Awesome debate: No one took up Kucinich's challenge

[genius]

Kucinich asked the candidates to let the union audience know where they stood on the issue of repealing NAFTA and the W.T.O. NOT ONE took up the challenge.

Kucinich came across as strong, decisive, a real leader. He presented real plans for helping the workers of America.

Dean said he was not for a Social Security retirement age of 65, 68 or 70. One person viewing the debate with me jumped up and asked if he wanted the benfits to start at 80?

The audience I saw the debate with consisted of individuals ranging from pre-voting to Senior Citizens. The general reaction was that Kucinich was the clear winner. Moseley-braun also came off very well.

Sharpton was good except that he had not done his homework on "No Child Left Behind." Kerry and Edwards did fairly well. They had to explain around their voting record. Edwards kept reminding people of his blue collar roots. He pointed out to the audience that his and Kucinich's records were the best on labor issues.

Dean seemed a little out of it. Lieberman and Graham did about the best they could for a union audience.

[mmm]

1. K is the only real candidate

all the others are BS as usual

[BeatleBoot]

2. "No one took up the challenge"

Because he was the last to speak on the subject. No one got a chance to respond. They moved on to another issue.

[revcarol]

4. They all had their closing statements.

If they thought it was important, they could have put in one extra sentence.Kerry: NAFTA AND THE WTO ARE GREAT. I VOTED FOR THEM.

Whoops, that's two sentences.

[LWolf]

3. Dennis has the issues.

And, as for Dean's response to the retirement age issue:


http://www.socialsecurity.org/dailys/07-02-03.html

After hard questioning on the Sunday, June 22, airing of Meet The
Press from host Mr. Russert, Dean suggested the following options
for Social Security:

Mr. Russert: Would you raise retirement age to 70?

Dr. Dean: Social Security, I—the best way to balance Social Security
budget right now… is to expand the amount of money that Social
Security payroll taxes apply to. It's limited now to something like
$80,000. You let that rise. I also would entertain taking the
retirement age to 68. It's at 67 now. I would entertain that.

I missed part of the debate when a visitor showed up at the door. I think I missed the whole education segment, if there was one. I can't believe that's what I missed! What did Sharpton, and the others for that matter, say about NCLB???? Help!

[genius]

5. Are you saying Dean lied when he denied this statement in the debate?

Wow. Why am I not surprised.

[revcarol]

8. Yes, he lied. He supports retirement at 68

for those born in 1940(?) and later.He's trying to weasel and waffle on the issue.

This is an issue that is important to manual laborers, mill workers, maids & domestics, people who are on their feet all the time like waitresses, meat processors...a LOT of labor, who die much earlier because of their past working conditions and lack of medical care during their working years. SO, 'fess up, Dean.

[Nicholas_J]

10. Thats the point

All of the candidates have decided to continually bring up statements made by Dean, have Dean deny them, nad have the press verify that Dean did make the statement in the not too recent past.

The game has become, now we attack Howard, for all of the attacks he performed on us for the last year. You can expect EVERY candidate to bring up some statement Dean has made, that is a direct retreat from something he has said somewhere else. I fully expect one or two of them to go after Deans comments about incrementally working towards universal health care.

The DLC candidates are now simply let the truth work for them. They are going to remind the public at every opportunity of statements Dena has made, and then have him deny them, and then let the press go trying to figure out if Dean did or did not make such comments in the past. The more this happend, the more Dean will appear to be the oppostunist, changing his point of view as yhe polls chang, or depending on who he is talking to. That statement about raising the retirement age is not going to get ANY support from ANYONE in organized labor.

Next, Dean health care mambo.

[ProfessorPlum]

15. saying you have to entertain something as an option

is not the same as saying you support it.

This country is in for some hard times since the Chimpy One has gone on his wrecking spree. "Entertaining" options for how to fix it is responsible, not cruel. I feel bad for all of those manual laborers, mill workers, maids, waitresses, and all the other workers, blue collar and white, who will have to retire later than planned. I also feel badly for those people who have already had to delay their retirement, or worse yet, come out of retirement to cover their costs.

But you know what? I feel somewhat less bad for those who voted for Bush.

[killbotfactory]

16. Thank you.

Saying Dean supports raising the social security limit, because he would "entertain" raising it as a last resort, is like saying Kucinich supports the war on Iraq because he would support military action if Iraq was proven a threat to the US.

[ProfessorPlum]

20. de nada

this board is getting me down. Maybe we should raise the retirement age and use the extra money to fund logic classes in high school.

[DrFunkenstein]

26. Like Bill Clinton With Monica

He said he'd entertain her. He never said he'd support her.

[MercutioATC]

78. Inflammatory, but funny...

:evilgrin:

[Mairead]

61. But he didn't say 'last resort', did he?

[killbotfactory]

70. I thought that was implied..

Since he said that SS will be fine until 2040 or whatever and all we really need to do is raise the amount of income the SS tax applies to.

