Ain't Nothin' Like A Gun Show...

[KharmaTrain]

http://washingtonindependent.com/37360/scenes-from-the-real-america

By David Weigel 4/6/09 10:54 AM

I spent Saturday at the bi-annual Knob Creek Machine Gun Shoot, right outside of Louisville, Ky. Gun enthusiasts of all stripes were there — from the National Rifle Association and sportsmen to militia members to white supremacists and Obama birthers. Here’s a collection of choice photos from the show

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Looks like a happening place...one very much worth watching!

Discuss...

[B o d i]

1. Kids, Nazi memorabilia, and tools of death all in the same place, what's not to like?

:doIreallyneedasmileyhere?:

[KharmaTrain]

4. At First Look, I Thought That Kid Was Ralph Reed

:rofl:

[Kolesar]

9. It's hard to look past the Nazi emblem on his little combination cap

I know

[Democracyinkind]

2. If America is based upon a social contract, isn't owning...

... a machine of war slightly insane, suicidal and horny for the apocalypse?

[FudaFuda]

6. If the contract is the Constitution, then it's part of the contract

Whatever your feelings might be about it, the drafters of that contract you mention didn't seeit that way. Jefferson especially was a big advocate for everyone walking around armed.

[Democracyinkind]

12. So Jefferson wouldn't have opposed people driving around with tanks?

Nice point. But silly, somehow.
I believe Jefferson read Hobbes, Locke and Hume... I really do.

[rl6214]

23. It's not illegal to own a tank

Just sayin.

[Statistical]

25. I don't think you want to use Jefferson as a role model for gun control

Prior during and after the revolutionary war there were privately owned cannons, and warships.


Jefferson also felt that the occasional watering of the tree of liberty w/ the blood of armed rebellion was a good thing. It kept freedom strong.

I am just saying an anti using Jefferson as an example of gun control doesn't make much sense.


It would be like trying to quote a fundie as an example of church supporting evolution.

[slackmaster]

8. No, it's just a hobby

Like racing cars or collecting Dresden figurines.

[Democracyinkind]

13. Cool, I'm totally for it in that way. But one mans hobby is another mans

means of war. I find that kinda problematic.
And with machines of war, I mean machines of war, not guns.
But I don't know what I'm talking about, I guess these things are regulated? As in, we know who owns artillery in this country?

[slackmaster]

15. Machine guns and artillery pieces have been strictly regulated since 1934

You may not like their politics, but legal machine gun owners are probably the most law-abiding people you can find anywhere. They have a substantial amount of money invested in their hobby, and are strongly motivated to stay out of trouble.

[Democracyinkind]

16. That's what I figured on second thought. Thanks for the post.

... The idea that anyone would use that kind of machine gun to pull something like Pittsburgh, true, and I don't care about their politics as long as their not dangerous...

[jmg257]

17. No, because part of that contract was your duty to defend the freedoms of the society.

Yours, and your fellow citizens. (life, liberty, etc. - most of that stuff in the pre-amble was based on a well armed people).

Of course, things have changed a bit with the creation of a huge military and the select militia, but the people's freedoms remain - mostly.

[Democracyinkind]

18. You make sense, I admit, and I don't really disagree I just...

can't get over the thought you mentioned - that we have delegated the duty to defend the freedoms of the society to certain people... and in theory at least we educate these people and demand high moral standards of them.. Which again justifies the trust we place in them by giving them Weapons that could kill us all.
Somehow this kind of test doesn't apply to a private owner, and that's somehow problematic to me even though I don't believe the government could sanely implement such a test.
And I guess the numbers are on your side, if not for America, then surely for the world: Registered assault rifle owners rarely commit mass killings, but still every time there is a Waco/Columbine-like act I ask myself what for.
Is there any way of preventing these things from happening without banning guns in general (something I couldn't support) ??
... would these things still happen if guns were banned?

Is there a factual answer to that question? I can't seem to make my mind up on this question.

[jmg257]

19. Good points, and good questions. REAL quick, my 1st response

is "Yes, these events would happen if guns were banned". NOT if that ban was enacted without a MASSIVE intrusion of liberty (and not just the 2nd amendment).

