Senior Fellow at Cato Institute Writes "The Appeal of Howard Dean"

[DemBones DemBones]

Stephen Moore is not only a Cato Institute Fellow but president of the Club for Growth, two well-known conservative groups. And he likes Howard Dean. He describes Dean speaking at the Cato Institute several years ago:

"You folks at Cato," he told us, "should really like my views because I'm economically conservative and socially laissez-faire." Then he continued: "Believe me, I'm no big-government liberal. I believe in balanced budgets, markets, and deregulation. Look at my record in Vermont." He was scathing in his indictment of the "hyper-enthusiasm for taxes" among Democrats in Washington.

Moore says that after Dean left, there was near unanimous agreement that Cato had finally found "a Democrat we could work with."

"This all may come as a shock to those following Dean's sudden and unexpected leap-frog over the other Democratic presidential candidates. Running sharply to the left, he's become the darling of the angry liberal intelligentsia. For now at least, he seems to have disavowed his credentials as a free-market enthusiast, a tax cutter, and an enemy of big-government excess. Among the real contenders, he favors the most radical governmental takeover of the health care system, and he supports the biggest tax increase. Also, he was the most vocal opponent of the war in Iraq, verging on pacifism. One thing about Dean, however, remains exactly as I remember it from the day I met him--his unapologetic leftist stands on social issues. As a candidate, he boasts of his support as governor for gay marriages, but as one longtime observer of Vermont politics says, "The one issue he cares most passionately about is pro-choice on abortion, even to the point of holding pro-lifers in total contempt."

"At one time or another, Dean raised just about every tax he could get his hands on. During his 12 years as governor, he upped the corporate income tax rate by 1.5 percentage points, the sales tax by 1 percentage point, the cigarette tax by 50 cents a pack, and the gas tax by 5 cents a gallon. Sure he balanced the budget every year--by digging deeper into Vermonters' wallets. "

"In 1997 his political career looked to be careening out of control. Dean signed into law a Robin Hood school refinancing scheme called Act 60, which guaranteed that every school would spend at least $5,000 per student. To pay for it, dollars would be extracted from wealthy school districts and channeled to the poorer ones. Local property tax assessments, which paid for community schools, were replaced with one uniform statewide property tax. But Vermont's highbrow liberals weren't so interested in redistribution schemes in which they were the ones to be gouged and their own children's schools would lose out. The class warfare plan spontaneously combusted into a thunderous tax revolt across the state. Three donor towns defiantly refused to send their taxes to Montpelier. Vermonter and bestselling author John Irving, a self-described liberal Democrat, famously lambasted the plan as an exercise in "Marxism." In November, voters took their rage out on Dean, who narrowly escaped a career-ending loss by only a few hundred votes.

But he weathered the storm. Dean is nothing if not a survivor--as well as an iconoclast. Even as he pursued wild-eyed social experiments, Dean carefully nurtured a reputation as a "business-friendly" governor. On numerous occasions he pragmatically swept aside onerous environmental regulations and last-use restrictions (this is the greenest state of all) to make room for business expansion and jobs, jobs, jobs. He supported electricity deregulation to take monopolistic pricing power away from big utilities. He even launched one of the nation's most progressive voucher programs for high school students."

http://weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/073ylkiz.asp


There's an old saying about being careful what you wish for.


Do Democrats really wish for deregulation?

voucher programs?

continued "free" market trade policies?

a nominee with a history of raising taxes?

a standard-bearer who thinks balancing budgets is so important he'd amend the Constitution to require it?
(Not mentioned in the article but he has advocated it in the past. On MTP in June, Dean told Russert something to the effect that it might be necessary because, according to him, people in D.C. don't know how to manage money. Transcript available online at MTP site.)

a nominee who has "pragmatically swept aside" environmental regulations to help business interests?


Do the American people really wish for another "business-friendly" governor in the White House?

[w4rma]

1. Dembones, this article is full of blatant exagerations

Its simply an article that takes Dean's moderate positions, exagerates them, then uses those exagerations to paint a straw man of Dean as an extremist. You need to realize that by endorsing this article you are helping the Republicans paint *you* and *me* as extremists, also.

"wild-eyed", "radical", "unapologetic leftist", "verging on pacifism"

None of this is true, and likely none of the rest of the article is true.

[DemBones DemBones]

5. If the article contains statements that are untrue, why not

present evidence to prove that?

The author presents evidence of what he likes about Dean -- his support of deregulation, vouchers, "free" trade, balanced budgets. He thinks Dean is too far left on social issues but he likes his fiscal policies.

If you're denying that these are Dean's fiscal policies, post a link to another resource.

[w4rma]

7. I see enough exaggerations in the editorial to write it off all together

IMHO, if you think so highly of this guy's opinion, you should present evidence to back *him* up.

[XanaDUer]

15. Good suggestion, DB DB

The Cato Institute's praise of Dean should put put progressives on alert about Dean's potential presidency.

[dsc]

21. Here are some that are matters of public record

Dean isn't calling for the most radical health care plan of the candidates who can win (Gephardt is). While Act 60 certainly hurt Dean at the polls, he also signed a little law called the civil unions bill which caused him to have to wear a bullet proof vest while campaigning. (source Time article on Dean in August issue of Time) I think that may have hurt him at the polls as well. Those are two glaring, utterly obvious errors in the very, very limited amount you actually chose to quote. I would imagine I could find right wing hack jobs on Kucinich but unlike you I wish people to vote for my candidate not against other peoples.

[polpilot]

24. Dean's intelligence and abilities simply appeal to many people and

organizations that want to be a part of Dean's vision. There is a long line of those waiting for the Dean presidency and this is just another example of Dean's broad appeal.

Dean '04...A Leader For ALL Americans

[indigo32]

22. DemBones

first of all, I'd like to to point out that I've never seen anything backing up the assertion that Dean supported vouchers. I DON'T find balancing the budget to be a negative.

On a personal note... I find that the hyperbole in that article instantly dicredits the author in my book. If they can't make their point in any other way, then they aren't worth the time. YOU seem to keep saying that about us... but you are posting articles that do the opposite of what you preach. BTW I would feel the same way if it was an article about any of the candidates... NOT JUST DEAN.

Finally I wouldn't call it a ringing endorsement.

[DemBones DemBones]

33. I don't understand your complaint. The author is complimentary

about Dean, only disagreeing with some of his leftist social policies. "I wouldn't call it a ringing endorsement"??? Well, I wouldn't, either. It's not an endorsement but is a primarily faorable analysis. Did you read the entire article? He ends by saying Dean could beat Bush*.

The vouchers issue is one dsc is asking about and what he found doesn't seem to answer the question. I'm sure if someone e-mailed Stephen Moore, he could tell you.

[dsc]

37. that is flat out bullshit

That is a recent, neutral piece, which discusses VOUCHERS THROUGHOUT THE US. It plainly states, in clear, concise, readily understood English that the voucher program in Vermont is over 100 years old and doesn't finance religious schools nor does it take money from any existing school district. Frankly, if that isn't a good enough answer for you then I fail to see why emailing the Dean campaign would be. I presume you would then accuse me of quoting the campaign who you would say has reason to lie.

On edit To be absolutely sure I checked again. This is plainly labeled as an Education Week piece, dated 31 October 01, and is entitled State Voucher Programs. Given the fact that Dean was only Governor for an additional year, two months, and three days you are left with one of the following for this not to be a refutation:

A) These people are liars who purposely left out an existing program started by Dean (I think you at least need to give a reason why they lied).

B) These people, whose job it is to write about education, were utterly incompetent and didn't know about this voucher program started by Dean. Again this magazine is named Education Weekly. This would be a pretty big mistake.

C) Dean passed this voucher program and no one, no where, commented on it either when he did (sometime between 1 Nov 01 and 3 Jan 03) or since DESPITE THE FACT HE WAS RUNNING FOR THE WHITE HOUSE.

Or we can believe that:
a man whose whole agenda is a lie (the man you chose to quote) is the one telling who is lying. And BTW neither he, nor you, have presented a link to the program, articles about the program, people served by the program, or even anything but a vauge description of the program. I know who I believe and am beginning to understand your fondness for other, dishonest, Dean bashers.

[dsc]

40. Kick for an answer

I would like to know who you believe Education Week or your lying scumbag progrowther.

[dsc]

25. Here is evidence he is lying about vouchers

www.edweek.org/ew/newstory.cfm?slug=05scotusbox.h21


Vermont


Some consider the state's 132-year-old practice of "tuitioning" to be the first voucher program in the nation. In some 90 towns without their own public high schools, districts pay tuition to send some 6,500 children to private, secular high schools or nearby public high schools. Tuition was paid for religious schools until 1961, when the state courts ruled the practice unconstitutional. A few years ago, one town sought to reinstate religious schools as a choice under the program, but the Vermont Supreme Court ruled in 1999that such participation would violate the establishment clause

end of quote.

