Dean - living for the moment

[DemDogs]

His own statement of himself when he graduated from high school at the fancy St. George's School really was prescient. He said, "I can't see anything in perspective; I live only for the moment."

There are several parts of his own statement that supporters will like and several opponents will like, but it is fascinating. Given the latest confederate flag mistakes by Dean, I thought this was the most interesting, but I am sure others will offer other suggestions.

<http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/dean/deanarchives.html>

[La_Serpiente]

1. Oh my goodness

sorry, but that's a terrible picture of him.

[w4rma]

2. Statement From Governor Dean Regarding Kerry, Gephardt Tag Team Attacks

BURLINGTON--Last winter--to resounding applause and a standing ovation--Democratic presidential candidate Governor Howard Dean, M.D., told the DNC that "white folks in the South who drive pick-up trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back ought to be voting with us because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too."

In response to Congressman Gephardt's and Senator Kerry's most recent attacks, Governor Dean said:

"I want people with confederate flags on their trucks to put down those flags and vote Democratic--because the need for quality healthcare, jobs, and a good education knows no racial boundaries. We have working white families in the south voting for tax cuts for the richest 1% while their children remain with no health care. The dividing of working people by race has been a cornerstone of Republican politics for the last three decades--starting with Richard Nixon. For my fellow Democratic opponents to sink to this level is really tragic. The only way we're going to beat George Bush is if southern white working families and African American working families come together under the Democratic tent, as they did under FDR.

"In his historic 'I have a dream speech,' Martin Luther King, Jr., said: 'I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slaveowners will be able to sit down together at a table of brotherhood.' I believe Dr. King's vision still represents the future of America. And that is what our campaign is about."

UPDATE: Here is the full quote from the DNC speech referred to above:

"I want all of our institutions of higher learning, our law schools, our medical schools, our best universities to look like the rest of America. And I thought that one of the most despicable moments of this president's administration was three weeks ago, when on national prime-time television, he used the word "quota'' seven times. The University of Michigan does not now have quotas. It has never had quotas. Quotas is a race-loaded word, designed to appeal to people's fears of losing their jobs.

"I intend to talk about race in this election in the south because the Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us. And I'm going to bring us together, because you know what? White folks in the south who drive pickups trucks with confederate flags decals in the back ought to be voting with us and not them, because their kids don't have health insurance either and their kids need better schools too.

"We're not done yet.

"Most of you know that six months before my last re-election I signed a bill into law that made Vermont the first state in American to guarantee equal rights to every person under the law - EVERY person under the law. That bill was called the Civil Unions bill. And it said that marriage is between a man and a woman, but same-sex couples are entitled to the exact same legal rights as I have - hospital visitation, insurance, and inheritance rights. All Americans are equal under the law in our state.

"This bill was at about 40% in the polls when I signed it ? 60% were against it, six months before the election. I never got a chance to ask myself whether signing it was a good idea or not because I knew that if I were willing to sell out the rights of a whole group of human beings because it might be politically inconvenient for a future office I might run for, then I had wasted my time in public service."

You can also watch the full speech in the C-SPAN archive -- when it loads, fast-forward to 1:57:05 (this particular section begins at 2:06:56).

Posted by Mathew Gross at 04:57 PM
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/002081.html

From a post by LuminousX:

Link 1
"All right, the Confederate Flag may be an issue for you, but what about your childrens' health care? There's sixty thousand kids in South Carolina that don't have health insurance - and most of them are white. If you keep voting for the Republicans, they're never going to get health insurance for your kids, they're never going to help your schools, you're never going to get a better job, you're never going to get a raise. Come back to the Democratic Party - the party of Franklin Roosevelt where everybody was included!"

Link 2
"There's no reason why white guys who have a Confederate flag in the back of their pickup truck shouldn't be walking side-by-side with blacks, because they don't have health insurance, either," Dean said.

Link 3
"South Carolinians have voted Republican for 30 years," said Dean, who appeared on stage with no jacket and blue short-sleeve shirt. "Tell me what you have to show for it?"

"Nothing! Nothing!" several in the crowd shouted back.

"The Legislature cut $73 million out of the public school system. Jobs gone to other countries especially in textiles. People haven't had raises in five years because their health insurance premiums took their raise in pay," Dean said.

"If you're satisfied with that, you ought to vote for George Bush," he said. "But maybe you ought to vote Democratic again. Because when white people and black people and brown people vote together in this country, that's when we make social progress."

Link 4
During a frenetic day of events, Dean continued to portray himself as the insurgent candidate among a crowded field of political insiders, the one unafraid to take on controversial issues.

And in South Carolina, where the Confederate flag waves on the grounds of the State House, one of those issues was race.

“When we come to the South, Democrats have got to start talking about race because the Republicans always talk about race,” he said to the South Carolina Democratic Convention. “They talk about it to try to keep people from voting, they talk about it by using divisive words like quotas, which are race-based words. In the South, we have discovered that when white voters and black voters vote together, we all make progress.”

[SahaleArm]

3. Right on cue...

Damn you guys are quick.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

4. Yeah

we work in shifts. :)

[DannyRed]

5. Wow.

Keep hammering this.

Dean needs to keep hammering this.

This is some pretty refreshing rhetoric, and if it can escape the spin with the message intact, it is a winning stand.

[DemDogs]

6. And we get hammered

when he says he wants to be the candidate of the the voters with confederate flags on their pickup trucks. (The conveniently omitted quotation.) If he understood the issue, instead of mouthing the words, this is not a mistake he would make. But, as he said, as this thread was about: "I can't see anything in perspective; I live only for the moment."

[LuminousX]

17. Is it against the law to have the confederate flag on your vehicle?

Is congress currently seeking legislation to make it against the law?

How many candidates respected the NAACP boycott of South Carolina and have not spent money there?

Why shouldn't Dean want there votes? Just because you assume every person with the confederate flag on their vehicle, in their homes, etc. is a racist who doesn't deserve healthcare, good jobs, etc. doesn't mean that is truly the case.

Far better to make them realize life is better under Democratic rule and then allow us to educate them on why the confederate flag is wrong.

[SahaleArm]

7. Republican Zell Miller on Dean (MTP).

http://www.msnbc.com/news/969743.asp

MR. RUSSERT: Let me show you what Howard Dean said yesterday, and get your reaction. “I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks...We can’t beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats.” Is he making sense with that statement?

SEN. MILLER: "Howard Dean knows about as much about the South as a hog knows about Sunday. This must be his Southern strategy. And I can tell you right now, that that’s the same kind of stereotype, that’s the same kind of character trait that I write about in this book. I write about in this book in 1988 Michael Dukakis coming to Georgia and having this rally, and they had all these bales of hay stashed around here and there, like it was some kind of set from the television show “Hee Haw.” That’s not what the South is. The South right now, if you took its economy, it would be the third largest in the world, next to the United States as a whole and next to Japan. Fifty-five hundred African-Americans right now hold office in the South. In Georgia we have several statewide elected officials who are African-American and who were elected last year in a race where a senator and a governor were being defeated. They were being elected in a state that’s 70 percent white. This is not the South that Howard Dean thinks it is. Sure, we drive pickups, but on the back of those pickups, you see a lot of American flags. It’s the most patriotic region in the country. And you see hardworking individuals that want to instill values in their children, and you see a very, very strong work ethic in the South. He doesn’t understand the South."

...

MR. RUSSERT: Do you think the Confederate flag should be flown in public places?

SEN. MILLER: Maybe at a museum or somewhere like that. I think you may know—it’s in the book— that whenever I was governor, early on I tried to remove the Confederate emblem from the flag in Georgia.

[DannyRed]

8. I lived in Durham

North Carolina for 8 years, doing political work.

Dean is right, Zell Miller is an ass.

There is and continues to be a large population of mainly poor and white southerners who often DO tote the confederate flag on their vehicles...and DO vote GOP, in direct opposition to their economic interests.

They often oppose unionization...if the unions are integrated.

They are an important demographic...

And, if you would be willing to pay attention, you would see and hear that quote entirely differently from the way the media whores and the opposing political camps are trying to spin it.

[SahaleArm]

9. Do you think there's any chance that...

they'll vote Democrat? They've been poor and continue to vote against their own interests in name of the confederate flag. Is this population large enough to warrant Dean's statement or is he just playing into a certain southern stereotype, as Zell asserts?

