Guns NOT in the News 10/21/03

[Withergyld]

This thread is to highlight the fact that most firearms are used properly each day and cause no harm to anyone. Here is a firearm that was not misused today and did not harm anyone/anything.

[juancarlos]

1. My .357 Magnum wasn't misused either! n/t

n/t

[DoNotRefill]

2. But but but!!!!

it has a KNIFE ON THE END OF IT!!!

You mean it didn't stab anybody, either?!?!? ;-)

[Withergyld]

7. It has a grenade launcher too!

But my local Wal-mart is completely out of rifle grenades :( Maybe I can get a raincheck.

[CarinKaryn]

3. You guys are really reaching...

This sounds so desperate...and sad.

[MrBenchley]

4. LOL!

Nailed it in one...

[Withergyld]

5. we are not reaching,

There are between 300,000,000 and 275,000,000 firearms in the U.S. Some here feel it necessary to create a thread each day to highlight how firearms are misused. The number of firearms misused is an extremely small percentage of the total firearms in the U.S. In response to that thread I started a thread highlighting one of the other 300,000,000 to 275,000,000 firearms that was not misused.

[MrBenchley]

9. Surrrrrrre, with...

we can tell....

[Superfly]

18. WTF was that gibberish?

"Sure, with we can tell?" Got a grammar problem?

[Withergyld]

19. Mr B

Doesn't like to type out my user name so he refers to me as "with"

[Superfly]

20. Aha...I thought it was dyslexia...

could still be, though....

[CO Liberal]

24. My Truck Wasn't Involved in an Accident Today, Either

That doesn't mean that our highways cannot be made safer. And that's all I'm looking for gun control to do - keep society safer, not disarm it.

The sad truth is that day after day, guns ARE used to rob, intimidate, inlure, and kill thousands of people a year in this country. And every day I can find DOZENS of stories through Google that show this - but you pro-gunners are hard-pressed to find a SINGLE STORY in the course of a week that shows a defensive use of a gun.

Bottom line? If there are al these defensive uses of a gun each year, why can't we find them?? Coould it be that they only exist in the fertile mind of John Lott/Mary Roche????

[DoNotRefill]

25. I can't find a single news item....

about how cute my kitties are. That doesn't mean my kitties are not cute. For another example, Bush doesn't get nearly as much negative press as he deserves. Does that mean he's not deserving of negative press?

The absolute LOWEST figure put out by the Government that I've seen of defensive gun uses puts the figure at something like 70,000 a year. That's the LOWEST. Depending on methodology and source, that figure may run as high as 2.5 million a year. Even if you assume that the lowest figure is the accurate one, that's a LOT more than the number of people murdered or killed in accidents annually.

[CO Liberal]

26. And It Still Doesn't Change The Fact.....

...that in the wrong hands, guns can be used to rob, rape, injure, and/or kill.

I understand that some people feel that having a gun keeps them safe - I feel that keeping guns out of the hands of those who should not have them keeps us ALL safe.

[Withergyld]

27. I am all for keeping guns out of

the hands of criminals and those deemed mentally incompetent. However, most proposed gun control legislation will do little to reduce criminal access to firearms.

[CO Liberal]

29. How Do You Know That??

It just sounds like the old "slippery slope" argument.

[Withergyld]

30. I have shown on numerous

occasions where the "gun show loophole" will do little to prevent criminal access to firearms. I have also show where the AWB has done little to prevent crime. Both of these are "feel good" legislation with little if any effect on crime.

[CO Liberal]

34. Two Items Do Not Define The Whole

Perhaps these two specific items aren't the do-all, end-all crime preventers. But something else may be, and there's no reason to pooh-pooh the entire concept of gun control just because you disagree with a few measures.

[Withergyld]

36. I have no problems with the NICS system

I does a great deal to prevent criminal access to firearms. I think waiting periods are a waste of time. I think the one gun a month thing is a waste of time. I have posted links to studies that have shown consistent focused enforcement of current laws changes HOW or WHEN a criminal decides to use a firearm (Boston's operation ceasefire)
40% of criminals get firearms from a friend or family and another 40% use an illegal source of some kind to get their firearms. If the true goal is to reduce criminal use/misuse of firearms these are the areas where changes will have the most effect on the problem. Until these areas are addressed everything else is window dressing.

[Withergyld]

28. Well...

"If there are al these defensive uses of a gun each year, why can't we find them?? Coould it be that they only exist in the fertile mind of John Lott/Mary Roche????"

