Should we ban everything that accidentally kills kids?

[Tim01]

No, probably not huh? No, just guns because some people are afraid of guns.
I did a search on "toddler dies", guns didn't even make the first 2 pages, I didn't look any farther. Beaten,strangled on a cord, golf cart turns over,drowning,left in a hot car, on and on and on.
Spending time trying to make guns more of a boogy man than they are , causes divisions in the democratic party, wastes energy, hurts the democratic party as a whole, and gets republicans elected.

At least twice as many people die from alcohol as guns.Alcohol is not protected by the constitution,guns are. Alcohol has no real use at all except as recreation, guns have lots of uses.
So, why not go after alcohol? There is no rational reason to go after guns instead of alcohol.

[tabatha]

1. Who wants to ban guns?

[TheWraith]

4. All three of the largest gun control advocacy groups, for starters.

Leaked internal memos have shown they consider bans on particular types of scary looking guns as a first step to banning all firearms.

Also a lot of people here on DU.

[FSogol]

6. So? Has the Obama admin said anything? Is it a big goal of the Democratic party?

No, then why the constant deluge of paranoid ramblings about gun grabbers?

[X_Digger]

8. Both HRC and Holder have talked up a ban..

Holder:
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Story?id=6960824&page=1

Clinton:
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/vp/29892261#29892261

Whitehouse.gov:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/agenda/urban_policy/

Obama and Biden would repeal the Tiahrt Amendment, which restricts the ability of local law enforcement to access important gun trace information, and give police officers across the nation the tools they need to solve gun crimes and fight the illegal arms trade. Obama and Biden also favor commonsense measures that respect the Second Amendment rights of gun owners, while keeping guns away from children and from criminals. They support closing the gun show loophole and making guns in this country childproof. They also support making the expired federal Assault Weapons Ban permanent.

Democratic platform:

We will protect Americans’ Second Amendment right to own firearms, and we will keep guns out of the hands of criminals and terrorists by fighting gun crime, reauthorizing the assault weapons ban, and closing the gun show loophole, as President Bush proposed and failed to do.
Source: The Democratic Platform for America, p.18 Jul 10, 2004

Other recent (non-admin) notables:

Kerry:
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/6350856.html

latest crop of bills:

HR45 (in committee)
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.45.IH:

HR6257 (dead)
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:H.R.6257:

HR1022 (dead)
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h110-1022

[FSogol]

10. So, I see:

"Obama and Biden also favor commonsense measures that respect the Second Amendment rights of gun owners, while keeping guns away from children and from criminals."

Sounds good. How does that hurt you, a presumed non-criminal gun owner?

Also your fears of HRC are largely a result of the RW propaganda machine. How exactly does the Secretary of State influence domestic gun policy?

[X_Digger]

13. Updated previous post to reflect party platform, too.

You asked if the administration or the party were talking about a ban and I responded, that yah, the admin and various players are.

No HRC doesn't have the power (nor does Obama) to create a new AWB out of whole cloth.

What we've seen lately is that outright talk of an AWB gets some pretty strong backlash-
http://www.newsweek.com/id/191414

The recent trend has been to blame the problems in mexico on US gun sales:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5ifYTZHEXekQPV8T44gTSvfcfXoeQ

Regardless of the fact that the cartels are using fully automatic weapons, grenades, and rocket launchers- things that aren't available to the civilian market, things that a new AWB wouldn't address.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-mexico-arms-race15-2009mar15,0,229992.story

You might be surprised to learn that most gun owners support background checks to keep guns out of criminals hands (dirty little fact that the Brady group doesn't like to admit- the NRA, GOA, and other pro-gun groups supported the bill that created the NICS.)

What I don't support is ginning up panic about 'assault weapons' by intimating terrah / lawlessness in Mexico when the cartels aren't getting their fully automatic weapons from gun shops in El Paso or Dallas.

[guardian]

32. One person's "commonsense"

is another person's idiocy.

Most gun control group's idea of commonsense are things like

* you must store ammunition in a locked container that is separate from the the locked container that is used to store the gun

Thus, making it useless for self defense in you own home.

[Tim01]

15. Banning is a goal of President Obama, Secretay of State Hillary Clinton

Attorney General Eric Holder.
The list of people who have said it is their plan to ban guns starts with the current President of the United States and goes down from there to people on this board.

[FSogol]

20. You're listening to too much right wing propaganda. n/t

[Tim01]

21. Go argue with Obama, he is the one saying he is going to ban them.

[slackmaster]

26. A ban in the 2008 DNC platform

Have you read it?

[TheWraith]

28. I'm not saying those ramblings are all correct or not tinged by paranoia...

But that's true for a lot of ramblings on DU. It's an issue that needs to be addressed, and the fact is that there are people out there who want to ban all firearms ownership, same as there are people who want to spy on the internet, outlaw private cars, and other things which are clearly contrary to the idea of a free country.

[Caliman73]

30. Read any post about guns on GD and many on this forum.

There are several posters who continually say that guns should be confiscated and banned. Many of them insult responsible gun owners often.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slackmaster]

19. I can see you aren't very well informed about the issue

Try Google.

[TheWraith]

3. Cars kill more kids than anything else.

And parents aren't far behind on that list, it's sad to say.

[jeepnstein]

5. Bans are a fool's errand.

Prohibition was just a roaring success. Today's War on Drugs is every bit as effective.

What we need to do, as a society, is to hold parents accountable for the dumb things they some times do. Stupidity is easy to spot. Leaving guns lying around, handing out alcohol freely, permitting drug abuse, not supervising children appropriately, keeping dangerous animals as pets, well, I could rattle off about a million ways to get a kid hurt that is easily prevented.

A kid who accidentally gets killed in a pool, on an ATV, or even in a hunting accident is a genuine tragedy. I have a good friend who is living with the aftermath of such an accident and it's a special kind of hell. In spite of all our best efforts some times bad things just happen.

With rights come responsibilities. There are those among us who are irresponsible and quite often, but not always, those folks are the ones who make the headlines after getting a kid killed.

[walkaway]

7. I think you should have your guns and alcohol.

They go together well. I do believe that no police officer should have to respond to a home with a known gun.

Why should they put there lives at risk for someone who might shoot them and can protect themselves?

You and your children are welcome to your guns. It's more likely you'll kill someone you know so It's not a problem for me. The only people I know with guns are members of the police force and they are constantly trained in gun safety and have had real background checks and psychological testing.

We don't really know about you and we can't rely on the guy at the gun show or the shop owner to take care of it.

[rl6214]

16. And how are they going to determine

Which homes have guns?

Oh, right, we are going to register them.

[Tim01]

17. Registration for buying alcohol.

And no police response to your house if you are on the list.

More people are killed as a result of alcohol than guns. Alcohol is twice as dangerous.

[SsevenN]

24. Gosh you are a fool

SO how about the cops who have to respond to the home of a felon? You know the kind of person that generally posses firearms ILLEGALLY? You have a big problem with honest ownership, but have no problem with the criminal element? You know, the people who actually COMMIT crimes? :crazy:

WHy should cops risk their lives? Oh I dunno, maybe because it's part of their job description?

Interestingly enough, cops are responsible for more accidental shootings than CCW holders, who would have figured with all that 'training' eh?

But your right, let's infringe on the majority's ability to keep and bear arms for protection/sporting/recreation because of a ridiculously minimal percentage of those people might cause harm accidental or intentionally.

Hell lets do the same for cars and alcohol. Ban cars and booze too, we don't need them and they are responsible for way more tragedy's than firearms.

[Caliman73]

31. What a riddiculous statement

It does not address the OP's statement at all and just promotes ignorant emotionality. The OP is addressing the disproportionate response that people tend to have towards firearms when there are factors that contribute more often and at much greater frequency to the death of people. You are either not reading the post or are intentionally misrepresenting the issue.

Police do receive training for gun safety, but I also know several police officers as well and firearms training is not a high priority and is typically something the officer has to seek out. There is more free training available for police but most of it is not mandatory. Every Police department is different and all have different policies. There is not a standard for continued training after the academy. There are only minimums for proficiency with a firearm and those occur at the discretion of the chief. Also, there is a study that showed that 80% of law enforcement officers have to re-take the personality inventories given because they score similarly in the psychopathic deviate, paranoia scales to criminals. Police are just average human beings with all the regular problems, that receive some extra training. They are not special beings who we trust inherently, especially if you are a minority.

You rely on Federally licensed firearms dealers to submit the paperwork for the background check to the State or Federal Department of Justice and wait for the government to approve or deny the sale. Just like when you take your car into a shop, you trust that the mechanic has received the certification and training to perform the repairs to your brakes before you drive off putting your life in their hands.

If you cannot trust the certifications given by the government, then you have no business trusting police, because they get certified by that same government.

[guardian]

33. As I recall, alcohol was also banned

Who would have thought they'd ever ban beer?

[msongs]

9. the toddler was just excercising his 2nd amendment rights IF he was in the militia nt

[westerebus]

11. Can we ban kids?

Oh, right survival of the species. :sarcasm:

[TwilightZone]

12. Well, they did ban lawn darts.

A lot of toys get banned because they're dangerous.

