Nearly 300,000 killed in epidemic of gun violence since Columbine; groups call on leaders to act

[Omaha Steve]

http://www.examiner.com/x-2071-DC-Special-Interests-Examiner~y2009m4d19-Nearly-300000-killed-in-epidemic-of-gun-violence-since-Columbine-groups-call-on-leaders-to-act?cid=exrss-DC-Special-Interests-Examiner

April 19, 9:48 AM

Freedom States Alliance and States United to Prevent Gun Violence said in an statement issued today that gun violence is spiraling out of control and call on congress to show leadership to end the crisis.

Ten years after the Columbine massacre on April 20, they assert it is painfully clear that the United States squandered the opportunity in the last decade to enact policies to reduce and prevent gun violence. They consider it more chilling is that the United States continues to slide into a dangerous spiral: unable to confront the powerful interests of the gun lobby and industry that is holding the American government hostage.

However, gun violence prevention advocates said solutions are still immediately available and called for bold leadership in Congress and the White House to lead the fight. For example, they call on the Obama administration to enforce the import ban on assault weapons and they urge Congress to remove the Tiahrt restrictions that impede ATF's ability to stop illegal gun trafficking, especially weapons flowing into Mexico to arm the drug cartels and reverse President Bush's policy to allow the carrying of concealed weapons in our national parks.

Over the last ten years, and despite overwhelming support from the American people to enact stronger gun laws, the United States has lost significant ground to confront our nation's gun crisis. America's "lost decade" since the Columbine tragedy can be summed up as an appalling record of failed leadership, squandered opportunities, blind ideology, and raw intimidation and power by the gun lobby and industry.

"Our country simply cannot afford to lose any more time, much less a decade, before we act to stem the gun violence epidemic in America," said Barbara Hohlt, Executive Director of States United to Prevent Gun Violence. "Change does not just happen by itself. America needs advocates in our government who are willing to show courage and integrity in fighting for solutions."

FULL story at link.

[leftstreet]

1. Political suicide

Apparently both parties are good at it though

[HysteryDiagnosis]

2. I've had a gun sitting on my table for 3 years now.... not one homicide

has occurred here yet, still waiting.

[X_Digger]

3. Umm.. violent crime and gun crime is down, so..

.. we're doing something right without more gun control.

[russ1943]

28. gun crime quit declining about 10 years ago

Violent crime consists of a lot of crime not committed with firearms. The crime most related to criminal use of firearms in our country is homicide, about two thirds of our homicides are committed with firearms.
In 2005, 24% of the incidents of violent crime, a weapon was present.

Offenders had or used a weapon in 48% of all robberies, compared with 22% of all aggravated assaults and 7% of all rapes/sexual assaults in 2005.

Homicides are most often committed with guns, especially handguns. In 2005, 55% of homicides were committed with handguns, 16% with other guns, 14% with knives, 5% with blunt objects, and 11% with other weapons.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/cvict_c.htm#weapon

Columbine was in 1997 and for only one year 1998, did crime in general continue to decline.

Since 1999 (about ten years ago) until the most recent statistics available (2006) murders, robberies, and aggravated assaults pretty much quit declining.
The “crime is declining” mantra is simply another deception in the gun enthusiasts arsenal.
Bureau of Justice statistics showing firearms use in crime illustrate that since 1999:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/tables/guncrimetab.htm

Murders, robberies, and aggravated assaults have all risen in both total number and rate, and most relevant, the percentage committed with firearms has risen.
Murder with firearms, the total number, the rate and the percentage committed with firearms, all have increased from what they were about 10 years ago in 1999. Same with Robberies with firearms, and Aggravated assaults with firearms.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

29. There were fewer gun homicides in 2007 than in 1999 and 1997.

The 2007 numbers are the most recent. Of course you are ignoring the huge decrease in gun murders as compared to the early 1990's. Actually the numbers have dropped considerably when compared to 10 years prior. Since the numbers aren't in for either 2008 or 2009, it is impossible to compare the rates to 1999.

