Possible problem re: gun politics related...

[Axman]

For a while now, there have been some rumors floating around that someone is taking pictures of gun control activists in my area. I've dismissed it as nothing more than paranoia in the past... until last night.

I was at a local meeting where we discussed several things that we need to start doing on the state level here in Virginia. There were five of us in attendance. The meeting took place at a local library. As we left, a blonde haired lady wearing a white t-shirt took several pictures of the attendees as we left the meeting room. We confronted her about it and she shrugged saying that she was taking pictures of the bulletin board that had been behind us.

I talked to my friend who is a cop and asked him what we could do and he said we were basically SOL. I'm really worried now and I don't know what I can do. What would someone want these pictures for? I'm really scared that someone is putting a list together or something that might be used in physically harmful ways.

[Walter_Bowman]

1. People have taken pictures of anti-gun activists before...

...like the one of Schumer shooting his personal gun collection. :-)

I see no harm in it. I've never heard of any anti-gun activist getting physically attacked for his beliefs (pro-gun activists, that's a whole different story... ;-) ), but I suppose the pics could be used for "Black PR" purposes.

[MrBenchley]

12. What a pantload in every way

The photo of Schumer was at a demonstration showing what sort of guns ought to be banned...

As for the other claim...

"A federal prosecutor who headed a prominent gun control group in his spare time was shot in his home and died early Friday.
Thomas C. Wales, 49, died about 1:15 a.m. Friday at Harborview Medical Center. He had been shot in the neck and the side late Thursday, a hospital spokeswoman said.
Authorities believe Wales was targeted and was not a victim of random violence, police Capt. Brent Wingstrand said Friday. "

http://www.nctimes.net/news/2001/20011013/73641.html

[Romulus]

15. gee

it must be the gun owners that did it because they were so angry about his trigger-lock sale and handgun safety class campaign. :eyes:


It must not have been at all connected to any of the organized crime figures and thugs the guy prosecuted, nope, not at all. :eyes:

[MrBenchley]

20. Wow

Good thing the gun industrry made such a scrupuous effort to keep guns out of the hands of organized crime figures and thugs .....

wait a minute...the gun industry did all they could to keep sales to those markets open and unfettered...

[Walter_Bowman]

35. Yeah, organized crime figures will NEVER get guns

the same way they get hold of all those illegal drugs.

[MrBenchley]

53. Gee....

organized crime sounds like a pretty good description of the gun industry.

[demsrule4life]

16. Thomas C. Wales was an honest prosecutor

and a good guy. I don't think it was determined why he was shot. It was prob a contract killing and for this reason I doubt if it had anything to due with working with a gun control group.

[MrBenchley]

21. Surrrrrrrre....

And the Olin Foundation has nothing whatsoever to do with the gun industry...

[demsrule4life]

24. Note to self

To check the DU rules to see if there is a minium age requirement to post messages.

[CO Liberal]

27. There IS a Minimum IQ Requirement

Those that don't meet it usually end up over on FreeRepublic.....

:-)

[CO Liberal]

25. Found This Through Google

At this web site:

http://www.milton.edu/news/pages/TomCWales.asp

Title: Milton Graduate, