Women tell guys the truth don't call them nice.

[SIMPLYB1980]

I hope I don't get flamed for this but I need to get this off my chest. Let me start off by saying that I support womens rights. I'm pro choice, and have stood up for women I have seen abused by other men. My mother taught me to respect all women and I try to as best as I can. (I can't bring myself to respect any women like Ann Coulter.) Anyway, I don't date a lot because I've been hurt badly several times in the past, but I still take the time to look for love. My mother set me up with a date for one of the Doctors she works with over the weekend, actually I set myself up she just got her number. We talked a few times on the phone and decided to go out for dinner and a movie. I thought that we had a really good time. I avoided all the topics you avoid on a first date politics, religion, abortion ect. We talked about movies, music, sports, our family, and many other non controversial topics, and seemed to have a lot in common. We went to see Music and Lyrics which wouldn't have been my first pic, but actually it's a good movie. I did everything my mother raised me to do. I opened the doors for her, I paid for everything, no cussing (hard for me), and basically acted like a gentleman. We ended the date with a simple kiss, no tongue. I told her I would call her and she said O.K. We went out on Saturday so I gave her a call on Monday night to see how her day went. Now I get to the point of my post. Apparently we didn't have as good of a time as I thought we did. Now I don't expect a second date but I do expect honesty after I put my heart on the line. I also understand that it must be hard for a women to tell a man shes not interested, but it's not easy for us to ask you out either. Anyway, all she said was that we didn't make a connection, but I'm a "nice guy." That ladies is a total cop out. If you think I'm ugly tell me, If you think we have nothing in common tell me, at least tell me something constructive so I can try to work on that aspect of my character flaw. Buy just telling a guy he is "Nice" you are ripping his balls of and stomping on them. All it does is make him question every aspect of who he is as a man. So ladies if you don't like us tell us why, you may think that buy telling us we are "nice" you are saving us from the pain of the truth, but actually you are harming us just as badly as if you said you are the most hideous human being alive. I hope you don't think this post is about hurting women. I love the ladies, but I needed to get this out of my head.

[Buzz Clik]

1. Maybe she was being honest.

I've had plenty of dates with nice people who just didn't "make a connection."

[SharonAnn]

10. Would it accomplish anything if she said you are "too boring", or "too dumb" or

"too narcissistic", or "too tall", or "too short", or "too liberal", or "too conservative", or ???????

What would be the point? These are not things you can change, at least not as far as she's concerned.

And kindness is a good thing. Brutal truth is not necessary because it might be hurtful.

So, she said you're a "nice" person but obviously she doesn't want to see you again. That's that!

Keep looking.

BTW, if you had felt she was "too..." something, it might've been best to do the same thing. Tell she's a "nice" person.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. My husband told me that all the ladies

he used to date called him a "nice guy" but wasn't for them. He would understand your frustration. Anyway, we met when we were both 38, and have been very much in love and together for nearly 18 years now. I think patience pays off. Don't be discouraged!

[Mika]

4. Is he a nice guy?

Nothing wrong with being a nice guy, is there? :shrug:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

7. No, but niceness is a NECESSARY but not SUFFICIENT condition

Over the years I've figured out what attracts me (a keen, widely educated mind with an offbeat sense of humor and a kind attitude and a lack of pretentiousness--all else negotiable), and sad to say, most "nice guys" don't qualify. They're fine for a friendly conversation, but I find them boring over the long term, frankly, because they're so narrow.

[Mika]

9. Ok. Agreed. But, did you tell dates that they're boring or too narrow for you?

If one doesn't intend to continue the dating relationship, then why should one risk a bad reaction by the guy at his being told the truth (ugly, boring, shallow, etc).

[Lydia Leftcoast]

18. No, I just said that there was no chemistry

However, I think that more naive men, who have not experienced that chemistry, don't understand what it is, and therefore think that any woman who talks to them in a friendly manner should be willing to enter into a romantic relationship.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

69. Absolutely nothing wrong with being a nice guy

In fact, it was my prerequisite for a relationship. But kindly realize that even those who are nice guys may not share the same interests as the ladies who like them. I have a coworker who is a very nice guy. But he drinks alcohol, likes to go hunting, and is totally uninterested in music and intellectual and spiritual persuits. We get along great as co-workers and I admire the way he's raising his son as a single parent, but there is no way we'd ever get along as a couple, even if I were single, too.

I'm Muslim, and take my spirituality very seriously--that is the most important part of my life. I couldn't imagine living with a man who did not share that value and place equal importance on it. My husband does. He also likes music, books, dislikes hunting and doesn't drink alcohol. So you see, of two "nice guys" I know, one is right for me, while the other isn't.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

3. Sometimes there's nothing specific

or at least, nothing specific that the man can do anything about.

Look, it happens both ways. I've had men tell me, "You're wonderful, but you're just not for me."

Sometimes that's all there is to it. There's nothing wrong with the guy--there's just no chemistry on her end.

My advice is not to get emotionally wrapped up in a situation until and unless you see sparks fly. It's a definite level beyond talking about movies, music, sports, and families. I can talk in a friendly manner with all sorts of men that I would never dream of going out with, usually because they don't set off sparks in my brain. (For me, it's a certain kind of mentality that's attractive, not looks beyond minimum requirements for cleanliness.)

[Mika]

6. Good advice.

:thumbsup:


So.. he's a nice guy. That's great!

Now, time to move on.

[poverlay]

5. I second that. Being called nice with no other input is particularly emasculating. n/t

[Mika]

8. If one can't take the heat, then get outta the kitchen.

If you can't bear being called a nice guy, then try being a piece of shit (and see how far that gets ya ;) ).

[Bassic]

85. If the success rate of some assholes I know is any indication

they can get pretty far.


Better to stick to the niceness though.

[Sal Minella]

11. What the heck is this?

You think a woman should be eager to leap into the sack with any man she encounters so long as his B.O. is less than nauseating? If she declines, she's emasculating him?

This thread illustrates the difference between the sexes about as well as anything I've seen -- a human male hopes all women will find him sexually attractive (he has a LOT of little spermies ready to spread around) whereas a woman can crave social communication, friendship, close friendship, and love with a man whom she has no desire to bed (I think this is because the human female usually incubates only ONE zygote at a time, and when she "beds" somebody, her lizard brain is unconsciously aware she's potentially committing to an 18-year endeavor.) Some women enjoy having multiple partners, but I think most women are chary of sexual involvements with men perceived as less-than-suitable long-term mates/husbands/fathers.

If you're called "nice" it means some other female will probably consider you dating/bedding/husband/father material, so keep looking.

Look at the language -- a woman who sleeps around is called a slut -- a "round-heels" in the old days (easily tipped over onto her back). There's no equivalent linguistic insult for a man who sleeps around.

[SIMPLYB1980]

19. I never said anything like that.

Tell me in my post where I said that she should have been eager to "leap into the sack" with me. If you read my post I even said that I don't expect a second date.

[Sal Minella]

21. Sorry -- I was responding to "Poverlay", Post #5 --

Feeling "emasculated" because a woman doesn't want a second date is being way too overly sensitive, imho.

[poverlay]

22. I didn't say not getting a second date was emasculating, I said that being labeled "nice" as a

consolation prize was emasculating. If the only reason for not pursuing the relationship is that the man is "nice", the implication is that if he was less nice he would be more interesting. Most attributes considered "manly" do not fall into the "nice" category. Therefore, being penalized(not getting a second date) because he is "nice"(the only reason given) is tantamount to saying a man is not masculine enough. Women don't want to date a lapdog, and men don't want to feel like one. Balancing the need to be respectful and not be thought of as "nice" is very difficult for men.

[lukasahero]

25. Interesting

In reading this, I am seeing men and women approach the situation from entirely different perspectives.

When women tell a guy he's nice but she's not interested in him "that way", she's trying to boost his ego. She is trying to say some other woman is going to be lucky to find him.

But what the guys here are hearing is "nice" is the reason the woman doesn't want to date him.

So all this time while we thought we were building men up, we were, from their perspective, actually putting them down. No wonder guys think women only like "bad boys".

ETA - because you seem to think manly and nice are mutually exclusive, I would like to say that my husband is both the most masculine man I've ever known AND the nicest, kindest, gentlest... Masculine and manly are not really the same thing. A lot of women prefer masculine men to "manly" men.

[poverlay]

28. I really don't thing manly and nice are mutually exclusive. All I have to do to disprove that is to

look in the mirror!

Otherwise I completely agree with your observations.

[lukasahero]

29. "Most attributes considered "manly" do not fall into the "nice" category"

?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

30. Good point

I never thought of it that way, but you're probably right. We mean "nice" as in, "Hey, you're not what I'm looking for, but you'll be great for someone else." They hear it as, "I prefer macho jerks."

I can't help noticing that many men I met in England this past summer fell into the category of masculine but not macho. (I'm obviously not talking about the football hooligans and the like. Obviously, every country has its macho jerks.) There was nothing feminine about them, but they hadn't gotten the message that seems to have been imprinted on the average American male brain that being verbally skilled or having a broad range of interests is "gay." (In the pejorative way that the typical American middle class male means it. Frankly, I appreciate gay men for not feeling compelled to fit into the macho mold.)

[Radical Activist]

55. Yes.

Your first paragraph is it exactly.

I would add the related frustration for men who are decent human beings that treat women with respect, is that some women confuse arrogance with confidence. So a woman might see herself being attracted to confident men, while "nice" guys will think that woman is attracted to egotistical, arrogant assholes.

[rockymountaindem]

70. I like this thread

As a guy, it's helping me understand things. Also, compared to other threads on this topic before, there's a lot less yelling and sex-based bashing. In fact, there's none of that at all.

So, apparently when a woman says a man is nice, she doesn't mean that he's "too nice" for them, just that being nice is the only good thing she can say about him? That makes some sense to me, although I still feel that a lot of women (in my personal experience) stay with guys who aren't nice to them. Case in point, a good friend of mine who complains about her boyfriend all the time but who has kept up with a relationship for over a year in which one day she wants to strangle him and the next day everything's "just fine". From what she tells me about his behavior, I'm surprised she's still with him. I'm talking about a confident, extremely intelligent and outgoing young woman who has had plenty of other boyfriends and has no doubt in her own desireability.

The other day we were talking about another guy friend of hers, about whom she constantly raves. He's really smart, he's into all the same things as she is, he's always there for her, etc (and no, I'm not talking about myself in the third person :) ) I said, "why don't you dump your boyfriend and go out with him?" Her response: "he's too nice". I got kind of agitated and said words to the effect of "your boyfriend treats you like shit all the time, but this other guy who goes to dance classes with you and *draws pictures for you* all the time is 'to nice'... you're fucked up!" She explained to me that when she said "too nice" she meant that he was always trying to conform to her opinions in an attempt to please her, and that she couldn't have a real conversation with him because he immediately proclaims that she's right about everything and moves on, even when it's obvious he disagrees. That small exchange was a real eye-opener for me, and I can definately understand not wanting to be with someone who acts like an emotional and conversational doormat. I don't think I'll ever have that problem.

I think we should have more threads like this.

[XemaSab]

175. I have broken up with guys before

For being too passive. I want a guy who has his own opinions, dammit. :o

[smirkymonkey]

187. A lot of immature women (and men) will seem to go for the person

who is "unavailable" - either physically (attached to someone else, lives far away, etc.) or emotionally (a jerk, a cheat, etc.) until they eventually mature and decide they REALLY do want to be in a relationship that works, at which point they will stop finding the bad boy/bad girl so irresistably attractive.

There is also the issue of "manipulative" niceness - when people bend over backward to please you, not realizing that most people find this boring and even insulting (people know on some level when they are being manipulated.)

[Orrex]

31. I think that there's another interpretation

When a woman calls a man "nice," it can sound like a euphemism for a range of shortcomings real or imagined, no matter how benignly she intends it. Rather than accepting the compliment at face value, the man hears "so-and-so about you really bothers/offends/doesn't-interest me, but I don't want to admit that, so I'll say something pleasant instead because a pleasant lie is hardly a lie, is it?"

I grant that this is a lot to read into four little letters, but that's how the insecure male mind works sometimes. I recall in high school that I used to get the "you're like a brother to me" line fairly often, which is similarly off-putting when the man hopes for something other than a brother/sister relationship.

I think that the negative interpretation is especially likely when one is already fragile due to loss or prior rejection.

[NashVegas]

115. I Call It the "Inaudible 'But...'"

"He's nice, but ..."

In most cases, even the ones where we aren't looking for a Hell's Angel, it means (at least for me) "he just doesn't excite me."

Some of the most important posts in this thread are the ones who point out that you can't control how another person feels about you. Attraction is not a result of logic, yet for some reason we hit ourselves over the head looking for a logical reason why someone is not attracted to us.

[Wapsie B]

134. Exactly.

That's a hard lesson to learn. Very hard. And it still doesn't feel good when there's no there there between you and a woman. But knowing that it's either there or it's not should be a comfort to the male ego. It's harder to deal with if a guy's under the perception that other men can just go out and have women fawning over him; while he believes that it'll be a long time until he meets another woman who's even a remote possibility for dating. This goes way beyond the perception that all women are jerk-lovers. He sees himself as not being worthy. And that is not sexy at all.


Just my 2 cents............

[rockymountaindem]

67. Very perceptive n./t

[Bassic]

86. From my experience, it doesn't necessarily come off as THE reason

but if it's the only thing that she says, we usually take it to mean that indeed, something is lacking on the masculine side. The actual state of being nice is not the problem, it's what she chooses not to say that is. That's the perspective I had back then anyway.

[Patiod]

90. Lukasahero nailed it

Saying "you're nice" is her way of saying "I'm not breaking up/not sleeping with you because there's something inherently wrong with you -- I'm just not feeling it"

The biggest, toughest, most macho guy I ever dated was definitely the nicest - 6'4", handlebar mustache, roughest hockey player on the ice. Not a "bad boy" molecule in his body. Sweet as pie - didn't have anything to prove. He dumped me, not the other way around, and of course he was nice about it - "You're a great girl, but I'm not in love and I want to be in love."

[lukasahero]

91. Aw (not what you think)

" "You're a great girl, but I'm not in love and I want to be in love." " What a "nice" guy. Sorry you were on the receiving end of that, but it's sweet that's what he wanted.

[Patiod]

102. Least painful breakup ever

A perfect way to say exactly what he was feeling, and I had to respect that (I didn't end up torturing myself over it either).

We remained -- not friends, but comfortable around each other.

Later that year my sorority had an "ex-swap" party (we called it something else - I forget what) where we all invited 2-3 guys we had dated casually or were "just friends" with who we wouldn't mind letting our sisters get a crack at. (No one invited anyone where there was any major drama or any "bad boys" or head cases, though).

I invited him and he got scooped right up!

[raccoon]

97. Right on!

"So all this time while we thought we were building men up, we were, from their perspective, actually putting them down. No wonder guys think women only like "bad boys". "

I get so sick of seeing posts, or hearing guys complain the women only like "bad boys."

Some women DO prefer the bad boys, and if a guy says that, I wonder where is he finding these women, and/or why is he attracted to them.

[smirkymonkey]

186. Gee - I guess the next time I go on a date and I find that there is

no chemistry between us, I will just have to say "Thanks for everything, but you're a FLAMING ASSHAT so please don't call me again." :rofl:

I guess that will make them feel better than telling them you think they are nice. :shrug:

You are right though, some men just can't accept that you can actually like them and think they are a nice guy, and still not want to go to bed with them. Of course these are the same men who think that if you DO go to bed with them, you are a slut. Can't win.

[Sal Minella]

26. It's not either/or -- "interesting" is another layer needed, on top of "nice."

========================
the implication is that if he was less nice he would be more interesting.
========================
actually the implication is that if he had other qualities in addition to niceness, he would be more interesting.

[poverlay]

27. Agreed. n/t

[raccoon]

96. So maybe a woman should use another adjective instead of "nice?"

Can you suggest one that you think guys would think less offensive?

[freeplessinseattle]

23. this sure explains a lot, doesn't it?

goodness, I didn't realzie that "nice" was an insult and a feminine term. geez, guess since I'm attracted to nice men that's really my bi side showing.

If nice wasn't sexy, who would there be a KOEB and PFEB? Cheney's the opposite of nice and no one in thier right mind considers him sexy.

[SIMPLYB1980]

32. I'm sorry if you thought I was calling this a feminist term.

I don't care if a women is strong in fact I prefer it. I don't want a subservient women like Pickles.

[Zuiderelle]

152. Singular: Woman; Plural: Women

[SmokingJacket]

12. Okay, I'll be honest with you.

It sounds to me like you were trying really hard to BE nice! And not being yourself at all! You avoided all the controversial subjects... but also all the interesting ones. Why would you do that?

You shouldn't be surprised when you hide all your natural instincts behind a "nice" veneer, following your mother's (or whoever's) instructions, that you came across as nice but dull.

Women like a man with opinions and interests! You definitely have them, or you wouldn't be here on DU.

Here's my advice:

Don't rely on someone else setting you up. Sometimes it works, but hardly ever. Instead, pursue your interests and stay open to the women who share them. If you're political, get involved in local politics. But don't do it to pick up women; do it because you're interested. (Whenever I do something I don't care so much about, I never meet men. But when I'm doing something related to my art... I meet TONS of men.)

Be yourself!! If you curse a lot naturally, curse, for cripe's sake. Because if you pretend to be this non-cursing guy and want a long-term relationship, either you're going to shock her when after a while you start with the f-bombs or you're going to spend the whole relationship being a fake.

Looks are not *that* important to most women. Yes, it's what catches our eye, but personality, shared interests, and a sense of humor (that we share!) is more important. There are a handful of women out there who'd rather date a hot jerk than a kind, thoughtful fat guy with a sense of humor... but they're in minority. And you wouldn't like them anyway.

(Grooming DOES matter, though. A lot. I admit I haven't given certain guys a chance because of dirty hair, unwashed clothes, etc. It's like a sign of some kind of social problem. This is the one area where you should NOT be yourself if your natural self is a slob! It's the kiss of death.)

SO.... quit complaining and get involved in something you really enjoy. There is someone out there for you!!!! But you'll never find her if you sit at home, waiting for other people to make dates for you, and wondering why women don't like you.

[sandnsea]

47. Hmmm no response

You said what I was thinking, only much nicer. A man who isn't being himself and does the phony woman on a pedastal routine is a red flag for trouble of some sort. That's why women avoid these so-called 'nice guys', they aren't being real and that's scary in itself.

[Joe Chi Minh]

164. They would be asking themselves, "Who are you? What makes you tick?"

If you focus on a kind of laundry-list of dos and don'ts, as if they were the key to successfully courting women, did it not occur to you that you were presenting yourself to them almost as a cypher? Courting by numbers?

She's another person in this weird world of ours who could be great fun to socialise with, just like anyone else. Though she may make you drool, on another level.

Be yourself. Don't just study what she wants. How about you? Give and take doesn't stop just because she's the magical gender in your eyes. If anything it's more crucial than ever. She has to see you're a regular, flesh and blood, spontaneous human being, and not putting her on some misconceived pedestal. But not, as a matter of a policy that you are pursuing. It should arise spontaneously from your understanding.

Also, it may sound illogical (you'd think they'd be good authorities), but where courting is concerned, don't listen to your mother.

Well, Sandra said it much more economically.

[lildreamer316]

48. DING DING DING!!

We have a winner!!

You said it a lot nicer than I would have.

Sorry; I am convinced that men who act as the OP did have at best a warped and naive view of what women want and at worst a pathologically buried misogynistic attitude toward women.

If that offends you, OP, that's the risk I am taking. And believe me, I have had a lot of experience dealing with men who have problems relating to women.

YOU are not being honest with HER. And she sensed that. We like HONESTY above all,at least those of us with half a brain do. If a man is a straight-up asshole; ok. At least we know where he stands, and if we choose to get involved with him, we do so with our eyes wide open.

Don't get me wrong, there are lots of women who are not honest about who THEY are and what they want. If you are honest about yourself and take the above poster's advice (develop your own interests and personal self worth); you will be more likely to attract the kind of woman who IS honest about what she wants and is worth your time.

Make yourself worthy of what you want and you will attract that.

I hope you can stop the reaction you are having right now-stop being pissed at me and understand that I only say this to help you. As much as I can, that is. You can choose to believe me or not. No big deal.
You know that perception that women want a 'sensitive' man? Well; they want a confident man first. And yes, they want a man who is a man. We need to redefine what that means to us as a culture-but that's another discussion.

eta: damn I can't spell.

