We've Had 40-Mpg Cars Before

[Kolesar]

http://channels.netscape.com/ns/autos/package.jsp?name=autos/40mpg_cars2

t's taken state-of-the-art hybrid gas-electric technology to boost fuel economy into the 40-mpg range.

Or has it?

late-article exceprt:
"Over the course of the past 20-25 years, the federal government has imposed crashworthiness, bumper-impact and "passive" safety requirements such as air bags that (along with our desire for larger, roomier cars) have helped bulk up the weight of the typical car, including economy cars, by quite a bit. Even a very small modern economy car like the 2005 Honda Civic tips the scales at a comparatively beefy 2,500 pounds. That's nearly 1,000 pounds heavier than the original 1970-1979 Honda Civic CVCC, which had a curb weight of just 1,610 pounds.

Now, it's certainly a positive development that today's economy cars are competent performers and much less likely to get you killed than their tin-can ancestors of the 1970s and 1980s. But there's a price to pay for these improvements. A heavier vehicle needs a more powerful--and thirstier--engine to move it. As a result, many of today's "economy" cars are significantly less fuel-efficient than their ancestors.

The automakers have attempted to compensate for the increased bulk and our desire for better performance by coming up with ever more efficient engine designs, the use of lighter-weight composite materials and the adoption of overdrive transmissions to lower engine RPMs (and thus fuel consumption) at highway speeds. But there's only so much that can be done.

Forty mpg seems to be the wall we can't surmount, at least not without the aid of gas-electric (or diesel) technology.
"

Read the article to see how these heavier small cars of today have significantly faster acceleration. A new Dodge Neon is twice as quick to 60 mpg as that Datsun B210 I drove in the 1970s. I think there is a regulatory solution to achieve safety AND great fuel economy in the American highway fleet.

[demodonkey]

1. I used to get 36-38 mpg in my 81 Chevette and my 87 Escort...

on the highway for sure. Little 4-cylinder engines, not much power, but FINE for me.... I LOVED those cars!

[rjbny62]

14. only problem with driving these little cars is safety

with all the huge SUV's all over the place, you feel pretty small.

[LaurenG]

2. In the 80's

VW Rabbit and Isuzu (diesel) both got 40 mpg. It's a whole lot of BS that comes out of DC regarding gasoline.

A kid I knew invented a carburetor that got 200 mpg he sold the patent and promptly suicided.

My father as a child used to use bio diesel (corn) to run the tractor on the farm. The technology is available, it's just hidden away.

[Kellanved]

3. Well

No, that doesn't compute.

Remember the (discontinued) VW Lupo: a state-of-art car wich got 80 - 100MPG.

[sellitman]

7. The Lupo or Polo never made it to the States unfortunately

It had a 3 cylinder engine and averaged 65 mpg.

[Kolesar]

8. What are you getting at?

[Kellanved]

9. It is possible to make cars with a better mileage than 40MPG

There just isn't a market for such cars.

[Kolesar]

10. Because they are small?... eom

[Kellanved]

11. I believe so

Not to mention: without Air Conditioning, without a maximum speed in excess of 200 kph and too expensive.

[Kolesar]

12. I understand

However, I think that the tiny cars like the Honda Civic CVCC and the Datsun B210 were cheap to buy. I agree with your general point.

[bloom]

18. I think there is a market...

they just weren't "marketed".

[jody]

4. My diesel VW Rabbit got 52 mpg at 55 mph. I put 200K miles on it

until it was totaled by a hail storm.

In the summer, I had to turn off the air conditioner to enter the traffic from an on-ramp but, it was a superbly built automobile and incredibly reliable.

[sellitman]

5. I had a Rabbit Diesel

It was very fuel efficient but was so slow off the line that it was dangerous to drive in my estimation. Merging onto a highway was a white knuckle experience. It also was smelly & noisy. The new TDI's are a world different experience from what I have read. Maybe it's time to look into a Diesel again?

[rjbny62]

13. converted TDI diesel to veggie oil with no change in performance

I've been driving a VW TDI diesel that was converted to run on vegetable oil. You never notice a difference in performance, and it is great to not be dependent on the middle eastern oil. A friend told me that if this country used just the land that they pay farmers not to cultivate, there would be more than enough to oil to all the cars that are currently being driven here. And, it is a renewable resource. I guess the gov't doesn't want to go down that road just yet, because of all the money the oil companies are making now.