[Mairead]

71. I don't like 'implied', it's too easy to disclaim

Which is why I give Dean nearly full marks for saying raise (I don't think he actually said 'eliminate') the pay ceiling from which fica can be takein. I especially give him nearly-full marks because, to my knowledge, Dennis has _not_ said that. Perhaps Dennis feels it should be taken as read, but, again, I don't trust implications when statements can be made.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

21. Dean is not just saying what people want to hear

He said on MTP that he would entertain the option. He likely knows that wouldn't be popular, but might be necessary.

However I will admit that Dean will have a problem from time to time because some of his positions are nuanced and don't fit with the labels he's been given. Makes it easy to attack him, or to misunderstand him, if you don't read what he actually said or did.

[ModerateMiddle]

35. Howard Dean is NUANCED! omg!

oh my gawd, Howard Dean has a NUANCED position on something!?!?!

[DrFunkenstein]

39. If You're Nuanced, You're Not Paying Attention

If you can't ignore any and all moral subtleties, then you don't deserve to be commander-in-chief.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

47. Okay, okay....I give...

Maybe "nuanced" was a bad choice of words. :)

What I meant was that Dean's positions cannot always be categorized or explained with a few words. This is true for all of the candidates with various issues.

The positions are more complicated than the press (or the public) has patience for, in my opinion.

[MercutioATC]

77. "Entertain" vs "Support"

You DO understand the difference, right?

Dean does not "support" nor has he ever "supported" raising the SS age to 68 or 70. He has stated that, if necessary, he would ENTERTAIN the idea of raising the age from 67 to 68.

[revcarol]

7. Rerun at 11.

In his closing statement(delayed 25 minutes) DK said he was against PRIVATIZATION OF GOVERNMENT JOBS. (THE ONLY CANDIDATE TO MENTION THIS biiiig LABOR ISSUE.)Got a big cheer there, and big applause at the end.

[Nicholas_J]

6. Notice on the poll as to who did best

On DU of courses they say Dean, even though as you say, it seemed out of it.


I compare this to a poll from a ew days ago asking the age of people on DU, which has the vast majority of DU'ers falling between 20 nad 30, exactly the group from which Dean draws almost all of his support.

[Tinoire]

12. Important point about the DU demogrpahics

which is why I don't place much faith in the support percentage here.

I've been watching DK's numbers steadily grow on unfreeped polls where you have to be registered to vote and where about half of the votes are supported by thoughtful issue-oriented comments.

So, watching those 2 polls steadily grow and hearing that he got the most applause really makes me feel good!

That and the Arizona Green Party endorsement that he got today! Woo-hoo!

[RevolutionStartsNow]

22. Dean draws "almost all of his support" from ages 20-30?

Where are those stats? Link?

[Nicholas_J]

9. Kucinich was reminding the unions of this:

Howard Dean on Social Security: Raise Retirement Age; Payroll Taxes

July 2, 2003

For years, the Cato Institute and other organizations that advocate Social Security reform have made the point that the alternatives to personal accounts will be painful. This point is made clear as 2004 presidential candidate Vermont governor Howard Dean reluctantly spoke on how else to sustain benefit levels. After hard questioning on the Sunday, June 22, airing of Meet The Press from host Mr. Russert, Dean suggested the following options for Social Security:

Mr. Russert: In 1995…you were asked how would you balance the budget…. "The way to balance the budget, Dean said, is for Congress to cut Social Security, move the retirement age to 70, cut defense, Medicare and veterans pensions, while the states cut almost everything else. 'It would be tough but we could do it,' he said." would no longer cut Social Security?

Dr. Dean: But you don't—no. I'm not ever going to cut Social Security benefits.

Mr. Russert: Would you raise retirement age to 70?

Dr. Dean: Social Security, I—the best way to balance Social Security budget right now… is to expand the amount of money that Social Security payroll taxes apply to. It's limited now to something like $80,000. You let that rise. I also would entertain taking the retirement age to 68. It's at 67 now. I would entertain that...

Actually this seems quite planned.
Kerry hit Dean on the fact that HIS ideas for repealling the ush tax ctts are the same thing as rainsing the income taxes on the poor and middle class, where Kerry only wants to repeal the portion that gave most of thecuts to the rich. Lieberman reminded the public last nigh on Deans anti war stance, but tonight he tried to have it both ways, I am not a pacifist, but I was not for the war (later on the public will likely be reminded by another DLC candidate about Deans PRO-WAR statements in January and February)

The game is now to remind the public of everything Dean said a few weeks previously in a different venue, nad to have Dean deny it. And then the media, smart and eager for anything that smacks of waffling, will bring it up in the press.

Someplace in the news tomorrow, Kucinichs sharpness will be pointed out, and then Deans statements about the Social Security age will be re-iterated.

The game is now to show Dean as waffling, and waffling as often as possible.

I think even Sharpton is in on the wholething, given his statements about agreeniing to not start attacking each other until September.

[revcarol]

11. With Dean lying about Kerry's record and having to apologize,

and Lieberman attacking Dean,...it's hypocrical to criticize Dennis for pointing out LIES that concern labor in front of a labor audience!!

[MercutioATC]

79. What lies about Kerry's record??

.

[cherryperry]

13. I've seen a lot of criticism of Kucinich on DU and

couldn't disagree more! I thought he was terrific in the debate. It seems as though some people here confused something like shrill, I don't remember their exact put-downs, where I saw true passion!

[killbotfactory]

14. Kucinich Lied...

Balancing the budget doesn't mean cutting social spending.

[DrFunkenstein]

27. Then It Means Raising Taxes

Revenues have to come from somewhere.

[JohnKleeb]

28. I like Kucinich's idea for how to get universal pre school care

He'd just cut some unesscary money off from the pentagon.

[killbotfactory]

31. Raising from Clinton's level or Bush's?

I think Dean's bean pretty straitforward in opposing Bush's tax cuts.

[Padme Amidala]

41. Dean's Budget in Vermont left patients behind

Thanks to Dean the payments to doctors were so low they would not take patients covered in that way. Dean's health care plan does not work. So instead of health care, patients were left behind.

[killbotfactory]

67. source please.

How do you pay for patients with huge defecit? How do you enact social spending if voters don't trust you with their money?

[MercutioATC]

80. Dean wants to expand Medicaid and the FEHPB...

Do doctors currently take Medicaid patients? Yes.
Do doctors take patients who subscribe to FEHBP? Yes.

It will actually be easier for him to expand healthcare on a national level as he has two currently-existing national plans to work with. You don't have to like Dean, but the plan does make sense.

[Mairead]

62. But that's how it would work out, wouldn't it

There are only three choices: raise taxes, cut programs that benefit the elites, or cut programs that benefit working people. And you know that Dean wouldn't cut programs that benefit the elites because he's already said so. So what would he do?

[killbotfactory]

68. You limit the growth of the budget.

That doesn't mean cutting anything, you just don't spend more on everything.

[DrFunkenstein]

81. And This Will Balance The Budget?

Roll back the tax cuts and freezing spending growth?

One more question: was the budget balanced before the tax cuts? I seem to remember Bush putting us into a big hole even before the cuts.

[Tinoire]

17. You guys watching this again? It's on now (again)

I'm going to GD.

(Sheesh what a virtual world!)

[LWolf]

18. I'm watching.

I missed some of the end, and I want to catch it!

[JohnKleeb]

19. me too

[Feanorcurufinwe]

23. No TV, so the more details you can include the better, thanks

[Tinoire]

25. Go to GD. Thread there... n/t

[dsc]

24. Maybe because we aren't electing a dictator

what Kucinich's challenge was BTW was to repeal NAFTA and WTO as the first act of his administration. He can't do that. Only the Senate can (and by 2/3 margin).
Also Dean said he would entertain raising the age of retirment to 68. It is currently 67. He didn't say he would do so.

[Mairead]

63. He could gut them, in the same way that other presidents have done

There's a very long history of that, as I'm sure you know.

[lastliberalintexas]

66. Umm, no he couldn't

As president, he would not have the authority to do so. If what you're saying is that he would act contrary to our constitutional form of gov't and our entire system of separation of powers, then that would make him as bad as Reagan for ignoring the Bolen Amendment.

[Mairead]

72. Sure he could

Executive orders direct the people who do the heavy lifting. All he has to do is issue one that says 'don't' and they'll don't. Or be sacked.

[dsc]

75. The problem here

is that this treaty would take action not inaction to end. Most treaties require you to limit weapons or cut weapons or whatever. Those can be circumvented by not cutting the weapons. In the case of NAFTA that would require rasing tariffs which only Congress can do. Again we are electing a President not Ceaser.

[Mairead]

85. I don't think so.

Gutting NAFTA wouldn't need to mean raising tariffs. It could involve instituting new fees, checking goods at the border, and applying executive pressure in other ways.

[lastliberalintexas]

89. Which the executive can't do

I am not bashing Dennis here, but please understand what he could and could do unilaterally as President. Increasing fees, border checks, and the like (if substantive so that they actually mean anything) would be a modification of NAFTA which would require action by the Senate and House.

I think that Dennis would do everything in his legal power to get Congress to change NAFTA- I believe that he is an honest, sincere person who would work for the things he's promised. But please don't think that he could rule by executive fiat.


Think about this as well. Personally, I don't think we'll see the end of NAFTA, but I think a Dem president and Congress can modify it to include labor and environmental protections. However, say a repub is elected thereafter. What you are arguing for would also allow that repub to unilaterally refuse to enforce those protections. We should not set those kinds of precedents.

[Mairead]

93. But the precedents have already been set

Gutting the labor laws, started by either Carter or Reagan, for example. The invasions of Grenada and Iraq, the bombing of Libya, countless other things...all by executive order. I don't think we can put that toothpaste back in the tube anymore.

[dsc]

99. and all of those are the results of inaction

by Congress (except the gutting of labor laws some of which was action by Congress). No President can just increase fees. He could do the rest but as Lastliberal points out for them to be effective would be another matter. Just what would we be serching for? Just what do you think other countries would do in retaliation? Remember under WTO we can end up with mongo tariffs all over if we behave this way.

[DrFunkenstein]

29. Kerry and NAFTA

Kerry thinks that globalization can be a positive force. He supported NAFTA as the foundation of that force. However, he acknowledged that much work needed to be done to protect labor and environmental rights.

Exhibit A: The Kerry Amendment to NAFTA.

The amendment was a modest reform that guaranteed much-needed changes in the NAFTA Chapter 11 investment model in future trade agreements. Under the model, foreign investors may file a claim in secret NAFTA tribunals to seek compensation when government public interest regulations in any way diminish the value of their investment.

In doing so, the amendment would have instructed U.S. trade negotiators to ensure that future investor provisions do not grant foreign investors rights beyond what the U.S. Constitution provides.

http://action.citizen.org/pc/officials/congress/?lvl=C&only_votes=1&azip=02101

WASHINGTON - May 15 - Tuesday’s 98-0 passage of an amendment brought to the Senate floor by Sens. Max Baucus (D-Mont.) and Charles Grassley (R-Iowa) highlights the need for the Kerry "Chapter 11" amendment to the trade package coming later this week, Public Citizen’s Global Trade Watch said.

Unlike the amendment sponsored by Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.), the Baucus-Grassley Amendment does not set the U.S. Constitution as the benchmark for the scope of property rights available to foreign investors in the United States.

"It’s nice they fixed a drafting error by passing the Baucus amendment," said Lori Wallach, director of Public Citizen’s Global Trade Watch. "Now the Senate needs to pass the Kerry Amendment to start fixing the NAFTA Chapter 11 problem."

http://www.commondreams.org/news2002/0515-04.htm

[JohnKleeb]

30. Kerry has a fair compromise on that

I am glad he said he regretted his vote, some wont say that.

[Sushi Bandit]

32. Dennis won...hands down!!

[JohnKleeb]

33. thats what the union polls are saying too

:)he seemed good to me, and you know what I dont blame him for kinda of being loud and stuff, we've seen a democratic party who once was the workers party to a party that is more like Rockefeller republicans.

[Padme Amidala]

44. Dennis was the obvious winner

At the beginning he was the only candidate who gave a peace sign when he was introduced. He was the most presidential. He also had the best answers. By the end people were obviously impressed because in the final statements of all the candidates he is the only one who was applauded before he could say anything.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

69. DK

I thought his peace sign was pretty ironic considering he was the least peaceful candidate of the forum.

His points are well taken, but there's no way he's going to be able to get the stuff passed that he wants. I'd vote for him if I thought he could. He seems to want to be King, but the fact is that any president will have to play the political game. Congress isn't going to bow down to him and write all the laws that he wants the way he wants them written just so he can sign them. And issuing executive orders every day isn't my idea of solving the problems.

[Mairead]

86. You mean...the way they're not bowing down to Smirk?

If we put Dennis in office, that'll be such an enormous come-to-Jesus call that anyone who wants to keep their job will roll over for him.

[poskonig]

34. I thought Dennis came off kinda nasty tonight.

I support him on all the issues, but there was no reason for DK to be a total asshole with Gephardt and Dean.

[JohnKleeb]

36. maybe so

but dont flame me on this, but Dean has attacked other primary candiates too, I think the reason why Dennis did this really was because he knows the workers frustration and how he is better than Dean or Gephardt on those issues. So I kinda agree but I think it was just politics nothing personal because Kucinich wished Dean his best in the past.

[corgigrrl]

37. Kucinich was HORRIBLE

I don't even know who I'm replying to or how best to make my point.

I don't care if you are a Kerry supporter or Dean supporter like me or a Graham supporter or even a Breck Boy Edwards supporter, but I have to say

this is the second time I have watched Kucinich and I am appalled that ANYONE is supporting him.

He yells every answer.
He comes off as completely irrational.
Even if you try, and want to, it is hard to listen
BECAUSE HE IS YELLING ALL THE TIME.

Sorry, DK supporters, but both myself and my partner, who doesn't know the candidates as well and was wanting to listen to everyone -- by the second time he was given an opportunity to speak we were adjusting the volume and covering our ears.

Oh, the classic was the undisguised face of pure petulance he gave when caught on camera as Dean refuted the "age of retirement" bullshit.

I'm sorry, I admire Kucinich supporters and still do -- and you know what, the guy is not worthy of you all. Not one bit. Want to know how I know? Because if he was, we all would truly be signing on. Your candidate will come, Dennis isn't it. Tonight was -- beyond proof.

[JohnKleeb]

38. well we can agree to disagree

He's not always yelling and also I am tired of waiting for a candiate. We all are frustrated right? isnt that why most Dean supporters say they like him,

[ErasureAcer]

43. I'd rather have a yeller than a flip-flopping liar...

Kucinich's stances on the issues are solid.

Your candidate comes off as a flip-flopping liar...I'd rather have Dennis shout out the answers than support a hyprocrit concerning the pentagon's budget, retirement age, and "equal rights to all".

Dean isn't a leader. Dean is more of the same ole from both parties and if he does win the nomination, I will be the happiest person ever to vote for Green Party. I'd rather support the solid issues than liars and people with horrible platforms(Death Penalty, not for gay marriage(equality), support of the patriot act(Dean says he would keep most of it intact), and so forth).

Dean or anyone for that matter will never win being Bush Lite. The only hope for America is Bizarro Bush...the complete opposite of Bush...and the only Dem candidate that comes close is Dennis Kucinich.

Issues are what matters...and the man with best platform is Kucinich.

[JohnKleeb]

46. Dont forget Dennis's committment

He actually spoke at anti war rallies cant say the same about Dean, Kucinich has a good work ethic. Funny how the Deannies say the like Dean because hes a fighter and challenges the DLC and all yet when Kucinich supposely has the gall to criticize Dean, its wrong to be a yeller and a critic, just an observation sorry but I can not deal with cliched candiates like Dean give me someone who can give me something in return and thats what Kucinich offers.

[Padme Amidala]

45. You are right. The truth is horrible

In Dennis's time he challenged your candidate and others on NAFTA and WTO. He also challenged them on other important issues, such as the Social Security retirement age.

You are right. You should not care about where your candidate stands. You should just blindly follow him no matter what lies he tells and gets caught lying on (see earlier posting about retirment age). It is just horrible for a candidate to let anyone know what your candidate stands for. It is just shamefull.

[JohnKleeb]

48. thank you

Also what bothers me Padme is that some here give Dean a free ride when he bashes democrats yet when Kucinich bashed Dean need I say their jaws dropped. Dean actually wants to increase the retirement age and he at the bare minium would think about it. We can NOT think that Dean offers us the best hope, theres much better alternatives and yes I am being realistic, Kerry is better all around than Dean, and Kucinich is better too.

[diamondsoul]

50. Just laughing

He shocked them, my friend. It isn't his usual style, and they thought he'd just go on being Mr. Nice Guy, you know the little liberal with big ideas and no chance in hell. He showed everyone tonight that he can lead, he can fight and he's not going to let the opposition slide around without calling them on it.

[JohnKleeb]

51. I know what you mean hes normally nice and friendly and all

I think labor and trade issues are very dear to his soul, and I dont like the idea of increasing the retirement age, Kucinich is a fighter I dont doubt and he was being honest too, perhaps he is like me frustrated that the party isnt what it used to be and what it should be.

[diamondsoul]

56. I think the party is a big part of it.

He said in Iowa it's time to "set up the big tent and invite EVERYBODY back into the Democratic Party!". I think he's passionate and that was one of the first things that made me look closer at him. I'm tired of the wishy-washy centrist crap. I want a guy who says what he means and means what he says, whether it's good or bad. That's Kucinich.

He doesn't ever LIE purposefully. I think he's been tripped up once that I've seen and spoken when he shouldn't have, and that may play a part in what we saw tonight too.

I suspect what we'll continue to see is him being himself at the individual events but not catering to the nice-guy image at all out debates. He'll keep right on challenging the others because he has to. The press is not going to help him be heard, so the only way to do it is to make himself loud and clear in debates.

[Tinoire]

57. You're too funny...

I'll take the diamond in the brown wrapper over the cubic zirconium in the velvet box any day.

This thing is about issues- no more and no less. In a time where people can't feed their families, are homeless, have no health-care- give me the real thing, the real deal.

Also give me the only guy who has a proven track record of uniting Labor, Greens, Progressives, Independents, Centrists, and even Republicans behind him.

The fire this time...!

I feel that neither I nor the American people deserve Kucinich if we don't support him as he fights for us and our rights. I am honored that such a man toughed it out long enough in that cess-pool of lies and vice to come out swinging for me.

Good luck to you and your candidate.

Btw, the look of pure disgust he gave Dean over the retirement age was because Dean is back-pedalling on Dean's own proposal to raise the retirement age acting as if he'd never heard that before. Wouldn't you be disgusted also. Check out the candidate blogs on the web- this observation is at more than DU.

[Mairead]

74. Dean didn't 'refute' it, he lied about it. There's a difference.

[MercutioATC]

82. Oh, he DID NOT lie. That's blatant spin.

Give me a link where Dean says that he supports raising the SS age to 68 (and please note that "suupport" and "entertain" are two separate things).

Now find me a Quote from Dean saying that he supports raising the age to 70, as Kucinich said he did.

[Mairead]

90. When he starts playing it straight, I'll start cutting him some slack

Til then, no. From his mouth, 'entertain' and 'support' are synonyms.

[MercutioATC]

95. So, no PROOF from you, just innuendo and suppositions as usual?

I wasn't aware that you'd given Dean the authority to rewrite the English language. "entertain" and "support" are NOT synonyms. Period.

You have every right to FEEL that Dean's not being truthful, but that's just what it is, a baseless FEELING. All I'm asking for is some proof of the FACT that Dean is "lying". You seem to have difficulty producing it.

[LWolf]

104. DK provides the sources:

Rep. Dennis Kucinich does not accept the media script that portrays Democrats as groveling before unions and civil rights groups. Quite the contrary, he sees Democrats who too often serve up vague and fuzzy rhetoric to loyal constituencies during campaigns and then govern against the interests of those voters once in office. That's why -- at the AFL-CIO forum in Chicago -- he tried to encourage fellow Democrats toward specificity.