[patricia92243]

62. Best advice on this thread. Hope OP is listening, because your post says it all.

:)

[WilliamPitt]

89. Indeed

She didn't meet you. She met your representative, the PR guy we all deploy on dates to stand in our stead.

So whatever happened wasn't about you. It was about that PR guy. Fire him. ;)

[latebloomer]

182. I agree!

Don't hide your true personality-- the real you may be exactly what a woman is looking for.

Don't avoid subjects like politics or religion--if you have wide differences there it's best to find it out because it may be a deal-breaker. But it may attract her to you if she shares your beliefs.

And yeah, throw in a few curses if that's the way you usually speak. If she's gonna be shocked by that, she ain't the woman for you.

In short, be who you really are-- don't hide your true self behind a bland exterior. She's either gonna like you or she won't-- but she needs to have a sense of who you truly are. Don't pretend to be someone you aren't, and then be rejected because she doesn't like that fake person.

I know I liked my future husband a lot better when he revealed that he had a "bad boy" side to him-- just enough to be exciting!

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

13. I had a woman in my life...

Who I would call a best friend. Not romantically involved, although we did do the FB bit for a short time, but we remained best friends. Really close.

I saw her throw a few nice guys over the side, then flay herself over some guys who really, really needed a mudhole stomped in their asses. I asked her why she kept going back to such wastes of skin and gravity.

Her answer:

"Nice guys are boring. Bad boys are dangerous and exciting."

I keep thinking back to that whenever I get to pondering why I have not been involved with a woman in a long, long time. I have run into that many times(One woman who destroyed my heart told me, years later, she now appreciated what a wonderful person I was and how great our relationship was, after a long string of pricks. I still carry the scars from that one.) and it's a big reason why I just don't bother anymore. Fuck it. Life is too short.

Yes, men have a lot of work to do on their heads, but so do a shitload of women. Too bad we don't hear of that more often.

[Joe Chi Minh]

15. Not exactly on topic, but I like the "Sheisskopf" part of your name

very much. What's the derivation of the sonorous Tandalayo, though?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

20. Women who go for "bad boys" are basically immature

But "bad boys" are good at faking what a lot of women are looking for, namely, something out of the ordinary, something mentally stimulating and creative.

Similarly, I believe that the "bad girls" who always have a dozen guys drooling after them are good at faking what a lot of men are looking for, namely, the promise of freely available sex.

Unfortunately, both the "bad boys" and the "bad girls" enjoy emotionally entrapping and psychologically destroying good-hearted people of the opposite sex.

It's the men who complain the most about woman being attracted to the "bad boys," but in my experience, it's a trait found mostly among younger women.

Yet I can't tell you how many times over the years I've seen men of all ages practically an inch from insanity over the antics of a "bad girl." I want to knock their heads against the wall and say, "See all these wonderful women wandering around alone over here?"

We get over the "bad boy" attraction fairly soon, if we're at all psychologically healthy, and a woman who is middle-aged and giving an abuser or a serial adulterer "just one more chance" is NOT psychologically healthy. We may find the "bad boys" superficially charming when we're older, but we know enough to enjoy them from a distance.

But at any age, there is one thing we dislike, and that's BORING. To me, the typical American suburban guy is uninformed, stuck at age 15 when it comes to his sense of humor, obsessed with work and sports, afraid to express an opinion that deviates from what is presented in the mass media, afraid that his balls will drop off if he attends an arts event or otherwise steps out of his comfort zone, and convinced that he's a great catch because he's not abusive and owns a house.

[redqueen]

41. Exactly! Immature people of BOTH sexes go for the wrong things.

Why does this stereotype persist?

Criminy...

[Joe Chi Minh]

165. I'm afraid in young males, the gonads speak with a unique eloquence.

It's one of the crueller aspects of our nature all round. We can be blinded to the fact that the most important thing, actually, the only important thing in a marriage, imo, is friendship.

[Radical Activist]

56. After reading this

I see that you've already wrote something very close (but more fully explained) to what I was getting at in my reply to your other post.

This was something it took me a long time to understand as a "nice" guy but it helped a lot once I figured it out.

[raccoon]

99. Sounds like your friend and some of these other women you've known

had troubled backgrounds--probably their families of origin, and consequently were attracted to assholes.

A counselor told me once, "We are comfortable with the familiar, even if it is painful.

[TlalocW]

14. If the roles were reversed would you be able to tell her the specifics?

Would you be able to tell a woman she was ugly as a reason for not wanting a second date like you're suggesting they do to you?

"Didn't make a connection" is a valid reason for not wanting to date someone in my opinion. She doesn't have some sort of obligation to be your Dr. Phil and give you a list of areas/flaws you need to work on.

TlalocW

[Ian David]

16. It sounds like she should have said, "You need therapy."

I detect some issues there, dude.

[Zenlitened]

17. I think maybe you're being too harsh on yourself.

Attraction is such a quirky, unpredictable thing, so hard to define, really. Ya know it when it happens. And sometimes that "something" just isn't there after one date. So I would encourage you not to read too much into when someone says she didn't feel a connection.

Maybe her expectations are too high... if she's looking for a "spark" or even "fireworks" on a first date. Look within yourself, to make sure your expectations are realistic, too.

Lots of couples I know say there were no sparks, no "He's the One!/She's the One!" feelings until after they'd known each other for a while. That's why I think it's important to do some "dating" with groups of mutual friends. Or break the "dinner-and-a-movie" mold by suggesting a "play date" of some sort.

Miniature golf. Ice skating or roller skating. Museum visit. Or even (a favorite of mine) doing the most Tourist-y, cheesy thing you city or region has to offer. A sunset cruise around Manhattan on a balmy summer evening is great. Visiting 'Old Ironsides"' or Bunker Hill in Boston. Canal tour in Chicago. Fun, goofy stuff, where you're out and about, moving around and interacting with your surroundings.

As for the "you're nice" stuff... Heck, nobody knows what to say to anybody anymore. We want to be sophisticated and smooth, witty and eloquent and always coolly in control, like Bogart and Bacall, those legendary archetypes. But then we're just ourselves, when it comes time to communicate what we're thinking, and so we speak the simple truths we have at hand, hoping we won't be misunderstood.

"Nice" is good, IMO. A true "gentleman" is a treasure. I don't think it necessarily hides a criticism, not at all. It's just a way of saying you're a good person, but the "spark" isn't there. It's a shame, because as I say too often we're looking for a spark and missing all the fun, interesting qualities that seem to be the true strengths of a relationship over time.

:)


(edit spelling)

[SIMPLYB1980]

24. Thanks for the input ladies.

I appreciate it. Even from IanDB1 at least here I can get some honest answers.

[SemperEadem]

33. your expectations exceeded the situation you were in

you put your heart on the line on a first date? You didn't even know the woman--you only knew what you created in your imagination about her. You didn't factor in that she was her own person who is entitled to her preferences in a potential partner, just as you were. It sounds as if you feel you were owed what you wanted because you had the interest.

She was being honest with you. She told you that there was no connection. So, you move on, pull your line out of that area of the lake and you cast it in another direction.

You'd have been complaining if she was brutally honest with you or if she was cautiously honest with you because the point of your post is that you're pissed because she didn't meet your expectations of how you imagined she should have reacted towards you.

When it comes to relationships with anyone, we all have been hurt. I've been politely turned down by a guy who really liked a good friend of mine--and she swore she would never do anything to hurt our friendship--and 3 hours later, I see the two of them out on a date. They eventually married, she got 2 babies out of him and then she divorced him and ran after a co-worker of his. Their karma is my revenge.

[wildhorses]

34. you put your heart on the line with a first date??

that, my friend, IS nice...

[liontamer]

35. someone can't be ugly and nice?

If she thought you were an asshole she might have told you that. She thinks you're a nice person, but not the one for her. What more do you want? I don't think she was trying to save you from anything.

[idgiehkt]

36. let me reframe it for you

"By just telling a guy he is "Nice" you are ripping his balls of and stomping on them. All it does is make him question every aspect of who he is as a man."

Don't you know that a whole lot of women are attracted to assholes? There are many women out there who are attracted to men who are incapable of intimacy because they themselves are not ready for a romantic relationship or fear intimacy themselves. So they seek out men that are not healthy partners because on some level they know that nothing will really ever come of it; trust me, I speak from experience. It says NOTHING at all about you or your masculinity, in fact it is probably a positive. There is nothing wrong with being called a nice guy, it's just that some women are not ready for a 'nice guy' so they appear to prefer guys that are not so nice. You are giving the woman way, way, way too much power over your mental state. It's entirely possible that you are in fact, a nice guy, and that a nice guy is a really good thing to be, and that when it is the right time you will meet a woman who can actually accept a 'nice guy' into her life; I hope to be one of those women one day. Until then you might continue to hear this, and that is okay; it doesn't mean that you are ugly or undesirable in any way, it probably means she has a few more rounds to go with lotharios and playas before she's gotten it all out of her system. There isn't much you can do about that, but if you've dotted all your 'i's and crossed all your 't's, and have your game down, so to speak, stop assuming that it is her point of view that should have more credence.

[Radical Activist]

64. That's a great post.

Unfortunately, it can be a difficult thing for some "nice guys" to hear if they see men they view as jerks and disrespectful to women get plenty of dates and sex while they're alone at home at the end of the night on Saturday.

It took me a while to figure out the things you wrote, and now that I'm a little older there are more women closer to my age who are ready to stop wasting time with bad boys, but there were some frustrating years before I learned what to look for and what to avoid in that regard. Hopefully, the OP comes to terms with all of that soon too.

[Zookeeper]

37. Sometimes it is just as simple as "chemistry"

That doesn't have to be because someone is a "bad boy" or nice. It's hard to define, and some people might give it a few dates to see if "chemistry" develops and others might expect to feel it right away.

There is no way of knowing why she reacted as she did. Don't beat yourself up, but DO slow down a bit in your expectations from one date. Perhaps meeting for coffee or lunch would be a safer (less invested) choice next time.

Good luck!

[Rabrrrrrr]

38. Nice: from old middle english meaning "foolish, stupid, ignorant". Throw this word out.

It's one of the worst words in English, and it's vastly overused.

It offers no information whatsoever to the person it is being said to.

Person 1: "You're nice".

