Dean campaign ad criticizes Gephardt

[sandnsea]

"Democrat Howard Dean, in a close battle with Dick Gephardt in Iowa, launched a television commercial Monday that takes his rival to task for backing President Bush on the war against Iraq."

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2003/11/17/national1205EST0560.DTL

First he bashes the Democratic Party at the unifying JJ Dinner and calls them a bunch of Republicans, now this. Is Dean losing you?

[chimpymustgo]

1. He lost me at "hello".

How anyone could support Dean to lead the Dems onto the Titanic after the JJ dinner horrow show is beyond me.

[Kahuna]

7. I didn't watch the JJ diner because...

Dean makes me sick. Was he really that bad? }(

[Norcom]

31. JJ Dinner

i did not see the dinner and I really have not read or seen any news on it. What happened and what did Dean do?

[DemDogs]

50. Dean looked maniacal

He was more like a TV evangelist on speed than like a serious candidate for President of the most powerful country in the world. He can give a good speech, but this was really over the top and I am troubled that he thought this might ever be an appropriate speech. If you want to see why swing voters will NEVER vote for Dean, watch this speech.

At the end of the speech he did a "You've got the power" line and then he spun and said it again. Now maybe three time might have been okay but he kept doing it, getting red in the face, pulling his face into that tight angry expression. It was really horrible.

To be honest, if you are a true believer, I can see how you could argue it was powerful. But what anyone who cares about beating Bush in 2004 has got to see is how those people who haven't had the Kool-aid will look at this performance. And how that image of Dean will frighten them. About his steadiness. About his judgment. About excess.

[drfemoe]

54. I think you are thinking of

Kucinich .. he was the one doing a rant.

[redqueen]

55. I heard or read he got a standing ovation for his rant.

Did Dean?

I heard or read (can't remember) nobody else did at all that night, including Saint Hillary of the infinite support herself. :)

[CMT]

2. good

he needs to answer Gep's negative ads against Dean.

[DemDogs]

51. Which ads of Gephardt's attacked Dean?

I hadn't seen those. Can you give us a link?

[9119495]

58. No link, beacuse they are mostly mailings and Gep has a $ prob

My adds have said things like "Gov. Dean wanted to destroy medicare," loved NAFTA and always will, etc. You'll have to take my word on it. I forwarded them to the Dean campaign.

[Cocoa]

61. I don't believe it

Someone here once claimed, with no substantiation, that the alleged gay bashing incident was on tape. This claim about the mailings sounds just as doubtful, especially with no link.

Here's an article about the mailings in Iowa, they mention a Dean one that features the famous photo of Gep in the Rose Garden.

But when it talks about the Gep mailings, it says they are attacks on Bush, doesn't say anything about attacks on Dean.

http://www.nhpr.org/blogs/penpals2004/archives/000064.php

[9119495]

71. A mailing wouldn't have a link...Are youfrom the future?

Trust me please. The mailing was the following:

Page one:

A letter on Gephardt campaign letterhead from Gephardt AFL-CIO director. It stated that Governor Dean had given wholehearted support to NAFTA in the past and that he will do nothing to prevent the loss of jobs. Dean, according to the letter would not roll-back NAFTA. Dean is on record as saying he would modify NAFTA for environmental and labor standards, and wipe out the gains made by companies moving overseas. Thus, the letter is a smear and its false (flat-out false as Dean might say)

Page two:

Also on Gephardt letter head, a big five column chart showing Gep's labor position compared to Dean, Kerry, and Edwards. While it acknowledges some of the candidates are pro-labor some of the time, all of them fall short of Gep's support.

It was insulting how he chose so few labor issues to include in his chart.

Page three:

A letter from then governor Dean to Bill Clinton in 1993 urging the passing of NAFTA. As Governor, NAFTA was sure to help Vermont with its ag. exports and he urged passage. He changed his mind after seeing the problems of NAFTA. JUST AS GEPHARDT HAS CHANGED HIS POSITION OVER TIME ON AN ISSUE SUCH AS, SAY, CIVIL UNIONS.

Hope this helps you see that it is not only Dean who is taking on other Democrats.

[Larkspur]

3. No, he's getting me more excited

I'm energized not only to help Dean win, but want to help him blowout his rivals.

When Dean slams the Dem Party leaders, he speaks for me. Our Vichy Dem leaders need a swift boot in their behinds as well as Bush.

[blm]

10. So does Bush.

.

[Larkspur]

25. I said that

.

