Kucinich and Lieberman's attacks on Dean during the debate

[Mass_Liberal]

Like many of you probably did, I watched the debate in New Mexico. During the debate, Lieberman said that Dean's plans for universal health care would end the Bush recession and start the Dean depression. Kucinich said something to the effect that Dean's executive experience in vermont with balancing the budget was worthless because vermont doesn't have a military. Well, its true that vermont doesn't have a military, but other states haven't balanced the budget while paying off 1/4 of their debt! If they had, they would be in less of a fiscal crisis.

In any case, enough of my ranting, I just wanted to know what the rest of you had to say about this, whether you agree, disagree or anything else.


Thanks! :kick:

[dkf]

1. There is no way I could ever vote for Lieberman.

That just seals the deal.

Why is it he can only get his heat up against democratic ideas but acquiesces in his pink tutu to Republican thuggery?

That man needs to drop out now. He makes me just as pissed off as * does. aaaaaagggggghhhhh.

[Casper]

2. I wanted to watch...

But our local PBS stations (atlanta) thought more people would be interested in watching The New This Old House. X(

So I was at a disadvantage having to listen to it over the internet.

I find it quite disturbing when the democratic candidates attack each other. I guess I'm old school and believe that they should be speaking for the policies they would initiate or change as well as criticizing the current administration. Especially this early in the game, each candidate should be distinguishing themselves via their ideas and accomplishments instead of knocking the other guys. I guess I'm living in a dream world... :shrug:

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

3. The attackers

were trying to get themselves in the news. Sadly, this worked for Lieberman but not Kucinich.

DK came off looking a bit desperate I think, and the shots of him scowling at Dean while Dean responded to him showed what looked like bitter hatred. I don't think DK scored any points.

Lieberman certainly got himself some coverage, but I don't think people bought his garbage.

For the record, I think all of the candidates did a tremendous job. None hurt themselves, but they didn't really help themselves either. DK got lots of applause, especially during his NAFTA schpeil, but didn't get the exposure on the news that he hoped for. Gephardt was certainly the winner of news coverage, and rightly so. Kerry did a great job making his message more succinct and direct. I look forward to the rest of the debates, because now they all will have to sharpen their messages to distinguish their positions.

[pansypoo53219]

4. from what i gleaned

Dean was very Clintonesque in his reaction-good.
Pander bear worked so well for damn, what's his name. Tsongas! ooh, damn, i SHOULDN'T know that. i'm too young and NOT a Polli sci grad.

[BuelahWitch]

5. This didn't wear well with either of them, IMO

Just made Holy Joe look even more silly, and St. Dennis like a viper in dove's clothing.

And what does Lieberman know? We're already in a f*cking depression!

[sandnsea]

6. repealing tax cuts

That's how I understood the Dean Depression remark, due to the tax cuts, not the health plan. It was still uncalled for, just putting it into perspective.

And you might want to do a little googling on Vermont's 2003/2004 budget problems and the medical plan problems and the increase in their property taxes as well. They're talking about cutting some of the people covered by the health plan too. It's looking like things might get a little sticky in Vermont over the next year, although it's possible it'll all get fixed too.

[UnapologeticLiberal]

7. I think it was actually in reference to protectionist trade policies

I believe that line was used in reference to Dean's call for making labor and environmental standards equal to our own a prerequisite for trade agreements.

Check out my new Dean blog:
http://deangrassroots.blogspot.com/

[sandnsea]

22. Maybe I'm wrong

That's how I remembered it, but my memory is certainly wrong as often as its right. Sorry.

[ModerateMiddle]

37. UnapologeticLiberal is right

The comment Lieberman made had to do with Dean's assertion (quoted in the WashPost and confirmed by Chris Suellentrop of Slate) that he would demand third world countries adher to American standards for labor and the environment in order to have free trade with the US. The problem is that free trade ALSO helps the American economy, maybe even moreso than it helps the developing nations.

I don't know about a "Dean Depression", but certainly some of Dean's economic policies would be devastating to our economy, not helpful. I believe that there will tremendous pressure for Dean to change his policies as the primary debate goes on. And that's a very good thing if he has a chance at winning the primary. He needs to understand better how things work together in a global economy.

(On edit: put the wrong name in the title. Sorry.)

[Larkspur]

12. The 2003/2004 Vermont budget will be the new Vermont Gov's budget

not Dean's. The new Vermont governor is a Republican.

And like the rest of the country, Vermont is taking hits on the ailing national economy. It's that Dean's fiscal conservatism has helped Vermont weather the storm for now. But if Bush is re-elected or re-steals the White House, then Vermont will face serious problems also.

[UnapologeticLiberal]

21. If you look at most of the states in the country, Vermont is in good shape

I can't remember where I found it, but I found an article with the Republican governor of Vermont bragging that his state was one of four in the nation without a budget deficit. That tells you something.

[sandnsea]

23. Not exactly

Dean's Rainy Day Fund kept there from being an actual debt and that's a very good thing for Vermont. But the budget has had deficit. Next year's budget is in more trouble and Dean knew that back in 2002. Some of his platform could be in real trouble next year when Bush could destroy him with it.

Douglas, Jan 2003 Address:

"If we continue to spend at the current rate, a deficit of $30 million will fall upon us in the coming fiscal year."

"But the fact remains that the cost of Vermont's Medicaid program is growing so rapidly that without real reform, the program will quickly collapse under the burden of its own weight. Vermont ranks second in the percentage of its residents on Medicaid -- nearly one out of every four Vermonters receives benefits."

"Without reform, the Health Access Trust Fund year-end balance for FY '04 will be just over $4 million. By the following year, the fund will run a deficit of $14.6 million; and left unresolved, this deficit will balloon to nearly $150 million by FY 2008."

[AnAmerican]

8. That was no attack

DK was correctly pointing out that balancing a state budget is
not the same as balancing the federal budget. Dean has used the fact that Vermont has a balanced budget as part of his standard stump speech for some time now. He has also stated more than once that he would not cut the DoD budget.

While I applaud Dean an Vermont's situation I realize that he cannot use it to infer similar success as President. The federal budget is a much more complex animal.

In order to provide the social services that all the Democratic candidates are promoting, the DoD budget cannot be placed off limits.
Dennis gets this.

If Dean continues to point to Vermont's budget he should be prepared to defend his position on not touching the DoD budget, the single biggest blackhole into which our tax dollars are poured.

That being said, I did think Lieberman went way overboard, there is simply no proof that the economic policies of any of the candidates would lead to a depression.

Lieberman's was an attack, DK's was a challenge based on policy.

[Egnever]

10. huh?

Remeber before bushes tax cuts we had a surpluss. Saying that we cant fund the health care programs dean is proposing with that surpluss may or may not be true I dont know the numbers. However saying that defense spending has to be cut or else social programs will be gutted is also a huge leap.

The reality is but no one is really addressing it. If bush doesnt get humble really quick and get the UN involved in Iraq with money and troops our entire budget is in serious danger. As long as the Iraq situation continues on the course it is presently on no one will be balancing any budgets period.

[AnAmerican]

11. Almost all the candidates

Are pushing for some version of universal healthcare. All the versions, despite their differences, will cost big bucks. (money well spent in my opinion)

Combine the desire for universal healthcare with the obscenely bloated Dod budget and the answer becomes clear.

Throw in DK's plan for funding education and it becomes even more so.

Cut 15 to 20% of a budget that is more pork than not and you have the money available to fund some hugely important initiatives.

I will state again, Dennis's comment towards Dean, while being a tad bit aggressive, was simply a challenge based upon policy. He was challenging a policy inference that Dean has made repeatedly, that he can use Vermont's balanced budget to point towards his ability to balance the federal budget.

Success in one area does not guaranteee success in the other.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

13. yeah, DK was challenging Dean's policy

but he did it in a childish and unpresidential way. That's why he didn't get any buzz from it. He comes off as shrill and a bit hysterical, which only feeds into the 'whacko liberal' tag he has due to his very liberal policies, and is a part of why he is perceived as 'unelectable'.

[AnAmerican]

15. Your descriptions of DK

As "shrill" and "hysterical" are indications of your opinion. An opinion that is not shared by most Du'ers or I would guess most Democratic voters nationwide. DK is seen, more and more so everyday, as a man who has put a huge amount of thought into his platform and has just as good a chance at the nomination as any of the candidates.

And btw, using words like that in reference to any Democratic candidate does us no good. We are hearing that crap from the right everyday. Do we need to hear it here as well?

[Egnever]

16. I think denis would be better served

If what he said was i will cut the pork out of the defense budget and perhaps listed some examples of the pork. Saying he will slash defense spending as a soundbite is a losing proposition in the current political climate. That statement alone makes him unelectable at this point in time without some qualifiers on it.

Slashing defence spending in a time when americans see war everyday and are threatened with terrorism by the bush junta over and over wont come close to flying right now with john q public.

Finding and pointing out waste and making examples of it however could cary him far. Unfortunately our society seems to run on sound bytes and cuttng defense right now is a bad sound byte to be tied to.

[Larkspur]

24. Cleveland, OH didn't have a military either, but it went bankrupt under

Kucinich.

Even if it wasn't entirely Kucinich's fault, he failed to develop a plan to stop it.

[AnAmerican]

25. Thank you for contributing so much to the thread....

:eyes:

Dennis was elected to mayor on the promise of saving Muny Light. The city was already on the edge of financial disaster when Dennis took office, thanks to the previous administration.

When Dennis held true to his promise to the citizens who elected him, the banks engineered the default to hurt him politically. At the time they did, but time has a way of righting wrongs.

Dennis is now recognized as taking a principled stand in a situation that would have taxed the most savvy administrator.

Go ahead, point to Cleveland's woes...Dennis had no hand in creating them, he was doing the job he was elected for, protecting the citizens against a voracious corporation intent on squeezing every last dollar out of an already troubled city.

Dennis was doing then what he is doing now. He stands for the people who feel they do not have a voice anymore. Who feel so disillusioned that they don't even bother to vote, knowing that the lesser of two evils is no choice at all.

So I say again, bring up Cleveland's financial difficulties, Dennis is proud of his record, as are his supporters. His choice at the time, play ball with the banks and lose a civic asset for some temporary relief, or stand firm and preserve a part of Cleveland that has saved the citizens of the city millions in the interim.

Hmmmm...tough choice. Dennis did right by us back then and never really stopped...he fights for the people.

To this day First Energy wishes they had won that battle, they were looking forward to ripping off even more people. The Davis-Besse nuclear plant problems, the recent blackout, this is the company that Dennis has been fighting against for us.

Corporate control of government, the profit driven health care we are saddled with, the emergence of giant agricultural companies that produce so-called food laced with growth hormones and pesticides....these are the modern day issues that Dennis fights, again on our behalf.

I am damn glad he is running, he offers something that I seen far too little of in politics, a genuine concern for the citizenry. I like all the candiidates, Lieberman excepted, to varying degrees, but Dennis holds our interests highest. As a public servant should.

[NNadir]

29. The Bush deficit will not be Denny's fault either, but he can't just do to

the US what he did to Cleveland. We need someone who can take on problems that are NOT his fault, and work to solve them, because that is EXACTLY what the new President will face.

It was totally disingenuous for him to attack Dean on these grounds, as his own financial administrative experience is abysmal. He let his city fail financially. Whether or not he created the conditions, he might have done far better with the crisis. Part of the reason for his failure to do so is that he had no sense of comprimise, and he just pissed people off by being confrontational and inflexible. That reminds me of Bush a bit, frankly. He had to wear a bullet proof vest to the Indians games. Were he more flexible, more creative, more diplomatic he might have been able to save Muni AND prevent default. That would have been impressive.

I don't think Dennis's attack on Dean played well at all. He certainly was not nearly as bad as Leiberdweeb, but on the other hand, after hearing endlessly about how "inspiring" he was from his supporters, I found him about as unimpressive as I expected from my private research. (This was the first time I heard him speak.)

Overall, these punctilios aside, I think we have an excellent field of candidates, most of whom, (and Denny does this far more than Lieberdweeb), focus on the enemy: George W. Bush.

[AnAmerican]

31. I appreciate your words

Dennis was inflexible as mayor. He was 31 years old. Hell I was inflexible in alot of ways back then as well. He is now in his mid 50's, more seasoned, more willing to listen to others. Buthis core respect for the citizens remains the same. He fights the fights that really matter. He has never backed down from his responsibilty as a public servant.

I stand by my words, Dean should not use his record in Vermont as being indicative of his ability to balance the budget in the country as a whole, especially given his unwillingness to look at the DoD budget.

By admitting the DoD needs cut Dennis IS looking at the potential solutions for the mess * has put us in. It is a truth alot of folks are not willing to admit.

Thanks to the pretender in the WH, the US will have to make some very hard decisions in the coming years. I guess it breaks down to who do you trust to act in the public interest. For me that is Dennis.

[ModerateMiddle]

38. Leiberman's was more of an attack

because of how he couched it - a "Dean Depression". But his point is valid. The US economy depends heavily on foreign trade. Just as Dean rightly proposes not to immediately move to what would be better, i.e. single payer health care for all americans, we can't immediately switch to equal business standards around the world. The results would be devastating. We do need to lift standards around the world, but how to accomplish this is bit by patient bit, not immediately.

Dennis Kucinich has a wonderful vision for the world, but it isn't very well based in reality.

I do agree however, that translating success in Vermont, which relied heavily on Federal Aid to get 96% of the kids health insurance, to success across the US is not a given. Who would subsidize the US like the US subsidized Vermont?

[w4rma]

9. Lieberman seems to be zealotly pro-free-trade.

Lieberman says that free trade has created American jobs. Liberman says that if fair-trade protections for American jobs were put in place, Americans would lose their jobs. Lieberman says it's okay for big corporations to move overseas where they don't have to pay folks the same wages they pay them here and they don't have to worry about environmental regulations and they don't have to worry about paying American taxes.

Lieberman is wrong.

Kucinich's attack was basically on *all* governors (and Senators and Representatives, also, if you think about it). Note, I read that Vermont may have a ~$10 million state budget for their national guard.

[CMT]

14. thanks for your comments

and welcome to DU

[Mass_Liberal]

17. Thanks for contributing

this was my first thread, and I'm glad I got responses. One, last point to make Kucinich's "hello???" thing at the end was still childish and uncalled for.


Peace:kick:

[Egnever]

18. Welcome to DU

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

[Mass_Liberal]

19. Thanks

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

[DrFunkenstein]

20. Did Anyone Notice This Was NOT Lieberman's Argument?

I love Grandpa Joe as much as the next guy, but his argument had nothing to do with universal health care. Lieberman was holding Dean to a comment about basing trade agreements upon American standards of labor and environmental agreements. Dean denied that this was what he actually said. The last I checked, Lieberman had submitted Dean's comment in a press release. Any further developments?

I wouldn't say that Dean's balanced budget was worthless because of the lack of a military (I think they have a militia, actually). But I would say it his not very impressive considering that there is no real urban centers in the state. There are many issues that Dean has never had to deal with. Nevertheless, I would hardly call his efforts "worthless."

[AnAmerican]

26. I do not recall Dennis........

or anyone for that matter, calling Dean's budget "worthless".

I applaud Dean for his efforts in Vermont at a time when most states are experiencing real financial difficulties. But again, Dean has been using that budget as an example of his ability to do the same for the Federal government. I dispute that claim.

Without cutting the DoD, which has grown under *, it will be a tall order to balance the Fed budget. Dean has stated he will not cut defense, even the "blackhole" weapons systems that Dennis is targeting.

IMHO, that means he will not be able to balance the Fed budget, and maintain social programs, and provide for his version of Universal healthcare. Now if only he would stop inferring that he could and would.

[Mass_Liberal]

27. About the comment

come to think of it, you are right about Lieberman's comment being on the labor standards. I'm sorry for the mistake. I started this thread off the top of my head, and should have found exact quotes. It was sorta a heat of the moment thing. '


Peace:kick:

[NNadir]

30. Dean accomplished his financial balance under the conditions he

faced.

Bill Clinton had no military budget. Little Rock isn't Los Angeles. What one needs, what Dean (and Clinton) had, is a flexible and analytical mind,

[RevolutionStartsNow]

32. It will be nice to have a President with a brain again (nt)

[JohnKleeb]

33. even Lieberman has a brain

:evilgrin: so I thought lol
I am just joshing in fact, even dubya has a brain granted its the size of a peanut and will probably be studied by all the scientists.

[polpilot]

28. Desperate words from men who have seen the writing on the wall.

Dean '04

[AnAmerican]

34. Nice hit and run

I know what to expect from you now...thanks for the example :eyes:

[jenm]

35. Run Dennis Run

I liked Kucinich. I think he'd make a good v.p. for
the front runner (Dean?) He's kind of the Anti-Cheney.

[JohnKleeb]

36. well I dont think some of Dean supporters would like that

They seem to like Clark from my observations as a possible VP but thank you for your kind words. Its always nice to meet someone who thinks he belongs on the ticket. Only time will tell and if you read on the democratic party history frontrunners dont win and yes I know that Lieberman was the original one but Jimmy Carter was no where this time, who knows by next summer Dennis K could be on the road to the nomination. Theres a lot about him that makes me like him and has him stand out from the others. One thing is his vision for an America that embraces the world and who couldnt love his desire for peace.