Why is Dean so popular with the young'uns?

[George_Bonanza]

He's like a movie star celebrity among them. Why? The only viable reasons are that they find him exciting to watch, and they love his style. It can't be his policies. Sure, he allowed civil unions, but which of the nine wouldn't have also had it been in their sole power? To me, that issue isn't that remarkable because Vermont's a small, liberal state anyway, a place that if a civil union bill was ever going to get passed first, it'd be the place. His fiscal stance is conservative, that's well known. What are his other liberal stances? Are they so impressed with his environmental stance? Kerry's environment stance easily out-stacks his, so it can't be that. They can't be for his foreign policy experience because he has none, and other more experienced candidates outstrip him in that aspect, so it can't be that. Then there are the duh issues, like abortion that every Dem agrees on. Some idiotic newspapers see him as a liberal b/c he wants to repeal the Bush tax cuts. First off, which Dem doesn't? Second, calling him a liberal on financial stances is self-contradictory, from all their reporting of Dean's fiscal conservativeness.

This post is an expression of my desire to see more young people support John Kerry. Let's see, John Kerry spends 30 years being a somewhat rogue liberal, and two bills later (Wellstone himself approved the Patriot Act), he's a smarmy Washington insider that can't be trusted? Howard Dean spends a decade being a right-wing liberal and one issue later, Iraq, he's the trustworthy "Democratic representive of the Democratic party?"

I first supported Kerry b/c of hearing of his war experience, and I was sick of people saying, "You have to vote for Dean," on youth forums. Then, to my extreme pleasant surprise, I found out that the upright crusader that Dean was presented to be by these netizens was surpassed by the upright crusader that Kerry was! The more I read, the more I admired this man. The lazy media portrays an introductory painting of him as a centrist lackey. Yet with a little research and discussion, this is FAR from the truth. His investigative crusades in the 70s that nearly alienated him from his party is what presidents should be made of.

[JohnKleeb]

1. you got me George, I am a youngin and for Kucinich

I agree with what you are getting at. I like Kerry better than Dean I think, Kerry was one of the first politicans to push for gay rights, he also has a good anti war history despite being a veteran not that matters, I admire the Kenendy family a lot too and if Teddy K endorses him, I think well he has to be pretty good. Dean isnt McGovern granted but IMO hes not the savior some say he is. I want a 180 not a 90 so to speak, and I think Kerry will give us more like something in the 100's, which makes him better than Dean imo. I think people like Dean just because he opposed the war and hes angry like they are, arent we all?

[cherryperry]

3. Excellent, John! n/t

[JohnKleeb]

4. thank you

We all are angry here. I want a 180 not a 90. Dean has it good on social ideas yet Kucinich surpasses him on that, and on economics well lets just say Kucinich is almost done with his first lap, and Dean is just around the first corner.

[CWebster]

60. If you want a 180, why aren't you supporting

Moseley-Braun?

[Mairead]

68. Because it's not clear where she stands

But she seems surprisingly conservative, compared to Kucinich, McKinney, or Sharpton. So I fear she might give us less than the 180 that John speaks about.

[DrFunkenstein]

74. Check Out Her NPAT

She's the only one I know to actually fill this out.

http://www.vote-smart.org/npat.php?can_id=S0252103&PHPSESSID=6ffe9242b4363ab589fb36f5bae97f66

[Mairead]

80. Thanks for the pointer--regretably, my perception was right :-(

[cherryperry]

2. Right, do you think

it has something to do with his more "intellectual" style or that he is a physician? Perhaps that they don't research his actual record, just listen to media that is obviously unreliable?

Maybe we're simply too old and of other generations so we don't 'get' it ... can some yununs for Dean please post here?

[blm]

6. Dean's style is DEFINITELY NOT intellectual

especially when compared to Kucinich and Kerry. Dean has the hot rhetoric he coopted from Nader 2000 without having ANY of Nader's activist credentials to back it up. Why anyone believes that Dean all of a sudden will fight a populist fight when he chose not to for 11 years is beyond me.

[Cha]

12. What I do know is that you pop up with your snidely whiplash

anti Dean remarks and saying something about kerry being an "intellectual"?

What was so "intellectual" about voting for a bogus, lyin', manipulative attack on Iraq? And now he's talkin' trash trying to get out of it.

[blm]

70. YOU are perfectly civil at all times.

Sorry you're stuck with a hothead, punkass for a candidate.

I think that any Dean supporter who whines about other candidates attacking Dean is HILARIOUS.

Karma hasn't even BEGUN to catch up with Mr. Dean, the lying machine.

[DrFunkenstein]

73. Easy, You Two!!

We're on the same side!

[sfecap]

5. Simple...

Howard Dean has specifically reached out to those who have never been reached out to. The young people feel disenfranchised. They have historically been ignored by political campaigns. Not with the Dean campaign do they feel that way.

Howard Dean has utilized the internet. Not only to communicate very effectively, but to raise funds. Young people by and large have been ignored by Presidential campaigns in the area of fundraising. Presidential campaigns reach out to the affluent and wealthy. The high rollers. The Dean campaign welcomes and actively pursues the people who can only contribute a few dollars here and there. Dean empoweres the younger generation by letting them know that they CAN make a difference, and that their opinions and vote counts. They DO have the power, and Dean proves it to them daily.

(Go to the FEC website and compare the donor amounts between the Kerry and Dean campaigns, on the average Kerry gets bigger donations from fewer people.)

Kerry is viewed with suspicion by younger folks (at least this is what I see and hear). He is seen as "politics as usual". He voted for the Patriot Act, the Iraq War, NAFTA, GATT, etc. Sen. Kerry may have been quite liberal in much of what he supports, but he isn't getting that message out.

None of this means that Sen. Kerry is a bad guy, but it does mean that the Dean team is very effectively motivating those who will work to get their candidate elected.

FWIW....

[SaveElmer]

8. It's even simpler than that

Of all the major Democratic candidates Howard Dean is the only one who has showed any balls in standing up to Shrub. Democratic activists have such a visceral hatred of the current regime (with justification I might add), that he draws interest on that alone. Then, most of his policies, particular in regard to the war and health care appeal to these voters that they stay with him.

[JeniB]

15. You know, that's not even right!

I don't think I've heard any of the candiates agree with Bush. They've all spoken out against him. Yes, even Gephardt! If you have paid any attention at all, Gephardt mentions at every speech that Bush is leading us in the wrong direction. He slams him every chance he gets and just because he voted for, not the war, but the possibility of a war WITH UN backing, you guys have him kissing up to Bush. What kind of balls would Dean have if he ever really had to work with a Republican house and senate? He can't just spend 4 years telling Congress how much he hates Bush. Sometime he would actually have to compromise. How's he going to be at that?

[sfecap]

21. With all due respect...

Gep does kick * in the ass, but he DID support * on the Iraq war. Parse it any way you want, but the picture of Gep's smilin' face in the Rose Garden will never perish.

Gep's "leadership" cost us the House in 2002, and his spineless support of the chimp will forever taint him with many voters.

Like Kerry, the perception (right or wrong) is that they say one thing, (Patriot Act/Iraq) and do another...politics as usual in DC.

[JeniB]

26. Like I said,

Even if Dean makes it to Washington he's going to have to work with these people. Gep voted for the war. He doesn't apologize for it. He's looked at intelligence on this since Clinton's administration. He will be quick to say that he didn't think Bush would go it alone. He spoke with him weekly and he's the one who got him to go to the UN in the first place. I think most people would agree that if we had done this with the full support of our allies, it wouldn't have been an unpopular war. Well, that's the war Gep voted for. It's easy for Dean to say he didn't "vote" for it, he didn't have to. All of the guys who actually saw the intelligence voted for it.

[AmyStrange]

96. hmmmmm...

I was under the impression that Colin Powell was the one who made Bush* go to the UN.

And by the way, my State Rep (Jim McDermott) actually WENT to Iraq and voted against the War Resolution---and I like your quote too, and technically it's ok to quote Gep, because even though he didn't originally say it, you are quoting the person who you heard say it. Does that make sense?




Dave (AmyStrange.com)
http://www.SeattleActivist.org/MyLifeStory.html
DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/
Index of WMD Articles: http://WMD.SeattleActivist.org/

Here are some excellent resources and timelines of quotes and interviews and newspaper article quotes documenting the different things Bush and Co did and said for the last two plus years concerning the war in Iraq and WMDs (and other fun things) from the Howard Dean Website---even if you're not a Dean Fan, these are still excellent resources:

The Bush Administration And WMDs: Then And Now:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=bush_wmd_summary

Niger-Uranium Timeline:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=niger_timeline

Bush and WMD: Assumptions vs. Reality:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Bush_-_Iraq_-_Side_by_Side.pdf?docID=781

The Bush Administration and WMD: What did they know and when did they know it?:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Administration_-_Iraq_Deception.pdf?docID=762

[JeniB]

105. The first time I talked with Gep, I asked him.

I wanted to know about his voting for the war and he told me that he met with Bush every week and he insisted Bush go to the UN and that he finally agreed. He said he tried to tell him that we didn't want to lose the support of our allies and that we should not go it alone. Obviously, Bush didn't give s***. The only thing Gep did wrong was underestimating Bush's stupidity.

[Ediacara]

24. Just an FYI

I believe it was Truman who first said your quote.

[JeniB]

28. Thanks

I didn't know who said it first, but I've heard Gep say it a few times so I guess it's still OK to give him credit. Not sure, so let me know if I'm wrong!

[Ediacara]

30. It's a great line!

and should come out of the mouth of every democrat at least once each day :-)

[lastliberalintexas]

79. Not technically

You should either cite the quote as RG quoting HST, or should simply attribute the quote to its original source.

Either way, it's great that Gephardt uses that line!

[JeniB]

82. Thanks

I needed that!

[Rhiannon12866]

93. BTW, I really like your sig line, as well

No matter who said it!:shrug:

[Rhiannon12866]

95. BTW, what did you think of Gephardt in tonight's debate?

I thought he was outstanding and so did the audience. I would certainly vote for him!:-)

[JeniB]

106. I thought he was great too.

I didn't think they all got the same number of questions though and I didn't like the format. It's great to have you on board!

[Upfront]

19. Amen!

You got it Elmer. I am 62 years young and have nothing bad to say about any of the people running, well, except Lieberman. This Dean guy reminds me of a cross between Truman and JFK. Have you heard him speak? He has it, and just lights up the crowd. I, too, like the fact that he had the balls to run, and take on Bush when it looked hopeless. I know Dennis did too, but Dean somehow got my attention. In my opinion, when Dean stood up, bad stuff started to come out on AWOL. It hasn't stopped yet. Kerry is a good man and would make a great president. He reminds me of Adley Stevenson, great man, but no charisma. I like indepth analysis as much as the next guy, but Kerry loses me. Of course that is not too hard. lol Again, I will vote for any democrat who gets the nod. Bush is going down and I don't care who gets it done but I think Dean has the best shot.:)

[Vikingking66]

87. nice analogy

I think Truman works well - JFK had a very "cool"
style, very humorous and well-spoken. Dean's much
more in the shouting, give 'em hell vein. He's not
like McGovern or McCarthy much, he's angrier in
his style; sort of like Bobby Kennedy when he would
needle his audience and challenge them to do the
right thing when he knew that annoyed them. Dean has
the same cross-appeal between white male independents
and liberal college kids, but he hasn't penetrated
into African-Americans and Hispanics yet.

Adlai as Kerry? Yeah, that sounds about right;
good progressive, but not exciting enough.

Lieberman has to be Scoop Jackson - it fits so good.

Gephart reminds me of Musky, Edwards is a bit like
Lindsay.

Any other parallels?

[Demobrat]

23. That's it in a nutshell.

He refuses to be intimidated. The more he refuses, the more people love him.

[Tinoire]

52. It discourages me to hear you state that because that's misleading!

Kucinich is the one who's shown the most balls of all the candidates. Denounced the Patriot Act from day 1 and voted against it.

Kucinich has on the House Floor gone after Bush time and time again.

Kucinich attended anti-war rallies and denounced the war from day 1.

He didn't ask for a 60 day delay as Dean did, he DENOUNCED it 100%.

So it's discouraging to read a fellow DUer who knows better write that "Howard Dean is the only one who has showed any balls in standing up to Shrub".

Now if you come back saying that you caveatted that with Of all the major Democratic candidates that makes your point even weaker because we are only at the very beginning of the campaign and you have already decided who is a major candidate and who isn't? Nice way of trying to marginalize Kucinich.

Be careful this type of tactic doesn't come back to haunt the Dean camp.

[Mairead]

81. Beautiful response, Tinoire! You tied a bow around it.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

29. You hit the nail...

...right on the head. Exactly!!

[ModerateMiddle]

38. Frankly, this is simply nonsense

you said, "Howard Dean has specifically reached out to those who have never been reached out to."

How exactly did Dr. Dean do this?

He has reached out to virtually everyone with his anti-Bush anti-establishment Dems schtick, and he does it with an anger that perhaps resonates well with young people, but he has NOT explicity reached out to anyone new.

[Vikingking66]

88. I think he's referring to anti-DLC dems

Specifically, a lot of the people who
stayed home in 2002 and who really don't
like the direction of the party.

He also pulls in a lot of independents
and political virgins/spinsters.

[Mairead]

69. How funny. And there was Dennis, the only candidate out there

putting it on the line in Seattle. The only one talking about replacing NAFTA and the WTO with fairly negotiated, democratic trade agreements.

Perhaps that doesn't count with the Dean kids?

[peaceandjustice]

83. Dennis, The Dept. of "Peace" and future GOP White Houses

That isn't getting out there as much as it should. Trade policy has largely been neglected this campaign so far. And that isn't Dean's fault or even really the media's, other stuff is just overshadowing it. The major two issues facing voters right now are Iraq and the U.S. economy. And for a lot of voters, young and old, Dean is clearly preferable on both. Why, you ask? Because Dean manages to be against the war on Iraq without wanting to blow taxdollars on an expensive and, frankly, stupid new bureaucracy, the U.S. Department of Peace. I'd like Dennis Kucinich to explain what happens to that ginat infrastructure he wants to create when he leaves the Presidency and a Republican eventually takes office, because I can easily see it being used to build fences in Palestine, all in the name of "peace".

[jbou]

7. Dean is a safe radical

Kucinich pushes too far, and Kerry is a boring person. Dean yelled and screamed and told people he was listening to them, and he actually engages people through the internet. Dean's campaign has used ideas that people have suggested on their blog, people like to feel involved.

Dean's policies are doable, and better then Bush's. Dean's fiscal conservancey plays to the young kids who keep hearing the government will be broke when they're old. And Kerry is boring.


Did I say Kerry is boring? Gephardt, boring, Lieberman, boring, Graham, boring, but strong on homeland defense, and the war on terror, and he might be Veep, but has no potential to followup Dean's 8 years in the Whitehouse, Edwards has been surprisingly boring, I thought he had something, but all I've seen is solid policy, but no spark, Kucinich is nice to have in the race, in my ideal world his politics would be the political center.


Dean has excited people, and his policies aren't too radical, and he'll be an easy sell to middle america. I'm definatly more progressive then Dean, but I feel the country isn't ready for a totally progressive agenda, and I think Dean fits a nice middle of the road position that this country needs to take after 4 years of shifting too far to the right. After 8 years of Dean, and if the progressive movement can mount a media presence beyond a few magazines then we might have a chance.

Right now Dean is energizing folks, and Kerry and the rest can't get more then 25 non campaign staff to come to a rally. Dean is about to hit the national stage, and i'm waiting to see if his energy can keep spreading, watch Larry King Monday night, read the cover stories in Time Newsweek, read the frontpage of Sunday's Washington Post, and the big events are coming up in sept, oct, nov and dec, monthly nationally televised debates, there is where we see if Dean is for real, and if Kerry can energize anyone.

[Cha]

10. That was interesting, jbou! Thanks for your post.

I like reading other People's perspectives on why they like Dean. :kick:

[Cha]

9. Oh ...I don't know! Maybe they see the same thing in Dean

that I do! A straight talker who wants to lead us into getting our Country Back! Someone who wasn't for that bogus lyin' manipulative attack on Iraq.

