NRA Instructor Shoots Student: What Can We Learn?

[divideandconquer]

NRA Instructor Shoots Student: What Can We Learn?

Dennis A. Henigan

Brady Center Vice President and Author of "Lethal Logic"


When an NRA safety instructor accidentally shoots a student in one of his classes, is it a teachable moment about guns in America?

I am referring to an incident reported in the Orlando Sentinel in which a person attending a National Rifle Association class for applicants for concealed carry licenses was shot when his instructor's gun accidentally discharged during the class. The bullet penetrated a table before hitting the victim, who fortunately recovered from his wound.

I think it's safe to say that the NRA instructor in this case is unlikely to appear in future "I'm the NRA" promotional ads.

Here we have an individual, who the NRA itself has decided is such an expert in safe gun handling that he can teach a class in it, nevertheless accidentally discharging his weapon in a public place and wounding an innocent person. If this can happen to the instructor, what can we expect from his students, who presumably will be carrying their concealed guns on the streets?
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<http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dennis-a-henigan/nra-instructor-shoots-stu_b_680349.html>

What we can learn is the term "gun safety" truly is an oxymoron.

[DJ13]

1. A future VP is born?

[notadmblnd]

2. Guns don't accidently discharge. I've never known one of them to go off by itself.

The instructor was careless and negligent in ensuring that his gun was empty before using it as a toll to teach.

[MichaelHarris]

16. I've seen it happen

on a faulty 12 gauge with a bad bolt/firing pin. Crappy old bolt action goose gun, fired whenever it wanted.

[Callisto32]

26. So, a known "not safe" firearm continued to be used?

That, my friend, is negligence.

I agree though that "guns don't just go off" is often stated more strongly than it should. I think a better phrase would be "guns in good repair don't just go off."

I had a rifle where the owner messed around with the trigger fire upon closing the bolt. (This is why we point in a safe direction while loading.) We immediately deemed the rifle "unsafe" and removed it from use.

[TaterSalad]

44. You said yourself it was defective machinery

That's not the same thing

They call me, Tater Salad

[wtmusic]

58. Nope, never.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmRN00KbCr8

[Forkboy]

3. The first thing I need to learn is how not to laugh at stories like this.

:evilgrin:

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Let me offer you another one

we got a 9.11 call for a GSW... gun shot wound. So we dutifully respond to ... the Police Station.

Guess what? The Sergeant of Detectives (rought translation to his title) shot himself, and blew his right pinky off, with a cute, tiny, did I mention cute? 25 caliber gun.

He was playing with it, and forgot, I guess, to make sure it was clear... or rather you never play with guns and you ALWAYS assume they are loaded.

But it was really cute, the gun that is.

:-)

To this day I laugh at that one. I really have no idea why? Really.

[Gold Metal Flake]

4. Lesson 1: "Do as I say, not as I do"

I guess...

[ithinkmyliverhurts]

6. In my best Peter Griffin voice: Guns don't kill people.

Guns do.

Kill people, that is.

[Missy Vixen]

7. Wasn't someone advocating for "gun safety' classes in public school this morning?

But..but...but...there was no information about the type and caliber of gun used! This could happen to anyone! That student should have known better than to take a gun class!

:sarcasm:

We all know that all members of the NRA are in complete control of any weapon they're using. Maybe the student should have known to get out of the way, hm?

:sarcasm:

[PavePusher]

30. I guess we'd better stop teaching Drivers Ed then...

It gets kids killed, both in and out of the class.

[proteus_lives]

8. "What we can learn is the term "gun safety" truly is an oxymoron."

My twenty years of handling firearms says different.

Do you really believe the nonsense you spew?

[Electric Monk]

12. The student clearly deserved it.

He was coming right for us!

[proteus_lives]

13. Here's an idea.

Outlaw accidents!

That will work like gangbusters! I'm sure the Brady Bunch will be all over this idea.