[DannyRed]

11. Actually,

Yes.

They have consistently voted republican for many years for a number of reasons...

Cultural, Symbological, Social, Racial, and etc.

One of those reasons is the perceived elitism and contempt that many of those southern whites feel that northern liberals have for them...contempt that is expressed in terms of gun control, religious issues, race issues, and etc.

The ONE thing that Dems have on GOPs is the economic wedge...

With the neutralization of guns (Dean and Clark stances), and the proper push showing that economic issues are more relevant (especially now)...and with the blatantly obvious fact that the GOP has been and continues to betray the military (another huge issue for these folks)....I think that they could be won over.

Don't forget, a lot of these people voted FOR John Edwards, and voted FOR Mike Easley and voted FOR Zell Miller....and AGAINST people like Faircloth and etc.

They are winnable, if it is framed right, pushed right, and couched right.

[SahaleArm]

13. I have minimal knowledge of Southern politics but...

I'd like to see a breakdown of how many confederate flag waver's are Democrat or would vote Democrat. The question should be how did Max Cleland or Zell Miller get elected? What were the voter demographics? Did they need any votes from the confederate flag crowd?

[a_lil_wall_fly]

58. Bravo

DannyRed,

They have voted for Edwards and most likely we will see if this subject will help or harm Gov Dean in the South.


"They are winnable, if it is framed right, pushed right, and couched right."
Point Blank
End Of Statement
The End

Dean and his statement to my opinion is not the way to get Southern Voters to Vote
:dem:

[LuminousX]

16. Do we not try?

[paulk]

22. of course we try...

But we don't invoke racially divisive symbols like the Confederate flag in the effort. That, to me, is the whole point of this flag flap.
Dean is correct, the Democratic party needs to make an appeal to voters whose natural party would be ours if they voted for only economic reasons, however, you can't do it by risking the alienation of a far more valuable demographic - the minority vote.

[LuminousX]

23. Invocation of Symbols

He used the flag as a why of identifying a market segment. He didn't glorify the flag, he didn't say it was a good thing to fly it. He has said in the past it is a state issue and that is how it is best dealt with so as not to lead to charges of suppression of first amendment rights.

[lastliberalintexas]

47. Stop that!

You're making too much sense.

"He used the flag as a why of identifying a market segment. He didn't glorify the flag, he didn't say it was a good thing to fly it."

Yes, but someone would actually have to READ his remarks to see that. It's so much easier to just criticize him because he's Dean.


And by the way, he's also on record as opposing the STATE flying or using the flag or symbol. Beyond that, if flown by an individual, it is a protected form of speech. Just as it is for me to fly the US flag upside down.

Now, I didn't comment on whether it was good to fly the confederate flag, just that it was protected speech. But that is how I'll be criticized I'm sure. And reading comprehension levels in this country continue to decline.

[paulk]

52. Symbols are powerful things

The Confederate flag is the single most culturally divisive symbol in American history, especially in the south, especially among minorities. What does it stand for? Slavery. Racism. Intolerance. Oppression.

Using the Confederate flag as a way of identifying a market segment?
Are you serious?

Yes, Howard Dean said it was a states issue, when asked about the Condederate flag atop the S. Carolina State building. Bill Bradley, Al Gore, and John McCain all demanded that flag come down. One other candidate said it was a states right. One other candidate agreed with Howard Dean's position. Who? George W. Bush.

and don't give me that crap about first amendment suppression.
That dog won't hunt.

How could any reasonable person defend Howard Dean's remarks? He stuck his foot in his mouth. It happens. He needs to apoligize and move on. And his supporters on this board need to stop twisting themselves into pretzels defending the indefensible.

[a_lil_wall_fly]

59. Yeah

As well you would think that with a good lead in $$$$, Dean would have a good proof-reader that would have caught that statement as an idealogical gernade.

:think: before you speak is something that I was told as a child. Or you might regret that statement down the road. LOL

[DannyRed]

10. Read this analysis

From Jack Balkin, Yale Professor of law.

http://balkin.blogspot.com/

Howard Dean is getting lambasted for remarks he's made about gun control and the Confederate flag recently. On Saturday he said that he wanted to be "the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks."