Note here the key differences between this plan and vouchers. It is limited to places that have no public schools. It is pretty hard to take money away from non existent entities. It has banned religious schools from participating since 1961 (a ban upheld by the Dean appointed 1999 Vermont Supreme Court). So much for establishment clause problems. So this is just like the vouchers we complain about except that it doesn't take funds from public schools and spend them on religious ones. Oops that is the real problems with vouchers ain't it. This took one search to find. You used a right wing source quoted in a right wing magazine. Shame on you for telling us it is our job to do your homework. But here I went and did it anyway. Double premptive shame when you later accuse me of not having rebutted this. Given your record in that regard I am pretty sure you will do exactly that.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

27. Can't get any of the bullshit to stick when dsc is on the case

Thanks for doing the homework on this. Funny how people think they are going to get people to vote for their candidate by spouting untruths about another. Why not just point out the valid differences in the candidates and let each person decide?

[DemBones DemBones]

30. Shame on me? When people post articles criticizing Kucinich,

they don't also post articles rebutting those articles. We Kucinich supporters get the links for rebuttals. Why shouldn't other people do the same for their candidates? And when have I ever accused you falsely? You're getting a little wild with the accusations there. If you prove any of the facts cited are wrong, I'll certainly give you credit for it and I'll put a note in the thread about it.

At this point, I can't agree you have rebutted it since this talks about a 132 year- old voucher system in Vermont while Moore mentions a "progressive voucher system" initiated by Dean. Maybe it has something to do with this Dean-appointed court. I don't have a clue what he's talking about but I'm sure he does. Why not e-mail him and find out?

[dsc]

35. several things

First I want a citation of the thread I have posted on Kucinich, for that matter I would like some of other Dean supporters doing this as well. For it to be the same thing you did I want it to be a right wing source (like the Weekly Standard).

Second, I went to a neutral source that was about school vouchers in the United States. It was current. It mentioned nothing like what this conservative liar you quoted said. Maybe, just maybe, because like the liar he is he was lying. Gee, fancy that. You, not I, need to find a non right wing source to back up YOUR CLAIM. If you are too damn lazy to do this then that is too bad.

Third, you have consistenly, as in over and over again, claimed that the utter lies of another poster have not been rebutted by Dean supporters including me. You have done this not withstanding us doing so both within the threads he has posted and in several stand alone threads. It is that record to which I refer.

[stickdog]

2. Yeah, that's just a resounding libertarian endorsement!

It's obvious Stephen Moore thinks Dean is the best thing since Goldwater. :eyes:

[liberalnurse]

3. The Weekly Standard.....oh....

what a worthless rag.......

[cprise]

4. The article seems to prove Dean has his own brand of centrism

...and that he is less likely to resort to half-measures.

No doubt he has moved to the left on certain issues post-bubble and post-Enron: he wants more regulation in certain areas such as international trade and labor.

We need someone in the whitehouse like Dean who believes in the value of the public sector, and who is committed to peace. No other promiment Democrat believes in or would stand up for these princicples. The fact that Dean has been willing to try a couple things to the benefit of the private sector does not change his overall direction and efficacy as a politician.

[DemBones DemBones]

6. "No other prominent Democrat" supports these principles because

they're not traditional Democratic principles.

[Larkspur]

8. There is nothing wrong with being "business-friendly"

A lot of business owners are Democrats. Met one from Iowa at the AAUW convention in June and she was excited about Howard Dean. She is also very active in the Democratic Party in Iowa and was asked by her Democratic governor to run for one of Iowa's offices, but she had to decline due to contractural obligations. Not all business owners are crooks.

And there is nothing wrong with government given businesses tax breaks as long as businesses invest in the country and their communities. That's why Dean favors small businesses, because they are less likely to take their business and jobs to India.

The problem happens when government is reduced to a corporate slave and that is what we have right now in Washington.

[DemBones DemBones]

31. Democrats in Vermont say Dean was TOO "business-friendly"

I agree that being "business-friendly" is fine, up to a point. A balance is needed. Does being a former stockbroker (and son of a big honcho at Dean Witter) mean he leans too far toward business? That's the sort of question I want an answer to.

[LuminousX]

42. Yet they still kept electing him

those poor deluded Vermonters.

[AP]

9. Why was Dean trying to sell himself to the Cato Institute?

First off, anyone who has a copy of The Best Democracy Money should read about how the Cato Institute is financed and what drives their politics. If you think "business friendly" isn't a bad thing, then you need to read Pallast to put that phrase in perspective, especially in relation to the Cato Institute.