Why don't you go to the "Students For Dean" link on my sig line and see what some of the Students themselves are saying? :kick:

[Egnever]

27. Why don't you go to the "Students For Dean" link

Quite possibly the best answer on this thread!

[tedoll78]

11. The difference might be stylistic.

With Kerry and others, they seldom scream. They might raise their voices when hitting the strong points of their speechs, but they don't seem angry - just emphatic.

With Dean, you get screaming. Literally. In a culture where he who screams loudest wins the debate, it works - to a degree. You can see his eyes bulge and his veins pop-out, and he rolls-up his sleeves and goes up on his tippy-toes when he's pissed. Sorta like a rock concert, actually. He really knows how to whip-up a crowd into a frenzy. When he starts screaming at his rallies, the crowd gets to scream back - very much like a pep rally with much higher stakes. It's very visceral, and I think young people eat that up.

Add to that the deserved mantle of "The Internet Candidate", along with the tendency of internet users to trend younger. Always-available streaming videos, being able to get pictures of your pets on the website, being able to get a Dean Alert on your cell phone, the excitement of watching The Bat fill-up over a weekend.. these are little things, but again, they're the sort of little things that young people respond to, and they add-up.

[Cha]

14. I started using the work "visceral" today to apply to my

reason for backing Dean from the start!

I must be very young at heart but I just "eat that up", too!

[Nicholas_J]

13. The key is supported. Not started

Dena is a good politician. He is a good liar. Look for any progressive or democratic style legislation Dena ever initiated and you will come up empty handed.

The young do not ike the slowness or compromise nature of our government, so Dean has capitalized on this, but Dean is not the answer to the fact that the DLC has become so weak. It is politicians like Dean who are the cause of such weakeness. The failure to stand up for democratic ideas, rather than be a political opportunist. Deans upporters beleive all of his campign talk, but there is NOTHING from his past that can be offered up as proof that he intends to abide by his campaign platform.Already Dena is prepareing to abondon the platform of Universal Health. It will go from incremental, to unafordable if he gets into office, just as Dean did in Vermont.

Deans secret has to do with creating a "MOVEMEMT" with all of the warm fuzzies, and group think that all movements and most particularly cults use. Then occasionally, th Swami Howard says some piece of milquetoast wisdom that sounds good but is all pap. If it even looks like you are beginning to question Dean or listen to another candidate, the warm fuzzies very rapidly turn to cold pricklies. The young are very much affected by that kind of peer pressure.

YOu are correct, they are voting for a rock star ot movie star


THere is little of NO actually progressive legislation that Dean ever asked to be initiated, or supported.

Notice how Dean supporters attack any questioning of his the many enormous concessionss that he made to republicans, virtually turning the keys to the state of Vermont over to them when he left.

Perhaps it is that the young are FAR more conservative than the youth of the past, and support a candidate who says the things they want to hear. That ishow it worked in the part with candidate who appealed to youth. The hammered on one issue, like a war, and the youth went with it, though the candidates ended up losing to the Republicans as those candidates were all talk, all campiagn and no substance.

Dean supporters cannot find anything he did in Vermont that was not in direct opposition to liberal or progresive politics. He assisted REpublicans pass virtually every major piece of legislation they wanted passed, and blocked virtaully evert piece of democratic legislation.

And Dean is preparing fopr the betrayal of his campaign promises already,wiith the enormous change of stance he has made regarding universal health care. While campaigning, he never poited to an :inremental policy"

I am glad that the aggressive wing of Kerry's campaign machine has decided to ruin an attack campaign on Dean, rather than to try to stay above the fray. For a while it was decided to try to stay on issues, but it was pointed out than Dean has misrepresented both the DLC and the other candidates and has continually lied about other candidates, even to the point of having to later offer apoligies. They have decided to do a little demanding of th opening of Deans gubernatorial record and make a point of his having soething to hide, and then join in the resocnstruction of a dossier of Dean terms as governor. The DLC has decided that this is a good idea as well, as Dean has taken tens of millions from the DLC and DNC for his campigns in the past and they have grown tired of his
treachery.

[jbou]

18. Dean never claimed he was a liberal/progressive

Dean hasn't fooled this progressive at all I knew what he was all about before I got involved with his campaign. Dean is good at managing both sides and has no patience for ideolouges. In Vermont everyone but 9 percent of the population is covered by health insurance, if Dean can pull that off on a national level he'd get my vote for re election automatically.

The progressive agenda is a great agenda, I agree with 90 percent of it, but this country is not ready to embrace a progressive agenda. I think 8 years of a Dean presidency along with a push for a progressive tv channel, and nationally syndicated radio talkshows that expouse a progressive agenda would help prepare the country to shift to the left. The right wing voices are very loud, and Dean won't take crap from them, he plans on having a whitehouse blog, if you don't think he'll answer the right wing nuts directly then you haven't read enough about Dean's 11 years in Vermont.

I say back your choice during the prmary elections, work hard for that choice, but please, no matter who it is, vote for the dem nominie.

[Nicholas_J]

39. Many many people

Consider Dean a progressive and liberal... Because Dean has run a campaign of dception in two areas. Fist by lying about the DLC and its member and its platform which is EXTREMELY PROGRESSIVE.

And through lies of omission. Dean has stated that he does not mind if people think he is a liberal, as long as it gets him enough votes. AND where does the opinion that Dean is liberal come from. From Deans failure to filrmly state EXACTLY what he stands for. And he does this to with the media as well.

And that is that is the problem:

Actually such stories go back much further. In 1995, Vermont reporters were writing stories suggesting that Dean actually delighted in the confusion about his ideological leanings. In 1995, after making a round of national news shows, Dean seemed almost to brag: "These guys think they're getting a raving liberal. And then they find out I'm not a raving liberal. I'm kind of in the middle and, for example, I'm in favor of workfare. Then they sort of don't know what to say. All the questions they've carefully written down to fry me go out the window."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A4798-2003Jul30.html

Dean has done little to actually let ANYONE know what he actually stands for. He is notorious for saying one thing one day, and reversong himself the very next day, depending on who i=he is talking about. As a Democrat, Dean's continual misrepresentations of himself weakened the democratic party in Vermont BADLY, with Dean promising progressive advances like universal health care, but then dropping them like a hot potato as soon as he won an election. The biggest beneficiary of Denas ultra conservatism, was te liberal Progressive Party. The idea that under a Dean presidency, we will somehoe evolve into a more progressive society, and that the EVIL DLC then will become the power that protects truth justice and the American Way, just isnt the case. Under Dean, Vermont taxationstatred a backwards rened towards regression, and Dean continually cut social programs, and the services that were available under them. Dean used federal exemprion applications to expand medicaid in Vermont, but but made fewer services available, and in some cases people who had medicaid prior to Dean, could no longer to pay for their share of the service after Dean took it over and raised costs, and other simply lost services that would have cost them a years disability paymenys to pay for own their own.

Sorry, the people who will be MOST disappointed with Howard Dean if elected, may likely be many of those who supported him. Many who started supporting Dean originally ended up abandoning the party he was very active in opposing while governor. His own party. IN favor of Republican legislation.

[AmyStrange]

31. And don't forget about the puppies Dean and his supporters kill...

!!! 2 more dollars for the Dean campaign Wooohooo !!!





Dave (AmyStrange.com)
http://www.SeattleActivist.org/MyLifeStory.html
DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/
Index of WMD Articles: http://WMD.SeattleActivist.org/

Here are some excellent resources and timelines of quotes and interviews and newspaper article quotes documenting the different things Bush and Co did and said for the last two plus years concerning the war in Iraq and WMDs (and other fun things) from the Howard Dean Website---even if you're not a Dean Fan, these are still excellent resources:

The Bush Administration And WMDs: Then And Now:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=bush_wmd_summary

Niger-Uranium Timeline:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=niger_timeline

Bush and WMD: Assumptions vs. Reality:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Bush_-_Iraq_-_Side_by_Side.pdf?docID=781

The Bush Administration and WMD: What did they know and when did they know it?:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Administration_-_Iraq_Deception.pdf?docID=762

[SGrande]

16. Not in the West...

At UCLA , the UCLA for Kerry club is at 523 members and the UCLA for Dean club only has 80+

I hear at UCSD there are over 200+ members and I don't even think there is a Dean club at UCSD or SDSU and there is a smaller 50+ Kerry club at SDSU

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

33. A bit of info on SFD

From the SFD page: Students for Dean is a student-run, grassroots organization with 185 chapters in colleges and universities throughout the nation.