Interesting question, though I'm not sure anyone is trying to ban *all* guns.

[X_Digger]

14. Nobody in power is overt, no..

Every so often, one of the major players goofs and lets their goals show..

This is old, but I doubt there's much change:
http://www.varmintal.com/hci.htm

[slackmaster]

18. And Water Wiggle

After one strangled one child.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Y8m29ZLX5ag/SWGfUpozJhI/AAAAAAAACac/8caVYtONtC4/s400/WHAM-O+WATER+WIGGLE+AD+1962.jpg

[dashrif]

22. Nope

You can still get em http://www.lawndartparts.com/

[TwilightZone]

25. Did you miss the disclaimer?

"ASSEMBLED LAWN DARTS WON'T BE SOLD. IT'S ILLEGAL."

They're also $60+ per dart. Why? Because they're banned.

[dashrif]

35. They're

not banned if you can still buy them, yes $360 will get you a set so only the rich can play lawn darts.

humm reminds me of say the nfa


edit: for my non spelling ass

[Hoopla Phil]

23. Yes, if it's for the children we must.

[Joe Steel]

27. Gun Death is No Accident

Should we ban everything that accidentally kills kids?

Gun deaths are no more accidental than are deaths occurring during an armed robbery. If you kill someone while you're robbing him, it's murder. You brought the gun with you so you can be presumed to have been willing to use it.

Guns are made for killing. If you have one and someone dies as a result of it's primary purpose, it's not an accident. You acquired it to kill someone and that's the way it was used.

No accident.

Spending time trying to make guns more of a boogy man than they are , causes divisions in the democratic party, wastes energy, hurts the democratic party as a whole, and gets republicans elected.

As does abortion and gay marriage. Should Democrats abandon them for the sake of unity?

[Tim01]

29. Are you hysterical? Try to get a grip on yourself.

Gasoline is meant to burn, so if somebody gets burned by gasoline it was no accident.*ridiculous*

You are irrational.

[Caliman73]

34. Then I guess there are a great many police that should be behind bars.

They have a higher rate of accidental shooting than the average owner, but since their are no accidental gun deaths, we should just lock them all up too right?

Your statement is patently dumb. Yes guns are designed to fire projectiles that kill and injure. However, you conveniently forget about self defense and hunting, which are legitimate uses.

I actually agree with you that people who handle firearms irresponsibly should receive harsh consequences, but your statement that the only purpose for a gun is to kill is just ridiculous. There are over 300,000,000 firearms in this country in the hands of 80,000,000 people. Are there that many deaths in this country? What is the percentage of death by firearm in this country relative to the prevalence of firearms and owners of firearms? Can you do that math? Seems like a great many firearms aren't fulfilling their sole purpose doesn't it?

[Joe Steel]

37. The finer points of intention are irrelevant

Your statement is patently dumb. Yes guns are designed to fire projectiles that kill and injure. However, you conveniently forget about self defense and hunting, which are legitimate uses.

The finer points of intention are irrelevant. Ultimately, the only reason for having a gun is death. The mere possession of a gun is evidence of deadly intent.

I actually agree with you that people who handle firearms irresponsibly should receive harsh consequences, but your statement that the only purpose for a gun is to kill is just ridiculous. There are over 300,000,000 firearms in this country in the hands of 80,000,000 people. Are there that many deaths in this country? What is the percentage of death by firearm in this country relative to the prevalence of firearms and owners of firearms? Can you do that math? Seems like a great many firearms aren't fulfilling their sole purpose doesn't it?

Simple arithmetic is the hallmark of the simplistic argument. Comparing gross numbers doesn't illustrate the issue. If you want to understand the problem compare the number of times a death or injury occurs to the number of times it could occur; for instance, when a gun is loaded and in the presence of an angry or confused person who is physically capable of using it.

[Caliman73]

39. Every breath we take is one step closer to death

Your argument continues to be a dumb one. If you say intention is irrelevant and outcome is all, then why do anything? Everything you do in life is just filling the time until your inevitable death. The number of time death and injury occur compared to the number of times they could occur? Wow. Just stay at home in bed. Although the number of times you can just drop dead from a stroke...

Why not just admit that you are irrationally scared of a death at the hands of firearms which is less likely than death as a result of many other mundane things. Just admit that you want to feel safe without actively defending yourself. You want others to make you feel safe.

[sandnsea]

36. Kids are required to be restrained in cars

Why shouldn't adults be required to restrain their guns when they're around kids.

Common sense gun regulation. It's not gun grabbing and my more than regulating banks is money grabbing.

[Tim01]

38. Car seat requirements are more like

hearing protection while shooting.

The awb is the same as outlawing sportscars.