As for the article, there are some things in it hat make Dean look good (school spending progressively financed -- but why did he try to get the money from individuals and not business property tax? -- and raising corporate taxes 1.5%). However, there's lots in there that should give DU'ers pause.

Does anyone really think that the balance of power hasn't shifte too far towards corporations already?

[DrFunkenstein]

10. Ok, Now I Give Dean Hell

But this guy is the President of Club For Growth (think Grover Norquist). If any Dean fans had bothered to read the article, they would have found plenty of (for liberals, at least) pro-Dean passages.

--

Indeed, Dean has taken many positions that should make life easy for the Republicans' opposition research team. As governor, he supported and successfully enacted a whole menu of dimwitted liberal causes: a state-funded universal health care system (which as president he would take nationwide), government-subsidized child care (even for the rich), a higher minimum wage, a mega-generous prescription drug benefit for seniors with incomes up to four times the poverty level, one of the nation's most liberal mandatory family-leave laws, and taxpayer-funded campaigns. It's no wonder the "Almanac of American Politics" calls Dean "one of the four or five most liberal governors in America."

...

Republicans are said to be salivating over the prospect of a Bush-Dean match-up. They shouldn't get carried away. Howard Dean, warns John McClaughry, has been "underestimated throughout his political career. He has an uncanny knack for finding where the political capital is stored and walking off with it." The trick for Dean is to ensure that the ultra-liberal positions he has taken in the primaries, which contradict his sometimes centrist record, don't cripple his ability to reach out to Middle American voters in a general election--should he make it that far. If he does, and then finds a way to zig-zag back toward the center, Howard Dean could be George W. Bush's worst nightmare.

[opstachuck]

11. so he's a Marxist and business-friendly?

sorry, the logic of this post seems to be a bit muddled. and this actually just reinforces why alot of people like Dean - he can't be pigeon-holed into a set way of thinking. he's not averse to dealing with problems by using logic that stems out of differing ideologies, or rather, he doesn't concern himself with ideology. being a scientist myself, it's a very refreshing change.

[AP]

12. Christopher Hitchens is a Trotskyist (-ite?)

In fact, Sid Blumenthal (in The Clinton Wars) says that lots of these free-market insane RW Republican cheerleaders were Trotsky-devotees earlier in their life.

I'm not saying that's what Dean is (or that it logically follows from this article that he's like the neocons Blumenthal writes about), but the fact appears to be that many neocons "socialism for the wealthy/free markets for the poor' approach to the world actually logically follows from their political rrots.

[AP]

13. I'm amazed this story isn't getting more attention.

[Nicholas_J]

14. Lets look at why a large number of Republicans

Supported Dean in his last run as Governor:

One of those issues was Act 60, a law that many Republicans have opposed. Several times during the news conference, the Republicans said they disagreed with some of Dean's policies but reiterated their support for his fiscal conservatism.

Even Dean acknowledged that his fiscal policy was the common ground he shared with the nine men and two women at the table, most of whom admitted to voting for Dean in the last election.

The group, known as "Republicans for Dean" represents the first organized GOP endorsement for Dean in any of his five campaigns


http://www.rutlandherald.com/election2000/repbackdean.html


Lets see what some Democrats who worked in the legislature in Vermont said about Dean...


Dean kept his distance from his party’s liberals during his governorship.

"He seemed to take glee in attacking us at every opportunity and using us as a way to form alliances with more conservative elements," said former state Sen. Cheryl Rivers, a leader of the state Democrats’ liberal wing and former chairwoman of the powerful Senate Finance Committee.

Dean fashioned himself a position in the political center of Vermont politics even as the state has moved steadily to the left.

http://premium1.fosters.com/2003/news/may%5F03/may%5F19/news/reg%5Fvt0519a.asp

Or a Description of Dean from A Vermont Professor of Political Science:

Indeed, as Norman Solomon observes, there's a real disconnect between Dean's media image and his record.


"But the Democratic Leadership Council need not despair. Most of the nation's political journalists, including pro-Democrat pundits, insist that the party should not nominate someone too far 'left' -- which usually means anybody who's appreciably more progressive than the DLC. That bias helps to account for the frequent mislabeling of Howard Dean, the former Vermont governor who has risen to the top tier of contenders for the 2004 Democratic presidential nomination.
After Dean officially announced his campaign on June 23, some news stories identified him with the left. It's a case of mistaken identity. 'He's really a classic Rockefeller Republican -- a fiscal conservative and social liberal,' according to University of Vermont political scientist Garrison Nelson."

http://www.motherjones.com/news/dailymojo/2003/27/we_473_02.html#one

MOst of Deans support comes from younger people, who are enthused and fired up by what he says, but are totally clueless as to who they are really supporting. Dean says one thing about theWTO as a presidential candidate, but as governor, he virtually set up a WTO in miniature, supporting and brining ito the staete all of those large global conglomerates that progressives tried to halt in Seattle.

it is in Vermont that ADM and Monsanto do the designand planning for all of the Genetically Modified Foods that the E.U. is so opposed to.

THis led to the destruction of 36 percent of Vermonts small farms. ANd the arguments that the small farms should not be supported by subsidies if theny are not profitble.

The large factory farms recieve three times as much money in indirect subsidies for every gallon or bushel of anything they produce through three separate federal grant subsidies from non agricultural government sources.

The reason the Cato Instutute, one of the neo-con thinks tanks beleives they can Dean with Dean is simply that they recognize on of their own.

[Rose Siding]

16. You actually find fault with this?

"In 1997 his political career looked to be careening out of control. Dean signed into law a Robin Hood school refinancing scheme called Act 60, which guaranteed that every school would spend at least $5,000 per student. To pay for it, dollars would be extracted from wealthy school districts and channeled to the poorer..."

Why shouldn't all children get a good eduaction? The only way to grow away from AA is to equalize educational opportunities. Davis took heat from the left for trying to defeat a very similar plan in CA.

That unpopular decision by Dean was one of the first things I respected about him.

[tedoll78]

17. We have/had Robin Hood here in Texas.

I liked it. The poorer school districts actually had a chance at an education quality closer to that of the richer ones. It's a shame that the GOP has sought to gut it... I think it's pretty progressive.

EDIT: BTW, this article makes a lovely case on how easily Dean can shuffle a bit to the center during the general election, should he make it that far. It seems like everyone is piling-on him these days. Pretty funny.

[Mairead]

18. I think that's very progressive and he should get a lot of credit for it

[JohnKleeb]

19. Thats good it is

[AP]

20. The knock on property taxes is that they have become incredibly regressive

By the 90s nearly every town in the country has given away property tax breaks to corporations, so that the property tax burden has shifted almost entirely off the wealthiest taxpayers in society (the corporations) and on to the middle and working class. So when you hear that a government is raising PROPERTY tax to pay for something, what they're saying is we're not going to make corporations and the wealthiest pay of this.

I'm defintiely don't know what was going on in VT (maybe this is the only way the state can rais money for schools) and I don't know what Dean was thinking, but I think it's important to keep this in mind (especially if it's the case that Dean cut huge property tax deals with IBM and Walmart and then turned to everyone else to pay for the schools).

In any event, I think it's important for DU'ers to know that property taxes, although on their face are progressive, are in fact quite regressive as they are applied in the US today.

[Rose Siding]

23. I think I'll NOT keep it in mind

Until you provide evidence that Dean DID cut such "deals". And further, that the alleged "deals" didn't benefit the greater society in any other way.

It's important for DUers to know that schools have to be paid for. Property taxes are a fairly progressive form of taxation.

[dsc]

26. and as I have posted at least five times on this forum

Act 60 made property taxes way less regressive than they were. Here are the changes made by Act 60.

One, it created a statewide property tax which replaced most local ones. This had the effect of cutting property taxes in poor areas and increasing them in wealthy ones.

Two, people could pay the lower of their property tax bill or 2% of their income. This was a special waiver created by this act which saved low income and middle income (aka poor and middle class) taxpayers serious money on property taxes. This had the effect of cutting taxes on low and middle income people and holding the line for the rich.

Now, I know you think Dean is Satan but even you should be able to admit that this was a good thing.

[Mairead]

28. "people could pay their property tax bill or 2% of their income"

That's very nice indeed! Did Dean initiate that, or only sign it?

[dsc]

29. I honestly don't know

He was a driving force behind Act 60 but I don't know what he wrote and what other people put in. He did work very, very hard to pass it.

[DemBones DemBones]

34. It sounds good, alright. Without going back to the article again,

I'm thinking that the author didn't criticize this. I think I bolded a sentence about Prop 60 to explain a sentence later on about Dean winning re-election very narrowly, using bolding just to highlight some major points of the article, not because I thought it was "bad."