But to me, at least, an earlier Dean remark is much more important. Speaking in South Carolina on February 13, Dean remarked: "There's no reason why white guys who have a Confederate flag in the back of their pickup truck shouldn't be walking side-by-side with blacks, because they don't have health insurance, either."

For some time now, the Republican Party has successfully taken a two-track approach to cultural and economic politics, pushing populist appeals on social issues while promoting economic policies that benefit largely the well-to-do, defending the latter on the grounds that a rising tide will lift all boats. <snip> Nevertheless, the accusation of cultural elitism has been extremely valuable for the Republican Party's electoral chances. Perhaps in the long run the Democrats may win the fight over values, but in the short run they will lose a lot of elections.

Dean's statement about forming a coalition of whites and blacks who have similar interests in health care, reflects, I think, a perfectly sensible approach. <snip>

[SahaleArm]

12. If it were that simple...

the subset of people Dean refers to would have left the GOP long ago. These folks are old south, segragationists to the core; Strom Thurmond Dixiecrats (against abortion, gays, and affirmative action). Economically speaking they should be Democrat, socially speaking they are not and never will be. I just don't see them voting with their pocket book.

[Nazgul35]

20. yeah...you right...I see the light!

let's screw the Catholics too cause they're pro-life!!! All of them, everyone....

screw the jews too cause they are pro-Israel, and Israel is causing all our terror problems....yeah...hell yeah!!!!!

Screw everybody, cause everybody wants something from the government...yeah!!!!

WHo are we left with again?

It's funny that so many people go to the defense of the so called middle class tax cut....and when a Dem comes out with an appeal of inclusion towards the poor...then screw them!!!!

I wonder why poor whites in the South think northern Dems are elitist and out to screw them over.....wouldn't know it from the retoric.....

[LuminousX]

21. So much for promoting an inclusive party

We now have a litmus test to be a member, and if you don't pass it, we don't even want your vote.

[SahaleArm]

43. Democrats don't promote an anti-abortion platform...

to get Catholic votes. Address the issue as to why Democrat's need to invoke the confederate flag to get a subsection of votes? You can still get the votes by promoting Democratic values, including civil-rights. If civil-rights, Healthcare, Education, etc. are not good enough then so be it.

[cindyw]

51. Ditto on the gun safety thing. Gun safety is not a southern/northern

thing. It's a moms vs.the world thing. This democratic mom will defect if we are going to forget who we are to win. Dean's best argument was that we have to go back to our roots, but more and more we are asked to forget the best of our party for his revolution I suppose. I say, no.

[MercutioATC]

66. No, but we don't say "Screw the Catholics" either.

We promote the message that we all have the same needs and should be working together regardless of our religion or the color of our skin. That's exactly what Dean did. He did NOT "promote a platform". He said that those who display the Confederate flag and southern blacks should be working together because, despite their differences, their common needs are more important.

People keep saying that Dean is "promoting" racism and "pandering to" southern Confederates. When did he say ONE thing positive about displaying the Confederate flag? He simply used two groups that are traditionally seen to be at odds with each other to illustrate that regardless of our differences, our similarities are more important.

How this is viewed as anything other than a message of inclusion is beyond me.

[SahaleArm]

67. To quote Howard Dean

"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks," the former Vermont governor was quoted as saying in Saturday's Des Moines Register.

http://www.azdailysun.com/non_sec/nav_includes/story.cfm?storyID=76120

We should neither ignore their needs nor should we promote their cause. Substitute 'Confederate' with 'American' and Dean could still have made his point.

[MercutioATC]

69. I don't think substituting "Confederate" with "American" makes the point.

I think it's obvious that Dean chose "Confederate" carefully. Had he used "American flag", it wouldn't have had any meaning at all. After all, how do you illustrate the importance of overcoming our differences to work together using people who display American flags and southern blacks as your two groups?

[AP]

25. This is the first time I've seen anyone say, "ingnore the LAST thing Dean

said." Usually we're told to ignore the things he said prior to 2002 and only believe the last thing he said.

[LuminousX]

30. You are being asked to read the LAST statement

as part of the whole.

Of course, only a person who seriously wants to consider a candidate looks at the candidate's whole position. Everyone else prefers to cherry-pick their soundbites to paint the worst picture possible.