That's why -- since Gov. Dean says he is committed to a balanced budget while keeping Pentagon spending off-limits to cuts -- Rep. Kucinich felt it was important and relevant to a union audience to question Dean's public statements about raising the Social Security retirement age. In arguing for his own position of returning the age to 65 at the nationally-televised forum, Kucinich noted that "Mr. Dean has said that he'd move the retirement age to 68. One time, he talked about moving it to 70."

A few minutes later, Dean simply offered a broad denial: "I have never favored a Social Security retirement age of 70. Nor do I favor one of 68."

Today, Congressman Kucinich said: "It's unfortunate that Dr. Dean was not forthright with labor leaders and activists concerning his statements on Social Security which had been discussed on a recent 'Meet the Press' program. I was surprised at his denial, which raises many questions. If he wants to clarify his earlier statements, fine. But don't deny them while appealing for union votes."

BACKGROUND
"The way to balance the budget, Dean said, is for Congress to cut Social Security, move the retirement age to 70, cut defense, Medicare and veterans pensions, while the states cut almost everything else. 'It would be tough but we could do it,' he said." (Times-Picayune, 3/5/95, "And Politicians Wonder Why They Aren't Trusted," by Miles Benson, Newhouse News Service)

Dean was asked about the comment on "Meet the Press" (6/22/03):

DEAN: ...I don't recall saying that, but I'm sure I did, if you have it on your show, because I know your researchers are very good."

RUSSERT: Well, Miles Benson is a very good reporter for the Newhouse News.

DEAN Yes, he is. No, no, no. I'm sure I did. I'm not denying that I said that.

http://kucinich.us/#chicago

[MercutioATC]

105. Ahhh, from 1995. Where did Dennis stand on abortion in 1995?

...might some ideas have changed in the past 8 years? Possibly for BOTH candidates?

[diamondsoul]

49. Oh yes there was

I don't know what race you've been watching but the one I've seen has made it necessary for Kucinich to be as "nasty" as he was tonight. Not that I'd call it that. Considering the way he's been treated, I'd have been a LOT nastier.

There are other things that have him and most of his supporters fed up, but I won't get into them because it's not the sort of Campaign Dennis wants to run.

[Mairead]

64. Perhaps Dean should stop insulting Dennis by making untrue claims, then?

I'm sure that if Dean acknowledged that Dennis has been out in front on the issues for nearly 2 years, that would make a difference.

[MercutioATC]

83. How, exactly, did Dean insult Dennis?

I'm trying to recall a time and I can't. I LIVE in the Cleveland area, and the Dean campaign has been very respectful of Kucinich's home turf. I've never seen Kucinich slighted by Dean.

Link, please?

[AnAmerican]

101. Touche Mairead.......

DK has been out in front on the issues, he has been fighting his entire adult life for the "little guy". Dean is a johnny-come-lately
who acts like the ideas he talks about are his and his alone.

Therein lies the difference. If Dean gave credit where creidt is due I would have a much better opinion of him.

[Mairead]

73. Dean should quit being an arschloch toward Dennis, then, right?

For example, saying that he (Dean) is the first to do this or the only one to do that. There's quite a clear record that that's crap, but he goes on doing it anyway because it sells to the ignorant. Well, the cat just bit him.

[Lost_Stash_Of_Dubya]

40. Kucinich frightened me

First, I just discovered DU and it's awesome! A breath of fresh air after choking on the right-wing drivel that floods mainstream media.

This being my first post, I hate to for it to be one of dissent, but I'm afraid it must. I watched tonight's debate twice and IMO Kucinich gave the absolute worst performance of the night.

I had never actually seen Kucinich talk prior to this debate, so I went into this with an open mind, actually favoring much of Kucinich's policy ideas. My political views are most closely aligned with the Green party, but I don't vote Green because I'm a pragmatist, but that's another discussion (and thread). The problems I have with Kucinich are the yelling, shouting, constant pounding of the lectern, and pointed attacks of other candidates in a forum in which rebuttals are cumbersome or impossible. The anger is good, hell I'd be suspicious of anyone who claimed to be a democrat and yet isn't angry at what Dubya and the right wing are doing to this country, but for anger to be constructive it needs control and channeling. I don't see Kucinich using anger to his advantage, rather, I see him as a reactionary. I see Kucinich as opposing good ideas out of pure spite and anger. We don't need the opposite of a Clinton-hater.

On paper I like many of Kucinich's ideas, but he's got to control himself so that he doesn't come off as a raving madman.

I should add the disclaimer that I'm a Dean supporter (wavering towards Kerry), so there's some bias.

How did I think the debate went? For me, Dean and Kerry were on another plane from the others, although I'd like to see Dean with more polish and preparation. Sharpton's a brilliant speaker and I love listening to him, but his record isn't one that I trust. Gephardt's fighting the good fight, but he's too bland to lead anyone but the choir. Edwards is the son of a mill worker....so? Grahm--perfect VP for either Kerry or Dean. Braun--nice, but out of her league--should be running for city council. Lieberman--if he's the nominee I might just vote for Bush out of temporary psychosis.

[DrFunkenstein]

52. I'm Afraid I'm Going To Have To Agree Somewhat

I noticed Kucinich overplaying the outrage before, but it really does make him seem a bit off-balanced. I love Dennis to death and will most likely contribute financially to his Congressional race, but his theatricality makes his excellent ideas seem like pie-in-the-sky - and they shouldn't.

Your final paragraph is dead on, IMO. Kerry and Dean really seemed to pull away from the pack. Dean has a few logical bugs he needs to work out, but I thought it was an otherwise excellent performance. He shouldn't have laughed so quickly at his own closing joke, but it was pretty damn funny. I was most impressed by his ability to contain his fire, perhaps as an effect of being around Kucinich's over-the-top performance.

Gephardt may get the labor vote in the end, but I just don't see much spark from him. It seems even when he turn it up a notch, he is thinking, "Ok, turn it up a notch, Gep." I don't think you're supposed to see that mechanism in effect.

<>

PS - I feel like its a betrayal of Dennis to criticize him so superficially, but that's really how I felt.

PPS - Welcome to DU!

[Desertrose]

53. welcome to DU ...but I do disagree with you about DK...

How is it that everyother candidate can rant on...get angry accuse the other guy of whatever...but if Dennis gets passionate...everyone freaks out & says he's a raving madman??

I think maybe what scares people is that he is coming from the heart...its real passion. Passion can be raw & primal and we sure as hell are not used to a whole lot of that since selection 2000.

Dennis truly cares for people that aren't getting a fair shake these days...that is what fires him up...that there ARE answers out there & all the others are playing politics. Dennis is in it for real...and maybe we are afraid of REAL anymore. ..all we have been fed is phony * make believe feelings & photo opps.

I would say Dennis did well at controlling & channeling his anger...quite well...

and somehow I just had a feeling you were a Dean supporter...
Peace
DR

edit html thingy

[diamondsoul]

54. Like I said earlier on

It's not his usual style and it scared some people. That's ok, though. It's a wake-up call. He's not the meek little elfin guy they were expecting to be up there tonight. Tonight he was pissed off and rightly so. Tonight it was time to speak up and show Dean's dishonesty where it really matters. I've known about it for a long while now. He's not the man people think he is.

Anyway, on a happier note, was I the only one who noticed that Bob Edwards when he called him to answer the very first question called him "President Kucinich" as if it was the most natural thing in the world?! I nearly fell out of my chair with glee!

[JohnKleeb]

55. no I noticed Edwards did that oo

gave me a smile. President Kucinich I like that. I agree he had to be honest about Dean, I dont mean harm to his supporters but to be fair, Dennis was NOT lying, and we need more populist people like Kucinich in our party. He's normally a good guy, Ive seen him before, hes generally a pretty good guy.

[Tinoire]

59. Same here!

And at the end of the evening...

And the last shall be first.

Perfect... :)

[JohnKleeb]

60. I think Bob liked him

If Kucinich wins, I know a good secretary of labor, someone like AFL-CIO head Sweeney or someone who heads up a big union.

[diamondsoul]

110. I believe Bob was the interviewer

on the NPR show with Kucinich when he first announced he was running. He did both a phone interview and a guest appearance on the sshow. It was clear to me that he liked Kucinich then. I just thought it was cool to hear him say it so naturally and have nobody call him over it.:evilgrin:

[MercutioATC]

84. I'm concerned about all of the "executive orders" he's planning...

It seems that Kucinich's answer to opposition from the other two branches of government is the issuance of executive orders. That DOES concern me a bit.

In my opinion, Kucinich has taken a very idealistic position on many issues. As President, he would still need Congress' support to make his ideas a reality. Instead of looking at the situation pragmatically, he tends to use the "executive order" solution way too often. Everybody likes to hear grand stories. The true test, however, is making them realities. I have concerns about Kucinich being able to do this.

I DO like some of his ideas, I just don't see his implementation of them as practical.

[Tinoire]

58. I tended to agree with you but now I don't care - He's #1 in FL

He polled the #1 slot in Gainesville. I don't think people are interested in the packaging or rhetoric anymore. The times they are a hurtin' too much...

Presidential Forum
8/5/2003

<snip>

The Gainesville viewers also held a straw poll. Ohio Congressman Dennis Kucinich led the way with about a third of the vote, followed by Vermont Governor Howard Dean and Massachusetts Senator John Kerry. Tonight's straw poll is believed to be the earliest in our area.

http://www.wcjb.com/news.asp?id=7753

On edit: And he's currently polling #1 on 2 internet polls. He's obviously doing something right.

[LWolf]

65. Welcome to DU!

If you like Dennis on the issues, I encourage you to find a rally or gathering, and go meet him. He was fiery last night; he is also calm, collected, focused, and has a great sense of humor. I think you'll like what you find.