[Nicholas_J]

38. One thing that is forgotten about Dean

Is that it was he who was one of the people responsible for selecting and strategising the massively failed Gubernatorial Runs of 2002 for the democratic party:

“And Governor Howard Dean, the Democrats’ chief recruiter of gubernatorial candidates, failed to secure a majority of governorships for his party — even after all the pundits had predicted it. What’s more, Dean couldn’t even keep his own state Democratic. He’ll be replaced by a Republican in January. And to think Dean fancies himself a Presidential candidate.”

http://timesargus.nybor.com/Local_Columnists/Story/56329.html

[AP]

39. Whom exactly did Dean recruit?

The article cited doesn't give any more info.

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/nov2002/nf20021111_0699.htm

[Nicholas_J]

45. All of them...

The DLC and DNC let the governors decide WHO they will try yo recruit for governors races, Senators for the Senate, and so on.

THe DLC appproved of and the DNC gave Dean over 30 million dollars for his campaigns prior to 2000 and after he opted out of Vermonts Clean Election plan, more money.

Dena has been criticised in Vermont by Dems for not campaigning to help Dems beat Republicans when he retired.

Dean was IN CHARGE of the comittee to recruit and plan keeping and winning new gubernatorial seats.

Thats one thing that Deanies forget to credit Dean with when they talk about the reasons for the losses in 2002

[LuminousX]

46. Because the others did sooo well

nt

2002 was a rout for the Democratic Party. Don't blame Dean.

[dsc]

48. That is absurd

Dean had nothing, nada, nihil, not a God damned thing to do with Hagan's run here. He only ran due to the refusual of other Ohioans to do so. I also find beyond absurd that he had anything whatsoever to do with Kathleen Kennedy Townsend's run (which had been planned for ages). Governer's runs are local. He may have recruited a candidate or two but in at least two high profile states (both wins) there were divisive primary runs (MI and PA). In several others there were incumbents or presumptive nominees (here a mixed bag) Incumbents lost in GA, SC, AL, but won in CA. Presumptive nominees lost in MA, MD, HI, and Alaska. Dean deserves no credit for the wins nor blame for the losses in any of those cases. He had absolutely nothing at all to do with recruiting any of those candidates.

[LuminousX]

44. Yeah, 2002

The Year of the DLC.

Yep, a milestone for the Democratic Party who picked up so many seats it scared Bush into being a moderate.

[DemBones DemBones]

32. You shouldn't assume that I agree with or disagree with everything

about Howard Dean, or everything in that article, even in just the few paragraphs I posted.

My aim is to get the information out to other people to make their own decisions.

[Rose Siding]

36. It was highlighted.

Considering the source, I guessed that meant that you considered it a negative. I'm sorry for that misunderstanding.

[LuminousX]

41. Huh...

You can't be fiscally conservative and socially progressive?

Dean sucks, the others are a joke to me (Kucinich, yeah, when monkey's fly out... well, you saw the Daily Show, we are ill prepared for the ass-monkeys, they eat a lot. Kerry reminds me of Herman Munster and the others are just wannabes).

You people vote for one of these losers and I'll vote for whichever one of these idiots you select.

[indigo32]

43. Dang Luminous

They are human beings after all. And all of them way better than Chimpy

[Mairead]

47. "You can't be fiscally conservative and socially progressive? "

Yeah, but nobody has been so far, nor is anyone on the horizon.

The only way to be f.c. and genuinely s.p. is to balance the budget on the backs of the people who can afford it best. Where's the progressivism in (e.g.) a pro-Choice stand if at the same time you set it up such that poorer women can't afford the choices you're nominally supporting?

[dsc]

49. Here are several examples

of social liberals and fiscal conservatives. Every socially liberal state governor is one. Cuomo balanced his budget every year. Celeste in Ohio did the same. Brown of California did so too. There is nothing socially conservative about balancing budgets.

[Mairead]

50. er, those are names, not examples

For them to be examples, you'd have to demonstrate that the balancing was not done on the backs of working people. Simply because the people who did it had Dem labels doesn't tell us anything.

[dsc]

51. Cuomo and Brown both have well known public records

you need to look them up. I will grant you Celeste (though I could swear you told me you were from Ohio which is why I didn't provide info on him). In any case Celeste famously raised the income tax in Ohio from 1% to 1.9% while greatly increasing the exemption. That is pretty progressive and again in this case I honestly thought you to be an Ohioan. I will atempt to find a link on him but you are on your own for Cuomo and Brown since those are pretty famous politicos and have very public records.