They are soldiers!

[Egnever]

I am disapointed Dean backed away from this.

They are fighting for thier homeland however they can. They throw rocks at tanks as thier homes are mowed down. They are fighting a gurilla war on thier own front porch in any way they can.

What would you people that look down on them have them do? Line up in a suicidal assault with thier ak-47's against israels tanks apache helicopters and warplanes?

Is that what you would do?

I sure as hell wouldnt.

Hamas is fighting for palestine if they werent it would be gone allready.

Have you seen a map of israel lately?

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/is.html

Have you compared it to when israel was created?

http://www.israel.org/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0dt70

Are you aware of how many israeli setlements are in palestinian land?



Have you seen how israel is walling off palestinians from thier own land?

http://www.gush-shalom.org/thewall/

Do you realize this leaves palestine with no port whatsoever?

This is a friggin war!

Hamas is fighting in any way they can. When we start giving them billions a year to arm themselves I am sure they will be happy to take the tanks on instead.

Did you think they would do nothing when Isreal started firing missles at thier leaders?

Kerry, palosi and all the rest showing outrage are ill informed pukes if you ask me. I find it reprehensible to denigrate a people fighting to hold onto thier land against an overwhelming force.

It is a tradgedy that we have allowed this situation to continue for so long in our sickening attempt to secure a base of operations we never use.

Dean was right they are soldiers like it or not they are dying and killing to protect thier country. Would you do less?

[Josh]

1. BULLSHIT

They target civilians. Plain and simple. If they're soldiers then they broke their oath long ago.

Hamas is a terrorist organisation. The only time you can even come close to referring to them as 'soldiers' is when they attack army personnel or blow up tanks or barraks - THOSE are military targets, not schools, discos, pizzaerias, busses, and the other places they choose to fire at - and not with sticks and stones, but with SAMs and molotov cocktails and mortars and grenades and AK47s and bombs.

I hate getting drawn into I/P discussions so I'll just leave my two cents and not come back to this thread. But I had to respond, because they're not soldiers.

And well you may say that Israel looks bigger today, but if Israel had lost the wars that THEY DIDN'T START, it would look quite different going the OTHER WAY, except there wouldn't be *anything* close to an Israel of any kind, whereas there can and will be a viable Palestinian state based on the areas that they currently administer.

That's it for me. Goodnight.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

2. My take

I think the point is to not just label them 'terrorists' and write them off as lunatics who can't be reasoned with. The fact is that there is a REASON they are so desperate that they resort to suicide bombings and the like. The point is to look at the reason behind the behavior, try to understand it, and see if there can be a solution that is acceptable to both sides.

I am a teacher, and I have 'good' students and 'bad' students. I can write off the bad students because all they do is disrupt my classes and give me a hard time. Or, I can talk to them and find out why they behave the way they do. Nine out of ten times, when I take the time (often, it takes many months) to get to know them, understand where they are coming from, I can work with them to change their behavior and help them become better students (at least to the point where they are not disrupting class). This takes patience and understanding, and a desire to take the difficult road to remedy the situation, instead of trying to get the student kicked out of my class (the easy solution). In the end, the hard work benefits me, the student, and the class.

It's the label that keeps the process from moving forward. Terrorists, lunatics, soldiers...which label is going to get peace in the end? What is the end result we really want, or what they really want?

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[clar]

9. Care to explain this?

"I am beginning to understand why the German people so easily came to despise the jews, I guess I must call them Israelis."

Nevermind. I figured it out. It's just hate.

Sorry to see it.

[DrFunkenstein]

12. Holy Crap

I can't believe someone actually said this. I am extremely sympathetic to the plight of Palestinians, which mistakenly gets called anti-Semitism (as if all Jews were Israelis, all Israelis were Likud, all Likud were hawkish bastards).

But this is just about as close as were going to see of actual anti-Semitism here at DU (I hope).

Not cool at all.

