Howard Dean Should Heed His Own Advice.

[blm]

What a load of disingenuous sanctimony from Dean last night complaining about Gephardt pointing out how he stood with Gingrich's plan for Medicare, and lashing out at Kerry for defending Gephardt.

What hypocrisy!

bostonherald.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dean rips Kerry as Bush Lite
by David R. Guarino
Thursday, September 18, 2003



MANCHESTER, N.H. - Front-running Democrat Howard Dean, letting loose after weeks of sniping by rival John F. Kerry, yesterday branded Kerry a budget-fudging Bush defender who epitomizes Beltway politics as usual.

In a bare-knuckled rebuke here and on Kerry's Bay State turf, Dean alluded to Kerry as ``Bush Lite'' and lambasted the senator for defending some Bush tax cuts.

``I get criticized for saying we should repeal all the Bush tax cuts, we need to repeal all those tax cuts,'' Dean told an audience at St. Anselm's College. ``We cannot approach this campaign being the usual folks, politicians in Washington who promised everybody everything.''

Later, at a union gathering in North Andover, Dean lambasted Kerry for using fuzzy math to say the middle class is being helped by some cuts.

``Sen. Kerry unfortunately is using the Bush figures to defend the Bush tax plan, I think that's a mistake on Sen. Kerry's part,'' Dean told reporters, saying most middle income earners got hundreds - not thousands - from the cuts.

``We can't have politicians promising health care, special education and a tax cut too - that's not going to happen. I think some truth in budgeting is necessary.''

Kerry spokeswoman Kelley Benander said Kerry is using non-partisan figures from the Brookings Institute and the Joint Committee on Taxes for his estimates - not the White House.
>>>>>>>>>>>>


John Kerry Should Heed His Own Advice
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
September 25, 2003

At virtually the same time John Kerry sent out a fundraising email to supporters vowing to fight back against the politics of personal destruction, he failed to take his own high-minded advice. At the moment in the debate when Kerry had a chance to take the high road and join with Sen. Edwards in calling for the candidates to focus on their own plans and visions and not criticize each other, Sen. Kerry instead joined Dick Gephardt and resorted to the politics of the past by seconding the ridiculous comparison of Gov. Dean to Newt Gingrich.

Despite stating in his email, "I have taken the high road in this campaign," John Kerry continues to distort Gov. Dean's record and attack him at every turn.

John Kerry will soon learn that he is right that these tactics turn good people away from the process. That is why more than 425,000 people have joined Gov. Dean's call for a new people-powered politics based on participation and hope, rather than based on the politics of the past and fear.
John Kerry should heed his own call.

www.deanforamerica.com

In FACT...Transcripts prove that Dean twisted Gephardt's point into a personal attack when it was clearly a policy issue as Kerry pointed out in defense of Gephardt.

As posted by Karmadillo:
1. Gephardt compared a specific position Dean took regarding Medicare (cutting it by $270 billion dollars--I assume this refers to an attempt to decrease the rate of the program's growth). Here's the quote from the Washington Post transcript:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A433-2003Sep25.html
<edit>

GEPHARDT: Howard and I just have a basic disagreement. He said in, I think, 1993 that Medicare was the worst federal program ever. He said that it was the worst thing that ever happened.

He also supported, at our darkest hour--when I was leading the fight against Newt Gingrich and the Contract With America, he was shutting the government down--Howard, you were agreeing with the very plan that Newt Gingrich wanted to pass, which was a $270 billion cut in Medicare.
more...

2. Dean later said:
DEAN: <edit> But I do think it's important that if folks are going to talk about us being like Newt Gingrich, that we're not going to stand for that. There is nobody up here that's like Newt Gingrich, and I think we have to understand that.

3. Kerry appeared to go out of his way to point out no one was saying Dean was like Gingrich (a genuinely bad guy). Gephardt had simply pointed out Dean and Gingrich had stood together to cut Medicare. Big difference.

KERRY: Well, in defense of Dick Gephardt, I didn't hear him say he was like Newt Gingrich, I heard him say that he stood with Newt Gingrich when we were struggling to hold on to Medicare. That's a policy difference.
more...

[AWD]

1. The broken record again???

Geez, I thought we got that turntable fixed.

No campaign plan = attack the opposition (weakly) = John-John Jr.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Octafish]

74. blm's tired of seeing Kerry smeared by Dean...