[goodhue]

102. speaking truth to power

Speaking truth to power makes people uncomfortable. Shouting and pounding fists forces people to pay attention. This is exactly the reaction that Wellstone produced among the DFL establishment in 1990. Who is this short little angry man and what right does he have to shout and sound angry at our party? Even when he won, the establishment shuddered everytime to "little chickenshit" spoke. The typical reaction was to ingnore first and foremost, and then if necessary to belittle and dismiss. This is exactly what Kucinich has faced. If you were in MN in 1990 or in Northfield beforehand and you have paid any attention to DK, you know that it is DK who channels the progressive cause. Yeah, it can be frightening but we could all use a little spooking up.

[genius]

106. Kucinich frightens Bush. DK will use the truth to retire the dictator.

In the debate, Dennis proved that he could effectively use the truth to show separate the good buys from the hypocrites. Bush wouldn't stand a chance in a debate with Kucinich.

[LWolf]

107. A bush-DK debate?

I'd pay to watch. I'd be surprised if * agreed to debate him. I'll go out on a limb with a prediction here...whoever faces bush in 04 will get few, limited, strictly controlled opportunities to debate * face to face.

[FluxRostrum]

111. What Are You Afraid Of?

What are you afraid of?

Afraid to have a real alternative to the current lot of neo-fascist liars.

Afraid that cancelling NAFTA & The Patriot Act would give us too much freedom and keep too many jobs on our shores.

Afraid to be proud of your country again.

Afraid that if we are all healthy and have jobs the "terrorists" will really hate us.

I've gathered all the free on-line audio & video of Dennis on my Kucinich tribute page. I recommend watching a little more of him. Passion can sometimes frighten the massively repressed. It's the fear of getting your hopes up again; just to be squashed harder later. Dean, Sharpton, Brown and Kucinich are the only ones worth considering. Al & Carol, I'm afraid would be quickly pushed aside trying to implement their solutions. I get the fealing Dean is just holding out for the highest bidder; he may be able to implement his watered down approach but is little more than a speed bump on the road to fascism. Dennis Kucinch is the Brick Wall. End of the Road. The People have Spoken .... etc.

http://FluxRostrum.com/MindFlux/DennisKucinich

Personally I don't see it as negitive to challenge the other candidates directly on the positions they so delicatly dance around. We Desrve Answers to the Questions Dennis got in their faces with. This dismissal of Dennis by the other Dem's is the same dismissal that the non voting half of our country feels, dispises and can rally around. That gives Dennis an extremely wide margin of victory.
IF WE GET THEM REGISTERED.
IF THEY CAN SEE THEY FINALLY HAVE A CHOICE WORTH SUPPORTING.

[DrFunkenstein]

42. Kerry Has Already Begun The Chickenhawk Squawk

AWOL can't be far behind.

[BridgeTheGap]

76. How much of this reaction to DK's performance is

Class based? If you are a Union member, did you like it?
I know of some DK supporters who thought he was over the top. But I've been a union member and given what NAFTA & GATT has done to the industrial base of this country - Hell yes, I'm pissed too! If there isn't enough "umph" behind what DK is saying, he will just be viewed by union members as another "empty promise" politician. It is a wake up call. Give 'em Hell Dennis!

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ohio Dem]

88. Back to France?

Hmmmmmmm.

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lastliberalintexas]

92. How is Dean a traitor?

For opposing the Iraq invasion? If so, Dennis and Bob Graham should be shipped there with him.

If for some other reason, please elaborate. With cites.

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LuminousX]

97. Those Liberals

they just never think for themselves and are always just so willing to accept whatever they are told. I've never seen a liberal Question Authority... ever.

103. the problem is

all they do is question authority. they don't go much beyond questioning

[lastliberalintexas]

98. Oh good

Glad to know I've been fooled into supporting Dean, since I'm not smart enough to figure these things out on my own and need people like you with no facts, only insults and innuendo, to explain things to me.

Please. I know where Dean is on the issues- and I'm supporting him with my eyes wide open. But then I'm just a paid Rovian operative from Roswell who posts on DU to get people to support my Torjun Horse candidate, so I guess you'll dismiss my opnion out of hand. :-)

[genius]

100. Clinton signed Kyoto. He's more liberal than Dean.

But you're right about the damage Dean will do.

[LuminousX]

94. We send traitors to France?

Is this a bit of anti-French sentiment? Goes well with your anti-Clinton sentiment.

[deutsey]

108. Someone asked Dean about that last night on CSPAN

I thought he gave good response to the Kucinich question. Watch for the re-run of the rally on CSPAN. It was during the Q&A part of the rally.

Was it just me, or was Dean the only one NOT called on to answer the opening question at the AFL-CIO debate? I don't recall him answering...he was the first to answer the question after the second series of video questions.

[genius]

109. I noticed that Dean avoided stating his position in the debate

He went out of his way to misstate his position on Social Security but couldn't take the time to let a crowd that was very concerned about this issue know where he stood on it.

[tedoll78]

112. Of course no one will take-up the challenge..

When you're doing battle with other giants, you don't stop to pick-off the ankle-biting ant.