Person 2: "Okay, that tells me absolutely nothing except that you are too fucking uncreative to actually tell me anything".

It's a word that I hate vehemently, not only in describing people, but for anything.

"How do you like my painting?"

"It's nice".

"You have no courage of opinion, then? Or just too dumb to have one?"



Throw this fucking word out of the English language. There is no reason for an adult, or anyone past 3rd grade, to use it.

I understand your vexation with being told you are "nice". That could be anything from "gentlemanly" (a very honorable description!) to "milksop". It offers no information whatsoever. "Oh, okay - I'm nice. So fucking what? At least do me the service of telling me something specific."

[redqueen]

43. Geezaloo...

I use "nice" to mean exactly that... NICE. As in - likeable, pleasant, welcome, etc.

As in not the archaic etymology... I think that's how most poeple use it.

[Rabrrrrrr]

46. Oh, I realize people aren't thinking of it in terms of the old meaning.

As I said in the post, I am against it because it's a useless word because it offers no information of any value whatsoever. It's too nebulous, too safe, too empty.

It's a word that first and second graders use.

[redqueen]

51. I like it cause it covers a lot of ground quckly.

Call me immature then...

[SemperEadem]

60. I would say it's used primarily

when one is not aquainted with the temperment of the person to whom they are saying this... it's generally not used if one knows the person well. It's mostly used when you really don't know them.... and when you don't know if the person would accept a definitive comment graciously, or if they will try to stab you in the eye with a fork if you make a definitive comment to them that they may not be mentally or emotionally willing to hear, one tends to opt for the middle ground to play it safe.

[Rabrrrrrr]

76. No, it's used primarily by lazy, imprecise people who don't want to be bothered.

It has nothing to do with knowing a person. You don't need to see deeply into someone's soul to say "you're funny" or "you have a beautiful smile" or "You made me feel like I was the only person in the room" or some other word/phrase than "nice". "Nice" is too broad, too non-specific, too nebulous to mean anything other than nothing.

And I'm not talking about being mean to people - I haven't touched on that topic at all. I agree with you that, unless you DO know someone's temperament, it's best to leave the criticisms for another day.

But you don't need to know someone to compliment on a truth you have seen in them.

"Nice" is just fucking lazy. Why not something like "Roger, I just don't feel like there was any chemistry between us. Your sense of humor still has me smiling inside, and you are an intelligent, thoughtful man, clearly well read on (some topic that he talked about and was obviously well-versed in) and I had a great time - but it didn't quite "click" for me, I'm sorry."

If you're gonna compliment, why not offer a real one?

Or, if the guy really wasn't very good but one doesn't want to mean, why bother faking a compliment? Just say, "Thanks for the evening out, Roger, but I'm sorry, it just didn't click for me." No need to defend, justify, or explain, or make up the bullshit line that "but your a nice guy". If he's not nice, don't say he is; if he is nice, take some initiative and tell him how. Especially if he bought dinner, he deserves a bit more honor.


But, on the other hand, pretty much all of us guys also know that "nice" is the death-knell word, so that there is no ambiguity that the relationship is utterly devoid of life, or even potential life.

Friends of dude getting back from a date: "How'd it go?"

Dude: "She called me nice."

Friends: "Oh, man, sorry to hear it. Better luck next time. Here, have a beer and we'll toast the bitch to hell."

Dude: "You guys are the best!"

Friends: "Tomorrow we'll make something with power tools."

(on edit: I used the word "you" in here a lot, and I apologize - I don't mean you specifically, I mean whatever generic woman is using the word 'nice' in whatever generic context)

[VelmaD]

104. I find it stunning...

that men would call a woman a bitch for calling a man nice. Just. Wow.

[Midlodemocrat]

113. Rabrrrrrr, you are so nice. I just LURVE you.

:bounce:

[Rabrrrrrr]

114. I wuv you, too wuvvy scwumpy buttons!

wuv wuv wuv!

You so niceypoo!

:blush:

[Midlodemocrat]

116. Schmoopie.

Schmoopie, woopie, doopie.

:blush:

[mainegreen]

49. I agree with Rabrrrrrr 100%, totally and completely on this. I never thought this day would come!

:wow:
:rofl:

[Chan790]

68. I'm with Rabrrrrrr on this one.

The word "nice" is one of the most useless words in the entire language...it's so non-specific as to be almost completely meaningless. It's usually used to cover weakness of expression of an idea, usually in one of two forms: "I can't think of an inoffensive way of saying I dislike this or why so I'm going to say "nice" because it prevents any attempt to pin me down to what I think" or "I can't explain why I like it so I'm going to say it's nice".

While there are significant flaws to portions of the OP, I cannot argue with being irritated by being called "nice". I don't think anybody has a right to be mean, but saying "I don't think we have anything in common." or "You're not what I'm looking for." or "I just don't think we have chemistry." or even something as brutal as "I'm just not attracted to you." isn't mean (because it's precise). It's simply firm. "Nice" on the other hand can mean anything from "I think you're swell but I'm not interested to having sex with you" to "That joke you told during dinner makes me suspect that you're a closet pedophile, but I don't want to be mean; I just want you to go away." This non-firmness is daunting in its' vastness in the universe of ideas. In this way, "nice" is a lot meaner.

[noamnety]

155. When did you suddenly sprout that attitude?

"Throw this fucking word out of the English language. There is no reason for an adult, or anyone past 3rd grade, to use it."

"No human being should ever be called "nice" (from below)

Seems to me you use the word quite frequently yourself, to include describing yourself, and only developed an angry disdain for the word as a result of it being associated with a woman not finding a man sexually attractive - the ultimate assault on masculinity.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=6133396#6133798

[Rabrrrrrr]

172. OMG! You caught me being inconsistent and imperfect.

Gee, I guess that proves everything. I must suck as a human being, what with being so obviously imperfect, and God only knows that all I ever do is claim to be perfect, without error, and utterly consistent in everything.


How much of your life did you waste on that search?

Niiiiiiiiiice.

:eyes:

[noamnety]

174. Took most of a day - didn't even have time to pee.

I started reading through all the posts ever made on DU, one by one, to see if you'd posted anything in them, and when I realized how long that was going to take, I messaged the women on DU and we formed an organized team. Women on the west coast took the lead with the 2006 archives, women on the east coast took 2005, the midwest 2004, and the others took 2003. Because the lounge has so many posts, we separated that out, and called some overseas contacts who were able to come to our aid. There were about 200 women involved, all in all. We set up a phone tree just for this. The whole lot of us, we've been sitting here with our legs crossed - all too dedicated to take a potty break.

(I just had a hunch that if the woman had called him nice and asked to see him again, the men wouldn't have have risen up in an amusing display of self-righteous anger at her inexact vocabulary.)

[PVnRT]

161. That's nice

n/t

[Madspirit]

39. Your feelings...

Your feelings are just hurt. You don't need her affirmations. She was just trying to be polite. Don't let it get you down. You sound like a sensitive guy. There will will be another woman for you. I promise.
Lee

[Joe Chi Minh]

166. The wisest words yet, I suspect. A lot of things sensitive young people

have to learn by experience.

The lad seems weighed down by an obligation to, first and foremost, be ... dare I say it, Rabrrr?... especially nice to young ladies. As he grows older he'll have some rough edges put on. He'll still be just as nice to them, but he'll be able to spontaneously enjoy their company, i.e. without an etiquette kind of filter.

[Ptah]

40. There are too many blank spaces in this story

IhopeIdon'tgetflamedforthisbutIneedtogetthisoffmychest.
LetmestartoffbysayingthatIsupportwomensrights.I'mprocho
ice,andhavestoodupforwomenIhaveseenabusedbyothermen.Mym
othertaughtmetorespectallwomenandItrytoasbestasIcan.(Ic
an'tbringmyselftorespectanywomenlikeAnnCoulter.)Anyway,
Idon'tdatealotbecauseI'vebeenhurtbadlyseveraltimesinthe
past,butIstilltakethetimetolookforlove.Mymothersetmeupw
ithadateforoneoftheDoctorssheworkswithovertheweekend,ac
tuallyIsetmyselfupshejustgothernumber.Wetalkedafewtimes
onthephoneanddecidedtogooutfordinnerandamovie.Ithoughtt
hatwehadareallygoodtime.Iavoidedallthetopicsyouavoidona
firstdatepolitics,religion,abortionect.Wetalkedaboutmov
ies,music,sports,ourfamily,andmanyothernoncontroversial
topics,andseemedtohavealotincommon.WewenttoseeMusicandL
yricswhichwouldn'thavebeenmyfirstpic,butactuallyit'sago
odmovie.Idideverythingmymotherraisedmetodo.Iopenedthedo
orsforher,Ipaidforeverything,nocussing(hardforme),andba
sicallyactedlikeagentleman.Weendedthedatewithasimplekis
s,notongue.ItoldherIwouldcallherandshesaidO.K.Wewentout
onSaturdaysoIgaveheracallonMondaynighttoseehowherdaywen
t.NowIgettothepointofmypost.Apparentlywedidn'thaveasgoo
dofatimeasIthoughtwedid.NowIdon'texpectaseconddatebutId
oexpecthonestyafterIputmyheartontheline.Ialsounderstand
thatitmustbehardforawomentotellamanshesnotinterested,bu
tit'snoteasyforustoaskyououteither.Anyway,allshesaidwas
thatwedidn'tmakeaconnection,butI'ma"niceguy."Thatladies
isatotalcopout.IfyouthinkI'muglytellme,Ifyouthinkwehave
nothingincommontellme,atleasttellmesomethingconstructiv
esoIcantrytoworkonthataspectofmycharacterflaw.Buyjustte
llingaguyheis"Nice"youarerippinghisballsofandstompingon
them.Allitdoesismakehimquestioneveryaspectofwhoheisasam
an.Soladiesifyoudon'tlikeustelluswhy,youmaythinkthatbuy
tellingusweare"nice"youaresavingusfromthepainofthetruth
,butactuallyyouareharmingusjustasbadlyasifyousaidyouare
themosthideoushumanbeingalive.Ihopeyoudon'tthinkthispos
tisabouthurtingwomen.Ilovetheladies,butIneededtogetthis
outofmyhead.

[ForrestGump]

42. You missed an apostrophe

Right......there.

See it?

:P

[SemperEadem]

61. wow... what an interesting use of time.