And I'm tired of blm being smeared by Dean's supporters.

blm posted info from — and LINKS TO — NEWS ARTICLES and commented on it. So, why all the personal vitriol? Is there some DOUBT creeping into your minds about Ho-Ho? I hope so.

For the true believers, a News Flash: Dean's shit stinks.

Like blm and those named elsewhere on this thread, I've noticed it too. And it isn't just calling the other Dems Bush-lite, either. Dean sealed his gubernatorial papers for 10 years, because he knows that stuff in them will torpedo his "future endeavors."

So, go ahead. Make my day. Kick in a few bucks for me! I'm sure the draft-dodging mogul-jumper appreciates it.

BTW: blm contributes more than just pro-Kerry stuff to DU. You ever hear of the BFEE? blm's posted a lot of the info and links that long-time DUers know and use.

As for the rest of the Kerry bashers: WTF? The guy's not perfect. Still, like my daddy says about me, "He's strong as a horse and twice as smart."

[unfrigginreal]

2. If anyone would know about sanctimony...

it's Kerry folks!

[dsc]

3. Please point out the place

where Dean says "Bush lite" in any of this. The closest he comes is in his criticism of Kerry's numbers defending his tax plan which while unartfully expressed (the problem isn't the numbers it is the people Kerry chose) is a very valid point. He is using the same method (chosing people who are not representative and are disproportionately helped) that Bush uses.

[DemBones DemBones]

8. It says so in the title of the first article and again in the body of it.

Dean rips Kerry as Bush Lite
by David R. Guarino
Thursday, September 18, 2003

"In a bare-knuckled rebuke here and on Kerry's Bay State turf, Dean alluded to Kerry as ``Bush Lite'' and lambasted the senator for defending some Bush tax cuts."

Click here for the article preview (includes abve quote)

http://www.bostonherald.com/cgi-bin/www.bostonherald.com/search/search.bg

and from there you canbuy the entire article if you like.

[acerbic]

How passive-aggressively obtuse can Dean haters get when they really try?

Cthulhu knows... :eyes:

[dsc]

31. I will not buy the whole article

it is the Dean bashers job not mine to back this shit up. No where in the parts where they actually quote Dean do the words Bush lite get used. So one again shoe me where Dean says Bush lite . Hint, I want the term used in a quote that has some context. I think, though I could be wrong, that the use you sited is the reporters interpretation of what Dean said. I am sure the title is.

[DemBones DemBones]

75. I cited the article blm cited and I gave you the URL. I'm not

going to buy the article, either, so you'll have to ask blm if there's a direct quote in which Dean uses the term "Bush lite." Or buy the article if you want to try to prove the reporter wrong.

However, there are other quotes of Dean using the term "Bush lite" (cited in this very thread) so I think you're barking up the wrong tree here. Dean has used the term to diss other candidates and no amount of context is going to prove otherwise.

No need to get hostile with me when I'm providing info that you asked for. I went to the trouble to find the link, too, when you could have easily found the title, quote, and source from blm's post.

[dsc]

86. to be blunt

why should I? Frankly I am getting beyond tired of being told by Dean bashers that it is somehow my job to find links that they won't provide. Even when I quote things from my local paper here I go to the trouble of finding the link since I think that is what I should be doing. Or if no link exists then I cleary state that. While I know it isn't a rule to provide links to articles one posts here it is common curtesy and one that Dean bashers increasingly don't do. To my knowledge, Dean hasn't used Bush lite in reference to candidates for a while. I wanted to know, without having to pay, if blm found him doing so. A link isn't that much to ask but evidently for Dean bashers it is. Frankly, I find that odd.

[dsc]

87. to be blunt

why should I? Frankly I am getting beyond tired of being told by Dean bashers that it is somehow my job to find links that they won't provide. Even when I quote things from my local paper here I go to the trouble of finding the link since I think that is what I should be doing. Or if no link exists then I cleary state that. While I know it isn't a rule to provide links to articles one posts here it is common curtesy and one that Dean bashers increasingly don't do. To my knowledge, Dean hasn't used Bush lite in reference to candidates for a while. I wanted to know, without having to pay, if blm found him doing so. A link isn't that much to ask but evidently for Dean bashers it is. Frankly, I find that odd.

[w4rma]

4. blm, these smears hurt Kerry. Does Kerry have anything positive to say?

Does Kerry have anything negative to say about Bush?

Why does Kerry prefer to attack Democrats instead of attacking Bush?

[AWD]

15. He has to wait...

...until somebody tells him something nice to say first.

[acerbic]

5. Propaganda analysis:

It CLAIMS that Dean alluded to Kerry as "Bush Lite'' and quotes something that Dean said which was NOT "Kerry as Bush Lite". Why not show a quote that would actually back up the claim?
Maybe because no such quote could be found and the claim is nothing but fermented BS...? :think:

[blm]

12. Dean supporters show up with cases of Busch Lite at Kerry events.

I am SURE Dean has never said it, even though several papers have now printed it, including Dean saying after a Kerry speech that Democrats didn't need Bushlite OR a Deanlite.

You all can deny it all you want, it just proves you are uncomfortable with its blatant falseness and probably WISH that Dean and those supporters WOULDN'T have used it.

[acerbic]

13. Tons of claims; no direct quotes, ever.

Pretty desperate. :eyes:

[blm]

29. Why pretend he hasn't been saying it since Jan. 23?

http://www.cmonitor.com/stories/news/local2003/012303dean_2002.shtml

I can't wait for those four guys from Congress to come up here and explain to us why they wanted to raise your property taxes after they supported a tax cut for the wealthiest people in America," he said.

Dean also criticized his opponents for voting to give Bush a "blank check" on military intervention in Iraq - and, now, changing their tune on the issue.

"Today, they're running around telling you folks they're all anti-war," he said. (Later, he acknowledged that Lieberman's vote was consistent with the senator's comparatively "hawkish" position on Iraq.) "We're never going to elect a president that does those things. If I voted for the Iraq resolution, I'd be standing in favor, supporting it right now in front of you."

Dean said he would have voted instead for the Biden-Lugar resolution, which he said supported disarming Saddam using multilateral action, and which did not call for a "regime change."
>>>>>>
So Democrats, he concluded, must nominate a candidate who can win.

"Remember," he said, "we're not going to beat Bush with Bush lite."

[AWD]

34. Sigh....

....somebody fix the turntable. It keeps skipping the same line over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over aand over and over and over and over and over and over nd over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over aand over and over and over and over and over and over nd over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over aand over and over and over and over and over and over nd over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over aand over and over and over and over and over and over nd over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over aand over and over and over and over and over and over nd over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over aand over and over and over and over and over and over nd over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over aand over and over and over and over and over and over nd over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over aand over and over and over and over and over and over nd over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over aand over and over and over and over and over and over nd over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over aand over and over and over and over and over and over nd over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over aand over and over and over and over and over and over nd over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over aand over and over and over and over and over and over nd over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over aand over and over and over and over and over and over nd over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over aand over and over and over and over and over and over nd over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over aand over and over and over and over and over and over nd over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over

[blm]

47. Tell YOUR side to stop asking for it.

So I don't have to repeat it.

[AWD]

58. "stop asking for it"?????

Geez, I'd hate to hear your theories on rape, especially if you think you have to attack because people "ask for it".

And I was under the impression that MY side was the Democratic Party.

[blm]

60. Asking for the proof or the links.

They act like they don't remember or never heard of it before.

Why purposely change my meaning to attack me further?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

24. When will you realize that on a few IMPORTANT votes

Kerry WAS Bush-lite. No one at DU is saying that Kerry isn't one of our great Democratic treasures. However, when we NEEDED him most, he flinched.

[blm]

32. What in Dean's record proves to you that he wouldn't

have been the same centrist in Congress that he was as Governor?

Plenty has been posted here of Dean's own words and actions that show his hardline on security and law and order issues.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

40. Is Kerry for insecurity and lawlessness?

I trust him. Nothing complicated. If you don't, don't vote for him.

[blm]

44. I think Dean's a fraud.

But he is much less dangerous than Bush, so I would vote for him if he was the nominee.

[AWD]

51. Suuuuure he is

...say, remember that time he voted to allow a war, but claimed he was against it??

What a fraud that Dean is.

Oh wait.....never mind.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

52. I know you do.

I don't think Kerry is a fraud. Nor is Dean. Dean is exactly who he says he is. And despite your spinning, his record proves it. We'll agree to disagree.

I expect no more anti-Dean threads from you. Since I've never posted an anti-Kerry thread, I'll continue along as usual.

[blm]

62. But, you cheer those who do

and never once acknowledged that fact, instead you attack me for defending Kerry from the Bushlite attacks started over 9 months ago. Is Kerry so undeserving of defense in your eyes? Especially since most of the attacks against him are spurious or lies?