:thumbsdown:

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

10. Then explain this to me:

Dresden, Nagasaki, Hiroshima. Or is that different?

[pansypoo53219]

11. are the isrealis

just killing soldiers? I keep hearing about CHILDREN BEING SNUFFED ALONG SIDE the 'terrorists'. Don't give me it is JUST THE PALESTINIANS.

BOTH SIDES are commiting evil.

[DrFunkenstein]

14. Absolutely

But giving legitimacy to a terrorist organization at odds with Palestinians committed to peace like Mahmoud Abbas does not help matters.

<>

[Egnever]

19. nor does

Ignoring the fact that israel is slowly but surelysquezing the palestinians out of existance while screaming we want peace.

I am by no means an anti semite. I have zero problem with jewish people. If I did I would never have maried into a jewish family.

hamas is not at odds with peacemakers. They held to the cease fire in order to give the peace a chance meanwhile israel continued its expansion and began targeting hamas leaders. Sory I dont accept the premis that it was hamas that ended the peace process.

[helleborient]

25. But...this is my question...

Did calling Iraqi soldiers soldiers give some special legitimacy to Saddam Hussein?

Didn't we call Japanese and German soldiers soldiers in World War II?

I still don't quite understand what John Kerry's point was...other than to try and inflame pro-Israeli Americans.

[renie408]

41. What do you call?

firing a missile into an apartment building to kill a member of Hamas and wounding children and women in the process? Or firing into a crowd and killing innocent bystanders, including children? What is bombing the house where the leaders of the opposition were meeting in an effort to draw up a peace agreement after they had notified the Israeli government that they would be meeting and where? That, BTW, is one of the things that cranked up the last couple of months of violence from Hamas and Co. As I recall, there had been something like two weeks with no attacks. Members of Palestinian organizations notified Israel that they were going to meet to discuss negotiating for peace. The Israelis bombed the house they were meeting in.

There are no saints here and neither side is in the right. That is why this is such a complicated subject.

[poskonig]

3. Okay, third graders, it is time for a vocabulary lesson.

From dictionary.com:

sol·dier ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sljr)
n.

1. One who serves in an army.
2. An enlisted person or a noncommissioned officer.
3. An active, loyal, or militant follower of an organization.

[Rose Siding]

15. They are soldiers

and saying so doesn't mean they aren't terrorists, does it?

This word came up in an exchange in which Dean *justified* Israel's targeting Hamas SOLDIERS (aka TERRORISTS) for attack.

*BTW, if I don't mention now that I had breakfast does that mean I'm denying that I had breakfast?

[pocoloco]

4. Charlie Reese's Column from Sept 5

gives his current perspective on the ME.

http://reese.king-online.com/Reese_20030905/index.php

*his column is not listed by Drudge this morning, wonder if
it's because of what he wrote about Kerry and Bush Fri?

[Egnever]

24. If only

America would be honest in this situation a lot of our troubles with terorism would end.

Thank you for the article it has a lot of really good points in it. And i agree with the author 100%

[liberalmuse]

5. I can sympathize...

with the Palestinian situation, but it ends where civilians are targetted. As heinous as I think the Israeli/Palestinian situation is, especially for the Palestinians, bombing children and innocent bystanders is not the way to win the hearts and minds of potential supporters. You have to feel pretty desparate to strap a bomb to yourself, but to treat other human beings as if they were just fodder for your cause is despicable. That goes for the Israeli Army, and the Israeli government, too. IMHO, what Israel is doing to the Palestinians is systematic genocide.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

6. "You have to feel pretty desparate to strap a bomb to yourself"

Exactly! Imagine, how desperate do they feel to do this??? The problem is that no one asks that question. How bad must it be in Palestine for them to do this? Is it a simple matter of right vs. wrong? Or can we dig a bit deeper and try to understand what would drive a group of people to resort to this measure?

[molly]

8. How about HATRED - they will never be happy until there is

no Israel. That is how they are taught.