[russ1943]

31. I'm not ignoring anything,

You posted “There were fewer gun homicides in 2007 than in 1999 and 1997.” What exactly are you saying and where do you get your info from?

If you are attempting to present information/statistics would you please provide a source, especially if your post is to correct what you think is an error.

In my post #28 I linked to a credible source, the Bureau of Justice Statistics, US Department of Justice. At that source the 2006 numbers were and still are, the latest available. I know there are other sources, some currently have statistics thru 2007 (FBI’s Uniform Crime Reports & even preliminary 2008) some are only thru 2005 (WISQARS Injury Mortality Reports). The most recent statistics available at the BOJ site I linked and quoted are thru 2006.

The point of my post is the repeated claim that crime is down, especially “gun crime is down” is a distortion.
I tried to point out that since Columbine in 1997 crime decreased for just one more year, from 1997 to 1998. Yes crime decreased, as it had been doing since the early nineties, but from then on, since 1999 (10 years ago) there hasn’t been any significant decrease.
In 1999 there were 10,128 murders with firearms, that was a rate of 3.7 per 100,000. In 2006 there were 11,556 firearms murders, a rate of 3.9. I’m not saying there has been a significant increase in firearms murders.
I’m pointing out the repeated claim that gun crime is down is no longer an accurate statement.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

32. Here you go.

As you know there are differences in all of the sites you listed most notably the CDC which has consistently far higher numbers of gun homicides than either DOJ or the FBI.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_07.html

If you look in this table

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/tables/guncrimetab.htm

you will notice that the numbers in the top table are estimates from The FBI Uniformed Crime Reports.

Depending upon what year you are comparing to it is conceivable that gun homicides are down. They were down according to the most recent available FBI Uniformed Crime Reports which was 2007. The most accurate statement is that gun homicides have been relatively stable since 1999 and they have remained far below the high numbers of gun homicides in the early 1990's. My apologies for disparaging you about ignoring the facts it's rare to find someone who wants to actually be honest and have a reasonable discussion on the matter.


David

[russ1943]

33. DOJ is more accurate .

You are correct, I know and understand most of the differences between the sites routinely referenced on this board.
FYI

For example, the FBI’s UCR cannot be quoted in this context.
The Expanded Homicide Data Table 7 shows only a portion of the homicides committed in that year.
In 2007 there actually were 16,929 persons estimated to have been murdered in 2007, not the 14,831 that table shows. The 14,831 is how many Supplemental homicide reports were submitted to the FBI.
You can see on the Tables from the DOJ I originally referenced, that there has never in the 34 years since 1973 been fewer than 10,000 murders with firearms. FBI’s Expanded homicide table 2003 and 2004 figures show for both years there were less than 10,000.

The DOJ figures are more accurate for this question.

My best guess is that with the known fact that there were 16,929 murdered and the percentage of those killed with firearms pretty constant (UCR places the percentage in 2007 at 68%) I calculate that 2007’s total firearms murders will be more, not fewer than 1999.

I seldom participate in reasonable discussion on this matter, but I’m a big fan of accuracy.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

34. A couple of questions then.

Why does the DOJ use estimates of the FBI's actual numbers? How are estimates more accurate than actual numbers? Not trying to be obtuse just trying to be accurate.

David

[russ1943]

36. They're both estimates..

To be accurate both are estimates.
The FBI’s UCR acknowledges (in text) the difference between what they state is the number of murders in different sections of the UCR. For example in the section on Violent Crime under murder they state;

Nationwide in 2007, an estimated 16,929 persons were murdered, a 0.6-percent decline from the 2006 estimate. The 2007 figure was, however, 2.4 percent above the 2003 level.

Law enforcement agencies submitted SHRs to the FBI for only 14,831 of the total 16,929 murder victims who were slain in 2007.
That’s about 88% of the total murders that the FBI has rec’d the additional data to compile the statistics you see in tables on things like weapons used.
If you go to FBI's Expanded Homicide Data Table 7 as you apparently have, you might mistakenly think that table shows a total 14,831 persons estimated to have been murdered in 2007 and 10,086 of those 14,831 were murdered with firearms. That isn't correct.

Estimates of both total murdered, in 2007 and those with firearms in the Expanded Homicide are then calculated both by additional information (SHR's)received and other factors like percentage of murders by firearms.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

39. Thorough answer I appreciate it.

I might disagree about the DOJ statistics being more accurate. Neither is truly accurate. The FBI statistics are from actual SHRs. Granted they miss a significant amount and not every community reports. But we can be relatively assured that the victims listed killed by firearms actually were. If I'm understanding things right the DOJ takes the percentage of gun homicides out of the total homicides reported from the SHRs and applies the percentage to the total number homicide victims to come up with a new estimate. My understanding is that justifiable homicides by law enforcement and civilians would be included in those totals. I appreciate the information, being accurate is important to me also.


David

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

35. The DOJ disagrees, they say it plummeted from 1993 until 2005.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/firearmnonfatalno.htm

Since you are a big fan of accuracy.

David

[russ1943]

37. Not exactly.

As Bill Clinton might say “it depends on what IT is”.
We previously were discussing firearms murders.
The table(s) at your linked site are titled “Nonfatal firearm incidents and victims, 1993-2005”.
So, first we have changed the subject from fatal (firearms homicide) to non-fatal.
Second this table is identified as “Source: National Crime Victimization Survey”, that is, a survey. It is important to understand that as far as
Homicides are concerned, (firearms or any other method) the NCVS can’t interview dead people.

The Nation's Two Crime Measures
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/ntmc.htm

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

38. Nonfatal firearm-related crime has plummeted since 1993, before increasing in 2005.

That's the title of the chart in the link. While I believe the DOJ took some liberties with the data and its interpetation, this actually addresses the orginal claim by x digger. I wasn't trying to switch things up on you that is why I specifically replied in a new thread.


David

[The Straight Story]

4. Have we had an epidemic of CCW carriers shooting up people in parks?

:shrug:

"and reverse President Bush's policy to allow the carrying of concealed weapons in our national parks."

Yeah, that will end the violence. Tell those criminals not only is it illegal to shoot people it is illegal to conceal their gun in the state park. I don't think such people will obey either law...

[Hoopla Phil]

17. Only the criminals

[quiller4]

5. Violent crime rates have dropped in that time period

which is something this group ignores. They continue to say the American people support stronger gun laws despite poll after poll indicating the opposite is true. Barbara Hohit and her cohorts have zero credibility.

[X_Digger]

7. Yes, a 'dangerous spiral'..

'overwhelming support from the American people to enact stronger gun laws' -- cept for the Gallup poll that says 51% are fine with leaving the laws where they are or relaxing them.

'Gave blanket civil immunity to the gun industry;' - you mean made it just as wrong to sue a gun mfg for a criminal misusing a gun as it would be to sue honda for a drunk driver killing someone?

'failed to renew and strengthen the federal assault weapons ban in 2004;' - the ban that increased the numbers of these guns 'on the street' yet didn't lower their already low incidence in crime? the ban based on appearance that was easily circumvented? How would you 'strengthen' that ban?

'refused to mandate background checks on all gun sales, especially at gun shows;' - you mean that the federal government didn't step all over the constitution's commerce clause and try to regulate intrastate commerce?

'allowed for the sheer proliferation of powerful .50 caliber sniper rifles;' - those $5,000 sniper rifles, those? Flying off the shelves. Riiiight.

'and prohibited the release of gun crime trace data to law enforcement officers through the Tiahrt Amendment.' - oh sorry, your cops can't go on a fishing expedition with gun sale data, but if you have a crime committed, the BATFE will be happy to trace that gun for you.

[Statistical]

19. maybe they mean more dangerous for criminals? n/t

[doctor jazz]

6. Fuck Ron Moore

and the Constitution-hating horse he sucked off.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

15. He really is a bozo

[old mark]

8. Still more anti-gun, anti constitution bullshit. These people have nothing but lies.

It is terrible how they use the deaths of people to advance their own agenda without regard to the truth or the law of this country.

mark

[old mark]

9. Still more anti-gun, anti constitution bullshit. These people have nothing but lies.

It is terrible how they use the deaths of people to advance their own agenda without regard to the truth or the law of this country.

mark

[anonymous171]

10. Waste of political capital. Also unconstitutional. nt

[krispos42]

11. 180,000 gun-related suicides since Columbine

And yet our suicide rate is about ⅓ that of Western European nations with stringent gun-control laws.




<sigh> Our homicide rate is at the lowest it's been in about 45 years. But if you read this agenda-pushing inflammatory drivel, you'd think the exact opposite.



And in "Freakonomics", the author attributes a large part of that to the legalization of abortion 20 years prior to the most-recent drop. Not all of it, but a pretty fair chunk.


Besides, a low gun-related homicide rate has zip to do with a low overall homicide rate. The UK is enjoying record low gun-related homide rates. However, if I was a Briton I'd think I'd be asking why the UK's homicide rate has doubled in the past two decades. Especially with all the strict gun control and 4.4 million police-monitored surveillence cameras.

[Hoopla Phil]

18. Thanks for that post.

[FunkyLeprechaun]

24. Do you have any recent numbers for that post?

Here you have 2005 and 2003, does that include homicide and suicide rates combined with PSTD of returning troops from Iraq?

Nor do you include Virginia Tech (happened in 2007). Yet, "Note 1: The 172 victims are Dr Shipman are included in the UK's 2003 numbers"

Look, I'm really glad you post statistics but at least use more recent data to bolster your argument a bit better.

[krispos42]

27. They are the most recent provided by the DoJ

I went to their site to see if they had any updated numbers a couople of months ago but not yet. They lag, apparantly. I made the chart over a year ago.

The chart is for every year; Excel auto-sized the little data table so it's actually showing about one year in three with actual numbers to look at. But the data points the graph was made from are every year.


The most recent Home Office report by the UK government had another year's worth of information in it, but without US numbers to compare it to it didn't make sense to include them.


Virginia Tech is not statistically significant in terms of annual homicide rates. We have 15 to 16 thousand murders annually in this country. The 32 students killed there compose about 0.21% of that total.

[mnhtnbb]

12. The USA is a violent country and has always been.

[madrchsod]

13. 30,000 per year? maybe-maybe not...

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-272090.html

[aikoaiko]

14. see sig line

The first step to reasonal gun control is to say, NO FEDERAL GUN BANS!

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

16. Only if you count suicides.

[Tejas]

22. + death by LEO

[virginia mountainman]

20. Obama said he WOULD protect the 2nd, and my Job....

What the HELL is the OP doing on this, a pro union, and a pro-civil rights board?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

21. Didn't the AHSA fold up shop right after the election?

[derby378]

26. Actually...

...the AHSA came out against a new semi-auto ban. Here's a link to the letter to Eric Holder:

http://www.huntersandshooters.org/node/1480

[Tejas]

23. "enforce the import ban on assault weapons" - same old clueless antis

Hello?
Anybody there?

There's already an "import ban on assault weapons".




That is all, you may now return to watching American Idol.

[benEzra]

25. And what does the "assault weapon" fraud have to do with it?

All rifles COMBINED account for fewer than 500 murders a year in the United States. Twice as many Americans are murdered with shoes and bare hands as with all rifles put together, regardless of how the stock is shaped.

[Patient]

30. Nearly 420,000 killed in epidemic of traffic accidents since Columbine.... Lets ban cars!

Roughly 42,000 a year.

Link: http://www.driveandstayalive.com/info%20section/statistics/stats-usa.htm