[Kolesar]

6. The CAFE standard is flawed because it is an average

As it is, each automaker is required to achieve a fleet average for cars or for trucks/minivans/SUVs. If the fleet average is above the standard, the automaker is required to pay one penalty fee. The only time a gas-guzzler tax is seen by the consumer is when some rich person buys one of those vehicles that gets ~5 mpg.

The solution should be a line-item fee on the sticker of any car that gets fuel economy more than one "increment" less than the standard. If the standard is 26 mpg, then there should be a minor fee of about $200 for autos that are 3 mpg below the standard and progressively higher fees for worse fuel economy for autos that are grossly below the standard. A vehicle that gets 20 mpg should have a fee of $500, and a vehicle that gets 17 mpg should have a fee of $2000.

Then, the consumers will make the decision. If you cannot afford a gas guzzler, then you will have to get by with something smaller. Buy a minivan if you have a lot of children, rather than one of those planet-destroying big SUVs, and you get your fee down by $1500 (using my fees above).

Further, the auto/truck distinction shall be eliminated. The standard will be the same for autos or SUVs.

I could see this policy leading many consumers to buy practical 2500 pound automobiles.

[Xithras]

19. I disagree about the auto/truck distinction.

It's there for an important reason...there ARE a LOT of valid uses for trucks with large displacement engines on farms and in the trades, and those large displacement trucks will never see the same kind of fuel efficiency as a passenger car.

The theory behind the exemption, however, was that work trucks don't get driven nearly as many miles on a daily basis as passenger cars do. While they may pollute more, they were supposed to get driven less, balancing their polluting effects. This worked fine until SUV's came along and turned the entire balance on its ear.

What we need to do is say that SUV's are NOT trucks, and impose bed or frame requirements to prevent manufacturers from putting auto bodies onto truck frames (which is what SUV's are). That alone would solve 90% of the truck exemption problems.

[madrchsod]

15. my geo metro

gets 35-40 and i had a honda crx that got 35-40 miles per gallon.but these two cars did not have all the crap on them but the downside is that you would never want to get into an accident with them...

[phaseolus]

16. My metro got 54 mpg when it was new

It had a manual transmission and no air conditioning. But it was well-built and very comfortable -- it had the roomiest driver's seat of any car I've owned, and the windshield actually allowed me to see suspended traffic signals without bending my neck down. (I'm 6'3" and some cars' windshields stop below my eye level...) It wasn't the fastest accelerating car I've ever owned but I could keep up with 85mph traffic on freeways with no problem.

Only downside for me was that dickheads would tailgate because their precious egos were harmed by being stuck behind a Metro. Or maybe that was a source of amusement...

I loved that car.

[Bamboo]

34. The thingy on the Hummer made a boo-boo.

I have a 1991 CRX HF and the window sticker said 49/52mpg but I get 45mpg because I rev the engine since it only has 62(sixty two) horsepower.There is a light on the dash to remind you to upshift and the transmission has tall gearing.I just replaced the clutch by myself,I can pick up the transmission with one arm and waxing it is like polishing a shoe.The people that give me grief are the women in the luxury SUVs,if they can take their frustrations out on me then their defenseless children will not have to suffer when they get home.Some people feel vulnerable in a small car I just ask them if they feel vulnerable walking into a repair shop.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/7474.shtml

[Kolesar]

35. You wax your transmission?

Nobody told me I am supposed to wax my transmission. I suppose I could hold it between my knees and buff the housing with a long cotton cloth made from a pair of blue jeans.

[Bamboo]

36. Freudian Slip.

Since I have it out why not polish it.
Just look at those pasties,my mouth is watering.
http://www.4and20pastycompany.com

[Kolesar]

37. It's pronounced "PASS-TEAS"

One of my coworkers and I went to lunch the British Baking Company near where we work. He pointed at the glass cabinet and said "Yeah, I remember when I was in the Air Force in England, and we used to go out for pasties". The female clerk grimaced and corrected his pronunciation. It was a rich moment. That guy always embarassed us.

What does this have to do with transmission wax, anyway? :)

[OneBlueSky]

17. oil companies make their money selling gas . . . they don't want . . .

us driving cars that use less of their product . . . they want us driving cars that use more . . . to the oil companies, 10 mpg is far, far preferable to 40 mpg . . .

and who represents the oil companies in Washington? . . . hmmm . . .

[happyslug]

20. Cars can get over 40mpg here is an article on how:

The problem is do you want a car that can perform like today's car? The answer is no, but if you are willing to accept much lower speeds than 200mpg cars are not only possible but will occur as the price of gasoline goes through the roof in the coming years.

http://www.jhcrawford.com/energy/new_cars.html

Top five fuel efficient cars world wide (Including proto-types):
http://www.concordacademy.org/2_ca_today/1_academics/2_departments/dept_science/projects/2004_spring_appl_fizz/fluids_chapters/llupo/physics.doc.htm


http://cellar.org/iotd.php?threadid=1363

Official US VW site (Notice no Lupo):
http://www.vw.com/

Official UK VW Site (Notice the LUPO is for sale in the UK):
http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/home

[Strelnikov_]

24. I Agree. Extensive Conservation Opportunities In Personal Transport

For transport, I think people need to accept lower speeds, size and weight to maximize afford ability and energy conservation.

Consider the Twike from a conceptual standpoint.



http://www.twike.ca/

25-50 mi. range (longer w/ current generation Li Ion batteries), 50 mph speed, for a stated 300 mpg (gas equivalent) energy consumption. Or as they publish, at 12,000 mi/yr less energy than your refrigerator uses. Add an efficient 4 HP internal combustion engine burning ethanol or bio diesel, the range becomes limitless, and you have one hell of an efficient way to move people from point A to B. (And currently, a quick way to separate you from your money, at $18,000/ea.)

(For the DU pedants, note I said 'conceptual').

[happyslug]

29. I saw an Isetta on TV Recently (I believe on a Toyota ad)

Isetta:

http://www.cqql.net/bmw.htm

Europe after the 1956 oil Embargo had not yet fully recovered from WWII so mini-cars were in, large American Style cars were out. The Isetta was one of the small cars.

List of other "Mini-car" of the past:
http://www.microcar.org/ourcars.html#m

And the Mini-Car Museum:
http://www.microcarmuseum.com/info.html

Look at this Honda:

[happyslug]

31. And don't' forget the Velo

http://www.microcarmuseum.com/tour/velocar-h.html

The car that served France well from 1940-1945 and can still be seen today.

[Coastie for Truth]

32. Some cars from the 1930's, 40's and 50's --> King Midget, Crosley

KING MIDGET

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CROSLEY - remember the neighborhood delivery trucks

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AMERICAN BANTAM - Predecessor of the Jeep and the SUV - seriously

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[Coastie for Truth]

21. The "Ford Fellow" (PhD paid like a VP for "Thinking")

who invented the solid state ignition has supervised the building of some"black box" computer intensive "Rubber Tired LANS" with stuff you wouldn't believe - digital valve lifters, continuously adaptive timing and mixture etc. etc. etc - and was getting above 50 mpg in a 3500 pound American car.

The "magic" was that the engine had a whole continuum of "sweet spots" for best fuel economy and clean tail pipe emissions, and a very smart transmission. And everything - engine, transmission, brakes, suspension, worked together through the "Automotive Data Bus.

When the project started an Intel 8086 equipped PC was $2000. Learn tyour imagination play with today's Pentium equipped PC at $800.

[Coastie for Truth]

22. A lot of Joe's work is on Computer Controlled Lean Burn Engines

Check out Joe's later papers at:
http://www3.ltu.edu/~asik/publications-01d.html.htm
but the papers were presented at (Ford internal) conferences on "Power Train Electronics" (computer control of the power train and suspension).

[One_Life_To_Give]

27. Bombardier is only commercial use of Lean Burn

AFAIK the only commercial application to date for lean burn technology is the Ficht Injected Evinrude outboard motors from Bombardier. It looks like it is working reasonably well for them now. But the efforts to design these engines bankrupted OMC who initiated the design.

[Coastie for Truth]

28. Good artticle in this month's IEEE Spectrum

about an "independent inventor" who invented a sophisticated clean burn control system.

[AngryAmish]

23. Most people can buy a tuning chip for their cars

To maximaize horsepower. Couldn't that also be done to maximize fuel economy?

[muriel_volestrangler]

25. Greenpeace redesigned a Renault Twingo to get about 70mpg

http://archive.greenpeace.org/climate/industry/reports/smile.html

It uses a very small, supercharged engine which is efficient at normal speeds, but has a top speed of 150 km/h (94 mph).

[phantom power]

26. Heck, a top speed of 80mph would be plenty.

That's higher than the speed limit pretty much everywhere, except maybe Montana.

[Massacure]

30. There is more to power than speed.

That power can be used for other things like hauling cargo or acceleration.

[phantom power]

33. Yes, that's true.

Are you saying that a car with a top speed of 80mph can't have enough power for acceleration, or hauling cargo?

It's a design question. How much cargo do you want to haul? How much acceleration do you need?