Ask yourself what Arafat has done with all the money coming into Palestine.

[Egnever]

22. And israel will never be happy

till there is no palestine. But its ok for israel to hate isnt it?

I know damn well what israel does with the money they get. They buy tanks and planes and nuclear weapons. Hardly a peacefull nation of victems as you and others would like to portray them.

[helleborient]

27. A question...and for other DU'ers as well...

Do you know anyone who lives in Palestine?

Do you any of the professionals (doctors, lawyers, teachers) who have had their offices raided and looted in Ramallah?

Do you know that a number of Palestinians go to Quaker schools on the West Bank and learn non-violence?

Do you know a significant percentage of Palestinians are Christian and not Muslim?

"That is how they are taught" is a jingoistic generalization you should be ashamed of.

[Egnever]

29. Of course they dont

These people buy into the propaganda pushed on them every day by our media. They are not interested in the truth about the situation. Thank you for the post though Maybe someone will start to look at the situation more honestly after reading it.

[renie408]

42. Wow

I think I could learn to love you.

[DrFunkenstein]

16. Something Like This?

"It's critical that we recognize the conditions that are breeding this virulent new form of anti-American terrorism. If you look at countries stretching from Morocco through the Middle East and beyond...broadly speaking the western Muslim world...what you see is a civilization under extraordinary stress.

A combination of harsh political repression, economic stagnation, lack of education and opportunity, and rapid population growth has proven simply explosive. The streets are full of young people who have no jobs... no prospects... no voice. State-controlled media encourage a culture of self-pity, victimhood and blame-shifting. This is the breeding ground for present and future hostility to the West and our values.

Our goal is not to impose some western free market ideology on the greater Middle East. It's to open up a region that is now closed to opportunity, an outpost of economic exclusion and stagnation in a fast-globalizing world.

These countries suffer from too little globalization, not too much. Without greater investment, without greater trade within the region and with the outside world, without the transparency and legal protections that modern economies need to thrive, how will these countries ever be able to grow fast enough to provide jobs and better living standards for their people? But as we extend the benefits of globalization to people in the greater Middle East and the developing world in general, we also need to confront globalization's dark side.

We should use the leverage of capital flows and trade to lift, not lower, international labor and environmental standards. And in the Middle East especially, we need to be sensitive to fears that globalization will corrupt or completely submerge traditional cultures and mores. We can do these things."

Guess who said it.

[Egnever]

20. Exactly like that

This would be a decent statement if only it wasnt just lip service. You can give the palestinians all the access to trade in the world and as long as you look the other way while thier land is being absorbed into another state this conflict will not end.

LOOK at the blue dots on that map. It disgusts me that anyone can try to defend that with a straight face.

Sure terorism is horible but hardly unexpected given the situation.

[DrFunkenstein]

35. Not Lip Service At All - Check This Out!

Without demanding unilateral concessions, the United States must mediate a series of confidence building steps which start down the road to peace. Both parties must walk this path together - simultaneously. And the world can help them do it. While maintaining our long term commitment to Israel's existence and security, the United States must work to keep both sides focused on the end game of peace. Extremists must not be allowed to control this process.

<>

[Nicholas_J]

17. Soldiers

Are supposed to adhere to international law, and conventions that require they avoid colateral damage, killing of civilians who may or may not have anything to do with, or even agree with the policies of the nations in which they live and in which they become casualties.

Intent makes the differnce between a soldier andterrorist or murderer.


Sorry, this slippery slope Dean and territory he has entered won't scour.

If it does, than any action, by any group for any reason they beleive is just is enough to validate ANY action by those people.

If Hamas suicide bombers are soldiers, than Bush's description of thise in Guantanamo as Enemy comabattants becomes equally valid, and the war on Iraq, totally justified, simply because Iraq had fired on the U.N. sanctioned U.S. and British War Planes in the no fly zones set up in the documents ending the Guf War. Hussein fired on planes that were monitoring these zones in accordance with conditions Hussein agreed on, and such hostile actions could easily said to have been Hussein STARTING a waw against the U.S.