I go after Dean POLITICALLY with his own actions and words and my distrust of his brand of centrism. Just like people here go after the DLC for their brand of centrism.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

66. Let me be real.

I acknowledge that I abhor flamebait.

I acknowledge the fact that I cheer on those that bash flamebait.

I acknowledge that Kerry needs no defense, although he has a powerful warrior in you.

I acknowledge that the only real debatable points are those that are signed into legislation and/or voted on.

I acknowledge that if you can see the attacks on your candidate as spurious lies that others could see yours as the same.

I acknowledge that Kerry or Dean would be preferable to Bush. I also acknowledge that this is the primary season and we're all fighting hard for our candidate.

I acknowledge that once the primaries are over we'll overwhelmingly back the Democratic nomineee.

I acknowledge that what happens in DU has absolutely no effect on the outcome of the primary or general election.

I acknowledge that some of the funnest times at DU are the politically-charged mud fests.

I acknowledge that, despite our differences of opinion, I consider you a friend and a fellow world traveler.

RiF

[blm]

68. Fair enough.

but...I do not lie. ;)

[DrFunkenstein]

16. Dean Has Repeatedly Taken The Low Road Against His Opponents

I think it is time for the Democratic Party to stand up for what it believes in, and stop trying to be Bush Lite, because we are never going to beat Bush by being Bush Lite," Dean said.

---

MANCHESTER, N.H. - Front-running Democrat Howard Dean, letting loose after weeks of sniping by rival John F. Kerry, yesterday branded Kerry a budget-fudging Bush defender who epitomizes Beltway politics as usual.

`Sen. Kerry unfortunately is using the Bush figures to defend the Bush tax plan, I think that's a mistake on Sen. Kerry's part,'' Dean told reporters, saying most middle income earners got hundreds - not thousands - from the cuts.

Dean said Bush won't be beat by ``Bush Lite,'' another thinly veiled reference to Kerry's support for the tax cuts and the war in Iraq.

``The way you beat George Bush is not to try to be like him, vote for `no child left behind,' defend some of the Bush tax cuts and vote for the war,'' Dean said.


---

"I appreciate Sen. Kerry saying we don't need Bush Lite, and we don't," Dean told about 1,000 people attending a forum on rural issues in Lake Placid. "But, Sen. Kerry, we don't want Dean Lite, either."

[Hawkeye-X]

43. People. Please.

Dean was referring to the congresscritters (NOT just Kerry) who was towing the * line. That's why he was referring to people who are just *SLIGHTLY* to the left of Bush, but still quite right-wing.

Kerry, Lieberman, Gephardt, Edwards can be alluded as Bushlite.

But, Dean NEVER directly pointed to anyone that was being Bushlite. He was merely referring to those who vote the Resident's way.

Hawkeye-X

[DrFunkenstein]

50. How Did I Know Dean Supporters Would Ignore Hard Quotes?

That is some of the most tortured spin I've heard in a long time.

[Hawkeye-X]

55. Hard quote?

Show me the quote again. I'd like to see it again.

And we'll read it together. Very carefully.

Hawkeye-X

[kwolf68]

89. They are professionals at it

Dean people are like kids at a rock concert with a band that sucks. As long as the music is turned up loud enough maybe no one will notice the band can't play.

[PAMod]

6. If Gep wasn't linking Dean to Gingrich, why even mention Gingrich by name?

By saying Gingrich's name he was attempting to equate Dean with Gingrich, which is about as bad a thing as one Democrat can say about another.

Shame on Gephardt, and shame on Kerry for defending (?) Gep.

Dean is trying to win an election, folks. Remember how that works? - talk issues, explain your vision, rally the base, etc.

It seems that Kerry, Gephardt, Lieberman & Kucinich are merely trying to beat down Dean.

