Can I Politely ask (some) Heterosexuals to Not Piss Us Off Any Further???

[La Lioness Priyanka]

Seriously Gay People are Pissed off Right Now!! A lot of us are standing behind the Democratic Nominee regardless of his position toward our rights. If Kerry wins we still dont. To be a liberal is in some ways to understand that you are NOT the center of the universe. We are doing this.

IN return do you think you could atleast pretend our rights are important? Could you quit telling us that its unimportant?

Thank-you

Priyanka

[nini]

1. uh.....

I am obviously missing something.. Who is pissing you off HERE?

or is this why I stay in the lounge and out of GD and GD2004 these days?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

3. look at "MEDIA"

[nini]

7. Good God.. stay away from that crap.

Most of us feel your pain but some are also so desperate to get that asshole out of office for ALL our good. People don't want this issue to be the difference and it sucks that it could be. Unfortunately the other side will play this with the fundie crowd etc... This is why people are freaking out.. because they know it's gonna be used.


Sorry for your frustration but perhaps these are the first difficult steps being taken towards your eventual goal. Civil rights have always been fought for long and hard. Keep your eyes on the prize.

on edit: a bit of clarifying

[La Lioness Priyanka]

4. look at "MEDIA"

[Resistance]

2. good point

like with Palestinians, the Democrats at least pretend that they have legitimate rights (all the while knowingly contributing to their suffering and demise).

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

5. Easy.

I'm a bystander in this election (furrinah) but I'd like to believe I have a spine. Most here have, actually. Backing off on what's GLARINGLY, OBVIOUSLY, IN-YOUR-FACE right for "electability" makes me sick.

Here, let's have a beer. :toast:

[nofurylike]

6. thank you, again, lionesspriyanka. you speak so well! keep on, please! n/t

[La Lioness Priyanka]

8. Thank-you!

[Screaming Lord Byron]

9. Oh, the homos want to get married! oh how cute! just like real people!

That work for ya?

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. Substitute the word gay for black in those arguments, and see what you get.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

11. thanks my lord!!

you are funny!

[liberalhistorian]

36. Exactly!

The arguments against gay marriage are the EXACT same old, tired, recycled bullshit that was used in diatribes against (HORRORS!) interracial marriage, screamed by people who believed they had the right to determine for others their most intimate, private decisions, like who they could and could not marry.

And a lot of repukes are too fucking stupid to see it or, if they do, they just don't give a shit because they know that they can exploit the deep-seated fears and prejudices of otherwise good people.

I think, though, that it's only a matter of time, especially with the outright defiance of many cities and city officials all across the country, who are risking jail and a lot of other unpleasantness to do what is right and what they know is right. Soon, it's just going to become impossible to shut the door on gay marriage and other rights.

[foreigncorrespondent]

10. Well said, my friend.

It is ashame that "some" won't listen though.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

12. too true!

[papau]

13. Was"Passion of Gay Marriages" thread the problem> Kerry said over 1000

rights that come with the word marriage - federal rights plus whatever number of state rights - would be include in "civil unions" in his administration..

So it is not a question of "rights" - just the word used.

And at the moment being for gay "marriage" means you lose election.

So the point of moving the election from the gay marriage wedge issue to jobs is a bad idea? Why?

I suspect I'd be as sensitive as yourself if I was in the group dumped on - but right now the greater good to me - and I hope to you - is beating Bush.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

14. just read my message

i did not say you have to support our rights all i said was be polite.

and i am not being sensitive...we are constantly dealing with homophobic statements these days...its bad enought that the conservatives are doing it but now the liberals seem to be more on their side than ours...

[papau]

17. To the extent it is in my power - your request is granted!

But back to the election and how to win it.

I think anything/topic that takes away from discussion of unfair taxes, deficit destroying kids future, and lack of jobs ends up helping Bush a bit. Granted an election must be a discussion of all the issues - but "unfair taxes, deficit destroying kids future, and lack of jobs" - in my opinion - is what will win it for Kerry, so I'd like Kerry to spend 90% of his speeches focused on those issues.

I have no intention of being impolite - or sounding homophobic even by accident - but can a discussion of which issues should emphasized be allowed?

Thanks

peace

:-)

[Bertha Venation]

37. Damn right you're not being sensitive!

This horseshit has gone on long enough! I am so fucking tired of being looked at as if I brought shit into the place on my shoe. I'm tired of double-takes when people ask me my husband's name and I say "Kathy" with a grin -- thinking that they'll find a little humor in their assumption when all they can see is a pervert that just made a fool of them. I'm tired of my own god damned father -- let alone my country, which is pissing on the Constitution in my name -- refusing to recognize that I'm married.

And to liberals who are quaking in their boots because * and the right have launched their pet "beat the Dems" project, all I can say is: are you a woman? Are you a man? Then act like it! God dammit, people, do what we gay and lesbian and bisexual and transgendered folks have been doing all our lives: pull up your fucking socks and get on with fighting for what is RIGHT.

And if you can't fight this righteous fight, get to the rear and let those of us who CAN, DO IT and please do not attempt to stand in our way!

EQUALITY NOW! If not now, WHEN?! If not me -- if not you -- WHO?!

[Bertha Venation]

35. "And at the moment being for gay "marriage" means you lose election."

Bullshit. We are going to win the election. This issue can't stop the freight train that is utter disgust with how the * admin has fucked up this country.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

61. Don't bother, Papau...people have deliberately muddied this up when

Kerry's LONGSTANDING record as a friend to the gay community speaks for itself.

[vi5]

15. There are many on the left who could learn from the gay community

By and large all of the gay people I know realize what is at stake. And they are putting their weight and their faith in someone who may not be saying 100% what they want to hear. But they are being patient and they are being pragmatic and they are fully aware of what is at stake and are putting their own needs and desires somewhat on the back burner for the greater good.

There are so many other people and groups on the left who would do well to take a look at the gay community and how they are handling this and learn from it.

Once again the people I know in the gay community have earned my respect through what they have to endure and how they are handling it.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

16. thank-you

i am ok with baby steps just dont tell me my goal has no value!

[papau]

19. My God - of course your goal has value - a

hug and kiss (no tongue) - perhaps on the cheek - I am just not wired so I'd appreciate anything more!

:-)

:-)

Now come - we have a drink together

:toast:

:-)

[La Lioness Priyanka]

22. hugs to you as well

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

18. Im pretty fed up too.

I wonder if there are any gay/les boards to hang out at., cause Im getting real tired of straight people.

[absyntheNsugar]

20. Hey! I take offense!

I think Gavin Newsom is quite possibly the greatest mayor SF has ever had, and what he is doing is nothing short of HEROIC. He wins nothing, and stands to lose everything, including his life. Yet he does it because it is THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

And by the way, don't be discouraged by the media.

WE (this is a human rights issue, not just a gay rights one) ARE WINNING!

This is sprouting up all over the country. New Palz! Chicago! Soon in NYC! IN YOUR FACE FUNDIES!

So you gotta see the forest through the trees, we are winning.

Oh, and when Kerry wins, you and I can hold that torch to the mans feet. I think that is in order.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

21. hence the use of the word "SOME" hetero's

[absyntheNsugar]

23. understood...but don't be mad...we are winning

It's like a train coming down the tracks...no way to stop it people just have to get out its way.

(please see: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1194576)

Gay marriage is a reality. And personally I love the whole method of civil disobedience that brought it about.

ON EDIT: will be changed to is...

[thom1102]

44. I like the way Bill Maher put it on his show this week...

Interviewing Sandy Rios, wingnut fundie president of some "concerned womens group" opposed to gay marriage, after completely tearing her and her argument apart, he asked her whether she thought she could, stop the inevitable flood of gay marriage coming, and this is a direct quote, by "sticking her finger in the dyke." I nearly fell on the floor. Later he said that until JFK no one thought that you could get a catholic behind the desk of the Oval Office, and until Clinton to get a jew under it. He is awesome. Ian McKellan, when she was gone said "how can such a nice looking person be so screwed up?" and then read a quote from Jefferson saying that as mankind grows, so should the law to reflect those changes.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

24. also when i said media earlier

i meant the media forum on DU not the media in general..

[oregonjen]

25. I just got off the phone with a right-wing friend

and it was an emotional discussion about gay marriage. I for one have no problem with everyone having the same rights. For that matter, she doesn't either. She has a problem with the word marriage and where gay marriages would be held. In her faith, her church does not allow it. She says it is a slippery slope because will the law force her church to allow gay marriages? I asked her if it were worded a civil union and those ceremonies be performed at county courthouses would she have a problem. Nope, no problem.

Question for gay/lesbians: Would it be okay with you to have your union legalized in a county courthouse, not in a church?

This is a totally honest question. I want to talk with her more on this subject and it would help to have answers from those who are battling for these rights. Thanks!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

26. a church knows full well that they do not have to marry us

as a matter of fact religious institutions dont even have to keep with the equal protections acts...so it would never come down to forcing churches to marry us.

equal protections : race, gender, religion does not apply to churches and some private institutions ...hence white only churches exist

[oregonjen]

28. She feels very threatened though

She also gave the example that if we allow gay marriages, then what next? Fathers wanting to marry daughters, polygamy, etc. I didn't know how to answer that quite frankly. I know its silly, but how do I counter that type of answer?

[Demonaut]

30. Musgrave does have her points though

one at the end of her tail and the others on her forehead, lol Colorado has some colorful characters.....even red

[comsymp]

32. Well,

AFAIK they'll both remain illegal.

Assuming your/her father-daughter analogy refers to an ADULT daughter, I find it hard to imagine that incest will EVER (again) be socially acceptable, for medically/scientifically obvious reasons if nothing else.

If you/she meant the frequently suggested slippery slope to normalization of pedophilia, well- minors have no legal standing in terms of entering into a legal contract (which is what marriage is), so...

Polygamy... :shrug: Seems to me that in order for something to be made illegal, there should be a demonstration of harm- not the presumption of harm- just like the WOUD, for example.

[oregonjen]

33. You're using abbreviations I don't know. : )

What's AFAIK and WOUD.

Also, these examples are hers, not mine. She is a very strong Christian conservative. Me, I grew up in a very liberal household. I don't know how to answer some of the off the wall arguements she proposes.

[comsymp]

34. Sorry- lazy typist

AFAIK- As Far as I Know
WOUD- War on (Unpopular) Drugs- to distinguish from the Govt's hypocritial acceptance/support of other, more dangerous drugs like alcohol, tobacco, etc.

Yeah, it's tough to try to effectively communicate with CC's (Christian Conservatives)- I grew up in a Liberal Christian household, myself, and can't figure the CC's out! Seems to me that if you just remember that Conservatism stems from fear and deal with 'em accordingly you'll be fine.

[geniph]

64. comsymp! Hi!

:hi: I haven't seen you around in ages. Welcome back!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

41. incest and polygamy

are by and large heterosexual issues..do you not think that heterosexual marriages are more likely to bring these about than gay marriages


also people should stop pretending legalizing incest and polygamy will happen to them one morning...protest when people ask for rights to marry their own daughters...in the meanwhile we are not asking for these rights..so quit confusing the issue

peoples fears are not a good reason to deny my right to me

[tigerbeat]

42. "slippery slope" arguments are logical fallacies....

....you lose points for using a "slippery slope" argument in a moderated debate. (at least that was the case way back on debate team). anyone who uses them is being an intellectual slacker and should be called on it. you can find the same damn arguments being used against interracial marriages thirty years ago.

personally i think the gay marriage amendment is a total loser for BushCo and so-called "liberals" who are running scared from this debate need to suck it up. bush wants to change the constitution to deny people rights. the vast majority of people in this country consider the constitution to be a sacred document and are opposed to changing it to address marriage in any form -- no matter their personal beliefs about same-sex couples.

keep hitting bush back with this i say. make him defend it over and over and over again. each time, he'll look more like the bigot that he is.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

27. this is the whole point

the gay marriage thing is gay CIVIL marriage. Its about getting "married" in the county courthouse.

The churches can marry who they want too. I think some of the more liberal churches do marry gays. But to force a church to marry gays when that goes against their doctrine or theogly would be blatantly unconstitutional. No gay person wants this to be forced on churches.

[oregonjen]

29. Thank you!

I tried to tell her that, but she said, "I don't know that! Those people want rights that they can have if the marry someone from the opposite sex. Anyone can get married, they choose not to." She believes it is a choice. I can't convince her otherwise and she is entitled to her beliefs. I love her dearly as a friend, but we disagree fundamentally on a lot of things!

[Alenne]

39. I think your friend and people like her

are not afraid that their church will be forced to marry gays. I think they are afraid of their church marrying gays voluntarily. If churches start marrying gays then their relationships will me equal. They don't want gay people to have a marriage equal to theirs. This is all about keeping gay relationships and gay people marginalized.

[Sentath]

62. There ARE Churches that will marry me

there are churches that will bury me, and there are churches that would like to burn me at the stake ( :

I've stopped worrying too much about any of them.

I'm actually fairly radical on this whole issue and would like to think that this is the beginning of the differentiation in the popular consciousness between legal unions and religious marriages.

{rlg}

[Blue-Jay]

31. Two things:

1. Not that it matters much I suppose, but I'm strongly in favor of equal rights for the GLBT community. I'll admit that it took reading a lot at DU and a few conversations with my friends (gay and not), before I fully understood the true concept of "marriage" vs "civil union". For that education, I'm sincerely grateful. No, I'm not trotting out the "some of my best friends are queer" line. I truly (as I believe most DUers do) believe that this is a fight worth fighting. What's right is right. Period.

2. Yes, there are insensitive people everywhere, even on a progressive board like DU. That said, DU is one of the most gay-friendly and supportive places I've ever seen on the net, aside from places that are solely devoted to GLBT issues.

I know it's difficult, Priyanka. I also know that I could never fully realize the extent of bullshit that you and others have to put up with daily. I think Kerry is probably backing off in order to save his own skin in the general election. I might not agree with that tactic, but I can sort of see it from his perspective. He's covering his ass. Nothing more. Hell, even Kerry's daughter is on record as saying that she fully supports gay marriage, for what it's worth.

The ball is already rolling (albeit slowly) in favor of equal rights, and neither Kerry nor anyone else will be able to stop it. The strides that have been made in the past SIX months would have been unthinkable ten years ago. It's happening, whether the unwashed masses like it or not. The most encouraging news I've heard lately was a blurb on CNN that stated that nearly 60% of the under-30 crowd is not opposed to gay marriage. That's amazingly encouraging, provided the statistic is accurate.

So, go ahead and be pissed off. You deserve that much. Just be cognizant of to whom your ire is directed. You have more support than you realize.

-Jason-

[gator_in_Ontario]

38. I'm with you!

and if I hear that if we are allowed to marry, then people will be "marrying cats, dogs, babies, aliens, palm trees, etc, etc, etc," much more, my head will explode! And that will not be pretty! I promise you that!
I only take heart in the fact that they come up with such ridiculous arguments because there are no logical ones they can make.

[Skittles]

40. WHO IS SAYING EQUAL RIGHTS ARE NOT IMPORTANT

I WILL KICK THEIR ASSES.

[Tinoire]

43. LMAO.

I have no doubt you will Skittles! :toast:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

45. skittles is not skittish

[northzax]

46. just out of curiosity

when did support for Gay Marriage become a litmus test for acceptability on this board? What if I don't believe in the concept of government-sanctioned same sex marriage, for my own personal reasons (which I have articulated many times on this board) I also don't, for my own personal reasons, believe that it should be the number one issue for Democrats this year. So does that, without any regard to why I have these beliefs, or even really what they are (unless you have read up on my posts some) make me anathema?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

47. well what are your reasons to not support equal rights to all?

and i think it became the litmus test when they let the homos in on DU.

[northzax]

54. I will do so privately, if you'd like

I won't hijack this thread with it. And I never said I don't believe in equal rights for everyone, I just come at it from a different angle than you. no matter.

Whatever it may be, I believe there are, at a minimum, a dozen serious issues facing this country more important to the whole than gay marriage. Unequal taxation, unequal economic opportunity, unequal education, misguided occupations of foreign lands, raping of the envrionment, and more. all of these are, quite frankly, more important to me than the right to marry. They may not be to you, that's perfectly fine, but I choose not to be distracted from what's important to me by a cultural war started to wag the dog.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

55. actually those rights are more important to me

which is why i will back the democratic candidate...however just because there are other priorities out there, there is no reason to dismiss our rights either..

[northzax]

58. and that is certainly your right

and if that is the case, you are doing the right thing in suppoting the Democratic candidate (but you knew that) and I certainly appreciate the importance of this issue to you, but I resent the Republican attempt to make this THE issue for 2004, since they can't win on anything else (personally, I also think it will backfire on them, and lead to more acceptance in the longer term, quite a sacrafice for short term potential gain)

[chiburb]

48. Who said litmus test?

She asked for courtesy and consideration, not a blood oath to support her rights-in-full as a US citizen... which she deserves.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

50. well said

i was trying to articulate that but have fever and cannot write properly...going back to bed

[Zero Gravitas]

49. "Seriously Gay People" ?

As opposed to casually gay people? ;)

I don't think the gay marriage issue will cost us the election anyway. Although polls show a majority against gay marriage I don't think that for (except for the fundies) that opposition is particularly strong. I think most Americans are for equal rights for homosexuals. Most haven't given the marriage thing much thought, I would guess that when it first came up they just think its "Silly" for two men or two women to marry. IF they think it through they will come around to approving it. I think we are seeing this happen already.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

51. LOL

[NightTrain]

52. No.

:evilgrin:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

53. why not?

[NightTrain]

59. Err.... I was joking.

n/t

[La Lioness Priyanka]

66. i was too :)

[noiretextatique]

56. "pop culture"

was truly an unfortunate (and inaccurate) phrase. i think someone may be eating those words at this very moment :hi:
a proposed amendment to the constitution = pop culture? more like sharks, kobe, etal, afd nauseum. i wouldn't know...don't touch the stuff myself.

[MurikanDemocrat]

57. FYI - Kerry recently released his complete Civil Union Platform

Kerry Outlines Civil Unions Platform

(San Francisco, California) Sen. John Kerry says he remains opposed to same-sex marriage but would grant same-sex couples all 1,049 federal benefits married heterosexuals enjoy.

The Democratic presidential candidate made the promise at a private fundraising event last Friday in San Francisco but details are just now emerging.

Among the benefits Kerry would extend are the right to file joint income taxes and collect survivor benefits to same-sex couples who unite legally in civil unions, domestic partnerships and even marriage under their state laws according to the Washington Post which spoke with people who attended the meeting.

Kerry Civil Union Platform

My understanding of Kerry's position all along has been that the term "marriage" is rooted in 'rooted' in religion and has religious connotations and thus falls under the separation of the church and state provision of the Constitution. I don't interpret his position as a predjudice that he feels GLBT's should be considered separate but equal as others interpret his position. His platform outlines all 1,049 federal benefits married heterosexuals enjoy, which is contrary to the arguments of many of those who complain that Kerry's position discriminates.

In other words, GLBT's can still get "married", as I interpret this; they need only find a religion, or a church, that will perform the religious ceremony. And yes, there are others besides religious agents who can perform "marriages", but the point is that historically, "marriage" is 'ROOTED' in religion.

I personally think what Kerry has done is very cleverly taken the bite and the biggest sting out of the right-wing bigot argument. Let’s face it – they don’t really give a rat SHIT about the Constitution or about the institution of marriage. They just want to legislate morality and use the Constitution to stick it to gays to appease the religious right and bigots in order to rally them to the voting booth in November. This Amendment isn’t going to go anywhere, because:

THE RELIGIOUS RIGHT AND THE BIGOTS ARE NOT INTERESTED IN A CONTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT THAT STILL GIVES SAME-SEX COUPLES ALL 1,049 FEDERAL BENEFITS MARRIED HETEROSEXUALS ENJOY.

The Democratic candidates have reframed this argument into what it’s REALLY all about. This isn’t going to go anywhere, because it would reveal Bush and the extreme right for the bigots and extremist zealots they really are.

The game is chess, not checkers. And this Amendment will never come to a vote.

Checkmate. :evilgrin:

PS - and no, I am NOT EVER going to say it's not important. Equal rights for EVERYONE is ALWAYS important.

[Red State Rebel]

63. They should be happy to order a steak and get a hamburger?

How kind of him.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

68. actually i think

that this is more of ordering a rare burger and getting a very well done one...its very very close...

[La Lioness Priyanka]

67. yes but i was willing to vote for kerry

even before he said that...

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

60. I'm gay and I completely disagree with your assessment

Kerry's prior actions concerning gay rights are stellar.

[geniph]

65. Well, THIS mostly-straight person

(I don't actually define myself as straight, more as "heteroflexible")

...just joined the Seattle Lesbian and Gay Chorus (they welcome the heteroflexible too)

...joined the Don't Amend rally at the Federal Building in Seattle last Saturday

...signed the Don't Amend petition

...wrote my Congressional representatives

...wrote Gavin Newsom a thank-you letter and posted that as a suggestion in GD

Hope I'm not one of the folks pissing you off! I'm family! I'm a sometime bisexual married to a bisexual, which makes us either welcome or unwelcome in both LGBT and straight groups, depending on people's prejudices.