How many newspaper articles do you see where someone was able to succesfully avoid a collision while driving a car?
On the other hand, most car accidents are not reported in the Newspaper. Generally only the most horrific/deadly accidents are reported in the Newspaper. Just because they are not reported does not mean that car accidents do not occur. The same is true for crimes avioded through the lawful use of firearms.

"That doesn't mean that our highways cannot be made safer. And that's all I'm looking for gun control to do - keep society safer, not disarm it."

I have no problem suporting laws that will make society safer, however most proposed and many current gun control laws do little to make society safer.

[CO Liberal]

22. Yes, They Are... Aren't They???

"so desperate...and sad"

:-)

[RC]

6. That gun was designed to kill people.

The fact that it did not harm anyone today does not detract from that deadly fact.

BTW the proper use for most firearm is for killing. And this rifle was designed for - killing people. The bayonet is to save ammo in close quarters - to finish off the victim.

So what's your point?

[Withergyld]

8. I must be misusing it then

because I choose to use it to put .310 diameter holes in a target. I hope it doesn't get confiscated because I am not using it for it's intended purpose :shrug:

[CarinKaryn]

10. If you were using it properly

you'd be ramming the knife into someone's body and wrenching it around, trying to sever arterys and organs. Sounds like sporting use to me.

[Withergyld]

11. I plan to use it for hunting this Fall.

If/when I am successful in using it to hunt I will post a picture for you.

[MrBenchley]

12. By the way

One of the more idiotic assertions in the gun dungeon is that we should turn our back on the 80% of America that do not want assault weapons back on the street to pander to the peculiar tiny minority who cream their jeans over assault weapons, in hopes that they will vote Democratic.

[Withergyld]

13. The rifle depicted is NOT an Assault Rifle

and is NOT covered by the current law being pushed to renew/strengthen the current AWB.
80% of Americans are ignorant of what an Assualt Weapon is and how rarely it is used by criminals.

[MrBenchley]

21. I've said repeatedly the ban should be expanded

and I've yet to see anything to make me change my mind.

[slackmaster]

32. I think more like 95% are ignorant about AWs and AW laws

I would bet that more than half of "likely voters" out there do not understand the distinction between semiautomatic assault weapons as defined by federal law, and selective-fire weapons covered by the National Firearms Act.

Even most gun owners have no clue. The disinformation campaign orchestrated by Republicans Jim and Sarah Brady and their followers has been very effective.

[CarinKaryn]

37. I'm tired of your tired arguments about what an "assault" weapon is

As another poster states here, all military guns are designed to kill. They are ALL assault weapons. You have no reason, and no right to possess these arms.

[demsrule4life]

38. Wow guess you don't have much stanima

You been here for a total of two days and you are tired? While you are at it what else in your infinite wisdom should people not be allowed to possess?

[CarinKaryn]

40. Wrong -

I've been listening to these stupid arguments about what is and is not an assault weapon for years. A rifle with a bayonet is designed for assaulting people. Arguing otherwise is just an attempt to hide from the real issue.

[slackmaster]

41. I have a Swedish Mauser bolt-action rifle made in 1900

It has a 5-shot internal box magazine. Functionally it's similar to millions of firearms used for hunting.

It used to be issued to soldiers in the Swedish army. It has a bayonet lug. I even have a bayonet for it. I've used the bayonet to slice salami.

Do you consider my 103-year-old obsolete rifle to be an assault weapon?

[CarinKaryn]

42. Why would you consider it obsolete?

Still shoots fine, accurate out to sniping ranges, bayonet for your in close hacking and slashing, why don't you tell us why this was an assault rifle in 1900 but should not be considered one today.

[Romulus]

43. how about muskets?

circa 1776? Or "assault bows" and their "armor piercing" arrows, circa 2000 b.c.e? How about the ubiquitous fixed-bladed knife?

"Anything from the military that was designed to kill people" would sure lump in a lot of things. The internet was originally a DOD experiment in commmand and control systems. That would be "command(ing) and control(ling)" others to kill people. Or take night vision devices, or many other gee-whiz electronic gizmos. All designed to enhance the ability to "kill other people."

Still shoots fine, accurate out to sniping ranges,
Based on your criteria for labeling a bolt action rifle an "assault weapon" subject to seizure because of its accuracy and functionability, I would like to thank you for being honest about beliefs about firearms and what government should do to those who own firearms.

[slackmaster]

44. Obsolescence is relative to intended use

It is obsolete as a standard-issue rifle for foot soldiers.