[nocreativename]

26. Dean's statements are the reason

I left the green party. Go Dean

and as I said many times If it's Clark I'm back to the green party. I say this becuase, I think the Kosavo (sp) war thing was the saddest time on the Big Dog's stay in the oval office.

[redqueen]

28. um, what?!

You were Green, but now support someone who is fine with the death penalty, thinks staying in Iraq for years is a fait accompli, and who thinks cutting social programs so you can reduce taxes is good policy?

And if you thought Kosovo was bad, how could you possibly tolerate Dean's 30 to 60-day window before sanctioning an illegal, unjustified war?

[SahaleArm]

43. No, not the truth.

[polpilot]

27. The New Democratic Leader of The NEW Democratic Party speaks

for all democrats when booting the Bush enabling cockroaches. And exactly who these cockroaches are is well known.

Dean '04

[mitchum]

35. Maybe he speaks for you NEW Democrats (hmmm)...

but he doesn't speak for this Democrat

[DemDogs]

52. "Vichy Dem leaders?" Beware of Dean people

This is exactly what is wrong with you all.
The people here believe in the Democratic party. We know that the Democratic leaders have fought for our ideals. They fought Gingrich when Dean said he agreed with them. They fought against environmental racism when Dean was signing agreements to send nuclear waste to the Hispanic ghettos of southern Texas. You all need to get off your nasty high horses and recognize that your guy has been one of the most "accommodating" of all Democrats.

Your post really made me mad. What that translated into, you all don't seem to realize, is being mad at your candidate for inciting or permitting this kind of party-destructive thought. Here's my words to you: get out of the party if you don't like the people in it. No loss in my mind.

[redqueen]

56. You actually clarified something for me.

I've never been one to hold back from criticizing Dems when they go against their constituents or so called 'Democratic ideals', but for Dean to do so is less a critique than an insult, because it comes from someone who has proven his own willingness to capitulate to the right.

I understand the need for a balanced budget, but to do it while cutting taxes for the well off to me seems like nothing but pandering. It's tantamount to putting the onus of the burden of balancing the budget on those who can tolerate the burden the least. I can see why Dean's years in charge resulted in more and more people moving to the Progressive Party.

[9119495]

59. You all?? Don't lump all Dean supporters together, Demdogs.

Yeah that post was over the top. You're right, Dems have fought for us, but I don't think they did a good job of defending against this Bush's plans. I'm stuck with No Child Left Behind, the Patriot Act, and likely ANWAR. I know our guys are good, but they needed to be there to fight that stuff. Don't worry, I'll strongly support the nominee, but I'm pleased to support Dean.

[DianeK]

4. the democratic party

deserves bashing and gephardt needs to be called on that vote..thank god there is finally someone who dares to tell it the way it is

[sfecap]

5. Gee...how quickly we forget....

DU erupted in thousands of posts when the weak kneed Dems backed the chimp in his rush to war.

Now it's a bad thing to criticize them for it?

Remember the Rose Garden?

Give 'em hell Howard!!

[Andromeda]

69. Go Dean!

:kick:

[cjbuchanan]

6. I don't think this is an attack

Now I have only read the article, but it seems that he is reporting the facts. Gep did support the war and helped get it through the house. Also, the picture of Gep in the Rose Garden is fair because it happened.

However, the line that I wonder about is this one:
"Howard Dean has a different view," the ad says. "I opposed the war in Iraq, and I'm against spending another $87 billion there."

I recall him saying that he did support the $87 billion bill at one of the earlier debates (I think it was the first one with Clark). His reason was that we are in there now and we must make sure our troops have what they need. I really have not seen much else about this from his campaign.

All and all, the ad seems fair (again, I have not seen it, just read about it) but I would like more information on the $87 billion portion.

[Scott Lee]

14. Look closely - Dean said "ANOTHER 87 billion"

And this isn't just wordsmithing; BushCo has repeatedly stated that the latest 87 billion will not be the end of needed monies to fix his Iraq disaster.

Once again, Dean was right. Once again, democrat statists and GOP collaborators like Gephardt are unmasked.

[cjbuchanan]

19. You might be right

but to me that seems more then a little misleading. Has Gep said that he would give $87 billion more? If so, I have not heard him say that. If that is the point Dean is trying to make, I think he is making it in an unfair way.

[sandnsea]

23. It's a different $87 billion?

Is that what you're trying to say? Dean supported the $87 billion Congress passed, but is against spending some imaginary $87 billion that hasn't even been asked for and is attacking Gephardt over this imaginary $87 billion?

[redqueen]

24. Dean's always introducing these kinds of 'logic problems'

for Americans to try to decipher.

Can't wait for '04!

[SahaleArm]

44. Flat out False!

The Quote:

"October 2002, Dick Gephardt agrees to co-author the Iraq war resolution -- giving George Bush the authority to go to war," the ad says. "A week later, with Gephardt's support, it passes Congress. Then, last month, Dick Gephardt votes to spend $87 billion more on Iraq."

"Howard Dean has a different view," the ad says. Dean then says, "I opposed the war in Iraq, and I'm against spending another $87 billion there."

There's no doubt Dean's referring to the $87 billion Iraq appropriations bill ok'd by Gephardt last month. Dean said he would approve of such measures provided they were payed for by rolling back taxes.

[SEAburb]

8. Dean go negative, never has never will, he's the "front runner".

yuk yuk

[Pez]

9. campaign disinformation overload

from original article:

flip!

<snip>

"Howard Dean has a different view," the ad says. "I opposed the war in Iraq, and I'm against spending another $87 billion there."

Dean is spending about $250,000 over the course of the ads seven- to 10-day run, a typically large buy for the candidate...

<snap>

flop!

uuuh but what about this:

Q: $87 billion for the ongoing war on terrorism. Your vote, yes or no, and if yes, how do you pay for $87 billion?

DEAN: We have no choice, but it has to be financed by getting rid of all the president's tax cuts. Even though I did not support the war in the beginning, I think we have to support our troops. The $87 billion ought to come from the excessive and extraordinary tax cuts that this president foisted upon us, that mainly went to people like Ken Lay who ran Enron.

Source: Debate at Pace University in Lower Manhattan Sep 25, 2003

[redqueen]

11. Thanks for clearing that up.

In other words roll back the taxes and use nearly 1/3 of that money to pay for the occupation.

[Pez]

12. but i thought...

...that $$$ was earmarked for health care and eliminating the defecit in 5 years?

[redqueen]

21. Well,

I guess he could use the other 2/3 for that.

Actually ... it would be way over 1/3 for the occupation -- because that $87 billion is just the latest installment.

[dsc]

33. The tax cuts cost

over a trillion and a half dollars. 87 billion is not 1/3 of that amount, it is between 1/15 and 1/20 of that amount.

[redqueen]

47. I stand corrected. Mea culpa. n/t

just over 1/17th...

[Scott Lee]

13. Oh no!! Criticize The Gep? That evil, evil Howard Dean

Waaaaaaaa!!!!!

[killbotfactory]

16. LOL

That pic is awesome.

[redqueen]

22. You like it?

That's funny... I remember seeing it last year, used by Republicans against Democrats as we were protesting the Iraq War. So, to me, the picture is revolting in the extreme.

Where'd ya get it, Scott?

[mitchum]

36. Good call, redqueen

[redqueen]

29. Just a reminder...

I really would like to know where you got that image... really I would.

on edite: Here's where I've seen it before. Obiviously it's been changed for the Dean camp's use. However I must say I'm more than a bit disturbed that Democrats would be using it at all.

Again, I first saw this used by Repuglicans (as they mocked us) during the latter part of 2002, and the first part of 2003, as I was rallying anti-war support.

[w4rma]

32. So reactionary. Redefining is a very good tactic. Redefine the image (n/t)

[dsc]

34. And yiou have some link to back up where you got that?

of course you do.

[redqueen]

45. Yes, of course I do.

Yahoo... politics humor images.

But a google search for Democrat Seal will turn up numerous sources.

[helleborient]

46. Point to one Dean supporter....

I challenge you to find it on a Dean campaign website.

I don't like the image either.

[Scott Lee]

53. The "Crying Baby" seal

The source of this graphic is - it's all over the internet. I found it through a basic Google image search. It has a hundred variants for a hundred different themes, but I applied a little Photoshop work to it, and voila.

Yes, I know full well that it has been used against the Democrats by the right before. And it wasn't only to mock the antiWar Americans, either. It was used against Democrats after the results of the 2000 Selection, too.

Why did I use it? It's a wonderfully funny graphic and really communicates the message well. The fact that the neocons used it doesn't bother me at all. W4rma is correct, redefining an icon is a powerful act. You take it for your own cause. For example, I have some lesbian women friends who refer to themselves as "dikes" to intentionally steal away a hate term and take it's power away from the people who used to use it against them.

Is it an official part of the Howard Dean campaign? Absolutely not. I take full responsibility for it's use and absolve Dr. Dean and his campaign from any complicity or intent in it's use. It is all my decision to do so.

Any other questions?

[Jacobin]

65. LMAO.....ROFL.....

Geeze, that's a great pic!~!!!!!!!!!!!

:bounce:


:bounce:

[helleborient]

15. And Kerry supporters...

Are attacking Howard Dean for what he says about Democrats? While John Kerry slams the presidencies of Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton...saying they weren't "up to speed" with being President like a Washington insider would be?

Hmmmm...John Kerry and his supporters think it's ok to attack Democrats from outside the beltway, but inside the beltway Democrats should be immune???

[sandnsea]

17. Issues are issues

We've been saying it for months. They're all fair game in a campaign and one candidate can't say whatever he wants while other candidates have their issue differences characterized as 'attacks'.

[helleborient]

18. And hang the issue of fair campaign financing...

Right around Sen. Kerry's neck.

He's now looking to personal money to buy the nomination.

[LuminousX]

20. Personal Money vs The People's Money

What kind of Return on Investment is Kerry expecting from his personal loan or will he default on it?

[polmaven]

67. Unlike Governor Dean, of course

Oh....wait..personal money...sorry. It's been a long day, and I just reread you post. My apologies..Never mind!

[redqueen]

30. Kick

I'm surprised no one else is bothered by the Dean camp using a Republican pic.

[KaraokeKarlton]

37. Kick

I'm surprised no one else is bothered by Kerry, Gephardt and the DLC camps attacking Dean using Republican tactics.

If the image fits...

[Cocoa]

40. every time I see the "pink tutu" pictures

I remind people that Rush Limbaugh has them on his site, often refers to the dems' pink tutus, and calls Daschle "puff."

Not surprising, given that the pic and the humor is borderline sexist and homophobic.

Good catch on this one, redqueen. :toast:

[redqueen]

57. Seems like while the Republican right unites...

Our 'right' (NEW Dems) keeps helping the extreme right... dragging us further and further after them.

I really don't understand why anyone expects anything to be different in '04. My gut tells me we'll get a sickening reminder of '02. :(

[Scott Lee]

73. That doesn't apply to us of the New Dem LEFT....

We are causing a movement in the Democrat Party to smash it's calcified statism and ruling elite. We're invigorating it with some spine and passion again. We're making some converts and inspiring traditional Dems who became disenfranchised with an impotent establishment that loses elections.

So tell me, what is this "right" doing?

[redqueen]

74. Appealing to conservatives.

Adopting centrist positions.

Backing Bush.

Just like the huge losers in the '02 races did.

[Scott Lee]

84. Is there something "centrist" about opposing the Iraq war?

I don't think so, even by today's polls.

[Cocoa]

75. you're going to be disappointed

Dean is a politician like the others. Surprised you haven't noticed by now.

Btw, it's Democratic Party.

[Scott Lee]

83. Its the statists who will be disappointed

Look at the level of spit and venom they're throwing about. That's a sign that they feel threatened. That's a good thing.

And BTW, if I want to call it the Democrat Party, I will. Stop being a language nazi.

[eileen_d]

49. Oh, I am

Another stunning example of Democratic coalition-building from the Dean team. </sarcasm>

[NNadir]

38. Dean does best when he sticks to hitting Bush.

He's my candidate, but he's not perfect.

His best message to win is that in which he attacks Bush, not Gephardt.

We all know what Gephardt did about the war.

[KaraokeKarlton]

39. Gephardt is attacking Dean

No one has any room to complain about Dean dishing it right back at him. Yes, Dean criticized those who voted for war, but that was a valid issue to criticize and they DID vote for it. Gephardt has been lying in his attacks of Dean, so he has it coming. At least Dean is sticking to valid criticism and isn't being anywhere near as nasty as both Gephardt and Kerry are being. He's going to defend himself, as well he should.

[Cocoa]

41. like the Trippi letter about the gay bashing?

whatever became of that? That was a classy move, a real high point in dem primary politics.

[KaraokeKarlton]

42. If the guy told Trippi he was attacked

then of course Joe is going to say something about it. I wasn't there so I don't know how the whole thing started or what even happened for sure. Joe wasn't there, either. I suppose the staff member could have embellished the story or left out parts, but if that's the case, what are you blaming Trippi or Dean for? Because they believed their staff member? I'm a mother, and if my kid comes to me and tells me that someone hurt them or treated them badly, I'm going to be all over it like flies on shit simply because it's my job to look out for them. So, what is your issue with Trippi again?

[redqueen]

48. Really?

As a mom, I usually ask for a detailed account of what exactly happened, since kids usually will play up their side ... gee... why does that tactic seem so familiar? ;)

I guess the fact that it was dropped so quickly tells us what we need to know.

[KaraokeKarlton]

60. And I'm sure they always tell you the entire truth, too...

C'mon, you know better. Sure, it's entirely possible that the Dean staffer behaved badly or even provoked whatever happened. I used to piss off my ex husband when I told him off, too...so was it my fault when he beat the shit out of me over it? If the guy was assaulted or man-handled and he wasn't doing that first, then the other people deserve getting their arse chewed for it. It's silly to demonize Trippi or Dean for speaking up over it just as it's silly to demonize a battered woman for bitching at her abusive husband after he hits her.

[Cocoa]

62. it was a dirty trick

Face it, you know in your heart that Trippi had no reason to escalate that incident so publicly and so quickly, when the facts were in dispute, during a campaign when the two candidates were neck in neck.

As far as I know, this was the single case of a dirty trick by any candidate in the whole primary campaign so far. We may see more later, but this is the first as far as I know.

[redqueen]

63. Of course they don't...

which is why I don't fly off the handle every time I hear them tell me of some wrongdoing.

Thing is, in this case, it wasn't like a woman being beaten (nice demagoguery, tough ;) ). Instead it seems as if Mr. Uber Campaign Manager Trippi might have actually jumped the gun just a weeee bit.

Again, the lack of any further pursuit of the issue is telling.

[Cocoa]

66. it's funny you mentioned the mom thing

the guy that made the charge is just 24 years old, a big factor in why I think it's possible he threw in the gay slur thing, along with the fact that no one corroborated it. It also means that Trippi can't have known him for very long, so makes me question how sure he could have been that it was true.

With such a serious charge --Trippi realizes how serious gay bashing is, right? -- you'd think he'd want to be absolutely sure before he sent and published that letter. What, again, was the reason for making the letter public?

But no, he just sent it out, same day or the next day, very reckless imo. Speedy releases are a feature of political campaigns, not normally associated with honest accusations of wrongdoing.

[Jacobin]

64. Gephardt is a republican

I'm glad Dean called him on it.

Its ridiculous. He was pressured (coward) into voting for IWR, voted for the abortion ban, voted to keep funding republican companies raping Iraq and the U.S. voted to make flag burning a crime in the constitution....hell, he's the Zell of the Midwest.

[sandnsea]

70. It's about going after Bush

Isn't it? How come when anybody calls Dean on his Rockefeller Republican tendencies, all we hear is that we're supposed to go after Bush?

[redqueen]

72. Because we should do as Dean's supporters say...

not as they do.

Ditto for Dean.

When he attacks other candidates for months, that's okay.

When they attack him, that's baaaad.

:eyes:

[helleborient]

77. Just be careful to not attack with one side of the face...

And complain about attacks with the other.

[helleborient]

76. That's just stupid...

Dick Gephardt's principled stands for working people in this country is the mark of a true Democrat.

I dislike his vote on Iraq as much as anyone, and I'm campaigning against him for the nomination, but to suggest he would ever level the kinds of attacks Zell Miller has on the Democratic party as a whole is ridiculous.

[Cocoa]

78. thank you

It's very easy for the very few Dean supporters who write dumb stuff like that make it look like that's the way all Dean supporters are. If more of you good ones called them on this more often it would help greatly. :toast:

[helleborient]

79. I do my best...

And thanks for noticing!

[JohnKleeb]

80. Youre probably one of the more rational ones Ive encountered

You give us :thumbsup: if news is good for us and stuff, I appreciate that. I am sorry for that comment made in the other thread, I think it goes all ways honestly. When I see Gephardt who also is not my candiate but who I do like for his labor work called a republican, I am edgy. Sorry that things have to be this way really. Its gotta stop.

[redqueen]

81. It's noticed.

:D

IMO the ability to disagree yet still have a rational (even if a bit heated) debate is a mark of maturity.

[helleborient]

82. Agreed!

:-)

[mzmolly]

68. Did Gephardt lose you when he played politics? Dean is right,

Gephardt supported the war.