[AP]

32. The whole that it's a part of, to me is:

-class, not race, should be measure for AA
-I'm the only Democrat to talk bluntly about race
-my blunt talk about race is actually an allegory about anti-male geneder discrimination
-caring about high black incarceratioin rates is "weepy and liberal" -- drug treatment programs can solve that problem

[LuminousX]

40. Cherry Picking - It's not just a hobby, it can be a career

[AP]

42. I've just cited everything I've heard COME OUT DEAN'S MOUTH about race

I know Trippi has written up a lot of shit that's posted at the web site. However, I've listed everything Dean has actually SAID.

It's amazing how the Dean supporter's favorite argument is, "ignore what he said...I know his character, and it's not in his character."

Talk about 'cherry picking'!

[LuminousX]

45. But you didn't list EVERYTHING he's said

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=74329&mesg_id=74577

Which means you are being selective.

[AP]

46. Actually, I've listed everything I've heard him say in two major speeches

Bryant Park, and his conference call, and in a speech at Howard University (which should get particular weight), and I've listed every signigicant race-related issue that has come up since those things.

I think it's a very fair summation of where Dean's at.

[Andromeda]

60. Dean supporters aren't ignoring...

what Dean says, they are putting what he says in context. You pick and choose selective quotes from Dean to support your point of view and that's not a fair representation of Dean's platform.

Try reading everything he says and put it in perspective instead of twisting what he says.

Dean is the most honest of all the candidates and he says what's on his mind. That's what gets him into trouble sometimes. He is the insurgent outsider who doesn't try to win people over with flowery rhetoric. I find the fact that he shoots from the hip refreshing because for so long Democratic leaders were too timid to speak up.

The other Democrats who capitulated to Bush after the 2000 election alienated Democratic party members who were angry over the Bush selection---and they're still angry.

Dean speaks for the disenfranchised, the working middle class, the elderly and college-age activists. He speaks to that anger when none of the other candidates effectively did.

[AP]

61. Exactly what I'm doing. Putting Dean's statements in the context of other

things Dean has said and done.

And the picture that is forming is that of a libertarian governor, probably farther to the right of any of the other candidates who has reinvented himself as a Democratic presidential candidate, but still isn't afraid to send out code language to libertarians to make sure they know he hasn't forgotten them.

[Andromeda]

57. Zell Miller is an asshole...

so Dean must be doing something right if Miller doesn't like him.

[LuminousX]

14. So what I said when I was 18 is going to be used against me in an election

How low are you going to stoop? I heard Dean once called a child, a CHILD, mind you, a 'fart knocker' when he was in second grade. Has this man no compassion?

[LuminousX]

15. "Forget about people you can't please..."

Reading this article does provide some great quotes.

"If you're the curious type who can put up with a temper, join the few who know me as I know me -- from the inside looking out."

"I take each individual thing that comes along as the most important..."

[NewYorkerfromMass]

18. So he admits he's stupid.

...won-der-ful. :eyes:

[Rose Siding]

26. So he admits to having been 18

...excellent :crazy:

[DrFunkenstein]

19. Sorry, I Just Had To Post This

<>

He describes himself as a "frequent occupant of the weight room!"

[AP]

24. For the moment, he's a liberal democrat. when he was GOV of VT, he was

a libertarian.

[Rose Siding]

27. "I am the center, Larry"

-Dean on Larry King '03

Maybe you can cite the "liberal democrat" and "libertarian" claims?

[AP]

28. Dean on Dean. Mid-'90s

"You folks at Cato," he told us, "should really like my views because I'm economically conservative and socially laissez-faire." Then he continued: "Believe me, I'm no big-government liberal. I believe in balanced budgets, markets, and deregulation. Look at my record in Vermont." He was scathing in his indictment of the "hyper-enthusiasm for taxes" among Democrats in Washington.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/073ylkiz.asp

[Rose Siding]

29. See.

He doesn't claimed to be a (big govt) liberal and examining his record in VT clearly demonstrates he's no Libertarian.

[AP]

31. He claims to be different people at different times. Living in the moment.

[Rose Siding]

33. As an 18 year old?

Sounds appropriate to me.

The contorting cracks me up. You can do it to anyone! -Santa Claus can be described as a poor physical role model who uses stealth tactics, has a poor labor record, assumes preferential treatment when flying and practices discrimination (between the naughty and the nice).

Knock yourself out.

[AP]

34. as a closet libertarian governor and as a Dem pres candidate.

[killbotfactory]

55. Darn that old closet libertarian poopy-pants Dean!

[AP]

62. Who's acting like a child?

[killbotfactory]

63. I don't know who's acting like one, but these attacks on Dean are pretty..

Childish.

[AP]

65. ...fair

We're talking about Dean. We're analyzing what he said. We're supporting our arguments with facts and logic.

You're the one who uses the phrase "poopy-pants" in your, uhm, "rebuttal."

Who's the one who's being childish?

[blm]

68. Deregulation of energy industry IS Libertarian.

And certainly a goal of the BFEE.

[KaraokeKarlton]

71. No he wasn't a libertarian

:eyes:

[AP]

73. What about his statement at the Cato Inst?

"You folks at Cato," he told us, "should really like my views because I'm economically conservative and socially laissez-faire." Then he continued: "Believe me, I'm no big-government liberal. I believe in balanced budgets, markets, and deregulation. Look at my record in Vermont." He was scathing in his indictment of the "hyper-enthusiasm for taxes" among Democrats in Washington.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/073ylkiz.asp

How do you explain his attitude toward gun control, abortion rights, energy deregulation, his refusal to make progressive taxation a focus, and some of the weird things he's said about race?

The all fit into one coherent political philosophy: libertarian. Even the libertarians here are starting to come out of the closet and say that this guy is their man.

[mzmolly]

35. That's alot better stuff then I wrote in my High School year book.

I wrote things like, "Hope to see ya at the parties..." "Stay cool man."

Oh my, Thanks for the insight into what I already knew about Howard Brush Dean *The thirrrd."

[AP]

38. At age 16, Bill Clinton was at Boy's Nation voting for civil rights...

...legislation. One of only three southerners to do so.

Mzmolly, when you're running for president, we'll look for clues to who you are in your biography.

[mzmolly]

36. Oh, and who the hell isn't "living in the moment" at 18?

You guys become funnier by the minute. Honestly, the stuff Dean 'controversy' is made of. LOL

[AP]

44. Clinton was living for and thinking about the future. Bush was in the...

...moment, however.

[lastliberalintexas]

48. Yes, at 16

Clinton thought like a 50 year old. Too bad at 50 he started acting like a 16 year old.

[AP]

49. Obviously, he was able to separate sex and politics.

[Mairead]

53. Poor kids, usually.

The only ones who can live in the moment are those with no worries about the future. Party party party!

[killbotfactory]

54. You grew up with different poor kids than I did.

much different.

[Mairead]

56. No doubt. I expect it's down to different definitions of 'poor'

[mzmolly]

64. I guess that would explain my additude growing up...

"PARTY, PARTY, PARTY"

Reminds me of the beastie boys song... "You gotta fight, for your right, to Paaaarrrttttyyy."

By the way, I met every definition of 'poor'.

However, living in the moment is pretty typical for most 18 year olds rich/poor alike. My husband and his friends were middle class to wealthy, and they had the same additude.

[Mairead]

70. I expect that's why the Army is full of poor kids like Lynch, then, right?

They know that Army life is just one big kegger, just like the lives the more fortunate kids are enjoying at university, right?

[KaraokeKarlton]

72. You must not know many poor 18 year olds

:eyes:

[Mairead]

74. Don't kid yourself

I knew about 350 of them, and was one myself. Having to live in a slum tenny on the dole was plenty poor enough. (Though of course your oh-so-wonderful 'centrists' in collaboration with the overt rightwingers have now made the plight of the poor even worse. I quite literally cannot imagine how I could possibly have survived to adulthood under today's vicious degradation)

[killbotfactory]

37. Dean used to wear a diaper and poop his pants!

Do we really want a former pants pooper for president?

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AWD]

41. Careful there...

....or you'll have endless thesis statements on how Dean would lay on his back and cry until an older woman was made to tend to his every need.

Hate plus jealousy makes for a sad, sad picture.

[mzmolly]

50. Im laughing outloud at that one...

Thanks ;)