[Ptah]

63. To each our own.

:hi:

[Patiod]

94. Avoiding controversial topics

not necessarily a good idea

I had a client that I had nothing in common with, and to save money, we shared 45 minute rides to and from the airport on this one project. Once we had exhausted the only non-controversial topic we could (baseball), we were stuck. I thought I had really blown it, since a lot was riding on hitting it off with this guy. And this wasn't a first - I often struggle to find something to talk about with male clients, since I'm not into sports other than the Phils.

Then, somehow, the conversation got onto religion, and all of a sudden we hit it off like a house on fire. Turns out neither of us are extremely spiritual, but we both place a really high value on the importance of a church community in our lives (and in his case, in the life of his wife & kids). We ended up sitting in front of our drop-off point, prolonging the conversation, and this after wasting about an hour trying to stick to "non controversial" topics.

As long as neither person is respectful of differing points of view, I think you CAN talk religion and politics.

[Joe Chi Minh]

167. As St Augustine of Hippo put it, "Love God and do what you like"!

[redqueen]

44. What if "nice" is the truth?

If you want some constructive criticism, ASK for it... but don't expect women to give you a list of reasons why she didn't find you a 'love match'.

The most likely reason is there was no chemistry. No connection, if you will. I'm sure she'd be happy to say that... but asking us to tell you that your big nose was a turnoff, or your ears are too small and too far down, or any other of a plethora of reasons that we may not be physically attracted to someone is a little too much to ask from someone who doesn't relish destroying someone's ego for no good reason.

Newsflash to those that still don't get it: NICE is GOOD. And MATURE ladies will LOVE you for it. If a woman want's a "bad boy" ... then STAY AWAY, she has issues!

Good luck... :hug:

[Whoa_Nelly]

45. Have told the truth

One guy I met for drinks wanted to go out on a date after we met. I was honest. Told him that he and I were not going to be a good match, and that, honestly, he didn't spark me. He became royally pissed. Said i wasn't giving him a chance. How would I know whether or not we were a good match or not, or if there wasn't a spark that COULD happen??? (At the time was in my late 40s. By that age, can tell if I will be interested in someone or not.) I remained calm, and responded to him that if I didn't feel any interest, any spark, it would be a waste of our time to date, and we wouldn't have to go through all the polite niceties of dating a few times to have to go through the "You're a nice guy, but..." scenario.

That's just one story of mine. I do believe in being honest, but have to admit that sometimes using the "nice guy" bow-out to not dating a man can be a prudent thing to do, especially if the first rejection such as the one example above, elicits anger and an an indication of a personality that borders on abusive.

So....being nice is sometimes the better way to go. Thank goodness that one guy had no clue where I lived.

[raccoon]

100. I had a similar experience. Dated a guy and told him,

"I don't think we have anything in common."

He snarled, "well, do you have to have every damn thing in common with somebody?"

After that, I didn't want him anywhere near me. I think he had an abusive personality.

".being nice is sometimes the better way to go. " YES!

[Nicole]

50. What's wrong with being called nice?

If I was told we didn't make a connection, but I was a nice girl I wouldn't take that as an insult. I would be glad he was honest with me instead of stringing me along until he made a connection elsewhere.

You said "I did everything my mother raised me to do."

Perhaps she was doing everything her mother raised her to do as well?. Maybe she didn't say you were ugly because she was raised with the "if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all" advice.

I would never tell a guy I thought he was ugly, even if I thought he was. I wasn't raised that way.

[Maraya1969]

52. Several girlfriends were talking and someon said something like: 'I bet none

of you would like to be married to any of the other husbands here. I was married at the time and I had to agree with her. Yet the women who married these men were attracted to them and loved them...at least in the beginning.

For what that's worth. I find it very hard to say to a man that I am not interested in him. It is just hard ad uncomfortable and I don't want to hurt anyone. I think that's why I don't date much anymore. I guess I'm waiting for something to spark with a person who is hanging around. I joined a few dating sites and it was just torture going on the dates.

[treestar]

53. But all women aren't alike

What she might say she didn't like is not anything you can learn from. All women would have to be exactly like her, and they are not.

[WI_DEM]

54. the old "you're a nice guy...but..." I sympathize.

but then I was guilty once or twice of the old and even more rotten "It's not you--it's me" line.

[Radical Activist]

57. There are some lines

that sound worse than any insult because I've heard them before I know they're bullshit lines. I would rather a woman honestly tell me I'm ugly, boring, offensive or whatever than be told I'm a "nice guy" or that she just doesn't want a relationship right now. That's my favorite because they're always dating someone else when you see them a couple weeks later. Just be honest!

[raccoon]

101. If a woman told a guy he was ugly, boring, offensive, etc., a lot

of guys would argue back with her. Some could get quite nasty about it, especially if the guy had issues to begin with.

99.9% of the time he would just get defensive and angry, rather than taking steps to change his appearance or behavior.

And I'm not saying the guy should try to change anything; after all, that was just ONE PERSON'S OPINION.

[Bunny]

109. Yep. She'd be called a bitch, a c - - t, and any other name

you can think of. So no matter what, the woman can't win. Funny how that works out, isn't it? :evilfrown:

[Radical Activist]

110. Yeah,

A lot of people are jerks so I understand why a woman would want to say as little as possible or nothing at all. I've had girlfriends who I thought were perfectly nice, rational people until I broke up with her. You never know what someone will do.

[Katherine Brengle]

58. Maybe she thought you were nice.

Oversensitive much?

There are a lot of guys in my life who are nice and who I would not be interested in a relationship with - doesn't mean they are ugly or anything else. Sometimes there just isn't a spark.

[SPKrazy]

59. Are You A Nice Guy?

I mean, maybe she was being polite too? :shrug:

Let it go...

:shrug:

many first dates

I don't think telling someone they are "nice" is the same as having your balls ripped out and stomped on.

:eyes:

:shrug:

[KG]

65. i'm not sure i really wanna know what's wrong with me.

so, i'll take the 'nice guy' thing.

[MrSlayer]

66. You're putting your heart on the line on the first date?

Dude. Seriously.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

71. ...

:popcorn:

[Dastard Stepchild]

72. You would really prefer a woman to tell you that you were ugly?

Seriously?

How does that feel less painful than getting a pleasant brush-off? I'm not being snarky... I'm inquiring.

[XemaSab]

176. It's a fact

The last two guys I asked out, one of them told me in no uncertain terms why he wouldn't date me if I was the last person on earth. The other one told me that he wasn't particularly interested in dating me but we could go have dinner sometime as friends. We went. We had dinner. It was okay.

:shrug:

[Dangerously Amused]

73. Hey, you know what?

Sometimes when people aren't good enough for you, they figure it out before you do. So they leave you before you figure it out too, and dump them. It feels like you're getting dumped, but the truth is they dump themselves, because their fragile ego requires them to walk away with their pride ostensibly intact. It's a sour grapes kinda thing.



It took me a long time to figure that out.

[ForrestGump]

74. There've been some very interesting insights thrown about in this thread,

especially from the distaff side (sure 'distaff' is a stupid word, but how often do we get to use it?).

Very nice. :-)

[Pierre.Suave]

127. I both hate it, and like it when

someone makes me open my dictionary to learn the meaning of a new word, so...

fuck you

and


thank you




















LOL, kidding...

[smirkymonkey]

189. Nice.

dis·taff /ˈdɪstæf, -tɑf/
–noun
1. a staff with a cleft end for holding wool, flax, etc., from which the thread is drawn in spinning by hand.
2. a similar attachment on a spinning wheel.
3. Archaic.
a. a woman or women collectively.
b. woman's work.
–adjective
4. Sometimes Offensive. noting, pertaining to, characteristic of, or suitable for a woman; female.

Misogyny is alive and well on DU. :eyes:

[BlueIris]

75. Trust me, man, sometimes a euphamism/half-truth is best.

After one date, you probably don't want to know the "real" reason she didn't think you "clicked."

[XemaSab]

177. She might not even know herself

Just that her heart didn't go pitty-pat. :shrug:

[noamnety]

77. ewwwww. eww eww eww. The deconstruction.

the cranky feminist perspective. (If that's gonna piss you off stop reading here.)
(and I'm taking it at your word that you like honest feedback)
(if you don't want that, don't read)
(last warning)


Let me start off by saying that I support womens rights.

Why do I know when something starts like that, it's gonna include some kinda macho BS?

I'm pro choice, and have stood up for women I have seen abused by other men.

Ugh ugh ugh. I mean, pro-choice is good. Standing up for abused women is good. But why is that in a story about a first date that didn't work out? "I spoke out against slavery, so why won't this black guy date me?"

My mother taught me to respect all women and I try to as best as I can. (I can't bring myself to respect any women like Ann Coulter.)
What is this doing here? It's like you can't figure out how to separate gender from humanness. "I like all blacks. Except that one black guy, he's an idiot." Can't you just respect people as people? Why do we even have this marker like you deserve a prize for respecting women?

I avoided all the topics you avoid on a first date politics, religion, abortion ect.

Because ... you don't want to know her values? Or you don't want her to know yours in case you offend her and you won't get laid?

I opened the doors for her, I paid for everything, no cussing (hard for me), and basically acted like a gentleman.

I don't buy into this "gentleman" crap, personally. It always sounds to me like code for being patronizing toward women. Being decent and respectful is cool. I think I just have a bad reaction to the word itself, and the way it's tied to mindless routines "I opened a door cause that's what men do for women" when in my mind it should be tied to things like "I stopped and gave money to a homeless person." It's not like I'm offended if a person opens a door, it's a habit some folks are raised with, it's all good by me, but to write about it afterwards like it's an item offered up as proof she should have liked you is just weird.

Apparently we didn't have as good of a time as I thought we did.

She is an independent person with independent thoughts from you. So probably what you mean is: "Apparently she didn't have as good of a time as I had."

Now I don't expect a second date but I do expect honesty after I put my heart on the line. I also understand that it must be hard for a women to tell a man shes not interested, but it's not easy for us to ask you out either. Anyway, all she said was that we didn't make a connection, but I'm a "nice guy." That ladies is a total cop out.

eww eww eww

Ain't nothing creepier than telling a guy you didn't feel attracted to him in that way, and then him getting all ick like you "owe" him a detailed list of why you aren't sexually attracted to him. I'm having creepy guy flashbacks.

Buy just telling a guy he is "Nice" you are ripping his balls of and stomping on them. All it does is make him question every aspect of who he is as a man.

And here we are at the final stop in genderbiashell. Any dude that says that is undatable by me. "Being a man means not being nice." "How dare you attack my manhood."

eww
eww
eww

I'm cranky cause I just read a piece on a survey given to psychiatrists, I think it was, asking them to identify specific traits as female or male. And then they were given the same list and asked to identify the traits that healthy successful adults have. And the traits that are valued are the ones we socialize men to have. The traits that are devalued are the ones we socialize women to have. So in the shadow of that, I'm hearing "I respect women, but I am completely offended that you described me with a quality that is associated with women. I mean, I respect them, but let's not forget they're "less than" what I am."

ewww ewww ewww

[UncleSepp]

82. BRAVA! *thunderous applause*

That was great, and dead on IMO. This part had me saying "Yes!!" out loud, rather loudly, probably making the neighbor think I'm having a lot better of a night than is actually the case ;-)

Ain't nothing creepier than telling a guy you didn't feel attracted to him in that way, and then him getting all ick like you "owe" him a detailed list of why you aren't sexually attracted to him. I'm having creepy guy flashbacks.

Did we date the same guy? ;-) Bleh! I hate that. I read "If you're not going to screw me after all I did, then at least you owe it to me to tell me what I need to do to get laid by some other woman, because you know, what works with one girl will work with another..."

There's also the "ladies" bit. "Lady", "ladylike", and the lot all seem like references to the demure and restrained character a woman is "supposed" to have, which seems particularly inappropriate in a rant that boils down to "there was this woman who wouldn't sleep with me, and she wouldn't tell me bad things about myself". Well, a "lady" wouldn't do either of those things, now would she?

I think that often, people tend not to be particularly aware of their own real thoughts. There is what they think they're thinking, what they feel they should feel, and then there's what's really going on in there. When a person speaks and writes, the real thoughts come out. A good deconstruction like yours can expose thoughts a person doesn't even know he has.

Do you have a link or a citation for that piece you mentioned?

[noamnety]

107. "Tell me what I need to do to get laid"

I think you just uncovered why I felt that demand was so creepy. That, and maybe a reaction to the stereotypical male dominant attitude that they are entitled to control us. Both genders do that once there's an actual relationship where compromise and sacrifice is necessary, or when a person is clearly inappropriate (screaming at you) (oh, wow, subliminal stuff coming out - started to type "screaming at you in public" - yikes). But demanding that people respond to you in particular ways, demanding that they even participate in a conversation they don't want to be in, is dominant controlling behavior. It's the same reaction I had to this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=221x48714 when the guy felt it was his place to demand an unpleasant conversation, initiating it by touching a woman he doesn't even know, so she "has" to react in some way.

Spot on about "ladies" with it conjuring up a certain set of characteristics.

... attention has been paid to the paradox in socializing roughly half the population to do and be something that is devalued by the culture. This was dramatically illustrated in a classic study conducted nearly three decades ago. A research team (Broverman, Broverman, Clarkson, Rosenkrantz & Vogel, 1970) prepared a list of traits that reflected a broad range of human qualities. Then they asked 79 male and female clinicians (Psychiatrists, psychologists, and social workers) to check the attributes they thought described "normal, healthy women." Next the clinicians checked traits they associated with "normal, healthy men." Finally, clinicians selected characteristics of "normal, healthy adults." The findings were clear and startling: Normal women were described as dependent, deferential, unassertive, converned with appearance, submissive, emotional, and uncompetitive. In contrast, clinicians described normal men as independent, aggressive, competitive, not submissive, more rational than emotional, and ambitious. Associated with normal adults were the qualities used to describe normal men. From these clinical judgments, two conclusions follow. First, the clinicians perceived stereotypically masculine characteristics as the standard, or norm, for healthy adults. Second, being a normal, healthy woman was seen as incompatible with being a normal, healthy adult.

Gendered Lives, Julia T. Wood.

[pokerfan]

83. I used to think men had it hard

Having to suffer rejection.

In general, it's usually been the case that I was the pursuer. But there were a few times where I've found myself the pursued and it's just as hard to let someone down. Maybe even harder for men to handle correctly, having experienced rejection.

They weren't ugly or unstylish or bad personalities or anything. It's "je nous se qua" in reverse. I just can't put a finger on it. So don't expect me to present you with a report card.

There was always a bit of marketing/salesmanship going on as well. And for some bizarre reason, a woman pursuing me almost always became less attractive. Can anyone else confirm this phenomenon?

All I can say to the OP is get over it. Refer to my Venn Diagram in the other post. Not everyone you are attracted to is going to be attracted to you. Deal with it.

[SemperEadem]

156. that's 'je ne sais quoi"

[pokerfan]

160. endless apologies!

[Joe Chi Minh]

168. Oh, no. If other things are right, being pursued is brilliant, as far as

I'm concerned. Just couldn't believe my luck.

[Zuiderelle]

93. You are absolutely correct on every point!

:thumbsup:

[smirkymonkey]

188. Bravo. Well said.

:applause:

[u4ic]

78. You would rather she called you

a prick? Even if she didn't mean it? Or that she string you along, even if she didn't like you? :shrug:


She said you're a nice guy, but she didn't feel a connection. She didn't feel one, doesn't mean that you're worthless or ugly or whatever depreciating statement you want to believe about yourself.

Whichever way she did it - not answering emails/returning phone calls, or telling you straight, as she did - it is still rejection.


I'm sorry you're hurting, but she did the mature - and right - thing. Perhaps you should be questioning your response, not hers.

[Pushed To The Left]

79. It sounds like you two just weren't compatible

I used to believe that women didn't like "nice guys". Now I realize that only some women are like that....and those are the ones to stay away from! I dated one about 14 years ago. She had just gotten out of a relationship with a jerk, and when we started to get serious, she cut me loose and went back with him! My point in bringing her up is, even if we had stayed together, I would have ended up being miserable! Women who prefer men who treat them badly are usually unhealthy mentally and emotionally, and she was no exception. Many years later, I heard that she lied about having a miscarriage just because she was lonely and wanted a friend to come over! Thank God we didn't end up together! In my case, a lot of women wouldn't date me now because they think I'm a loser. However, women who think that way are the types that I wouldn't want to be with even if I was very successful! They don't share my values.

It's all about compatibility. It's best to just be yourself, so you will attract women who like you for you. People are all attracted to different things. For example, I'm attracted to women that other men wouldn't be attracted to, and vice versa. Rejection is just an opportunity to continue dating more women! Take it from somebody who just got out of a very rough 7-year relationship: Being single is 1000 times better than being in a bad relationship! If a woman doesn't want a second date, it means that you two aren't compatible, and would have been unhappy in a relationship together.

My advice is to just keep dating, have fun, and just be yourself. You'll end up with somebody much more compatible that way.

[XemaSab]

178. Hey there!

Sorry to threadjack, just saying hi!

And yeah, in an above post I discussed a jackass who rejected me. After he rejected me he went out with this girl who cheated on him repeatedly, and he became morose as hell and addicted to crack. He was also diagnosed with schizophrenia and manic depression. So even if you think you want someone, maybe you just don't know them well enough. :crazy:

[Pushed To The Left]

180. Hi Xemasab!

It sounds like you are definitely better off without that guy!

[XemaSab]

183. Well yeah

:crazy:

:hi:

How have you been?

[hickman]

80. Sometimes the most attractive thing about a man

is his total comfort with himself and his life. He doesn't neeeeed me, he just choses to get to know me. Years of observing has taught me that nothing is more attractive to a man or a woman as someone who can be with someone else. Stop interviewing for marriage for awhile. Just date and get to know. Sometimes those women who see you as "just a friend" can be your best friend if you let them. They will introduce you to The One eventually.

[pokerfan]

81. It takes two, dude

I could draw you a Venn diagram, but that would be geeky. Ah, who am I kidding.



She could stomp her foot once for yes, twice for no, for all I care. Big deal, it didn't work out for whatever reason.

And don't be obsequious. It's really not an attractive attribute in my experience.

[Joe Chi Minh]

169. Very funny post. And to the point.

[Bassic]

84. Boy do I know where you're coming from.

I went through a lot of that before I finally met Mrs Bassic.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

87. why are you encouraging women to be rude and obnoxious?

seriously ...do you know how many here would call me a bitch if i said this:

I went out on a date with this guy, he was nice, we had a good conversation. He called and i said "sorry dude, but you are too ugly for me"

The civil thing to say is what the woman you went out on a date said which is pretty much "hes a fine person, i am just not interested".

rejection is a hard pill to swallow (i for instance am still mad at harvard for rejecting me undergrad)...but there is no reason to say she was at fault for not being interested and should have been meaner.

[VelmaD]

106. well according to post #76...

we're pretty much gonna get called a bitch either way. *sigh*

[Rabrrrrrr]

119. No. Read #76 more carefully.

Pretty much the use of the word "nice", as in "Thanks for the evening, but I don't think we clicked, but you're a nice guy"

Though this is getting into a certain guy sociology in which the friends will gladly call the woman who dumped the other friend a bitch so as to say "Ah, she doesn't know what she's missing by letting you go" and either a) help the man recover from the emasculation, the humiliation, and the bullshit of being called "nice", or b) even if she didn't use the word "nice", to help the friend see that she probably wasn't worth going out with anyway. Men tend to rally around and support one another that way in times of need.

[VelmaD]

121. I think you're missing my point

If you call the guy "nice" him and his friends (according to your post) are going to call you a bitch. If you tell him exactly why you don't want to go out again (as in lionesspriyanka's post) you're going to get called a bitch then too. We can't fucking win on this one.

And why does rallying around and supporting your friend have to translate into calling the woman a nasty name? Why does building up your friend's ego have to involve tearing down another human being?

[smirkymonkey]

190. Interesting that "nice" is forbidden, yet "bitch" is A-ok.

And some people wonder why they can't get laid. :eyes:

[lukasahero]

122. "Men tend to rally around and support one another that way in times of need."

You left off the "By calling women bitches."

Supporting one person doesn't have to mean putting another down. Is that a guy thing?

Telling the guy he's great and will find someone else = healthy esteem building support. Telling the guy that "she's" a bitch = something else entirely.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

129. i remember a thread i created here that got a huge uproar

(since its causing a second uproar i edited this post. too tired for this crap)

[Bunny]

131. Modesty is not something you suffer from, is it?

Did it occur to you that how you phrase things may put people off? Your way makes it sound like you think your shit doesn't stink, and no one wants to hear that, even if you believe it to be true.

