Why Are British Musicians So Much More Talented Than American Ones?

[THUNDER HANDS]

If you had to name the Top-10 rock and roll bands of all time, I'm sure more than 5 or 6 of them would be from England.

Beatles
Rolling Stones
The Who
Led Zeppelin, ect.

My question is, why are musical acts in Britan so much better than the one's that are home-grown right here in America?

And why, even in the odd chance that an American artist makes it big, does said artist have to go over to Britan first to be found and then come back home to cash in?

What's the deal with Britian, why are they so talented? Is it the British accents? Do they just lend themselves to song better than American accents do?

[theivoryqueen]

1. Cure, Strokes, Eisley, Sleater-Kinney, Sparrows, Reverend Horton Heat

Stevie Ray Vaughn.... more in a minute...

[Screaming Lord Byron]

5. Are you suggesting The Cure are American?

way off!

[Loonman]

6. Cure not American

Nor are the Sucks...I mean Strokes.....

[THUNDER HANDS]

12. the Strokes are American

They're from NY.

[Loonman]

14. That's too bad

Can we ship them to England?

[theivoryqueen]

7. Sorry SLB, my bad

[Screaming Lord Byron]

11. No problem. I'd add Elliot Smith, Janes Addiction, Yo La Tengo,

Pixies, Dinosaur Jr, Television, Talking Heads, Blondie the list is pretty endless.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

15. Flaming Lips, Mercury Rev, Doors, Funkadelic, Sly, Public Enemy...

[theivoryqueen]

17. Townes Van Zandt, Stan Ridgeway, They Might Be Giants,

Southern Culture on the Skids...

[Screaming Lord Byron]

20. not to mention entire genres - Blues, Jazz, C&W

[theivoryqueen]

25. Bluegrass and zydeco (sp?)

[PVnRT]

2. You say that as if it were a given fact

Look at who influenced all those British bands and get back to me.

By the way - they were black American blues artists, if you don't want to go look it up. Besides, I give you the three greatest singer-songwriters who ever lived - Bob Dylan, Johnny Cash, and Bruce Springsteen - all American.

And for all the good music to come out of Britain, they gave us Andrew Lloyd Weber, and NOTHING will atone for that.

[GOPisEvil]

3. Have you completely lost your mind?

Just who do you think was the original influence for the bands that you listed? Americans.

I think there's plenty of talent, and plenty of crap on both sides of the Atlantic.

[THUNDER HANDS]

10. who cares who influenced them

The point is who does the music better now, and who has been for the past 40 years.

And that's the English.

[PVnRT]

13. Who cares who influenced them?

Sounds like a cheap way of deflecting the argument, but go ahead and continue to do so, it's kind of endearing.

[THUNDER HANDS]

18. yeah...who cares, its pointless to argue over influences

When talking about who's more talented.

Sure there were a lot of great black R&B and Blues musicians that came out of America.

Like...decades ago.

I'd like to discuss what's been done in music the last 40 years. And starting with the arrival of the Beatles, the British have kicked America's ass consistently for years.

[wyldwolf]

86. I think it's pointless to argue over who is more talented...

... you have an opinion. I have an opinion. That is all.

[GOPisEvil]

23. Most of modern alternative rock is American.

Nirvana; Alice in Rehab, I mean, Chains; Soundgarden, et al...

[THUNDER HANDS]

29. Coldplay, Radiohead...ect....

tit for tat. We could do this all night.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

32. Sorry mate, you've walked into a minefield. America is The Source.

[THUNDER HANDS]

35. Aren't you canadian?

Go listen to your Nickleback and your Celion Dion and leave me alone. :D

[Screaming Lord Byron]

36. I've got Neil, Joni, Leonard and the Guess Who ready to kick your ass!

[THUNDER HANDS]

41. kick my ass? With what, a hockey puck?

The only thing less threatening than an angry Canadian is an angry Canadian who uses the Guess Who as a point of emphasis to how good his country's music is. :D

[Screaming Lord Byron]

45. Yeah, well next time I'll use Rush. Then you'll be shitting it!

[piece sine]

55. you took the keys from my strokes

The "Guess Who" indeed! And while the best female composer in pop music -- Miss Joni Mitchell -- was indeed technically born in Canada, the Bel Air, California, resident's entire career has been based upon the AMERICAN music scene. True, she keeps a stunning oceanfront stone lodge-house in Vancouver for getaways, but Joni's sterling career reflects substantially on American recording studios, our responsive audiences and our cultural impact (particulatly that of sourthern California.)