[blm]

7. Yet none of you thought sfecap's post was out of line.

sfecap  (1000+ posts) Fri Sep-26-03 01:04 AM
Original message
John Kerry Should Heed His Own Advice
John Kerry Should Heed His Own Advice
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
September 25, 2003
At virtually the same time John Kerry sent out a fundraising email to supporters vowing to fight back against the politics of personal destruction, he failed to take his own high-minded advice. At the moment in the debate when Kerry had a chance to take the high road and join with Sen. Edwards in calling for the candidates to focus on their own plans and visions and not criticize each other, Sen. Kerry instead joined Dick Gephardt and resorted to the politics of the past by seconding the ridiculous comparison of Gov. Dean to Newt Gingrich.
Despite stating in his email, "I have taken the high road in this campaign," John Kerry continues to distort Gov. Dean's record and attack him at every turn.
John Kerry will soon learn that he is right that these tactics turn good people away from the process. That is why more than 425,000 people have joined Gov. Dean's call for a new people-powered politics based on participation and hope, rather than based on the politics of the past and fear.
John Kerry should heed his own call.
www.deanforamerica.com

The attacks come from the Deanut Gallery and you all chime in appropriatelly, then WHINE about attacks when someone else calls you on the hypocrisy.

[w4rma]

10. Pot meet kettle. blm, you are THE current most negative poster on DU, IMHO

Perhaps you should look at the Kerry zealots for the origin of most negative attacks on DU?

[blm]

14. Go look up the threads I start, and compare them with those

YOU cheerlead for regularly.

You turned negative when you felt overwhelmed with the Clark defense force added to the previous Dean critics and decided to let it rip. Well, that's how I came about defending Kerry from the onslaught of Deanies, some of whom were so vicious they were tombstioned. You excuse yourself without acknowledging that others could have felt the same way after constant negative assaults on THEIR candidate?

[w4rma]

18. PLEASE, compare my threads with yours. PLEASE.

And if you are going to accuse me of things, you need to back yourself up with some proof. Show me where I did anything like what you say.

[AWD]

22. Don't argue with the broken record.....

....until John-John Jr. gives him a new plan (HA! Oh, the mere thought of a plan....), he'll just spout the same hate.

[blm]

25. I said the ones you cheerlead for

of the Deanies who attack other candidates. You don't find all their threads negative while I start damn few threads about Dean, and in fact, this is probably only my second thread started about Dean in months. And its purpose was to show the hypocrisy.

[w4rma]

28. link? proof? back up your words. (n/t)

[blm]

30. You accused me of being the most negative poster on the board.

You started it, YOU prove it. I was defending myself.

[w4rma]

35. proof

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=39505#44159
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=44238#44380
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=44346#44489
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=44634#44640
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=45680#45832
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=46097#46215
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=47123#47130
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=47294#47489
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=47415#47541
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=47598#47674
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=45218#47021
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=48504#48511
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=48714

That's a quick search of *only* the Politics and Campaigns forum *only* going back *1* week.

[blm]

59. I didn't start those threads and

I never go outside the political arena.

[AWD]

64. But mooooooooommmmmmmmmmmyyyyyyyyy

I didn't start it!!!!!

You asked for proof of being negative. There it is!

[w4rma]

65. Never say never. Also, you started this thread.

Which was one of the threads I listed.

As for not going outside of the Politics and Campaigns forum (as if that were a decent excuse, at all):

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=396545#403212
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=406186#407984
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=405412#405530
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=404986#405393
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=388163#389640
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=394811#398107

This is a *1* week search of *only* General Discussion.

[blm]

72. "political arena"

GD is part of the political arena, but, the "political arena" I refer to is Dean's political arena and his words and activities in that world. I don't take the potshots like many here do on his personal life, his looks, or his family. Fairness in the political arena.

The speculation that his brother was CIA when killed was also something that Dean has acknowledged in the past that could be true, but he said he doesn't know for sure.

[AWD]

46. here

Here you go...TONS of negativity and whining from blm. Heck, he even claims at one point that "Kerry is not a mudslinger".

Here's the negative stuff from just the last week...there's more of this....as far as the myopic eye can see.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=44634#44640

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=43049#43204

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=42685#43085


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=42685#43671

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=42685#43080

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=42271#42322

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=40579#40604


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=39540#39571

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=39540#40503

[w4rma]

53. woah, you only duplicated *one* of the examples I posted in post #35 (n/t)

[AWD]

56. Yeah, and we both found

aton of negativity too....funny how there's no response yet.

[clar]

38. I hate, hate, hate

defending blm because I think her dislike/hatred of Dean is over the top, but she is not, by any measure, the most negative poster on DU.
In fact, lately she's been pretty restrained, particularly when it comes to starting threads.

[w4rma]

See post #35

Note, I agree that blm *is* pretty restrained on *starting* threads.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

82. I believe that it is a very important distinction

whether the thread was started or just responded to. If you start a negative thread, you deserve what you get. If you respond to a negative thread you're doling out a comeuppance. I cut blm some slack because she rarely ever starts that crap.