I think if asked to give up arms, many lawful people would be afraid of being rendered helpless against those who wouldn't give them up. The only way to eases the fears of such people would be to ensure they have NOthing to fear, not from criminals or wackos or even from the state (and believe me, there are asshole cops & soldiers too). Think of Prohibition - it was useless in it's intended goals (reduce alcohol consumption and violence associated with it), just the opposite happened because it was too easy, & for many crimninal elements much more cost effective, to ignore/violate the laws. The penalities for gun violations would have to be so great that no one would risk violating the laws, & the state would have to take intrusive steps to ensure "everyone" was complying. (And still there is no guarantee, not when in some cities 90% of gun offenders have criminal histories.)

Madison wrote with regards to the Bill of Rights, "Supposing a bill of rights to be proper...I am inclined to think that absolute restrictions in cases that are doubtful, or where emergencies may overrule them, ought to be avoided. {note he thought ALL the rights enumerated in the BoR were absolute, even the right to arms, but!...he added...} "The restrictions however strongly marked on paper will never be regarded when opposed to the decided sense of the public...".

When enough people are filled with so much fear/disgust/anger of gun violence that they are willing to give up ever more of their own freedoms, for the possibility of a bit more security, only then you will see if a real ban could be effective.

[Democracyinkind]

22. I'm not in favor of trading rights for security, it's a no brainer. But

I can't settle with the notion that these things just happen. But it somehow really is a question of human nature, not of rights, and in that sense we just have to live with it.
But then again. We do have these insane numbers of gun incidents! Every industrialised country has killings and mass shootings but the murder by gun rate in the US is just so insanely high.
What other uniquely american aspect besides the pro-gun interpretation of the const. could be used to explain american vs. european/canadian/asian numbers??

[SteveM]

26. Does your social contract really include a "horny" clause?...

I've heard gun-controllers obsessing about penis length to no end, but I have yet to hear of "horny for the apocalypse." Didn't get that in my American government classes.

[Doc_Technical]

3. I read that it was alright to kiss your gun on the first hunting trip,

as long as you don't shoot your mouth off about it.

[YOY]

5. Love the birthers.

Just demanding a fucking kick in the head for the sheer level of stupid.

[KharmaTrain]

7. Call It Stupid Squared

How much money ya think they shook down over the weekend? The grifters know an easy mark, and right now these people are as gullible as they come.

[YOY]

10. Hell, if I was a NeoNazi I'd give them money.

Big O's presidency has to kill their little shriveled hearts. They have to have some hope left in their pathetic little racial supremacy game.


I'm sure all sorts of racists (aside from the usual non-racist RW kooks) are going for their crap.

[KharmaTrain]

14. Obama's Election Has Been A Racist's Wet Dream

The Southern Poverty Law Center recently reported that recruitment in militias have been on the rise over the past year. The combination of the Mexican "threat" (minutemen), Obama's election and the economic hard times is a bonanza to those who peddle hate. Unfortunately I expect more shootings like we saw in Pittsburgh and Oakland but instead of energizing these losers, it will just isolate them even further.

Cheers...

[proud patriot]

11. grr

what a digrace .. old glory should not be worn on a Nazi uniform.

:mad:

[aikoaiko]

20. A gun show is a true big tent.

[derby378]

21. Down here in Dallas, most racist material has been expunged from gun shows

If you go shopping for a rifle or pistol at one of our gun shows, you won't have to deal with copies of The Turner Diaries, Christian Identity propaganda, KKK tracts, Fenton Bibles, etc. There is a little Nazi military memorabilia for sale, but there's lots of historical WWII stuff available, so I take it in stride - some of it was probably captured by our troops during the war.

[AtheistCrusader]

24. Same here in Seattle (Puyallup/Monroe shows)

There is some stuff for sale that's more in the 'trophy' of war category, but anything that actually PROMOTES the nazi bullshit, is grounds for removal from the show, forfiture of the money you paid for a spot to rent/membership, etc.

I'm not real happy about the trophy aspect either, but eh, some people will collect all kinds of strange crap, whatever.

[SteveM]

27. In Austin, I try to wear a tie-dye or left-leaning T when at a gun show...

The small number of far-out rightists/racist folks are rather outnumbered and usually found with the most aisle space around them -- few wish to be near them.

I also see significant numbers of Mexicans, blacks, Asians, foreigners, women -- even a few Crackers.