[Screaming Lord Byron]

56. I am defending America as the source y'know (while goofing around)

this was all my pitiful attempt at irony (hence the Guess Who). Neil Young doesn't count as Canadian any more also.

[Character Assassin]

42. Ugh! The Guess Who never kicked anyone's ass except their own

File under Bachman Turner Overdrive ;-)

[Screaming Lord Byron]

47. For awful Canuck nonsense, try Our Lady Peace.

Officially the worst band ever.

[Character Assassin]

54. And you have yet to pay reparations for Anne Murray!

[GOPisEvil]

38. REM, 10,000 Maniacs, etc....yeah we could go on all day.

THAT'S THE POINT!!!! You made the case that the English are better musicians, I am disproving that. Better or worse is subjective. I happen to think America and Britain crank out their fair share of good AND bad music.

Don't get me started on Canada though. ;-)

[Character Assassin]

4. Stupid question, simple answer: they're not.

Glad we could have this little chat.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

8. i disagree...Brit groups learned from american groups and R&B players

and it is flattering

[ScreamingMeemie]

9. All roads lead from Johnny Cash.

IMO

[Red_Storm]

43. All roads lead from American music

Blues, Jazz, Soul, Rock N Roll, R&B, etc ........


Would any of those British bands mentioned even exist or existed had it not been for American music and it's profound influence........

[XNASA]

16. When it comes to pop music, I'm a huge Anglophile. But....

I don't think that the Brits are better overall, in the long run.

For every John Lennon, there's a Bob Dylan.
For every Macca, there's a Brian Wilson.
For every Jimmy Page, there's a Jimi Hendryx.
For every Thom Yorke, there's a...............

Wait. I'll have to get back to you on that one.

[theivoryqueen]

21. Lou Reed?

[XNASA]

27. I was thinking more Wayne Coyne.

I'm sure that Thom himself would say either David Byrne or Michael Stipe.

[theivoryqueen]

33. gotta love Wayne

it's rare anyone from oklahoma is that cute! (Sorry!)

[THUNDER HANDS]

24. Jimi Hendrix had to make it in England first

And ask any big band now, like the White Stripes. They had to bust their chops in London before they could come and take America. England basically filters American music right now.

48. filters

If an American band has to go to England to get known, this is a comment on the industry not on the musicianship.
& maybe contains an answer.
I bet there are a lot of American bands on the same level as British bands that we've never even heard of because of the size of the United States and because of how much different media is now than it was 40 years ago when A.M. radio was so eclectic. England being so much smaller allows a breakthrough much more easily than in America. & when the great bands have appeared in America generally they come out of enclaves also (San Francisco, Seattle, Detroit)
You don't want examples from 40 years ago? Unfortunately, a lot of them will come from them because of how homogenized music has become since then.
top 10? I think these stand up on the same level as British bands

Hendrix
Dylan
Creedence
the Sonics
Sir Douglas Quintet
MC5


not recent enough?

Sonic Youth
Meat Puppets
Butthole Surfers
Nirvana
Flaming Lips
Beck
REM
Minutemen

& that's just for a start

[Robroy]

19. A Good Question

Could be a number of reasons:

1) Brits tend to be more perfectionists

2) A richer tradition in music

3) They're very good copycats. Much the Stone's and Beatles' early successes were drawn directly from the early blues in America, from the Mississippi deltas to Chicago, from the likes of Willie Dixon, Muddy Waters, Robert Johnson and even Taj Mahal.

But hey mate, it's only rock n'roll.

[Character Assassin]

39. Wrong on the first two accounts.

1. Americans are the perfectionists when it comes to actually learning and playing an instrument, and are rather less than popular as musicians in England because of this. Brits have a sort of 'just get up and do it' mentality, many Americans tend to try and be amateur equivalents of session aces.

2. America has a far, far richer and more varied history of music due to the immigration and the nature of our population demographics.

[OneBlueSky]

22. umm . . . ever hear of Louis Armstrong? . . .

Miles Davis?
Duke Ellington?
Ella Fitzgerald?

et cetera, et cetera, et cetera . . .

[theivoryqueen]

26. Bird

Totally true

[THUNDER HANDS]

28. I was referring to Rock and Roll, specifically

Of course, to make a point half of you guys have to resort to going back to the only original american music ever created. And go back decades upon decades to do it.

That should be your first hint that maybe American music has stalled a little in the past 50 years.

[Bake]

73. Only original American genre? WRONG!

Bluegrass. Purely American genre, although rooted in the Scottish and Irish dance music Bill Monroe heard. But bluegrass per se is the ONLY purely American genre.

Bake

[Rainbowreflect]

30. You are all so very misguided.

The greatest group of all time were neither British nor American.