Here's a small sample of CA schools with DFS groups, though the number of members isn't listed:
University of California, Los Angeles
Los Angeles, CA
http://www.bruinsfordean.org

Berkeley High School (yup, high school groups!)
Berkeley, CA
Lake Wang, President
E-Mail: [e-mail]

San Jose State University
San Jose, CA
http://www.freewebs.com/sjsu4dean/

University of California, Berkeley
Berkeley, CA
http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~ucbdean

University of California, Davis
Davis, CA
http://www.davisfordean.com

University of California, Los Angeles
Los Angeles, CA
http://www.bruinsfordean.org

University of Southern California
Los Angeles, CA
http://www.uscfordean.org (soon)

August 03, 2003
By Chris Lau
Aggie News Writer

Students have been inspired by Dean's speeches at the Democratic Party conventions and campaign-sponsored meetings to establish the individual chapters on their campuses.

Jill Habig, Mills College chapter president of Students for Dean, said that one of the strengths of Dean's campaign is how he appeals to students and young people.

"He speaks to students without talking down to them," she said. "He speaks of issues that concern students rather than only senior citizen issues, which are important but aren't going to get young people out to the polls or volunteer for a campaign. Young people have historically horrible voting records and he's going to bring people into the voting process for the first time."

Full article at http://www.californiaaggie.com/_articles/7104.taf

[Nicholas_J]

40. Where I live as well

There are about 600 MeetUp Kerry supporters, and about 200 for Dean...In the South. And in area with two naval stations. All of my military neigbors prefer Kerry, and state that Dean would destroy the national security if elected.

To put it less offensively. Many have stated that for a doctors his sense of anatomy was all wrong and he didnt know his glutteus maximus from his humerus

[millsaps28]

17. HIs Youthful spirit ofcourse

For me (22 y/old male), the essence of youth is challenge and change. Most young people challenge the bounds of whatever structure they find themselves in. Whether it be their parents home, a autocratic teacher's classroom, or whatever, young people naturally, and I believe rightfully, think that the change they invision is an improovement on the current situation. whatever that might be. Challenge and change is what Dean is proposing and that is why this youth supports him. He is, or atleast has the perception of, going against the establishment while the other candidates seem like people who are beholden to power and privilege.

[Cha]

20. Thanks for your post. Nice to hear from some of our young

Supporters for Dean!

[Ediacara]

22. Because he fights

After many people witnessed what was for all intents and purposes a coup d'etat in 2000, we expected the Democrats to be a real opposition, we expected them to embody the "fuck you George Bush!" attitude and feelings inside all of us.

Instead we got jerky legislators who cared more about their own polling than what was good for the country.

But you know what? Howard Dean embodies that anger and focuses it in a real way towards George Bush. Dean is kicking Bush, and will continue to kick Bush, and he'll kick him in the nuts if need-be, and he'll kick when he's down, and he'll kick him until his eyes blead.

Because you know what? We're mad as hell, and we'd like someone to kick George Bush, because THAT'S what's best for the country.

I may disagree with a few things Dean says, just as I disagree with things Kerry says (a fine candidate btw, and my #2 choice), and Edwards, and Graham etc for the rest. I choose DEAN because he acts like he WANTS to be president, he says George Bush is the problem and HE is the solution to that problem.

[OHdem10]

25. Dean's style

I think the youngins are attracted to Dean along much the same line as they were attracted to MCCain. MCCain is a conservative but he is not a knee jerk idealogue. He can be reasoned with and at times votes with the Dems. Open and direct--does not appear to be thinking how do I answer this in order to please them--instead this is what I believe and where I stand. Candidates who have spent time in Washigton are always waiting for the Pres to play Gotcha thus they have a habit carefully thinking about an answer and often hedge instead of just being direct.MCCain can be almost gruff at times but people accept this. I think the youngins see many of same characteristics in Dean. He knows what he believes and does not pander. While he is sincere in his anti Iraq stance there is much more which makes them drawn to him and willing to stick with him.
It took the establishment Candidates so long before they would ever criticize Bush. We know the reality is if they had criticized any earlier the Media would have been all over them like a cheap suit
questioning their patriotism--how dare you say something like this a
about a popular President. When Kerry tried early on, Fox came down on him like a ton of bricks and naturally CNN and MSNBC tried to follow suit. What I am getting at at is may Americans and I think the youngins especially were so disgusted with the Dems in the House and Senate for always appearing to be the Me TOO Party. Bush would say or do something and here comes the ME TOOs. --when Dean appeared and unabashedly took Bush head on, the youngins were sold.
Here was somebody with a spine.Remember when Russert tried to cut him down to size with his Gotcha Interview, the Dean Folowers were so mad they took a screw you attitude to Media almost doubled their numbers in a week and support became more fervant.

For some reason the Dems <estabishmentdems> have this idea that appearing cerebral is of utmost importance. You need to be cerebral but you need to have some passion and be a little fun too. This is how they lose out in Congress. Refusing to be confrontational with the Republicans who are so agressive makes them {Demms) look weak.

I gathered from the talk shows today---the Media are getting ready to
go after Dean with a vengeance. The snide little darts were thrown today. "Dean gets uspset too easlily. Doctors do not make good candidates. Remember how they swooned over Frist -- and they wonder why we do not trust them. Dean has got to get himself up to speed on Foreign Policy. Geo Bush could not name the president of Pakistan.
Dean does not like to be challenged was another snide remark referring to the Russert Interview. I hope the Dean followeres are prepared especially the Candidate himself. He neeeds to do the MCCain thing and invite them along and stuff them with Krispy Kreme Donuts.

[AmyStrange]

32. !!! Welcome to the DU !!!

by the way, well said.

Here's a DU slang Dictionary to check out when you got a second:

DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/






Dave (AmyStrange.com)
http://www.SeattleActivist.org/MyLifeStory.html
DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/
Index of WMD Articles: http://WMD.SeattleActivist.org/

Here are some excellent resources and timelines of quotes and interviews and newspaper article quotes documenting the different things Bush and Co did and said for the last two plus years concerning the war in Iraq and WMDs (and other fun things) from the Howard Dean Website---even if you're not a Dean Fan, these are still excellent resources:

The Bush Administration And WMDs: Then And Now:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=bush_wmd_summary

Niger-Uranium Timeline:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=niger_timeline

Bush and WMD: Assumptions vs. Reality:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Bush_-_Iraq_-_Side_by_Side.pdf?docID=781

The Bush Administration and WMD: What did they know and when did they know it?:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Administration_-_Iraq_Deception.pdf?docID=762

[Lizz612]

34. ENERGY!!!

Its all about energy!

People have said this, its not how liberal he actually IS, its that he PUSHES the idea. I don't know exactly what the idea is, but he pushes it. Its all about energy. Us young'uns have short attention spans, we multitask. If you're just gonna talk, and use the same phrases in the same way, were gonna change the channel. Dean is energetic, he holds our attention, and the media's attention.
Its not quite why Jesse won Minnesota, ::don't kill me I'm not saying Dean is Jesse::, but the energy is the same. Strippers were 1st time voters that voted for Jesse, undergrads will be the 1st time voters that vote for Dean.
Its also publicity. Deans out there with his energy and making the papers. For most of my friends who are liberal but not especially active, Dean is the only one of the nine the can name.
And DinoBoy is right (#22). We're pissed. You non-young'uns say it all the time, FUCK BUSH!, but you candidates don't play on that anger as well.
All in all Dean is a great candidate, will he be a good president? I'm not so sure any more...

All this talk about energy and truly liberal democrats makes my political soul ache for Paul. ;( They all want to be Paul, cause Paul had it AND he was real.

[AmyStrange]

35. !!! TOAST to Paul Wellstone !!!

he had it for sure:

http://dug.seattleactivist.org/#wellstonecrash





Dave (AmyStrange.com)
http://www.SeattleActivist.org/MyLifeStory.html
DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/
Index of WMD Articles: http://WMD.SeattleActivist.org/

Here are some excellent resources and timelines of quotes and interviews and newspaper article quotes documenting the different things Bush and Co did and said for the last two plus years concerning the war in Iraq and WMDs (and other fun things) from the Howard Dean Website---even if you're not a Dean Fan, these are still excellent resources:

The Bush Administration And WMDs: Then And Now:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=bush_wmd_summary

Niger-Uranium Timeline:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=niger_timeline

Bush and WMD: Assumptions vs. Reality:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Bush_-_Iraq_-_Side_by_Side.pdf?docID=781

The Bush Administration and WMD: What did they know and when did they know it?:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Administration_-_Iraq_Deception.pdf?docID=762

[nocreativename]

36. Dean's the man

As a youngster (27), when I listen to Dean I think of the Rage Against the Machine song “Take the Power Back”, “it’s time to counter act”, . He is up there taken bush to task everyday. Where are the others? we are getting screwed by Bush and it seems the other D’ s are letting it happen. Kerry et al, voted for the war, for the tax cut, the silly education bill the list goes on and on. How can they really speak out against him when they voted with him?

As far as the environment goes, I work for a nonprofit environmental org, and I did not see Kerry standing up against the healthy forest bill, instead he hoped in line with Dashle and Bingamen with a bush lite bill. Which would gut the National Environmental Protection Act.

Dean’s Environmental stance includes a reinstatement of the Superfund Tax.

I like Dean’s fiscally conservative view. Clinton Balanced the Budget and everyone loved it. I want fiscal security when I get to Kerry’s age.

Dean has a great stance on trade, NAFTA and others should include labor and environmental laws.

I like Dean’s stance on the 2nd amendment as well. The laws should be different for people in rural states than in big cities.

Health Care Health Care Health Care

I think we would be safer if we did not just run around blowing people up to make our buddies richer and again Kerry voted for that.

Kerry reminds me of my Dad. I think Kerry would tell me to tuck in my shirt and take out my nose ring.

Being a veteran means little to me.

Kerry is number 2 though, so if Dean does not get it I’m going to jump on Kerry’s ship. I want give him money, but I will help some.

If Lieberman the Pubie gets in I’m going back to the Green Party.

[AmyStrange]

37. WoW

well said and welcome to the DU:

DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/





Dave (AmyStrange.com)
http://www.SeattleActivist.org/MyLifeStory.html
DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/
Index of WMD Articles: http://WMD.SeattleActivist.org/

Here are some excellent resources and timelines of quotes and interviews and newspaper article quotes documenting the different things Bush and Co did and said for the last two plus years concerning the war in Iraq and WMDs (and other fun things) from the Howard Dean Website---even if you're not a Dean Fan, these are still excellent resources:

The Bush Administration And WMDs: Then And Now:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=bush_wmd_summary

Niger-Uranium Timeline:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=niger_timeline

Bush and WMD: Assumptions vs. Reality:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Bush_-_Iraq_-_Side_by_Side.pdf?docID=781

The Bush Administration and WMD: What did they know and when did they know it?:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Administration_-_Iraq_Deception.pdf?docID=762

[DrFunkenstein]

41. Kerry Is The Rock And Roll Candidate

<>

"He was, apparently, something of a cowboy in Vietnam. His old crewmates remember that he played rock music over the boat's loudspeaker system-the Doors, the Stones, Jimi Hendrix-before they went on patrol. "He starred in that Marlon Brando movie, 'Apocalypse Now,' long before they ever made it," Gene Thorson, a former crewmate, says.

To release the tension after a trip up the river, Kerry would often instigate chicken races between the swift boats, cutting over each other's wakes. He also organized water-balloon battles. Once, his three-boat squadron attacked an American supply ship at night with flares. "The brass was not too happy about that," Kerry recalled. "But what were they going to do to us, send us to Vietnam?"

-Joe Klein's New Yorker profile.
http://www.johnkerry.com/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=6197&security=1&news_iv_ctrl=-1

<>

He is also the Mountain Dew X-Treme candidate: snowboarding, para-surfing, windsurfing, stunt piloting, and hockey are just some of the ways he spends his spare time.

<>

Mild mannered U.S. Senator by day, totally stoked curl-meister by weekend...

[nocreativename]

43. As I said my dad

the Doors, the Stones, Jimi Hendrix. It is all good music and music would be now today with out it. But that does not make him "cooler" in my eyes. He needs to tough'n up a bit.

Dean For America

Washington is Dean Country

[DrFunkenstein]

47. Toughen Up?

You seriously underestimate him. Running a Presidential campaign is not checkers. It's chess and he's a chessmaster. Kerry's the only one with the brains and stamina to beat Karl Rove's machine. Don't forget that besides the whole "war hero/anti-war hero" thing, Kerry also took down mob bosses, BCCI, broke open the Iran-Contra, and would have taken down Ollie North (and possibly Reagan and Bush) if the Dems didn't pull him out.

He fought a grueling, Presidential-level battle against the extremely popular William Weld in 1996. The result of which, for the first time in Massachusetts history, the Republicans didn't even bother to show up the next time around.

When Tom Delay and Rush Limbaugh whined about the "regime change" quote, Kerry put them right back in their place.

And don't forget that Kerry brought up Bush's AWOL status on Meet The Press back in 2000, just three days before the election. Do you really think he's going to sit on that one?

Kerry is going to nail Bush's chickenhawk ass to the wall.

[nocreativename]

51. But he still voted

He has not been tough when comes to voting. Like said before, He voted for the war, the tax cut, the education bill, and he is right in line to help Bush Co. Get rid of the National Environmental Protection Act.

[DrFunkenstein]

55. Do I Have To Go Through This Again?

Ok, fine.

1) You may not agree with the need for disarming Iraq, but Kerry (and most of America) did.

2) Kerry said that he would roll back the tax cuts for everyone that isn't bizarrely rich (like himself and Dr. Dean).

3) Leave No Child Behind was Ted Kennedy's baby. Bush underfunded it. Take it up with Kerry's sister (who teaches at a Boston public school).

4) To say that Kerry is anything but a saint on the environment is just ridiculous. He has lifetime records with environmental groups in the 90's. And he's been at it for 19 years.

[DrFunkenstein]

54. Kerry Also Pressed Hard On Bush's Cocaine Charges

And Harken. That was back when Gore was trying to play nice. Which is why he got Grandpa Joe as his running mate.

But the time for nice guys is over. If nothing else, it's time to teach those chumps that Born in the USA is NOT a Republican song!

[RevolutionStartsNow]

44. It would seem so...

Kerry certainly has all the cool friends (I mean, Dean has Crosby and Nash, but Kerry has Stephen Stills, certainly the coolest of the 3). and cool hobbies, why does he have of a rep as being boring? Is it about being from New England? Is it the way he talks?

This is a serious question, not a knock on Kerry, Dr. Funk. I always hated how Gore was portrayed as boring, because it had nothing to do with his fitness to be president. But why does there seem to be such a gap between the private and the public Kerry?

It would be nice to see Time and Newsweek do Kerry covers next, and use a bunch of these photos. Not that I want him to take any support from Dean, mind you, but I think a lot of people don't see the real John Kerry.

ON THE OTHER HAND: Dean quoted Neil Young in his high school yearbook. Enough said. Neil is God.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

45. ps. Check this out

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/04/politics/campaigns/04DEMS.html?ex=1060574400&en=901d8e2cbf07ebc4&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

[nocreativename]

46. where is his helmet

that's just foolish

[DrFunkenstein]

48. No Helmet Laws In Massachusetts

I don't know about Iowa. But I mean, c'mon. The guy already has a helmet!

[nocreativename]

53. he he he

Ok still he should have on a Helmet. Though it would mess up his photo op. He has to act cool. That it. It seems like a big act.

[DrFunkenstein]

56. He's Been Riding Motorcycles (Sans Helmet) For Years

Men's Journal did an article on him last year, and it brought that up.

What about the rest of his activities - hockey, windsurfing, etc.? Are they just photo-ops he's been planning his whole life?

[DrFunkenstein]

49. Very Interesting Article

I think Kerry has been mostly setting up his organization up until this point. That doesn't make headlines, but it does create the foundation of a viable national campaign. I don't think he'll bring out the cannons until people are paying attention.

[CWebster]

62. Ain't war a blast

Fun and games on the front.

[killbotfactory]

42. He didn't support the foolish Iraq war.

He isn't indifferent on the Patriot act.

He doesn't care about poll numbers on issues before he takes a stance on them.

He's not an ideologue.

He's was for healthcare reform before anybody else, it is what he started campaigning on.

He has charisma.

He's a leader.

He has a good environmental and civil rights record.

He can win.

[burr]

50. It is about making the country better for the next generation....

not destroying it with the materialistic traits of deficit spending and unrestrained maniac mergers in corporate America. It is about providing employment and higher wages for the young voters, and ensuring that Social Security and Medicare will not be destroyed or made insolvent by the retirement of the Babyboomers. And it while this is all going on, again it is about increasing funding for education for the children even as funding will be stretched for the health needs of the aging babyboomers.

Why is fiscal discipline needed now? Because the needs of the future will be extremely high! And it is best take the castor oil before you take the sugar pill.

[VoteClark]

57. They not experienced enough to when they are being fooled

[JohnKleeb]

61. and no offense how is Clark better than Dean

I dont see the young ralling behind a former army general in the name of peace. I am for Kucinich and a self described not Dean's biggest fan.

[Lizz612]

71. thanks for the vote of confidence ::glare::

I know in my heart that its true, but really, isn't it better that there out there, thinking about this stuff and VOTING, than say working and studing all day, coming home and playing video games and slipping into mindlessness.
Yeah, we yung'uns might get fooled, but at least were gonna learn something.

[CWebster]

58. Dean represents hope

Kerry doesn't connect well.

[George_Bonanza]

59. To nocreativename

With all due respect, I have to extremely disagree with your views. Your stance would be correct, if Kerry and Dean's political careers startly just a couple of years ago. Equating Howard Dean with Rage Against the Machine just emphasizes my frustration with some of the misinformed young voters. All they hear is "Iraq, Iraq, Iraq!" The world did not begin and end with Iraq in 2003.

Just look at Kerry's record. If anybody looked at his record, they'd be ashamed of themselves for thinking he's one of those "me-too" Democrats, because if they did, they'd be plain ignorant and stupid. He has ALWAYS stood up for small business over big business. He has led some of the biggest investigations like the BCCI and Iran-Contra and Oliver North. He was even subdued by his fellow Dems because they thought he's go too far. He DOES support NAFTA, always has, but there is an amendment bearing his name, the Kerry amendment, that was brought forth to bring moderate reforms to NAFTA to eliminate the injustices of it.

Kerry has never been one to shy away from Bush criticism. It's just that the stupid media hasn't shoved it in people's faces. After Sept. 11, Kerry was one of the few politicians that was brave enough to criticize Bush on his foreign handlings. He went on Time magazine to challenge Bush on the environment. Before and after the Iraq resolution bill, he was adamant that the president be patient and seek international help. As for the Patriot Act, there's almost a 100% chance that Dean would've voted for it too, being the centirst he is, since most of the Dems did, including the late great Paul Wellstone.

Any informed person would know that Kerry's biggest strength is his environment record. He's a politicians praised and loved by important eco groups such as the League of Conservation Voters and the Sierra Club. I believe he's an honourary member of one of those clubs, but I forgot which. He has been heavily involved with the environment since the 70s. You can credit his efforts for starting Earth Day, as well as the Clean Air Act, and I'm sure there are many more notable environment-related things he championed. If there's one thing Kerry is nearly untouchable in, it's the environment.

"I think we would be safer if we did not just run around blowing people up to make our buddies richer and again Kerry voted for that."

Ths is utter nonsense. Kerry has always stood for small business over irresponsible big business. Kerry wants to repeal Bush's tax cuts, all but the child benefits which he believes is a good idea. Kerry's determined to strengthen the lower and middle classes. In fact, there's a petition he started going around the internet regarding working jobs that are about to be lost because of Bush.

"Kerry reminds me of my Dad. I think Kerry would tell me to tuck in my shirt and take out my nose ring."

I'm sorry, this is utter bullshit. It adheres to the media-driven image of Dean's anti-establishment caricature to Kerry's DLC lapdog lackey. Should Kerry win the White House, he'd be the first EXTREME SPORTS LOVING president we ever head. He's a motorcyle and windsurfing maniac. He raced in the rivers of Vietnam. He marched with John Lennon. Hey, if anyone's the "square" here, it's Dean and his Park Avenue upbringing. Not trying to Bash dean, but setting the truth here.

"Being a veteran means little to me."

It means a lot to me. I feel that only one who has fought and been scarred by war can truly understand it and its true malevolence. Protesters may talk big of peace and love, but their credibility goes way north if they have actually seen war and lost from it. If we have a decorated war hero who protested the very war he fought in, for a president, we not only have an experienced military head up there, I feel we also have a man who will be hesitant to cause wars as well. I can't wait to see how Kerry would attack Bush on his non-existent role in Vietnam, when his country needed him.

You're obviously no fanatical Deanite, but there were some statements you made that sort of made me mad.

PS A CNN report said that Dean was popular among the "yuppies," the upper middle class professionals with post-graduate degrees. They concluded this made Dean the thinking man's candidate. Nuh uh. If anything, his popularity comes from his avoidance of that image. His image is not the thinking man's candidate, it's the passionate man's candidate. Again, TV reporting is ages behind the internet when it comes to election 2004. Kerry's the thinking man's candidate, the man with whom you have to dig a deeper behind the TV appearances, talk shows, and article quips to fully appreciate and admire. If the country's so hungry for a against-the-grain liberal, then I sincerely wish Kerry would unleash his history to America. He hasn't done enough of it, not by a long mile. I hope he's saving it for the home stretch. It's still too early, I guess.

[CWebster]

63. You said it

"I feel that only one who has fought and been scarred by war can truly understand it and its true malevolence".

But Kerry,( and the Washinton Post reporter on "This Week" revealed that congress has complete access to the intelligence that the intelligence was suspect), had other considerations which took priority.

[George_Bonanza]

64. It's really quite pointless

To compare Kerry's vote on Iraq with Dean's NON-vote. Look, if we were going by words only, like Dean is, then Kerry's just as much as an "anti-war" candidate as Dean. Kerry was critical of a rushed war, starting from the nineties. He continually warned Bush about unilateral strikes, before and after the bill. So if words are all what matters, like how Dean supporters feel like, then Kerry and Dean are right on the same spot, and if anything, Kerry's above him. Unfortunately, Kerry had to actually vote in the matter, and b/c of Dick Gephardt, the bill couldn't be refined. I guess Kerry could've opposed it anyway, but he made a political move, just like how Dean signed the civil unions as a political move.

It's illogical to assail Kerry for his vote in order to uplift Dean, because Dean had no obligation to put in his thoughts for real, as in a vote for a bill. All he had to do was talk and sit back while congress did the real work.

[JohnKleeb]

66. George you're right but let me bring something even more interesting up

Kerry has the more anti war past actually, he did investagating on what Reagan did in the 80's well Dean is quoted as saying he had mixed feelings about that. I am not for either of them yet but just in case DK doesnt get the nod, I like Kerry better.

[CWebster]

78. You said it

"...while congress did the real work."

But they didn't.

[George_Bonanza]

84. So Dean did the real work?

The Democrats were trying to limit Bush's power but they were cut down.

[LuminousX]

89. Yawn

The fact of the matter is, Kerry has to explain to the youth of America a vote that the youth strongly disagree with. Dean doesn't. Call it unfair, aw shucks and kick dirt all you want, the fact is, the 'youth' of today see in Kerry a hypocrit, one of those guys who's been in Congress forever and hasn't really done anything noteworthy. Argue his legislative history all you want, but your average 18-24 year old voter isn't going to know anything about that. It is Kerry's duty to tell them, and make it relevant. And if it is too far in the past, he'll be asked, what have you done for us lately... oh right, gave us the Patriot Act and the war.

[George_Bonanza]

91. Then the youth are ignorant and perhaps stupid

They don't bother to research history. All they care about is the latest thing on the evening news. Never mind that almost anybody could become an overnight liberal with the right campaigners. The true way to determine a righteous liberal is to see his/her past, and how often they stuck up for what they believed in in the face of intimidation.

"oh right, gave us the Patriot Act and the war."

That's a rather simplistic and superficial belief that many people who are ignorant of politics will conclude to (I'm not referring to you, everybody on DU is interested in politics). They will not know that Kerry was trying to toughen up the bill on Bush and had he and his mates not done so, Bush wouldn't have even needed to acknowledge the UN's existence.

[LuminousX]

94. It's up to Kerry and his people to educate them

But calling them stupid is not going to win their votes.

[George_Bonanza]

98. You're right, Luminous

I hope Kerry starts showing the real John soon.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

65. He's treats them with respect!

Dr. Dean wants to meet with everyone! Just like Carter did in 76'. He wants to hear everyone's problem's and help them. He projects himself as a sincere populist, which he is.

[UrbScotty]

67. Why did baby boomers like JFK?

Why did their parents like FDR?

Many young people like Howard Dean's style. He's enthusiastic, he's honest, and he stands up for himself, for his party, and for his country.

[DrFunkenstein]

72. Dean Is No Jack Kennedy

John was classy, Dean is pugnacious.

<>

With Bobby.

<>

With a young Bill.

<>

With a young Kerry.

[JohnKleeb]

76. I think we have a better chance at a second camelot with kerry

than dean imo. Dean wouldnt be horrible but he wouldnt be what Kerry would be imo.

[Ripley]

75. I congratulate Kerry for what you said...

He is a guy that might be President. I admire him but not his trolls.

What I find interesting about Dean is his mouth saying things like: "I don't like preachers leading this country."

[SoulLight]

77. I know

He's got Balls. Something the others just lack. It's also what makes him so popular among white males. It isn't that hard to figure out.

[LuminousX]

85. The Potential

Dean represents amazing potential. The others have been part of the Washington system so they are seen as boring. If they had the ability to do anything worthwhile, why haven't they done it? Yes, I do know some of the various records and they have done a lot but we are talking about the appeal to the young who only know what was in today's paper and on the front page of Yahoo.

Dean has that underdog appeal, has the energy and passion that he willingly exhibits whenever he speaks, and he keeps saying aloud the things the young keep thinking.

[Vikingking66]

86. I'm seeing a lot of bickering here

As a "young'un" who once supported Kerry but now
supports Dean, I'd like to clear some things up.
If you go to any college-age Dean support and say what do
you think of Kerry, they'll say he's basically
a good liberal, but he sold us out on the Patriot
Act and on the Iraq War. That's the only big substance
differential; Dean's fullout against the war, Kerry
makes the right noises, but actually voted for the war.

The major thing for me is a matter of approach and respect.
For most young people, the internet is their generational
territory. Dean has used the internet not just to ask for
money and send out his platform, but to engage people in
a discussion. He's shown an openness to ideas and to young
people in his campaign organization. When you donate money
to beat Cheney and you get an email from Trippi the next hour,
or when you go to a MeetUp and hear Dr. Dean actually cheer
what you've done, it makes you feel as if you're important.
Dean's winning among young people because he's saying you're
important, you can make me win, you can beat the Old Guard
(both Bush and the DLC, which doesn't really appeal to kids
who don't remember Mondale or Dukakis). Dean's grassroots
campaign emphasizes communal participation and intellectual
enthusiasm, which is what a lot of us don't get from traditional
campaigns.

Kerry has made some efforts to reach out to youngsters,
but they're largely cosmetic. He drives a Harley or talks
about Nam, but you'd never see him focusing on some kid
surfing the web, making sure that he reads the blogs, gets
the emails, sees the streaming video. His campaign manager
focuses on cultivating elected officials and party loyalists,
not college students.

Kerry's also not very exciting in his delivery - he's calm and quiet, and that makes him sound old and tired. That's not very appealing.
Dean speaks directly, simply, and with lots of "vigah." He's best
as a speaker when he's high-energy, and he uses a shouting style -
"You have the power!" - that gets people moving and energized.

That's about it.

[George_Bonanza]

90. To vikingking

Did Wellstone sell us all out when he voted for the Patriot Act? This is old news. If a liberal like Wellstone voted for that, it's a very likely scenario that a centrist like Dean would vote for it too. Almost all the Dems voted for it. And Kerry has said that when the bill runs out in a few years, he will not seek to renew it. And if it does renew, he will fight to either limit its powers or eliminate it completely. I think a lot of Dems voted for it b/c it was in the aftermath of the terror and confusion of 9/11 and they felt they needed to do something.

"Dean's fullout against the war, Kerry
makes the right noises, but actually voted for the war."

Dean's against the war. Yes. But based on what? His words? Kerry's been speaking out against unilateral strikes on Iraq since the first Gulf War. If you believe and adhere to just words and sound bytes, then Kerry's an even bigger and sincere anti-Iraq war than Dean. However, Kerry had the responsibility to actually take part in the process, unlike Dean, who could just sit back and take potshots. Blame Gephardt and Lieberman for caving into Bush. Without Kerry and other good senators, Bush wouldn't even needed to make his case to the UN.

"Kerry's also not very exciting in his delivery - he's calm and quiet, and that makes him sound old and tired. That's not very appealing.
Dean speaks directly, simply, and with lots of "vigah." He's best
as a speaker when he's high-energy, and he uses a shouting style -
"You have the power!" - that gets people moving and energized."

That's funny that use the word "vigah", because I believe it was used to describe Kerry by a person who saw the Massachusetts-Kennedy connection in Kerry, who's endorsed by Teddy Kennedy as well. Kerry has "vigah" too, it's just that it's not the angry-man style of Dean. Whoever shouts the loudest is not the most correct or wise.

Yes, Dean gets people energized. But so does Bush, among his many supporters. We have to look past rhetoric and look at policy and history, and in that, Kerry is heads above the rest IMHO.

[JohnKleeb]

92. George totally right on

I think Dean would have voted for the patriot act and in fact he has NOT advocating abolishing it and he says his only problem with it is that it is in Ashcroft's hands, now I like John Kerry too even though he voted for and to my knowledge hasnt spoken out yet I hear he is questioning their holding of prisoners. Kerry also has an more anti war history too George, remember he investagated Iran Contra as a young senator, and Dean is quoted as saying he had mixed feelings. I considered Kerry as a backup to Kucinich, when I heard that Teddy K endorsed him, and the fact that Kerry not Dean is more liberal overall, and a lifetime democrat I think I can trust them more really, and also Dean didnt speak at one anti war rally even though he had resigned as Governor of Vermont, now Kerry wasnt like me on the war, but Kucinich was and you know what he did, hes an active congressman and he spoke at rallies. It also is telling to me, that Dean just came out of no where it seems, he really wasnt liberal as governor. I know Kucinich cant win but Kerry is still pretty liberal and can win.

[George_Bonanza]

97. Thanks John

I appreciate all your insights. Your views are similar to mine, I think, except your number one candidate is Kucinich and mine is Kerry.

I'd like to know when and where Dean said he had "mixed feelings" about Iran Contra and the Reagan era in general. It'd be a great boon to me.