Saying that you are honestly so far out of the league of old, bald, fat guys sounds much worse than saying that older, heavier guys who may have lost some hair just do not appeal to you. The same message is conveyed, but in a much less offensive manner.


Just sayin'.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

133. proving my point that no matter what you say someone will call you a bitch

and thats not exactly what i said, i said i resented the harrassment.

[Bunny]

135. Pardon me dear but I did NOT call you a bitch - I do not do that. Ever.

And you completely missed my point - the way you phrased your post was obnoxious. You said that you don't think old bald fat men should try to talk to you online because honestly, you are way out of their league.

How else could that possibly have been interpreted? If old bald fat guys don't appeal to you, fine. We all have our likes and dislikes. There's nothing wrong with saying that - but you can find a way to express it that doesn't come across as monumentally conceited.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

138. actually this is what i said

"so i am on friendster and myspace...and the messages i get from men are always so very surprising to me...the men are almost always much older, overweight, unattractive, inarticulate, barely literate and yet they do not hesitate at all to say that if i dont go out with them it will be a lost oppurtunity..yet when beautiful women approach me on those sites they are so much more apologetic and modest...


i dont get it."

[Bunny]

140. That may have been what you said in that other thread, I did not read that one.

But that's not what you said in post #129 in this thread. My comments to you come only from what you wrote here, in this thread.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

141. i was replying to velma saying that an uproar can be caused if you are honest

maybe you should have asked me for the initial thread before jumping down my throat.

either way i dont really care.

[Bunny]

146. Oh I think you do care, or you wouldn't be responding.

And it doesn't matter who you were responding to. Your "honesty" came across as extremely conceited. If you don't see it that way, I'm not surprised.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

148. yup i am conceited and lacking in modesty.

with good reasons.

happy now?

[Bunny]

149. My happiness, or lack thereof, is of no consequence to this discussion.

I didn't enter it to make myself happy. But I'll let you go ahead and have the last word.

[Karenca]

142. That's some statement.

Out of their league?
Because you're young ? (sort of).

That's an outrageous statement.


In what way are are you so superior?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

144. thats not exactly what i said.

what i said was in reference to comparing the self esteem of men vs women

"so i am on friendster and myspace...and the messages i get from men are always so very surprising to me...the men are almost always much older, overweight, unattractive, inarticulate, barely literate and yet they do not hesitate at all to say that if i dont go out with them it will be a lost oppurtunity..yet when beautiful women approach me on those sites they are so much more apologetic and modest...


i dont get it."

at the time i was around 26 and all the men that i was referencing to were in their 40's. i think thats icky.

[Karenca]

145. Did you read "Self-Made Man'?

I think the author is Norah Vincent.

The book explains alot.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

147. i was a both a psychology and a sociology major so i am aware of the reasons why

there is a self esteem issue difference in men and women.

however this is the lounge where people whine and destress.

or atleast they used to.

[Joe Chi Minh]

170. .. or a lesbian.

[NewJeffCT]

88. Patience, grasshopper

Things will change for you, I promise.

First off, I was the nice guy for years. While I was too shy to date in high school, the women I met in college and throughout my 20s would almost inevitably tell me, “You’re a nice guy...but.”

I mean, I even had a drunk woman that I really really really liked come up to me in the dorm hallway, pull up her shirt and flash her boobs to me (she was braless) – she then tried to pull me into my dorm room. However, being the nice guy that I was, I insisted on bringing her back to her room and making sure she was safe. I figured if she really liked me, she could tell me again when she was sober. I’m sure you know how this turns out – she never told me and she ended up hooking up with a bad boy type down the road. (Turns out she had liked me and had a few drinks in order to get up the courage to ask me out, only she had a few too many drinks. And, when I did not take advantage of the situation, she assumed I did not like her that way.)

It really does seem like the proverbial “Kiss of Death” to a guy, especially when guys that have reputations for treating women like dirt seem to have little problem in getting women.

Needless to say, I was pretty depressed in my teens and 20s.

However, as soon as I hit 30, things changed for me and being a nice guy was not a liability for me anymore. My ex-wife actually appreciated that I was the first guy that liked her first for her personality and didn’t just leer at her chest. My wife now actually appreciates that I do most of the housework and do more work in taking care of our daughter.

And, between marriages, those college women that thought I was too nice suddenly seemed to like me.

So, I would just say that you have to give it time. Things will change.

For the time being, do not get so worked up over a woman on the first or second date – or even the third or fourth. If a woman is really meant to be The One for you, you have a lifetime together.

[Zuiderelle]

92. "I love the ladies" !!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Blue-Jay]

95. Ooooo! A lady!

[Zuiderelle]

98. ...

[Gormy Cuss]

103. It's not all about you.

Why do you assume that being told you're nice but she's not interested is a statement on your character? Maybe she's still got feelings for someone else and didn't realize that until after she tried to date again (and no, she isn't obligated to tell that to someone she just met, even if he is a nice guy.) Maybe she has enough manners to try to keep the date pleasant in spite of the fact that she didn't really agree with you about much of anything. There are a lot of reasons why after one date that someone doesn't want to repeat the experience. If you think being called nice is emasculating, wait until you encounter someone who is brutally honest. "You're too short." You're going bald." "You don't have enough career ambition." "You live at home, you must have mommy issues."
I could go on, but I think you get the picture. When a woman says that you're nice it's a compliment.
Deal with it as such. You'll feel better about yourself that way.

[Connonym]

105. My 2 cents

First off, wow, some of the responses here are pretty harsh. I think you seem sincere and I'm sorry that you feel hurt by this. My personal take on the situation -- I think you have this backwards "you're nice" isn't the reason she's not interested. She's not interested for who knows what reason (chemistry?) but she's trying to reassure you that you weren't a jackass or in some other way offensive. I have dated a lot of fun dates with men who were perfectly nice and WISHED I could have been attracted to them but wasn't. I wouldn't be able to put a finger on exactly why, it just is what it is. Some people need to feel a spark from the very start. The lack of spark isn't always personal. It doesn't mean you're ugly or hideous or have some other fatal flaw. It's not an insult.

The second thing, I personally don't think you should act different on a date than what you really are. I don't think you should change the way you talk. If politics and religion,etc., are important to you, there's no reason you should avoid those subjects. Be yourself. Be genuine. Be confident in who you are. These are the things that attract people. Trying hard to make a good impression, especially if it's by acting unnaturally, sometimes comes off as trying TOO hard.

So relax, be yourself. Try to plan a first date somewhere that you feel comfortable (you'll feel more confident). Be in the moment and enjoy the other person's company without thinking about where it's headed. I wish you luck. :hug:

[Zavulon]

108. I always got "you're a nice guy, but..." for the same reason...

...it was my job at the time (I drove a fork lift and looked every bit as blue collar as one could). This girl's a doctor, so if she's anything like a lot of my dates from my blue collar days, she might say that to anyone she doesn't consider her peer (I don't know what your job is, I'm just spitballing here) even if she really did have a good time.

Now that I have an IT job, I get a lot less "you're a nice guy, but..."

[NashVegas]

118. You Know, That's a Great Point

It's horrible snobitude, but there is that aspect of thinking about you and your date's social circles, and will you all mesh.

Most people do want to marry up, or at least marry equal. It's instinct.

[Zavulon]

137. My father always said

that the most effective aphrodisiac on women was a high-paying or prestigious job. This sort of took me aback the first time I heard it, so I turned to my mother to get her reaction: she shrugged her shoulders and said "a girl's gotta eat."

[kwassa]

151. well this falls into the pattern of old stereotypes .....

based on old gender roles and expectations, and even absurdly simplistic back then:

"Women are sex objects, men are success objects." reducing relationships to their lowest common denominator.

Our roles have changed, are more complex, and finding the right fit with another human being will be unique to you and that person.

It is a major trap to fall into "all women are like ...." or "all men are like ...". That said, I do agree with the insidiousness of the word "nice".

[Zavulon]

153. No doubt.

I was just introducing the possibility of one's job being a factor. Stereotypes are never 100% accurate, but they usually depict things that really do happen often. That said, I was just passing on my parents' words.

My first thoughts upon reading the OP was "okay, she's a doctor, I wonder what he does" because I've seen enough individual cases to think of that first. For all I know the author of the OP could be a doctor, lawyer, CEO, etc. It was just food for thought, though, not anything that I'd have bet on either way.

[lukasahero]

154. "Stereotypes are never 100% accurate"?

Wow - you approached that sentence from the entirely reverse perspective as I would have. To me, FAR more often than not, stereotypes are INaccurate depictions used primarily by people who feel less threatened with a quantifiable other.

[Zavulon]

158. We're all the products of our experiences, and

well over half the stereotypes I have run into have proven true in the majority of cases. However, it has been my experience that many stereotypes became stereotypes for a reason. What I've seen in my life doesn't allow me to dismiss them all that easily, I've found that some are usually quite valid.

[NashVegas]

159. We Are in the Age of Niche Marketing

And there are conclusions one can make about other people based solely on their clothing and grooming, in some cases.

[Rabrrrrrr]

120. You've hit upon the patronizing aspect of "nice" - thanks!

I was thinking about that earlier.

"But you're a nice guy" can also very much mean "You are not my social/intellectual/economic equal".

It can also mean "I'm too stupid to use another word", but it can also be used very patronizingly.

Children are nice. Puppies are nice. Especially as you are patting them on their head and sending them on their way to go what the lower classes of life do.

Men should not be called nice. No human being, in fact, should be called nice. We ALL deserve better than that. Even children.

[lukasahero]

123. www.dictionary.com

Some defininitions of "nice"

pleasing; agreeable; delightful
amiably pleasant; kind
characterized by, showing, or requiring great accuracy, precision, skill, tact, care, or delicacy
refined in manners, language, etc.
virtuous; respectable; decorous

I can't believe women have to fight on this board to try and get men to stop using the word "bitch" but guys here are complaining about the use of the word "nice". Good grief.

Edited for spelling in link... Oops.

[VelmaD]

124. I wish I could recommend just this post

Best of the day. Maybe of the year to date.

[Radical Activist]

125. And yet

in this context, it is used in exactly the patronizing way that matcom wrote.
A similar example; "Bless your heart" is a kind thing to say by definition but when used by certain people in a certain context, it is very patronizing.