Once you validate the action of terrorists in an attempt to validate the plight their people may be in, you validate the response to terrorist acts, which is what Israel does, ging in and destroying entire apartment complexes, killing dozens of innocent adults nad childreen in order to kill one person they have defined as a a terrorist.

Dena was wrong, and less significant, mistaken comments have resulted in full scale wars in the past.

Dean is no diplomat, and the current political situation demands tat whoever becomes president can control his mouth and tongue at ALL TIMES.

Thats what the intention of internatioal law regarding war is. Ithas been established to prevent ANYONE from rewriting the rules that the civilized world and its members play by, and to prevent one small group from controlling the atempts to peacefully move towards conciliation.

There are those in Israel, who beleive that the borders of Israel, as defined by the bible, "From the Banks of the Nile to the Euphrates" are the God Given borders of Israel. Add there are those among the Palestinians who beleive that Israel has NO right to exist. Both ideas are extremeist and the use of terrorism to oppose the will of the majority of the people in a nation or area does not justify the use or terror or murder in the name of these ideas.

It does not make the terrorists who fight for such ideas on either side, soldiers.

Those who fight for Israel to prevent its destruction are soldiers. Thise who kill innocents not involvedd with the attempt to destroy Israel may wear uniforms, are not.

But the same applies to organizatios like Hamas or Islamic Jihad, who DO NOT RECOGNIZE the right of Israel to exist. Thest are not soldiers, but terrorists. This who fight the Israeilis in an attempt to gains a Palestinian stae are soldiers, whetther they wear a uniform or not.

Intent is all in this.

[helleborient]

28. More stupidity...

It says nothing in my dictionary about soldiers adhering to international law...and a number of times ours haven't, and we didn't stop calling them soldiers.

[sandnsea]

18. Wake up wake up wake up wake up

Goddammit people. It does not matter one teeny tiny bit what YOU think a soldier is. It doesn't matter. It's not the issue. This isn't a fucking elementary school game of bullshit the teacher and get an A.

The right knows the difference between a soldier and a terrorist. Hamas is a terrorist organization. It is on the US terrorist list. Israel does not think their children are being bombed in shopping malls by soldiers. I don't think the people killed in the WTC were killed by soldiers. You don't have to get it, believe it or like it. The rest of America does and anybody who has ever been targeted by terrorists does. Howard Dean said something insulting and stupid. If he's nominated, be prepared to hear that we cannot elect a Commander in Chief who thinks soldiers and terrorists are the same thing.

[Egnever]

21. Sorry

But i have to dissagree. The people that bombed the WTC absolutely were soldiers. IT was a heinus act to be sure but it doesnt lessen the fact that it was carried out as part of a war agaist the US.

Look I am not saying I endorse terorism or that I like it but I do see it for what it is A desperate act by desperate people. As long as we bury our heads in the sand and demonize terorists as some sort of whakos that do it for no reason other than because they hate us this crap will never end.

[LuminousX]

23. Interesting Question

Can you fight wars against people who aren't soldiers?

[Egnever]

26. Absolutely

And you can win them.

Look at hiroshima. War won with the mass slaughter of innocents with the promise of more to come.

[sandnsea]

31. Then you ought to support the war

Because when you're in a war, you defend yourself. If they're out to wipe us off the face of the earth by any means necessary, then military action is an appropriate recourse.

If, on the other hand, you actually see the desperation of people and how that contributes to the growth of terrorism, you do what Senator Kerry would do. You separate the terrorists from the legitimate governments in the Middle East. You use international cooperation and intelligence to break up terrorist organizations. You invest heavily in Middle Eastern countries to give their people hope of a better future. You put pressure on those countries to change thier governments. And with the I/P, you create a parallel peace process where one side does one thing at the same time the other side does their thing. Then you move forward to the next step.