[JohnKleeb]

99. I have to find it some where but I'll be sure

I like Kerry as a realistic and Kucinich as an idealist if only Kucinich got Dean's momentum,
http://www.time.com/time/columnist/klein/article/0,9565,464429,00.html
"Such sentiments have been misinterpreted by assorted Beltway savants as a leftward lurch by Democratic Party activists; it seems more a reaction to the rightward lurch of the Republicans. Dean, who has been mischaracterized as the reincarnation of George McGovern, is certainly no traditional liberal or even a traditional dove. "I told the peace people not to fall in love with me," he told me over breakfast in Manchester, N.H., last week. He said he had opposed Vietnam, but he had supported the first Gulf War, the interventions in Bosnia and Kosovo, and the war in Afghanistan. In the 1980s he had "mixed feelings" about Ronald Reagan's support for the contras in Nicaragua and opposed a unilateral nuclear freeze. "I'm not a pacifist. I believe there are times when pre-emptive force is justified, but there has to be an immediate threat, and there just wasn't in this case."
and more
A sense of aloofness has always been a Kerry problem—"You shouldn't hold John's looks against him," former Senator Bob Kerrey once told me—and Dean's chesty informality has only exacerbated Kerry's air of dour Brahmin solemnity. In truth, he isn't so much aloof as he is courtly, in a formal, afternoon-tea sort of way. The shoutathon of modern politics discomforts him. He is a serious, experienced, thoughtful man; his policy speeches have been among the best of any Democrat's. But he is also a cautious man who has surrounded himself with an overstuffed stable of consultants and pollsters—the very same geniuses who brought you the dreadful 2000 Gore campaign and the Democrats' even more dreadful 2002 campaign. Their presence reinforces Kerry's tendency to carefully edit every word he utters. His campaign seems massaged, tactical—an act of marketing rather than of conviction. His Senate vote authorizing the war in Iraq is Exhibit A. Unlike Dean, Kerry has longtime antiwar credentials. He investigated the Reagan Administration's support for the contras and opposed the first Gulf War. He turned more hawkish in the 1990s, supporting Bosnia and Kosovo and of course Afghanistan, but the question persists: Did Kerry vote for this war with his heart or with his ambition?
That really bugs me. Who's Kerry considering as a VP? a woman? a southerner? a minority? I wouldnt mind a midwestern populist like maybe Tom Harkin or a southerner like Max Cleland.

[killbotfactory]

101. You're confusing Dean with Kerry and Edwards

Kerry and Edwards both say the only thing wrong with the PATRIOT act is that Ashcroft is in charge. I read what Kerry wrote to moveon.org about it, and he seems pretty indifferent.

Dean has called for the repeal of the unconstitutinal parts, such as library and video searches and holding people without legal representation.

[JohnKleeb]

102. my bad

and the whole patriot act is illegal, my bad.

[DrFunkenstein]

103. That Contradicts What I Heard Kerry Say On C-Span

He said that there was much good with the Patriot Act for improving communications between departments, and gave some chilling examples of what happened because of bad communication.

But he said that there were parts of it that were Constitutional "over-reach" that needed to be repealed. Not surprising, considering he was the subject of two major investigations (one by Nixon, the other by Oliver North).

If you could provide a link to his Move On statements, I'd surely appreciate it.

[killbotfactory]

108. Here you go...

My problem with his answer is that he did not mention the searches, says it is Ashcroft who is overreaching not the PATRIOT act, says he supports the sunset provisions but doesn't mention if he would reauthorize the bill.

- - - - -
http://www.moveon.org/pac/cands/kerry.html

We must never forget that the rights guaranteed us in the Constitution are precious, and one of the very first things that the terrorists we’re fighting would destroy. We do not need to give away our personal liberties to protect our country. We must defend our freedoms and defend ourselves against terrorism.

John Ashcroft has taken away far more liberties than this act ever authorized and that is wrong.

For example, The Bush Administration does not have the authority to indefinitely detain U.S. citizens as “enemy combatants” without charging them with a crime and without allowing them access to an attorney or any judicial review. I am outraged that the Justice Department’s has required tens of thousands of Muslim and Arab visa holders – students, workers, researchers, and tourists – to register with the government and be fingerprinted and photographed. This sweeping plan, proposed without any consultation with Congress, does little to provide real protection against terrorism. Instead it stigmatizes innocent Muslims and Arabs who pose no danger, and discourages those who want to support our law enforcement and counter-terrorism efforts.

I strongly supported including a sunset provision in the Patriot Act, which will cause the Act to expire unless Congress reauthorizes it. The Bush Administration reportedly plans to introduce a second “Patriot Act” – we have learned from the first Patriot Act that the last thing we need is John Ashcroft rewriting the Bill of Rights. I am alarmed by what has been reported to be part of “Patriot Act II” and I will very carefully review any new proposal and fight to ensure that it does not violate civil liberties. As President I would fight hard to win the War on Terrorism. But in the process, I would never forget the liberties and freedoms that we are fighting for in the first place.

[LuminousX]

104. Kerry's Letter

http://www.moveon.org/pac/cands/kerry.html

I'm looking it over and I don't see any mention of the Patriot Act... Is this the right letter?

on edit:
I see the section now. In the interview part:

Kerry on the Patriot Act:
2. FREEDOM (see what other candidates said)
The enactment of Patriot Act I is a dangerous erosion of civil liberties in the United States. The proposed Patriot Act II is even more frightening. The purpose of both pieces of legislations seems to be the stifling of dissent rather than improving security in the U.S. If elected would you revisit the Patriot Act with the view of revising or repealing it? If we cannot speak without fear, we aren't living in a democracy.
--Bonnie Mulligan, Supervisor (June 11, 2003; Lanham, MD)

We must never forget that the rights guaranteed us in the Constitution are precious, and one of the very first things that the terrorists we’re fighting would destroy. We do not need to give away our personal liberties to protect our country. We must defend our freedoms and defend ourselves against terrorism.

John Ashcroft has taken away far more liberties than this act ever authorized and that is wrong.

For example, The Bush Administration does not have the authority to indefinitely detain U.S. citizens as “enemy combatants” without charging them with a crime and without allowing them access to an attorney or any judicial review. I am outraged that the Justice Department’s has required tens of thousands of Muslim and Arab visa holders – students, workers, researchers, and tourists – to register with the government and be fingerprinted and photographed. This sweeping plan, proposed without any consultation with Congress, does little to provide real protection against terrorism. Instead it stigmatizes innocent Muslims and Arabs who pose no danger, and discourages those who want to support our law enforcement and counter-terrorism efforts.

I strongly supported including a sunset provision in the Patriot Act, which will cause the Act to expire unless Congress reauthorizes it. The Bush Administration reportedly plans to introduce a second “Patriot Act” – we have learned from the first Patriot Act that the last thing we need is John Ashcroft rewriting the Bill of Rights. I am alarmed by what has been reported to be part of “Patriot Act II” and I will very carefully review any new proposal and fight to ensure that it does not violate civil liberties. As President I would fight hard to win the War on Terrorism. But in the process, I would never forget the liberties and freedoms that we are fighting for in the first place. "

[killbotfactory]

100. Sit back and take potshots, huh?

Like when the Kerry campaign slandered Dean, saying he wanted to give the UN a veto on national security, because Dean said we should work through the UN? Or how they are saying Dean can never win because he was against the Iraq war? Yeah, that sounds like a true champion of multi-lateralism.

It's really cute how Kerry claimed we should never go to war unless we have to, wanted more time for inspectors, wanted to work throught the UN and said Bush's efforts were horrible, and then supported the war anyway after Bush violated all the conditions for which Kerry gave for supporting military action.

Kerry had responsibility and totally blew it.

[George_Bonanza]

107. Kerry slandering Dean

Dean's been the most active slanderer of any of the Dems. Kerry's been mostly directing his focus on Bush, like he should. Of course, who notices this but pro-Kerry people.

"It's really cute how Kerry claimed we should never go to war unless we have to, wanted more time for inspectors, wanted to work throught the UN and said Bush's efforts were horrible, and then supported the war anyway after Bush violated all the conditions for which Kerry gave for supporting military action."

Let Dr. Funkenstein explain it to you all over again.

[killbotfactory]

109. Why? I've had this arguement before...

Kerry attacked Dean during the SC debates and it backfired. Before and after that he's just had his staffers attack Dean.

And that fact is that while Kerry slammed Bush for bungling the lead-up to war, he still supported it even though it was not truly multilateral, was not a last resort, and violated many of the requirements Kerry placed for his support of the war when he voted for the Iraq resolution. This is why he is accused of waffling, btw.