"No Guns for Jews"

[PavePusher]

Powerful video (in five parts here) about gun control from the perspective of Judaism, now on Youtube.

Part 1 starts here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H-qOUmCrIU&feature=related

[Oneka]

1. The late Aaron Zelman

the driving force behind the Jews for the Preservation of Firearms, was one of the most well respected figures in firearms rights in the last
50 years. http://jpfo.org/articles-assd02/az-condolence.htm

[HankyDubs]

2. If the Brady campaign or any other group

supports a "no guns for jews" bill, you can count on me to oppose them.

That also goes for a "no guns for hispanics bill," "no guns for black people bill," "no guns for the Irish bill" etc etc etc.

Edit: unrecced for implied strawman.

[LAGC]

4. We get it. You're against discrimination.

But if it was "no guns for ANYONE but cops", that would be okay, right? So long as they aren't singling any other particular group out...

[Starboard Tack]

17. Why exclude cops? The UK doesn't

I really think it should be all or nothing if the goal is equality. Otherwise there will always be discrimination.

[MicaelS]

22. There are still special "Armed Police" units in the UK

Even with all their Gun Control, they aren't willing to completely disarm their police.

[Starboard Tack]

27. You are correct, but as you say they are "Special Armed Police"

Not regular beat cops, who do not want to be armed. There is much more of a sense of fair play in Britain between the "cops and robbers". Criminals prefer not to be armed with guns. They much prefer non-lethal weapons, as do the police. This also results in better community relations instead of an "us against them" mentality that tends to prevail here. British cops are civilians, first and foremost and not a paramilitary force.
Obviously, there are those criminals who don't play by the rules and specially armed units are activated. They are also used for special duties at airports and embassies where terrorist threats are more likely to occur. Overall it works pretty well.

You may find this interesting.

www.metfed.org.uk/support/.../1214552596Office%20Constable.pdf - Similar

[PavePusher]

30. "They much prefer non-lethal weapons..."

Huh? Knives, clubs, fists and boots, etc. are "non-lethal"?

I would go so far as to say there is no such thing as a "non-lethal weapon". There are weapons that can be employed in less-than-lethal ways, but that is no guarantee.

Note how many people have been killed with tazers...

[Starboard Tack]

33. OK far less lethal and much harder to use a knife, fist, club etc.

The police there are not supposed to kill, but use sufficient force to apprehend.
Between June 2001 and June 2007, there were at least 245 cases of deaths of subjects soon after having been shocked using Tasers. Of these cases:

* In 7 cases, medical examiners said Tasers were a cause or a contributing factor or could not be ruled out as a cause of death.
* In 16 cases coroners and other officials stated that a Taser was a secondary or contributory factor of death.
* In dozens of cases, coroners cited excited delirium as cause of death. Excited delirium has been questioned as a medical diagnosis.<60>
* Several deaths occurred as a result of injuries sustained in struggles. In a few of these cases head injury due to falling after being shocked contributed to later death. Some police departments, like that of Clearwater, Florida, have tried to eradicate such incidents by prohibiting taser use when the suspect is in danger of falling.

Not bad for a 6 year period.

[PavePusher]

38. People keep claiming they are harder to use.

By what standard? How so? Seeing as how gun violence is only 8% of violent crime, I'd say that claim is unsupportable from the start.

[Starboard Tack]

41. Try killing someone at a distance with a knife or fist.

Sticking a knife into another person is a lot more personal than pointing a gun from across the street or a passing car. How many drive by stabbings do you hear about?

[PavePusher]

46. Distance was not the criteria.

No-one claims you can stab someone from 50 feet away.

Come on, I know you can do better than to build such absurd strawmen.

[Starboard Tack]

47. Well let me ask you

If someone were to attack you, would you prefer they use a gun or their fists or a knife, regardless of whether you were armed or not?
Pick the one you fell you'd stand the best chance of defending yourself against.

[MicaelS]

31. Bad link..try again n/t

[Starboard Tack]

34. Try this

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=9&ved=0CFYQFjAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.metfed.org.uk%2Fsupport%2Fuploads%2F1214552596Office%2520Constable.pdf&rct=j&q=definition%20of%20police%20constable&ei=oizMTbuLNuPV0QHDudn0Bg&usg=AFQjCNFxpD-GXoregA5-peb4nk2Z2TFgCQ&sig2=cFWMbbx2B31SbDLGRrCsFA&cad=rja

[MicaelS]

36. OK that one worked n/t

[X_Digger]

32. I think you have a bit of a rosy outlook on criminals in the UK..

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5inDd8dV7Rf7d6xthbNzr9vQBjkXQ?docId=CNG.bfb8229dcf908f07a113483065bb30aa.2d1

Five-year-old injured in south London shooting

(AFP) – Mar 30, 2011

LONDON — A five-year-old girl and a man were seriously injured when they were accidentally shot in a battle between rival groups in London's Stockwell district, police said on Wednesday.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8503230/Man-dies-after-shooting-in-West-London.html

Man dies after shooting in West London
A man has died after a shooting in West London yesterday, police said.

More at the telegraph's crime section..

[Starboard Tack]

37. I never suggested it was crime free or gun free

but it's helluva lot better than here in terms of gun violence.

[X_Digger]

39. Did gun crime go down after gun control was implemented?

I mean, that would be the measure that best indicates that it worked, correct?

[Starboard Tack]

42. How many mass shootings since then?

Remember gun crime in the UK includes BB guns, toy guns, CO2 guns, fake guns, possessing ammo. So compared to the US, the numbers tally differently.

[X_Digger]

43. Here's one for you..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10214661

Cumbria shooting rampage suspect's 'body found'

Twelve people have been killed and 25 injured by a gunman who opened fire in west Cumbria.

[Starboard Tack]

44. I forgot about that nutjob

One guy responsible for half the gun murders. Bring in more guns and see how it gets reduced. More guns for more nutters. Brilliant. Why didn't I think of that. Shit, I just realized he could have thrown knives at those people.

[X_Digger]

45. But but but.. it was supposed to stop, right?

I mean, if you're going to hold up an already rare event as the litmus test, and one happens after corrective action.. surely the action wasn't enough, right?

*snort*

[Starboard Tack]

48. See post 70 - It's time to give up

[X_Digger]

49. ? There is no post #70. n/t

[Starboard Tack]

51. Oops! Wrong thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=414564&mesg_id=415710

[Euromutt]

58. Psst, "Dixon of Dock Green" has been off the air for 25 years

And by that time, it had been regarded as being hopelessly out of touch with reality for at least ten years. It's not a good basis for forming one's ideas about British police and criminals.

[Euromutt]

62. Whoops, my mistake: 35 years (n/t)

[HankyDubs]

23. nope

nice try though.

[PavePusher]

6. Strawman? I merely quoted the title, which has an element of historical accuracy.

I even used those nifty quotation marks.

Unlike some, I don't interject my personal biases into my quotes.

[HankyDubs]

24. oh you're so innocent

aren't ya. If you want to use the suffering of my people to support your personal gun agenda, at least be honest about it.

[MicaelS]

35. I'm very honest about it..

And IMLHO, the issue isn't with all Jews, just the ones outside Israel. Your brothers and sisters in Israel recognize and accept the need for being armed.

Considering the rampant Anti-Semitism in the US before WWII, I think many baby boomer, and later, American Jews are naive to the extreme to think nothing bad could ever happen to them here. But I guess that's a form of American Exceptionalism that's perfect acceptable, isn't it?

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PavePusher]

50. Never any overlap between disparate political groups. Ever. AmIright?

You sound like my six-year-old niece, who can't stand to have different foods touching on her plate.

Get. A. Grip.

Edit: P.S. Your obvious insinuation is extremely vile. Take it back to Freeperville, they're missing you.

[cleanhippie]

53. Bwahahahaha! Oh, FFS. That is being bookmarked.

:rofl:

If you want to use the suffering of my people to support your personal gun agenda


Fucking PRICELESS!

:rofl:

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kurska]

3. Gun control only hurts the vulnerable and the minority.

The people in power will always find a way to protect themselves (be it a race in Nazi Germany or the Wealthy elite who are the only ones who can get CC permits in some states). Even if you ban guns all together, the police rush to protect the wealth and the military steps in to power and privilege of ruling elite the world over. The poor can't afford 12 foot high gates, body guards and advanced security system. The best way for the urban poor to protect their family is a firearm, yet because of wrong unprogressive ideas they find the only ones armed in their communities to be the criminal and the cop, neither of which cares very much about them.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GreenStormCloud]

7. Are you a holocaust denier? N/T

[jpak]

13. No - I object to the stupid analogy NRA = holocaust victims

yup

[DWC]

14. Actually, NRA members of all political and religious affiliations

are NRA members because we refuse to be victims of Violent Force from any source, individually or as a society.

NRA = NO Victims, holocaust or otherwise.

Semper Fi,

[GreenStormCloud]

15. The author of that video was a Jew addressing other Jews.

NRA had nothing to do with it, although they would agree with the message. So since the speaker was a Jew, do you stand by your claim of pretended victimhood?

[rl6214]

26. Contrary to your warped imagination

not everything with guns has to do with the NRA

Get yourself some help

[DonP]

9. So soon after the April 19th anniversary! Bad puppy

Those silly, silly Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto didn't know they weren't supposed to have guns and fight back. They started with less than 10 handguns and held the Nazis off for weeks.

But you're right. No way those disarmed Jews were victims, or should be sensitive to "well meaning" non-Jews wanting them disarmed, right? It's for their own good I bet.

Thanks to a lot of people just like you some would take any firearms they had away again.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ileus]

8. K&R'd for an excellent link about a topic we all can understand.

[struggle4progress]

11. A shoah survivor I know told me: "It's wrong to own a gun." Many of her childhood friends

were shot into mass graves, by the Nazis who invaded her country

I can't pretend to speak with any authority here -- but disagreement seems to me part of a long theological tradition in Judaism, so I'd suspect there's no unanimity on a topic like gun control

[PavePusher]

16. With all respect for your friend, I do not understand...

how she can hold a belief so at odds with her own empirical reality.

That's the sort of belief system we accuse Conservatives of. This honestly baffles me.

[struggle4progress]

19. WWII has been discussed for decades, and we won't resolve the issues in a few paragraphs

on a chat board

It's easy enough to appeal to vague abstractions, such as "empirical reality," but much harder to wade through the history and to discern what an effective response in a particular time and place would have been

And it's easy enough to engage in second-guessing people, many decades later, and from thousands of miles away, without shedding any real light: if only this, if only that ...

[PavePusher]

21. Ummm, "empirical reality" =/= "vague abstractions". Just sayin'. n/t

[rrneck]

52. Harder still

to discern what an effective response will be. Limiting options under those circumstances would be unwise.

[Straw Man]

56. No, we obviously won't.

But the anecdote game is popular in this forum, so let's play. Here's a case:

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/revolt/bielski.html

It's not an "if only," it's a "this happened." Armed Jews saved themselves and others.

[Marengo]

18. Most likely, the majority of the firearms used to kill her friends

Were not privately owned by the Nazi murderers.* They were state property, provided by the state for use. Armies tend to be armed, even those maintained by nations that severely restrict or prohibit firearms ownership by private citizens. Unless she was advocating the disarmament of armed forces, I fail to see the logic of her position.

*An example of an exception would be sidearms purchased by officers. I have read, but not verified, that the majority of commissioned officers in the German armed forces were required to purchase their own sidearm from either a state or commercial source. However, this purchase was state authorized as the officer was a state actor.

[Oneka]

28. Here is a guy who " gets it"

Were not privately owned by the Nazi murderers.* They were state property, provided by the state for use. Armies tend to be armed, even those maintained by nations that severely restrict or prohibit firearms ownership by private citizens. Unless she was advocating the disarmament of armed forces, I fail to see the logic of her position.


Private firearm ownership is about much
more than personal defense against muggers/thugs.

Thank you for your post.

[Euromutt]

55. I think you're partly right on the sidearm point

Though your source might be a mite confused with 19th-century British officers, who were definitely required to purchase their sidearms out of pocket.

To the best of my understanding, German officers were authorized but not required to purchase their own sidearms. Generals and staff officers frequently preferred smaller, lighter pistols--like the Walther PP, Mauser HSc and Sauer 38H, chambered for 7.65mm (.32 ACP)--to the comparatively bulky standard-issue Walther P38.

[gejohnston]

59. I read where the German Air Force were issued the Mauser HSc

in .380

[Euromutt]

61. Quite a few compact pistols were available in both .32 and .380

The Mauser HSc, as you correctly mention, and the Walther PP and PPK. For non-German pistols, the same applied to the FN Browning 1910 and 1922, the Beretta M34 and M35 (chambered for .380 and .32, respectively, but otherwise identical), the CZ Vz.24 (.380) and Vz.27 (.32), the Hungarian Frommer M1912 "Stop" and FEMARU 37M... (Note that all these handguns except the Frommer Stop were pressed into service with German military and "security" forces at some juncture.)

I surmise the .32 ACP and .380 ACP generate comparable pressures, readily allowing a pistol designed to fire one to be redesigned to fire the other.

[DWC]

12. "No Guns For You"

Could be the title of this OP. I am saving the videos to favorites. Such atrocities are documented through out history. Such atrocities are still happening in the world. The 2nd amendment is our only assurance that it will not happen here.

- NEVER AGAIN -

Semper Fi,

[MicaelS]

20. I've read that some Jews have said

"What happened in Nazi Germany could NEVER happen in America." Therefore that is their basis for being in favor of gun control.

I guess they forget what happened BEFORE WWII when the US and Britain denied entrance to many Jews, and they went right back to Europe and eventually the Holocaust.

[Oneka]

29. Not to mention

Tactics change. Equipment changes. People don't.

Dictators and governments have killed, millions of their own, throughout history,it will happen again.

You're "whistling past the graveyard of history" if you think it can't
Happen here.

[Euromutt]

54. Funny coincidence, you mentioning that

I just started reading It Can't Happen Here by Sinclair Lewis. Published in 1935, set from 1936 onwards, and of course, the book is about how "it" does happen here.

[holdencaufield]

57. Excellent Documentary

Not only about how liberty can be lost but how it is facilitated by those who claim to "do good". That is why I am armed and I teach my child how to shoot. I would recommend any Jew do the same.

[spin]

60. Welcome to DU. (n/t)