The crazy "ride" that the manipulators took the Dow on today further reinforced

[T Wolf]

my idea that certain financial/economic "areas" should NOT be played in the casino known as Wall Street.

The fact that there is a winner and loser on every transaction should be a red flag that warns us off.

Look at it this way - should your life or death be dependent on whether Donald or Rupert makes money on a particular trade? Of course not!!! Of course, that is what the insurance corps do, but that is another, though, parallel subject.

But the zero-sum game is the nature of all economics now. Winners and losers. Maybe that works in a friendly poker game, or even an unfriendly one. But it is disastrous for real-world situations. Especially when they do not risk their own money, but that of others.

Just as healthcare should not be a product bought and sold for profit - neither should the financial health of an industry, or a nation.

These cretins are gambling with our money and our lives, while they skim all the profits off for their personal accounts.

Until the entire "market" is reined in to a great degree, we will continue to suffer the consequences of a rigged game, without even having a chair at the table.

[dmallind]

1. But only Donalds and Ruperts are relevant here.

Even if an unhealthy portion of your retirement invetsment was in Accenture or P&G it was only relevant to you if you retired at 2.48pm today and immediately issued sell orders without limits. Since nothing essential changed at the companies, correction was/is inveitable. This is inider professional traders winning and losing at arbitrage, and is not likely to hit any "normal" investors.

[gravity]

2. It is only gambling in the short term

The only ones who lost money from todays drop are the ones who sold into it and they were mostly hedge funds doing it at their own losses. The markets corrected itself in minutes.

In the long run, your profits are going to be based on the actual growth of the companies you own and that isn't a zero sum game. If you are long term investing, what happened today would not have affected your investment at all.

[T Wolf]

3. That is correct. You don't lose if you don't sell. Unless the "investment" tanks completely.

But too much is short-term BS and manipulation for the insiders. Investing in a successful (or potentially successful) business does not drive the market anymore.

[girl gone mad]

4. Maybe that was the market 20 years ago.

That certainly doesn't reflect the attitude in board rooms and brokerage firms today. With few exceptions, buy and hold is for suckers.

[bemildred]

5. Buy and hold is definitely for suckers. nt

[Art_from_Ark]

6. "Buy and hold" is the short form of

"Buy and (be left) hold(ing the bag)"

[bemildred]

7. Correct.

Basically, it means you are a chump. It ought not be that way, it was not always that way, but that's the way it is now.

[raccoon]

8. I sort of agree with you and the other posters who say "buy and hold" is for suckers.

But what can you do? Put it all in CD's?

[bemildred]

9. You have to keep in it cash, or you have to watch it and manage it.

Generally, I do one of two things:

1.) Buy when I think there is a bottom and watch it until a.) it gains 10-20% or b.) I give up on it, and then sell; this is usually on a 3-6 month time scale.

2.) Put it in cash (money market usually) and not worry about it (except for currency "fluctuations", inflation, and institutional failures).

At least as cash, a dollar is always a dollar to pay your fixed rate debts. But there are no guarantees these days, those days when you could invest for a modest return and feel safe are long gone, killed by Reagan and all the free-market fundamentalists, they hate the very idea of people's money being safe.

[Statistical]

10. "But the zero-sum game is the nature of all economics now. " Wrong.

Global GDP has continually expanded over last century.

Hence the pie is getting bigger. You may (and I agree) that the pie hasn't been distributed fairly but it would only be a zero sum game is inflation adjust global GDP remained flat.

[ozone_man]

11. Not any more.

The GDP is artificial now, fueled by our trillion dollar deficits, apparently for many years into the future.

Buy and hold was good up until 2000. Now it's risk is much greater than the reward. We're in a downward trending or crashing market now, for another five years probably. When we see a real bottom, the buy and hold may be right again. Not sure there will still be a stock market by then though. Short and hold perhaps. :)

[fasttense]

12. I don't believe that little mini-panic was meant for traders

I think it was meant as a warning to Congress. The Congress was considering limiting the size of Wall Street banks to make them NOT too big to fail. It was Goldman Sachs reminding Congress with their computerized gambling techniques that not only are Wall Street banks to big to fail but they are too big to control.

And the result was that the bill was NOT passed by Congress. Financial terrorism works, mission accomplished.