ABBA! ;-)

[Screaming Lord Byron]

34. Nonsense. It's clearly Bachman Turner Overdrive.

From Winnipeg, the true home of modern music.

[Rainbowreflect]

37. I stand corrected.

:hi:

[Screaming Lord Byron]

40. That's OK, Just Taking Care of Business.

[supernova]

31. I don't know about more talent

in the UN than here in the gold ole USofA.

It does seem though, that Brit Bands of any critical note have a higher percentage of people who studied music formally in school. They're actually trained musicians.

Whereas, most of our folks who are famous (and any good) tend to be the self-taught variety.

Not saying one method is better than the other, just an interesting contrast.

[TrogL]

44. They actually take music lessons

and it's easier to get a good music education on that side of the puddle.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

46. Great art comes from suffering,

and British musicians have to eat British 'cuisine'. Blecch!

[Hell Hath No Fury]

49. More talented or more popular???

As mentioned by other posters, all those Brits you named -- every single one of them -- took/stole their musical cues from our American music traditions.

Those bands have incredible POPULARITY, but as far as talent goes, you can't tell me that any of those guys are as purely talented as the folks who originated the music.

If I have a choice between listening to the white boy imitation or the real deal, I'll take the real deal each and every time.

[MiddleRiverRefugee]

50. IN BRITAIN, IT'S OK TO BE A *&^%$# MUSICIAN

(ahem) sorry....

In Britain, you can be a musician and people will view you in that light, just as if you were a bricklayer or a carpenter or any other craftsperson.

In America, music is more or less a hobby - you have to have a 'legitimate' or 'day' job in order to be thought of as a viable citizen. Sad how my music counts for less than my daily grind in the bureaucracy.

Maybe it's just that I live in Washington DC where everyone asks you what you do, but this at least is my experience.

[GOPisEvil]

52. Move here to Austin.

Here you would be a musician first, and a wage slave to pay the bills. I'm in the habit of asking certain wait staff what band they're in. ;-)

[supernova]

53. Have to agree with you

In Britian and Europe, being an artist of any stripe is a much more acceptable career choice than here.

Here, if you're not punching a clock 9-5 5 days a week, you're not really "working".

[Red_Storm]

51. Beatles.......Stones....Who and Zeppelin.............

would not have picked up a guitar if it wasn't for ELVIS and Chuck Berry....Lennon, Page, etc have all acknowledeged that......The Beatles were singing I Want To Hold Your Hand until they discovered Bob Dylan's music.........

All roads lead from American Music

[THUNDER HANDS]

57. which still

Doesn't prove my theory that the Beatles, Zeppelin, the Stones, Who, ect are more talented than any equivilent four American bands.

You can't compare the Beatles to Chuck Berry and you can't compare the Stones to Louis Armstrong.

Just compare eras. In the era of the Beatles, the British were making better music. And every era since that, a case could be made that for every talented American band there was at least one or two that were more talented playing across the pond.

[Character Assassin]

59. You're talking about songwriting, not actual musicianship

In the era of the Beatles, the British were making better music.

The 'era' of the Beatles, being the 60's, included the Beach Boys, Jefferson Airplane, Bob Dylan, etc.... It's really a matter of taste, then.

And every era since that, a case could be made that for every talented American band there was at least one or two that were more talented playing across the pond.

You haven't yet made that case, especially in terms of musicianship, which was your orignal claim.

[Red_Storm]

60. I would say that Bob Dylan...............

a musician from the same era as all those groups except Zeppelin.......is as talented as all of them.......and he influenced all of them too.....Lennon said that The Beatles began to take songwriting seriously once they discovered his music......Townshend was asked how Dylan influenced him and he replied "That's like asking me how I was influenced by being born".....and the Stones changed the direction of their music in the late 60's due to Dylan's music at that time and I won't even mention all other groups and musicians that were also affected by Dylan as well as the musical forms and directions that Dylan spearheaded..............

So I would put up Dylan against your groups ......

[THUNDER HANDS]

62. the thing about Dylan is

For every great song Dylan ever wrote, he has 10 horrible one's that nobody remembers.

He went through a stretch..amost a 2 decade stretch...where he put out shit album after shit album until he got to Blood on the Tracks.

[Red_Storm]

65. You're entitled to your opinion but............

Your 1 to 10 ratio is a little off.......What "2 decade stretch of crap until Blood On The Tracks" are you talking about ?

From 1967 until 1975 (When Blood On Tracks was released)

Dylan made the following albums

The Basement Tapes ( made in 1967, the demos of the songs had a huge influence on musicians in America and England, the music was eventually released a few months after Blood On The Tracks)
John Wesley Harding
Nashville Skyline
New Morning
Pat Garret and Billy The Kid Soundtrack
Planet Waves


I don't think any of these albums are "shit" as you put it .......

[Screaming Lord Byron]

67. You do know Blood on the Tracks came out in 1975, right?

[Red_Storm]

68. also .......

Dylan is still around, still important, making great music, his last two albums, Time Out Of Mind and Love and Theft are masterpieces......Have the Stones or The Who made any great albums the last 5-10 years ?

[Red_Storm]

58. As much as I like and respect the music........

of many of the British groups mentioned.....it can't compare to the giants of American music...who infliuenced countless British musicians and groups...


Son House
Robert Johnson
Muddy Waters
Charlie Parker
Dizzy Gillespie
Duke Ellington
Miles Davis
ELVIS
Frank Sinatra
Chuck Berry
Hank Williams
James Brown
Bob Dylan
Jimi Hendrix


and on and on ...........

[TopesJunkie]

80. There is no early Beatles without Buddy Holly...

None whatsoever.

[GumboYaYa]

61. They aren't.

It's just that they were not so blinded by racism as to not be able to recognize the greatness of the American Blues musicians that gave rise to Rock n' Roll.

[4323Lopez]

63. one word

jazz

[ACK]

64. What a load of crap -- guy is stuck in the 60's and 70's and can't get out

If you got your silly ass off the classic rock stations for half a sec:

Chuck Berry

Little Richard

Bo Diddley

Buddy Holly

Bob Dylan

Jimi Hendrix

Jefferson Airplane

the Beach Boys (I hate that sh*t but I don't have to like it to recognize its greatness)

The Ramones

Talking Heads

Husker Du

The Minutemen

REM

Nirvana

Bad Religion

(Hell the whole entire punk scene -- Clash was the last great Brit punksters)

[Bake]

74. You mention Husker Du in the same post as Dylan and Hendrix???

Sheeeeeeeit!

The simple fact is, nobody in England or anywhere else for that matter would have had a single clue what to do with an electric guitar were it not for Jimi Hendrix.

Case closed. Go ahead, try to argue that one. I double-dog dare you.

Bake

75. Buddy Guy

... that would be my American argument. Hendrix himself said that Buddy Guy did it first.

also, Jeff Beck was doing some pretty strange things with the guitar before he heard Hendrix. Beck would probably agree with you though.
That's the funny thing about trying to decide stuff like this, there's always "proof" on both sides of the issue of taste.

[BlueJazz]

66. Interesting Question..MagicRat....

I do know from being a Musician and talking to (sometimes) even
famous players that Europeans think of Musicians in a totally different
light than the folks here.

When I played in France, not once...I repeat..Not once, did a person
ask me "What do you REALLY do as a job" when I would tell them that I played for a living.
Here in the USA, I used to hear that constantly.
My response was "Well, what do you do for a living,,,,a salesman?...No, No...I mean what do you REALLY do for a living"!
(Of course, they would get pissed off).

My point to all this is: If a person feels his "craft" is appreciated
and hence, is able to practice his craft on a day to day basis then
consequently his/her craft will improve.
If you have to work a 9 to 5 job every day, it's hard to become
proficient on your instrument.

Don't get me wrong, ...there are a lot of other factors but the advantage to play and practice your instrument every night does make
for a better player.

[mitchum]

69. That must be news to Howlin' Wolf

maybe you're just an anglophile who was raised on commercial rock swill

[KFC]

70. Ramones, Talking Heads, Iggy, BLACK FLAG

That said, I agree with your take. They have produced the best bands ever with a much smaller population.

But then there's Styx...

[NightTrain]

71. You're generalizing

Now, having said that, I will opine that what spawned British rock and roll permeated American culture, to a point at which we took it for granted. The British didn't have that advantage and perhaps appreciated our music more than we did.

That also would explain why American "roots" music--R&B, classic blues, rockabilly, gospel, classic jazz, and doo-wop, for example--has attained a far bigger fan base in Europe, Australia and even Japan than it has in the U.S.

Just a thought....

[0rganism]

72. Excuse me? Since when is classic rock the litmus for musicianship?

And even if it were, there are plenty of American rockers who'd be on that top 10 list, too.

Who do you think inspired the British rock scene? The Americans, especially the black bluesmen.

Muddy Waters. John Lee Hooker. Robert Johnson. B.B. King. Chuck Berry.

These are Titans, Elder Gods, the Great Old Ones of pop music.

[Red_Storm]

76. It isn't but there are people that think. ........

that a few classic rock dinosaurs somehow exemplify the superiority of british musicianship........


ALL ROADS LEAD FROM AMERICAN MUSIC



I really don't think any of those british groups would have even surfaced had it not been for the impact and influence of American music on them......

[NashVegas]

77. All Roads Lead from American Music?

Mmmmm, no I don't think so, unless you are confining yourself to rock.

Which the original post did. So I guess we win, hands down.

In the 1980s, I worked at a classic rock radio station (talk about hell...). Our top level core artists were: Beatles, Stones, Zep, Floyd, CSNY, Clapton, Dylan, the Who.

Well, maybe we don't win.

(Of the latter day great bands, where America dominates, the overwhelming majority are never going to have the massive staying power the above bands will. It doesn't matter how many great albums Flaming Lips put out, they will never have the mass consensus that cuts across gender and cultural lines the above have, due to the audience fragmentation of the 1980s. 70s and later rock music fans will have to accept that the odds of their favorite band being mentioned in the same breaths with Frank Sinatra, Louis Armstrong, Cole Porter, Benny Goodman, Bob Dylan just ain't going to happen. This goes for most post-1973 British rock, too.)

Anyways, as has been previously written, most of the top-named bands are indeed British. And were indeed operating under the influence of American blues. CSNY (half American) is the least blues-influenced of the group. Where the Beatles, Dylan & Zep (Zep more than the Beatles) stand out is they too allowed folk influences to creep in.

CSNY could have totally done it without blues. For every "Almost Cut My Hair," there are 5 "Judy Blue Eyes." And if you think all folk derives from Irish/Scots immigrants you need to go back and listen to Fairport Convention. Folk music's beginnings are not confined to the Appalachian immigrants, they stretch back 8-9 centuries. Bob Dylan could have done it without Chuck Berry, but he needed Robert Johnson. Zep would have been branded as wimps if they'd never broken out of "Bron Y Aur Stomp."

Generally I view American music vs the Brits to be pretty equivalent, but I will say this: I'd take Jeff Beck and his 3 (that's T-H-R-E-E) pedals vs Stevie Ray Vaughan and his tons o'gear and stage moves any day.

[Red_Storm]

83. If you read any of my posts...........

you would see I'm not confining the discussion to rock.......


All Roads Lead From American Music .....you don't think so ?


From which country did the Blues, Jazz, Rock n Roll, R&B, Country & Western, Soul, Gospel, come from ? and if none of these genres of American Music had existed, would there have still been groups like The Beatles, The Who, Stones and Zeppelin.............

[NashVegas]

85. I Have

There was music before Congo Square, there was music before the Appalachian howlers (the two geographical centers from which all non-red-peoples' American music are derived).

and if none of these genres of American Music had existed, would there have still been groups like The Beatles, The Who, Stones and Zeppelin.............

If their members were determined enough, absolutely. It just wouldn't have been rock they were making.

There have been and are fantastic groups all over the world making exciting music that doesn't owe a damn thing to American music. Ever hear of a guy called Nusrat, or Taraf de Haidouks, Muzsikás? How about King Sunny Ade? Philip Glass is American, and I've yet to hear anything in his repertoire that reflects American music traditions.

Getting the idea yet?

[NashVegas]

78. Well

I agree with you 100% that classic rock shouldn't be the litmus test for musicianship.

BUT

Although the "elder gods" are and were a wonderful, emotive influence, worship at their altar has led to the most restrictive form of music heard since Gregorian chants, and part of our culture has been strangled because of it.

[WilliamPitt]

79. You = on crack

Miles Davis
John Coltrane
Bird
Ornette Coleman
Dizzy Gillespie
Cannonball Adderly
Robert Johnson
Jimi Hendrix
John McLaughlin
Tre Anastasio
Jerry Garcia
Stevie Ray Vaughn
Bob Dylan
Arlo Guthrie
Buddy Guy
Junior Wells
BB King
Mahalia Jackson
Aretha Franklin
Joni Mitchell

Must I...I mean MUST I continue?

[Red_Storm]

82. Nope..........

the point has been made a few times over on this thread......

the list of American musicians that have influenced and inspired alot of British and other musicians/groups from all over the world is ENDLESS...........


ALL ROADS LEAD FROM AMERICAN MUSIC

[WilliamPitt]

84. Indeed.

[corarose]

81. I have to agree with you!

:kick:

[T Bone]

87. You mean like Tiny Tim ?

n/t

[Ellen Forradalom]

88. Two words: Art School

A lot of the bands of the previous generation got together in their publicly-funded universities. British art schools bred a lot of bands, from Pink Floyd to the Rezillos.