:shrug: RiF's Flamebait Morality Theorum.

[AWD]

17. Once again...

....following the "What Did Dean Do First" theory, eh blm???

[DrFunkenstein]

9. Maybe Because He Led The Effort?

Just a thought.

[w4rma]

11. with DrFunkenstein a close second (n/t)

[DrFunkenstein]

19. If You Are Going To Mention Me By Name

Have a point, or at least a sense of humor.

[unfrigginreal]

23. Lighten up Doc....

wr4ma definitely had a point and certainly showed some humor in that post.

[AWD]

20. No, I hereby remove DrF...

....from contention for 'most negative'.

DrF has numerous funny threads and has a good light-hearted spirit to it all. he will cheer for any candidate, depsite having a favorite.

[PAMod]

27. C'mon Doc - every Democrat knows Gingrich was the Devil

You put someone's name next to his - you might as well have a doctored (no pun intended) photograph with Dean and Newt arm-in-arm.

It's no better than saying Sen. Kerry looks French or calling Dean "Nikita".

[babzilla]

41. hell, you might as well dr. a picture to show Dean & Sharon together

oh wait, someone already did that didn't they Dr.?

[DrFunkenstein]

48. I Didn't Force Him To Take That Trip

If you don't find it a legitimate concern that Dean took a trip paid for by a hawkish Israeli lobby, made lavish promises to hawkish Israeli leaders, met with NO Palestinian leaders, then came back saying they need a separation wall - then I guess were going to have to disagree.

Edward Said's recent death only reinforces in me the need for the parallel concessions that he fought so passionately for - the very same plan Kerry has proposed. I don't buy Dean's triangulating talk for a second - he still favors unilateral concessions towards a demilitarized Palestinian state separated by a wall that is nothing more than a blatant land grab.

[babzilla]

63. the way I heard it from the real triangulator's

was that Dean was too "even-handed".
Why didn't Gary "Dean-asked-me-what-should-I-do" Hart, warn him about not meeting with Palestinian leaders?

When was the last time Kerry went to the Middle-East to meet with Palestinian leaders? When was the last time Kerry voted to appropriate money to Isreal?

Do you have a photo with Kerry imposed in front of Abbas handy?

[DrFunkenstein]

71. As A Matter of Fact, I Do

But they are naked, so I can't post it. You'll have to settle for this:

"Without demanding unilateral concessions, the United States must mediate a series of confidence building steps which start down the road to peace.

Both parties must walk this path together - simultaneously. And the world can help them do it.

While maintaining our long term commitment to Israel's existence and security, the United States must work to keep both sides focused on the end game of peace.

Extremists must not be allowed to control this process."

How's that? Although favoring Israel, it is a true example of honest brokering. Kerry has said that he will not give Palestinians something for nothing, particularly Hamas - but that such extremists cannot determine the road to a stable Middle East.

[babzilla]

77. how's that you ask?

It sounds like Kerry has (deep breath now): "the courage to do what's right for america".
Didn't he have an editor look at his campaign motto? A little wordy for my taste.

Both parties must walk this path together - simultaneously. And the world can help them do it.

That sounds like the long-winded way to say we should be even-handed.

I am still not convinced that you didn't force Dean to take that trip to Isreal. ;)

[Andromeda]

81. Damn it!

I was mad at you and you made me laugh!

But they are naked, so I can't post it. You'll have to settle for this:

[DrFunkenstein]

42. I Realize You'll Never Agree With Me, But

I thought that Kerry was articulating the context of Dean's quotes, because they weren't just some random words that look bad. They were made during a blistering Congressional battle with a radical faction of the GOP trying to impose a false mandate.

The Gingrich Revolution was not any easy time for Democrats, many of whom are now considered "Bush-lite," as they tried to defend some of the most positive - if flawed - programs of the time. Having centrist Democrats make a point of crossing sides during that battle others similar did not help matters any.

Part of what makes a candidate is the battles he/she chooses and how those battles are fought.

[PAMod]

57. I agree with much of what you post, actually

Gep would have looked better if he had kept Gingrich's dirty name out of a Democratic debate. Kerry would look better if he could ever avoid an opportunity to kick Dr. Dean.