Still shoots fine, accurate out to sniping ranges, bayonet for your in close hacking and slashing, why don't you tell us why this was an assault rifle in 1900 but should not be considered one today.

Mostly true but nobody uses bayonets for close hacking and slashing any more. The US Army and Marine Corps no longer train recruits to use bayonets in that manner.

In 1900 the term "assault rifle" did not exist. It would have been called simply a rifle.

Despite obsolescence relative to its originally intended use it's useful for target shooting. With modifications it could be used for hunting. Many people own "sporterized" former military rifles for that purpose. To me it's an item in a gun collection; an object that I retain mainly for its modest financial value. It might be useful as a home defense rifle but I prefer the M1 Garand.

[Romulus]

45. eh?

Mostly true but nobody uses bayonets for close hacking and slashing any more. The US Army and Marine Corps no longer train recruits to use bayonets in that manner.

Care to elaborate? This is news to me . . .

[Superfly]

47. 6 years active duty Army, here

and exactly 0.00 minutes of bayonette training for me. Like I said, the only thing I used my M-9 for was to slash open MREs....and even then, that was a struggle, seeing as how the packages are made from some alien material and an M-9 can't hold an edge for shit.

[slackmaster]

49. Does the M-9 bayo work as a wire cutter?

I seem to recall that you can use an M-9 bayonet and its sheath to cut barbed wire.

[Superfly]

50. In theory, yes...

but also, in theory, a knife should be sharp. (We used our PX purchased Gerber and Leathermen tools for snipping wire)

[demsrule4life]

53. Air Force cops still do

AirForce Security police have two jobs, peactime law enforcement and security, wartime air base gound defense. In other words the infantry of the airforce. Bayonet training is still taught. In fact the worse bayonet course is at "voliant scorpian" at Little Rock AFB, which is a two week training course for SP's. The bayonet course is four hundred yards with running over and crawling under obstacles and engaging several dummies with the butt stroke, slash and stab routine. Very few get through it without tossing their cookies. And god forbid if you lose a peice of equipment on the course, only way to retrieve it is to go through the entire course again.

[slackmaster]

48. I may be hallucinating but I believe I heard it on the Discovery Channel

Recently. I hope someone will roast me over the coals if I'm mistaken.

[CarinKaryn]

51. Regardless of your spin

Bolt action rifles were the assault weapons of WWII and were still used in Afganistan to drive the Russians out of the country. Your claim that they are NOT assault weapons is just...weak.

[Superfly]

52. If I assault you with a baseball bat

is that then considered an assault weapon?

The "assault" modifier is just emotional hyperbole designed to elicit an adverse public reaction.

[slackmaster]

54. Thank you for proving my point

The term assault weapon is so nebulous as to be useless in determining what is a "good" gun vs. what is a "bad" gun. Legally we have several different definitions in the US. And you, CarinKaryn, have so far not shown that you are able to articulate a definition of assault weapon that stands up to simple scrutiny.

Bolt action rifles were the assault weapons of WWII and were still used in Afganistan to drive the Russians out of the country.

True indeed, except that the M1 Garand semiautomatic rifle was put into widespread use by the US during World War II. It doesn't fit any of the state definitions of assault weapon or the federal one. It has a bayonet lug BTW.

I have a photo snipped from a newspaper, that shows a Marine atop an M1-A1 Abrams tank in downtown Baghdad. He's holding a bolt-action Mauser military rifle, like a 98k or equivalent. They're not only still useful but superior to the standard M16 for targets at a distance (I won't name a specific figure because it might spark a heated debate).

Your claim that they are NOT assault weapons is just...weak.

Yes, especially since I've never said that. Aren't you the one who said ordinary folks like me shouldn't be allowed to own "military guns"? I really don't care which items in my gun collection anyone wishes to call an assault weapon. There still isn't any justification for banning any of them.

[Withergyld]

55. your definition of assault weapons is MUCH broader

then the definition in the current AWB and the laws being pushed to renew and strengthen the AWB. Either definition only applies to semiautomatic firearms with detachable magazines. A bolt action rifle is by definition NOT semiautomatic and automatically NOT an assualt rifle. Also a semiautomatic rifle with a NON detachable magazine is not an assault rifle. It is a pretty looooong stretch to look at an old bolt action mauser and label it an "assault rifle"

[slackmaster]

56. If I remove the bayonet lug will my century old Mauser stop being an AW?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[Wild Bill]

57. ah ... in that case we can call the bolt actions a "sniper rifle"

Those "sniper rifles" can be banned right after we get those "assault weapons" banned. There is no reason anybody need to be accurate with their shots.

[DoNotRefill]

58. More misinformation....

"Bolt action rifles were the assault weapons of WWII and were still used in Afganistan to drive the Russians out of the country."

The "assault weapons" of WWII were the MP43/44s, the PPSH series, and M2 carbines, while the Soviets were driven from Afghanistan with AK-47s, RPGs, and Stinger missiles.

If bolt-action rifles qualify as "assault weapons", then wouldn't large sticks and glass beermugs also qualify as assault weapons? After all, they can be used to assault somebody...

[CarinKaryn]

60. You are twisting semantics

to support a position that cannot be supported.

Both the Russians and Germans were primarily armed with bolt action rifles in WWII. You are saying that only full auto rifles (which were also used) can be called assault weapons. Wrong. The rifle in this picture is a weapon of war - an assault rifle.

The Afgans took their RPGs from Soviets they killed with bolt action assault rifles. Their Stinger squads were supported with bolt action assault rifles.

If entire armies were armed with beermugs, then yes, those would be assault weapons.

You are hiding behind words.

[DoNotRefill]

62. wrong again

an assault weapon is a select fire weapon firing an intermediate cartridge.

a bolt-action rifle is no more an assault weapon than a brown bess musket is....after all, a brown bess was designed for military use, was used by the military, and had a bayonet, too.

And if you do some reading about afghanistan, you'll find that most of the supplies used were not taken from dead russians, but rather were brought in from Pakistan.

[Liberal Classic]

63. Between 'assault' and 'sniper' rifles there's not much left

for public consumption, which seems to be the point.

[Romulus]

64. "Toast to the post"

"Between 'assault' and 'sniper' rifles there's not much left
for public consumption, which seems to be the point."
Posted by Liberal Classic


:toast:

[slackmaster]

39. Please define "military guns"

And please don't reply with "military guns are guns that are designed to kill".

It's only fair to advise you in advance that no matter what definition you come up with someone (or several people) will come up with arms that fit your definition and are also clearly intended for sporting purposes like hunting or target shooting.

[MrBenchley]

46. Of all the dumb arguments from the RKBA crowd....

....this "nobody knows what an assault rifle is" is perhaps the dumbest.

[Superfly]

16. Is that an assault weapon?

Looks like a C&R firearm to me. You do know what that is, right?

[Superfly]

15. Oh yeah...that's right

"the right of the people to keep and bear arms (only in sporting circumstances) shall not be infringed..."

[Liberal Classic]

31. So should both knives and guns be banned?

What's an appropriate penalty for the unauthorized possession of knives?

[Superfly]

14. Another gun scholar speaks!

"bayonet is to save ammo in close quarters - to finish off the victim."

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha....excuse me....save ammo? finish off the victim?

I used my bayonet for opening MREs, so I must not be using it right, huh?

I have 6 years of cambat arms experience under my belt now (Army, Field Artillery), and I can tell you that I would not be thinking of saving ammo when dispatching an enemy with a bayonet. I would be thinking of how much lead I could get into him in the shortest amount of time possible.

Finish off the victim? That's what the heel of your boot is for!

[DoNotRefill]

17. And Tang was invented to help put people on the moon.

does that mean all Tang is good for is putting people on the moon?

[Wcross]

23. Sad :(

"this rifle was designed for - killing people. The bayonet is to save ammo in close quarters - to finish off the victim."

It is an obsolete semi automatic military issue weapon. Every gun is designed to kill, is that the criteria we are going to use to ban firearms? The bayonet is for when you run out of ammo- finishing off your opponent (victim??????) Uh, when someone is so determined to attack you that you have to use the bayonet, they could be described as a little more than a mere victim.

[slackmaster]

33. Swords were designed for killing people as well

As were flintlock muskets. Some people like to keep obsolete military weapons as collectables or historical oddities.

[Liberal Classic]

35. Isn't the SCA subversive?

Aren't they a paramilitary group?

:P

[DoNotRefill]

59. actually, they're considered to be a non-violent subversive group...

which considering the activities at their meetings, I don't understand. Sure, they're subversive, but non-violent?!?!?

[Liberal Classic]

61. But they use swords and practice military tactics!

Granted, one thousand year old tactics, but tactics nonetheless.

Besides, they're a bunch of bloody monarchists, every last one of them!

:)

[ogminlo]

65. Just today?

Well since that gun didn't kill anyone today, it must be okay to keep it loaded under your pillow! YES! As long as a gun kills fewer people than days it exists, it is a relatively harmless item. Dumb.