[lukasahero]

128. Or perhaps you are only perceiving it to mean that

Isn't it remotely possible that the woman in question meant it to mean just what she said? Isn't it remotely possible that your perception of her intentions is skewing your own reaction to it? Most women are not evil bitches out to hurt and demean men every chance they get.

[Radical Activist]

136. As it is with all words

the meaning is all about perception. I do believe its possible that some women call men a "nice guy" when rejecting them without realizing the negative connotation that phrase has taken on in society. That doesn't make it any less insulting to the person on the receiving end.

[noamnety]

126. I'd recommend it as well.

:applause:

[Rabrrrrrr]

143. It's still a lazy, empty word. Just as lazy as using "bitch" is.

The dictionary definition of both has been superceded by the social meaning of both words.

I'm surprised that people still use "nice". I remember teachers in grade school, once I hit about 4th grade, refusing to allow us to use the word. "You're growing up now", they would say to us, "you need to find better words". And they were right - it's a word that does no one any good, especially since it's so overused that it has no meaning (like "awesome" and "incredible" and "unique", which now has to be qualified as "very unique" since "unique" has lost its meaning).

Maybe I'm just a language snob, I don't know. But the use of "nice" in my opinion, whether it's about dating, or looking at someone's painting, or responding to your friend's request that you look at the new thing-a-ma-bob the bought for the living room, is lazy, empty, and does no one any favors because it's a word without meaning.

Just like "bitch" doesn't offer any information about what, specifically, one is disagreeing with in a person's behavior. It's a lazy word (and one I'm sadly guilty of using - not guilty because it's "offensive" to some, but guilty because it's lazy and thus an offense to language itself).

What's so fucking hard about using words that actually mean something? Why not say "kind" or "thoughtful" or "witty" or "attentive" or "hilarious" or "generous" or other words that actually mean something? (assuming the guy that one is dating is actually any of those things - if not, then why lie and say "you're nice"? It's the lying, perhaps, that has helped speed this word's elevation into the male's internal lexicon as "you suck"). My grade school teachers were right - we're growing up, we need to use better words.

[Zavulon]

139. Well, perhaps not children.

;)

[raccoon]

179. What word(s) would you suggest? Never mind, you answered below. nt

[Yavin4]

111. You Are Waaaayyyy Over-Analyzing Things

I use to think just like you. In the end, your date was not interested in you, and sometimes, you just have to accept that and move on. That's it and that's all. You don't need feedback. You need to be yourself and find a woman who will like you for yourself.

The biggest mistake that you are making is that you're trying to like yourself through someone else. If you are happy with yourself, then who cares what somebody else thinks of you.

[marzipanni]

184. That's what I was thinking, and this is a quite an involved discussion.

Archae broke up with his new girlfriend, and posted about it. I'd guess he's a younger guy, but somehow his frank reply #6 seemed so refreshing!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x6236439

[NashVegas]

112. "I do expect honesty after I put my heart on the line" - On Your First Date?

How, exactly, are you putting your heart on the line when you avoided all controversial topics, and "did everything my mother raised me to do"? Not that there's anything wrong with that.

But.

Your heart = YOU. Putting your heart on the line = taking risks associated with being imperfect.

Learn to separate your heart from your ego, and learn to not invest so much of either before you have any evidence the other person suits your emotional needs.

Book suggestion: Mars and Venus on a Date.

[skygazer]

117. You went on one date

One.

This is not "putting your heart on the line" - or it shouldn't be.

It's a date. What's a date? It's a social engagement most often used to discover if you and the other person are compatable. It's not the lead-up for a trip down the aisle, at least not the first one.

You, sir, need to get over yourself a bit. Just because you hold the door open for a woman on the first date doesn't mean she owes you a detailed deconstruction of why she doesn't want to go out with you again.

She called you "nice."

Would you prefer childish and self-involved? Jesus. :banghead:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

130. agreed.

[Pierre.Suave]

132. I have to reply to this

First of all, I am a guy.

My first bit of advice is grow up.

It sounds to me like your expectations were way too high for a first date. Ridiculously, crazily high. it was one date dude, get the fuck over it.

Second, it sounds to me like you tried as hard as possible to be as boring as you possibly could. Women, at least in my experience, don't find boring attractive.

Third, SERIOUSLY, dinner and a movie? CLICHE from hell there. That screams BORING and uncreative. How about picking a more involved environment conducive to conversation and getting to know the other person. Someone above mentioned Mini-Golf, that is a GREAT idea. If it is cold out, find something similar, inside.

Fourth, how about not being nice. it is possible to be polite, and respectful, and not nice at the same time. Nice is boring, having no thoughts of your own, is boring. Why did you choose to avoid any topic that may have led to an actual conversation?

Fifth, it sounds to me as if you need to be comfortable with yourself before you go dating again.

[Strawman]

150. Work on the expunging the idea from your head that you have work to do

on your imagined "character flaws."

It was a first date. It didn't work out. She didn't string you along. That's all it is. Just because this person isn't interested doesn't mean you have a "flaw." You're doing all this to yourself. Your feelings ultimately have very little to do with what this other person said to you.

It's trite, cliche, but learn to love yourself and be yourself and you will find the right person. Someone you can really be comfortable with and enjoy spending time with that you don't have to worry about impressing. Otherwise, you're just building a house of cards.

Hang in there.

[Fran Kubelik]

157. Just sounds like you did not click.

After only one date, she owes you no more explanation than that.

[noamnety]

162. Conversations. :)

"I went out on a first date with a woman and at the end of it, I asked her what next? And she said "You're nice. I'd like to go out again." Screw that! By telling a guy he is "Nice" you are ripping his balls of and stomping on them. All it does is make him question every aspect of who he is as a man."

"I went out on a first date with a woman, and at the end of it, I knew I didn't want to go out again. So I told her I would have, except she was too fat. Now she's all pissed at me. What the hell is wrong with women?"

"I went out on a first date with a woman, and I told her she was nice. She got all upset, and said I had attacked her femininity, and it made her question every aspect of who she is as a woman."

[gravity]

163. Nice says it all

You were just trying to hard on the date to not offend her. You probably agreed with everything she said and did everything possible to impress her. The problem is that this comes off as fake and boring, because you are not showing your true self. Women can see right through this, and realize that you are insecure about yourself. While they might enjoy having you around to always agrees with them, you will be destined to the friend zone characterized by the infamous "nice guy." Women are attracted to confidence, which is the exact opposite of being an insecure nice guy.

You really just need to not put so much pressure on yourself next time. Don't be afraid to express your opinion or to disagree with what she says. Also don't give yourself to her right away, and play a little hard to get so she feels some pressure to impress you instead. The best is having the attitude that you don't really need to be with someone right now, since it comes off as confidence and will make you more successful with women.

I had problems being a nice guy too. The funny thing is that when I do have a girlfriend, I notice that a lot more girls are interested in me, and I have a much easier time flirting with them, because I have no pressure to get with them.

[bullwinkle428]

171. Bro...you need to check out "No More Mr. Nice Guy" - I don't think

it will take long before you start to see yourself!

www.nomoremrniceguy.com

I read the book (more than once) after my ex and split a little over a year ago, and it's completely changed the way I look at things, with regards to dating and relationships...

[XemaSab]

173. Interesting

Have you read "Men are From Mars, Women are From Venus?"

'Cause it's a good book.

"Nice" is a woman's way of telling you she likes you, but she's not attracted to you.

Attraction is an odd thing. I am a member of a drinking/discussion group. There's like, a 5 way love quintangle there where three guys like this one girl, two guys like me, and I like the guy who doesn't like me. The other girl, by the way, has a boyfriend who is none of the above guys.

So anyway, it's NOT ON. Nobody is getting anywhere. It's not that anyone's a creep or a bad person, it's just NOT ON. I'm sure you've met girls who were GOOD PEOPLE, but when you thought about dating them, you were just like "meh." That's how it is. NICE GUY is a code for "Not total scum, but not Mr. Right."

Hey, at least you had the decency to call her afterward. :P

[Joe Chi Minh]

181. On further reflection, I think the blandishments I and others expressed

concerning your attitude may well have been plain wrong.

You write, "I also understand that it must be hard for a women to tell a man shes not interested, but it's not easy for us to ask you out either." Did you ask her out in a spirit of altruism? Or for the normal kind of half-selfish reasons for any date? Because her response was certainly altruistic. Yet you equate the two; in fact, you seem to imply that your invitation was, if anything, the nobler.

I can't think of any basis for your assumption that, because, she was kind enough to conceal from you that she was not having such a good time, she was at fault; that she owed you a detailed breakdown of her reasons for not seeing the date as a preliminary to courtship.

Where's the empathy on your part? You don't seem to be able to put yourself in her place. That's not macho, it's a shortcoming. Why attribute such merit to a catalogue of liberal, PC behaviour per se, as though it elevated you in such a way that females should feel obligated towards you?

No woman owes you anything. Not if you buy her the most expensive of presents. Heck, if you saved her life, that too would be a privilege for you. God could have sent someone else in your place.

[outofbounds]

185. Simplyb1980, a few words.

Confidence, If you aren't comfortable with yourself, women will think your nice, but will not want to be more than a friend. I'm not saying arrogance that comes later. (just Kidding)
Pay attention to things and people that interest and don't be afraid to talk about anything. When a man goes out of his way to treat a woman special it sends the wrong signal. I don't know why, but it does. The most important person on this date is you. Do you want to settle for someone that thinks your a pushover. So be confident in yourself. I promise your nice guy crap will disappear and your dating will improve.

Also women tend to want what they think they can't have. That is a rather broad generalization but its right far more than its wrong. If you see a woman, make eye contact and smile. Then go back to what you were doing. Act like it was nothing. If you want meet her stop and say hi on your way to the bathroom. She will probably stop you on your way out, so wash your hands.

Love is the word for commitment. It last far longer than jittery feelings you get when you meet someone thats attractive, stay the hell away from it. Like someone said up post quit auditioning for marriage. And have a good time. If you have and she has fun, you'll move from nice to cool and front door to the boo d waaaa.

[newsdude]

191. Stop caring so much about being polite/nice/whatever

Sounds like you need to clear your head.

You're too wrapped up in it.

[GirlinContempt]

192. This thread is still going?

Holy crap, Batman.