[DrFunkenstein]

70. Personally I Think Gep Sank Himself With The Attacks

They seemed to smell a little desperate. I think the debates really separated the wheat and the chaff (no offense to the chaff!). The only real question is perhaps Edwards, who still has an outside shot. Other than that it's clearly a 3 man race.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

69. Do you think that possibly, just possibly, Kerry would

have a self-interest in articulating the context of Dean's words?

I didn't think so.

[unfrigginreal]

73. I'm a big fan of Kerry's nuances...although most of the country won't be!

Why doesn't Kerry or Gephardt just come out with the specific quotes that would bury Dean? Could it be because they don't have them? Talk about windbags!

[DemBones DemBones]

21. Is this your first primary season? OF COURSE Kerry, Gephardt,

Lieberman & Kucinich are "trying to beat down Dean" -- like Dean, each of them is trying to win an election by talking issues, explaining his vision, expanding his base, and CRITICIZING HIS OPPONENTS.

If Dean's policies can be equated to Gingrich's policies, shame on Dean, and praise to the Democrats who are pointing out his wrong-headedness.

Sorry, but Dean can't get anyone to write him a letter to protect him from the criticism of other Dems, much less the criticism of the GOP if he manages to get the nomination.

[w4rma]

26. Rob Reiner's letter to Dean supporters.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=48504

[DemBones DemBones]

37. Reiner played a meathead on TV, now he's playing one in politics.

[dsc]

45. I supose this post will fall down some memory hole

the next time the Dean supporters are mean threads come up.

[flpoljunkie]

90. Is this "Meathead endorses Hothead"?

:kick:

[dsc]

36. any candidate's record can be compared to that of Ginrich

the question is can they honestly be compared to that of Ginrich? Gephardt is using cut quotes from places that we have to use lexis nexis to search so I can't even find many of them. But thanks to Liberal Oasis I know the Medicare ones are flat out lies. Dean was clearly referring not to the program but to its administration and in particular to its treatment of his dad. Gephardt knew that and chose to lie anyhow. Why on God's green earth should I lend any credence to his other quotes?

[DemBones DemBones]

61. Dean has told half-truths to protect himself and to smear others

and he has wavered and equivocated on positions. Why on God's green earth should I put any credence in him?

The man is not the dream candidate or paragon of virtue his supporters believe him to be. Howard Dean is basically a moderate Republican who strongly supports abortion, weakly opposed the war in Iraq, and was forced by a more liberal state supreme court to sign a bill legalizing civil unions for same sex couples, an autograph he's parlayed into being seen as a great supporter of rights for gays and lesbians. I don't believe a Dean presidency would be good for any of us.

If he managed to be elected, I think Dean would continue a lot of the mistaken foreign policies of the Bush* administration, continue to favor business interests over people, continue to allow most of the Patriot Act to stand, fail to significantly help the many Americans without medical insurance, allow the "War on Some Drugs" to continue imprisoning Americans for smoking marijuana, allow US-based corporations to continue cutting jobs in the US, hiring workers in cheap labor countries, and taking advantage of offshore tax shelters. Based on his Vermont record, I think he would set aside more land for national parks and preserves, but not do enough to reverse decisions that have allowed declines in other environmental quality measures like air and water quality.

We need to elect someone who will really make a change in the areas that need changing. Aside from Lieberman, Dean is the most likely of the candidates to stick with the status quo.

[PAMod]

39. No, I've lived (and died) through a few...

and of course you are right.

This discussion is pretty silly, actually.

I have never liked the inter-party attacks, though, since they tend to backfire against the nominee later on.

Hey DBDB, at least by comparing Dean to Gingrich, Gep and Kerry aren't giving the Repubes anything they can use in November '04!

[DemBones DemBones]

67. LOL, you're right, Rove's not gonna have his boy use Gingrich as

a standard of bad policy!

I'm sorry I shouted at you. :waves white flag: Thanks for being understanding.

[blm]

49. Now compare the vitriol level on the Kerry thread that this one mimics.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=47982&mesg_id=47982

Which camp denigrates others the most?

[Padraig18]

54. The sophistry in this entire thread would put JESUITS to shame!

And the same pertains to the Kerry thread! :grr: These two topics have to rank right up there with the "Kucinich helped goad us into the Iraq invasion" for sheer pettiness and lunacy!