Senator Kerry is the only candidate in this campaign that stands a chance at doing anything to truly move the world forward, especially in light of what Bush has done in the last few years.

[DrFunkenstein]

37. Beautifully Said

That was a nice demonstration of eloquence. I agree with you completely.

[Egnever]

43. Sounds reasonable

Except hamas is not only terorists. It is part of the full package that is hamas to be sure but far from the whole thing.

Statements like kerry's way oversimplify the situation and tend to try to label hamas as terorists. If you try to walk in and ignore Hamas you will get no where fast real fast. The answer isnt to get the terorists out its to bring the terorists in. Israel has been trying to get the terorists out for 50 years. Its working great so far.

[sandnsea]

45. Arafat

Isn't he the one who represents the Palestinian people? Or has that all just been a big joke my entire life?

[Egnever]

46. He is certainly the figurehead

but dont be foooled into thinking he controls all that happens in israel.

I am not really clear on what you are saying here though. Are you sugesting that removing arafat is the answer?

[sandnsea]

49. Where did you get that?

A mayor, governor or president doesn't control every human in the US either. But when the KKK is rounding up blacks and hanging them from trees, it isn't going to stop unless a leader steps forward and denounces it and forces the local authorities to arrest and convict the guilty parties. Leaders have a responsibility for their people, Arafat was the responsible party for the Palestinian people. Nobody ever brought the KKK to the bargaining table in the south. And they're not soldiers either, no matter how much they may think they're on a crusade for white people. And the anti-abortion fundamentalists can call themselves the Army of God all they want; but when they shoot doctors, they're murdering terrorists.

Moving forward in Israel can happen, by negotiating with the representative of the Palestinians and by the Palestinians stopping the acts of the terrorists. And by the US pressuring Israel to stop the military actions as well, provided there are no further terrorist attacks.

[DrFunkenstein]

36. You Give Them Far Too Much Dignity

They were criminals, cold-blooded bastards. Maybe you believe that they had legitimate concerns, but their actions were murderously illegitimate.

I do not believe they hate us because of our freedom or any of that other bull. There are real causes for concern regarding American history, especially in the Middle East. Anyone who has ever read Howard Zinn can tell you that. But I do NOT believe an eye for an eye is a legitimate philosophy.

It is entirely possible to look at the roots of terrorism, as Kerry has clearly done, without granting a status to terrorists that they do not deserve.

[helleborient]

30. Yes, and wake up this way as well...

And recognize that the Israeli Army bulldozed an American protestor, bulldozes private homes, destroys offices, looting computers and data files from doctors offices, destroys agricultural crops (olive groves with trees hundreds of years old)...we won't even start with environmental destruction.

If you really believe there is such a significant difference in tactics btw Hamas and the Israeli Army...you should be very happy with everything our military has done in Iraq, because it is not nearly so vicious as some of what the Israeli Army has done against Palestinians.

[sandnsea]

32. So let's make it worse

Let's identify Hamas as soldiers and give Israel the full authority to fight them by any means necessary.

[helleborient]

33. No, why not...

Deligitimize military force on both the Israeli and Palestinian sides?

If they were forced to play by international law rules, it would be an entirely different situation. Unfortunately, John Kerry and plenty of others completely legitimize the tactics of the Israeli Army even though Israel regularly opposes any investigations of their human rights abuses.

[DrFunkenstein]

38. Let's Start By Giving 4x The Military Aid To One Side

No conditions. Let's just promise it to them. Throw in $10 billion in loan guarantees so they can cover the cost of putting up the separation wall and pave over Palestinian homes.

[sandnsea]

40. And the terrorism would stop???

This most recent violence all started because Ariel Sharon visited the Temple Mount, that's it. And no matter how many times Israel has pulled troops back, the terrorist bombings always continue. I don't like the military methods used by Israel, but to pretend the terrorist attacks would stop if the Israeli army stopped goes against what history has already shown. And anybody who seriously believes a teeny tiny country of Jews in the center of a vast area of Muslims would intentionally cause all these problems, well I don't think they're using their common sense too well. It's all alot older and alot more complicated than that.