[Electric Monk]

14. Or, instead of having airbags and seat belts in cars, have big sharp spikes on the dashboards.

That'll encourage everyone to drive safer :)

[Abq_Sarah]

9. Oh, please

The Brady center salivates over stories like this. If they applied the same standards to automobiles, kitchen knives, swimming pools, etc.. we'd all be living in caves.

[Hepburn]

22. Bad comparison...

...the ONLY purpose of a gun is violence.

The other items you mentioned have legitimate purposes and are not solely designed to petetrate violence.

Duh....:eyes:

[X_Digger]

23. Please chime in here..

I'd love to get your take on this..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x292384

[Callisto32]

27. Oy VEY!

This crap again.

Yes, firing a weapon is a violent action. Violence of motion, I mean. Driving a car is the same thing, only with a car there is a helluva lot more energy in a ton of steel and plastic going 65 than there is in a 55gr. Bullet going 3,600 f/s.

It is the END of the user that is violent or not. A car can be driven to the grocery, to acquire food. A rifle can be shot at a deer, to acquire food.

Firing a gun is no more inherently violent (in your use of the word) than throwing a baseball.

[Euromutt]

37. Or as one observer commented...

"A Honda Civic has more stopping power than a .45 ACP."

[Euromutt]

38. Whoops, dupe. Plz ignore

[rrneck]

29. Violence against who?

How does the intent of its design guarantee that it will be used for that purpose or against the wrong person?

[PavePusher]

31. Is self-defense legitimate as far a s violence goes?

Or hunting? Or target shooting competition?

[Pavulon]

33. Spinal fluid leaking from your ears looks the same

regardless if a drunk driver smashed you with a car or shot you in the face. You still die.

[SteveM]

49. What is significance of "...the ONLY purpose of a gun is violence?"

What do you mean by this? Of what significance is this viewpoint in our society? Please outline, specifically, what bothers you about "...the ONLY purpose of a gun is violence." If there is an implication I have missed, then explain it.

[DBoon]

10. I suspect someone has been run over during a drivers ed class as well

lethal machinery kills

Even the best trained handler can have an accident

[PavePusher]

35. Oops, I swear I hadn't read this...

prior to posting my comment (#30)above. No plagarism intended.

[spin]

11. We learned that there are two types of shooters ...

those who have had an accidental discharge and those that will.

We can also learn the importance of always keeping the gun pointed in a safe direction.

[spin]

15. The article states some questionable facts ...

for example:

But as to guns in the home, we know that for every time they are used in a self-defense shooting, there are four unintentional shootings (as well as seven criminal assaults and eleven attempted or completed suicides). For those who carry guns in public, the benefits are demonstrably not worth the risk. A recent study shows that individuals in actual possession of a gun are over four times more likely to be shot in an assault than persons not in possession of a gun. The research also reveals no evidence that making it easier for people to carry concealed guns reduces crime; indeed, its effect has been to increase aggravated assault.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dennis-a-henigan/nra-instructor-shoots-stu_b_680349.html

Firearms are often used for self defense without any shots being fired. My daughter stopped an intruder breaking into our home by forcing a sliding glass door open. When she pointed a large caliber revolver at him, he ran.

The police were called and filed a report. The chances that my daughter's use of a firearm ever made it into a data base of defensive uses of firearms from which any statistics were used is far less likely than than my chances of winning the Florida Lotto this week.

It's impossible to determine just how many times guns are used in self defense. The estimates vary widely.

There are approximately two million defensive gun uses (DGU's) per year by law abiding citizens. That was one of the findings in a national survey conducted by Gary Kleck, a Florida State University criminologist in 1993. Prior to Dr. Kleck's survey, thirteen other surveys indicated a range of between 800,000 to 2.5 million DGU's annually. However these surveys each had their flaws which prompted Dr. Kleck to conduct his own study specifically tailored to estimate the number of DGU's annually.

Subsequent to Kleck's study, the Department of Justice sponsored a survey in 1994 titled, Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms (text, PDF). Using a smaller sample size than Kleck's, this survey estimated 1.5 million DGU's annually.

There is one study, the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS), which in 1993, estimated 108,000 DGU's annually. Why the huge discrepancy between this survey and fourteen others?

***snip***

Excerpted from ABCNEWS.com:

The political climate surrounding guns is so intense that studies have been done of studies that have been done about studies. Philip Cook, the director of Duke University's public policy institute, has examined the data behind the 108,000 and the 2.5 million figures and suspects the truth lies somewhere in between. "Many of the basic statistics about guns are in wide disagreement with each other depending on which source you go to," says Cook, a member of the apolitical National Consortium on Violence Research. "That's been a real puzzle to people who are trying to understand what's going on."
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html

[divideandconquer]

17. And how many times are guns used for bad things that aren't reported?

Domestic violence anyone? How many men use guns to threaten their family?

[Callisto32]

28. I find that statement sexist and offensive.

Women are just as likely to be the instigators of domestic violence as men. (At least, that is what I learned in college, can't remember the study(ies) that proved it, though).

[SteveM]

50. I think Texas A & M did a study which found 57% of dom. violence...

reported to LEOs were instigated by women.

[divideandconquer]

55. Women were afraid to call in because their men would threaten to shoot them

Sad, the part guns play in so many tragic relationships.

[SteveM]

61. Citations? Links? Facts to back up your "stuff?" No? Thanks. nt

[benEzra]

18. Holy news necromancy, Batman.

You did notice that this incident was beaten to death 6 months ago, yes?

And if "gun safety" is such an oxymoron, then how come fatal gun accidents are rarer than fatal bicycle accidents, given that the number of people who use them is comparable?

I've been injured several times by bikes and had a few reasonably serious close calls, and my daughter had to have two teeth reconstructed due to a Walmart bike (it's bike-shop bikes for our family from here on out). No gun accidents.

The rules of gun safety are actually quite simple, and if the instructor had followed the rules he was ostensibly teaching, the accident wouldn't have occurred:

(1) always treat a gun as if it is loaded;
(2) never point a gun in an unsafe direction;
(3) finger OFF the trigger until your sights are on target and you're ready to shoot;
(4) always be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

[Remmah2]

19. A day late and a dollar short.

Beating a dead horse. The original story came out in February. Follow the links on the Huffington site. When the story first broke it was discussed in this forum at length.

Instructor is a moron. A one of a kind isolated story. Guide book for instructors specifically states NO ammo in the classroom. Credentials should be pulled.

Then again the same rules should apply to the police:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1_EoRZOVes&feature=related

And since we're posting old stories:
cop murders 6 kids, then commits suicide
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gAWRcOYUtY&feature=related

[TheCowsCameHome]

20. Even after six months it's still kind of funny.

:rofl:

[Bold Lib]

21. How disgusting that someone finds an accidental shooting funny.

Shameful, just shameful.

[TheCowsCameHome]

24. "Disgusting" and "shameful" better describe the instructor's actions.

The students probably knew more than he did.

[Bold Lib]

34. I find the incident tragic and someone finding it funny disgusting.

Any such person finding humor in this incident really should seek professional help.

[TheCowsCameHome]

42. The one that needs professional help

is the stupid instructor.

[PavePusher]

46. If by "professional help", you mean 'mental health assistance'...

as that phrase is usally used to imply (in a derogatory sense), how so, and in what capacity?

[TheCowsCameHome]

47. You assumed that,

but alas, you are wrong.

[PavePusher]

48. And I invited you to explain, which you didn't.

I only have evidence to go by the common current usage of your phrasing. If you intended something else, please clarify. Thanks.

[TheCowsCameHome]

52. The instructor

Needs a professional (someone competent, who knows what they are doing, or how ever you care to phrase it) gun safety instructor to explain/review the basics of firearms handling, since he/she discharged a firearm into a student during a safety class. I damn sure wouldn't care to be sitting in the front row of that instructor's class.

My comments had nothing to do with mental health.

In the interest of fairness, have you questioned poster #34 about their usage of "professional help"?

I hope this clears it up.

[PavePusher]

53. Yes, thank you for the clarification.

No, I did not question that post, because it seems obvious that it was about a mental health issue. Actually taking joy in someone elses misfortune, where someone was needlessly injured, appears to me to be somewhat unhealthy. I admit that I could be wrong, and I might not be entirely unbiased. I'll think this one over a bit more.

[TheCowsCameHome]

57. I said

"kind of funny", in the sense that it was very ironic, given the guy was allegedly a certified safety instructor of some sort, and screwed up on the 101 part.

That other poster/analyst apparently wants to play Dear Abby, without bothering to look at the whole picture.

[Callisto32]

25. Non sequitur much?

Edit: REALLY gotta learn to proofread BEFORE hitting "post."

[Pavulon]

32. Meh. Break the 4 rules bad things happen..

has not shit to do with me or my legal rights to own a firearm. Move on, find a new cause. This one is done.

You should spend more time trying to reverse brown vs board, you actually have more chances of winning that one..

[PavePusher]

36. I accidently sliced myself with a kitchen knife once...

Does that prove that all "kitchen safety" is oxymoronic?

One data point does not make a trend, no matter how loudly you screech it.

[Euromutt]

39. We can learn that there hasn't been another such incident since

Because if there had been, Henigan would be citing it. Around 65,000 NRA-certified instructors, training who knows how many thousands of students without incident. But one of them fucks up and gun safety is supposedly an oxymoron.

[X_Digger]

40. Typical Brady-ism

Provide strong reason to believe that NRA instructors are safer than a majority of gun owners (including police and military), then claim that NRA instructors are unsafe.

[Pullo]

41. So, what is the public policy that the Brady Ca. is advocating to prevent such incedents???

Lets see.

Mandatory firearm safety training: Umm ... that really wouldn't prevent anything like this
Full cavity background checks for EVERY firearms purchase: wouldn't help.
Waiting period: nope, of no benefit to prevent other such incidents
1 gun a month: lets see .... no, that wouldn't help either
Etc. etc. etc.

Here's what we can learn: Dennis Henigan and the rest of the Brady Campaign have nothing constructive to contribute to public policy. They've been reduced to making incoherent rants here and there on blogs. Even their little Starbucks stunt ended in utter humiliation.

[slackmaster]

43. All kids should be taught basic gun safety in public school, at taxpayer expense

:argh:

[spin]

54. I agree. (n/t)

[RamboLiberal]

45. One incident from months ago

Proves "gun safety" is not an oxymoron. AD's that injure people are extremely rare in gun classes and in gun competitions because gun safety is highly stressed.

Most of us that use guns know this and so we are very vigilant about safety.

I've been shooting competition with handguns for over 10 years and haven't even seen anything close to an accident or even a negligent discharge.

The NRA instructor in this incident broke a very important safety rule. I imagine his certification will be pulled.

It's is a serious course to even be certified as an instructor or a range/safety officer.

Sorry, but a lot of journalists who write these stories know crap about guns. Most haven't even taken a basic course.

[SteveM]

51. Learn this: Brady Center is GOP-founded, GOP-led...

being kept alive by HuffPo and the declining ranks of MSM.



Got any other "incidents" to relate? No? Big conclusion ("...'gun safety' truly is an oxymoron") drawn from little data.

[divideandconquer]

56. Even more than the National Republicanrifle Association?

:rofl:

[PavePusher]

59. Lots of Dem NRA members.

Or do you evidence otherwise?

[SteveM]

60. Yep. Founded, funded, led. Anymore questions? No? Thanks. nt