What room were the ADULTS in, again? :eyes:

[Upfront]

76. Yawn

:crazy:

[LiberalTexan]

78. Thanks for posting these articles

Dean is right and I'm glad he stood up and said something about Kerry supporting the Bush tax cuts and not planning to roll them back. I just learned Kerry wouldn't repeal the tax cuts that are hurting us so badly. I went to Kerry's website last week to read it myself. I was AGHAST. I can now swallow the fact that he is defending the pResident and his own vote to allow Bush to go into Iraq (though it's the main reason I don't support Kerry), but the TAX CUT? Where is he going with this? I thought every THINKING Democrat would agree that we need to do something about these sky high tax cuts for Bush's friends.

Something stinks at Senator Kerry's desk.

[blm]

79. What are you talking about?

He's rolling back the tax cuts for the wealthy and keeping in place the taxcuts for the working class that the Dems have always worked for. Instead of the working class giving back their tax cuts, Kerry's plan calls for closing corporate loopholes to make them pay their fair share and close the gap.

How can you claim to have read Kerry's plan and come to that conclusion?

BTW...Kerry and the other Dem candidates did NOT vote for Bush's tax cut.

They voted for the parts of the bill that gave taxcuts to the working class to make sure it stayed in the bill. But voted NO on the overall taxcut bill itself.

[MercutioATC]

80. Y-friggin'-AWN.....

I love it when somebody takes an ambiguous statement (Bush-lite) that was never directed at a particular candidate and insists that it's a personal attack and then asserts that citing an 8-year-old, out-of-context quote is fair play.

Ain't double standards grand?

[polpilot]

83. Howard Dean wins & the Old Time Senate Club (Kerry/Gephardt) go

back home with nothing except a lesson they can't seem to learn: Misrepresent Dean as opposed to better health care for America and Dean wins and you lose. Got it??

Dean '04...The New Democratic Leader of The NEW Democratic Party

[JohnKleeb]

84. Wouldnt you have to be a senator to be part of that

Gephardt is a congressman not a senator plus imho and you all can flame me all you want but I think hes better than a lot give him credit for. Now hes not my candiate but I do admire him for his work with the unions.

[polpilot]

85. Gephardt's support of unions is admirable and with help we'd not have

the nightmare that NAFTA/WTO has created for working families in America. It is untrue that Dean is opposed to providing medical care for all Americans and for Gephardt to use a '93 comment about medicare's flaws was a blatant attempt to mischaracterize Dean's focus on providing care to Americans. If there is one thing evident about Dean it is that he's not a 'money chaser' and is in opposition to the sainted AMA.

Dean '04 The ew Democratic Leader of The New Democratic Party.

[JohnKleeb]

88. did I claim that was Gep said about Dean was true

Well if you dont like NAFTA/WTO wouldnt DK be your guy :)? Look I am not trying to start anything.

[DemDogs]

91. Maybe this should be its own thread

but I was concerned when Dean responded to Kerry, I think, saying that getting rid of the middle class tax cut was wrong. Dean said something about all these Washington politicians who voted FOR the tax cut. Who is he talking about? I don't think any of them voted for the tax cut either time. Maybe Dean misunderstood Gephardt to say that he was "like" Gingrich instead of that he agreed with Gingrich, but what's the excuse when it comes to this statement? It appears that Dean wants the listeners to think that the sitting Senators and Congressmen voted for the tax cut, which he knows (or should know) is untrue.
I am not for Kerry, but I thought that the way he did the disagreement on middle class tax cuts was the right way: it wasn't an attack, it was a difference between the candidates and it was not delivered in a provocative way. And, above all, it was true, which was not the case for Dean's response.

[Nicholas_J]

92. Did ANYONE else notice..

THe change in Deans figures for WHAT THEY DID IN VERMONT FOR HEALTH CARE" while he was governor. At the PACE UNIVERSITY debates, the figures for percent over Federal Poverty Level for to get Medicaid suddenly changed. Dean has been touting the figure "EVERYON BELOW 185 percent of federal poverty level is elegible". This thursday the figres dropped to 150 percent. Why you may asked. It is because nothing special was done in Vermont that differed in any way from any other statess medicaid eligibility. Dean passed or requested no legislation the effected the availability of health care in Vermont. All legislation passed ubder Dean was what is know as harmonizing legislation, that is passed whenever federal programs like medicaid are changed in Washington, the states must pass legislation to matc what federal laws required. I have been examining all the health care related legislation and ther history in Vermont, and ther are NO programs that are not tied and harmonized with federal law.

I would expenct that withing a few weeks, such info about Deans claims will start coming out of all of the other canpaigns.