And regardless of any of this, the majority of Americans are not going to elect a candidate who calls terrorists 'soldiers' and that's what Howard Dean did. You may think Hamas are freedom fighting heros, most of the rest of the world does not.

[ima_sinnic]

34. yes, who gives a fuck what they're called

this "they're not soldiers" tripe accomplishes nothing.
Our own U.S. "soldiers" just killed 10 Iraqi police, who are civilians. What should I call them?
U.S. "soldiers" in VietNam rounded up and massacred civilians suspected of being "Cong" collaborators. What should I call them?
And of course those atomic bombs over Japan in WWII. What should I call the people who dropped those?
Do the ones who are SO offended by the use of the holy word "soldier" really think that this is some frikkin gentleman's war where the rule book is actually taken seriously? The U.S.'s own violations of the Geneva Accords would fill several volumes.
Of all the things to slam Dean for, this is the dumbest.

[w4rma]

39. This makes me wonder what the heck Sharon thinks he's trying to do

There are Israeli settlements dotting nearly every part of the West Bank/Palistine. It's obvious to any non-idiot that either Palestine will have to become part of Israel or a bunch of Iraeli settlements will have to be given to the Palestinians.

[Egnever]

44. I am glad someone else

Was as appalled as I was to see all of those dots. I had read many times of the israeli settlements and had imagined them on the borders of the teritories not dispersed throughout. I had imagined a slow encroachment, after seeing this today for the first time i see it more as a planed takeover.

It shocked me and I was already outraged about the situation before seeing the map.

[Tinoire]

47. Well, here is his latest statement: Not in this Generation

Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has changed his mind about the establishment of a Palestinian state. At least so writes his good friend and confidante, journalist Uri Dan.

<snip>

"The Palestinian leadership will not get to see a Palestinian state - at least not in this generation. The chance that they were given has expired." Dan, who has never been known to criticize a position taken by Sharon, wrote that the events of the past few days have convinced the Prime Minister that the PA must "disappear from the map."
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=49582

An even more dangerous situation when you consider the support he has:

Jerusalem Post Says: "Kill Arafat"
19:29 Sep 11, '03 / 14 Elul 5763


The Jerusalem Post took a strong editorial stand today, calling on Israel to kill Yasser Arafat:
"The world will not help us; we must help ourselves. We must kill as many of the Hamas and Islamic Jihad leaders as possible, as quickly as possible, while minimizing collateral damage, but not letting that damage stop us. And we must kill Yasser Arafat, because the world leaves us no alternative."

<snip>

The paper then explains why expelling Arafat would not work: "he will be as much or more of a problem when free to travel the world than he is locked up in Ramallah," especially in light of the fact that the U.S., Germany and France will not boycott him. "When the breaking point arrives," the paper concludes, "there is no point in taking half-measures. If we are going to be condemned in any case, we might as well do it right. Arafat's death at Israel's hands would not radicalize Arab opposition to Israel; just the opposite... Arafat does not just stand for terror, he stands for the refusal to make peace with Israel under any circumstances and within any borders. In this respect, there is no distinction, beyon d the tactical, between him and Hamas."

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=49615

So here we go... TOTALLY missing the point that these courageous conscientious objector soldiers understood 3 years ago:

We, who know that the Territories are not Israel, and that all settlements are bound to be evacuated in the end.
We hereby declare that we shall not continue to fight this War of the Settlements.
We shall not continue to fight beyond the 1967 borders in order to dominate, expel, starve and humiliate an entire people.
We hereby declare that we shall continue serving in the Israel Defense Forces in any mission that serves Israel’s defense.
The missions of occupation and oppression do not serve this purpose – and we shall take no part in them.

http://www.seruv.org.il/defaulteng.asp

[Egnever]

48. Thank you tinoire

Yet another great post from you :yourock: