk if you did that one more time. You did NOT fuck with my mother.

That being said, you need to do something even worse to your kids. You need to sit them down and have a serious talk with them, explaining that you're drastically scaling Christmas back because of their behavior. Then actually return all but one or two presents to the store or donate them to charity, and don't let the kids go to parties, etc., during the break. I'd still give them one or two things, but make it a damn quiet day, not a bacchanalia of candy-eating, package-ripping, and acting-out.

[LostinVA]

136. I really disagree

The OP didn't make an idle threat -- he's still laying down the law. There's nothing wrong with telling your kids that you overstepped -- just like they sometimes overstep. Ultimatums suck in any relationship -- they should only be used in extreme circumstances, and it sounds like the OP's kids are basically good kids -- just kids who have got their boundaries confused and need to relearn them, as well as Mom and Dad. He did the right thing, and is teaching them something, while also learning himself that discipline and punishment aren't the same thing. He also taught them an important lesson about family balance, communication, and flexibility in interpersonal relationships. Just make sure you all have a serious talk and ALL parties discuss where they can ALL do better. My mom has always treated my sister and I with great respect, even though she did not put up with any shenanigans from us. Unlike my Dad who did (and still does) yell and rant and trod all over everyone's feelings and rights.

Great lesson for the kids, Dad! I'm proud of you.

[hedgehog]

132. Please consider what I said upthread

Maybe I'm seeing this though the lenses of my own experience and making too much of it, but maybe not. You said your kids were real good until recently. Your daughter may be struggling with pain that you can't see, and lashing out is her only way of asking for help. Do some research into adolescent depression/anxiety, talk to your doctor and talk to your daughter. We did, and our girl is doing great.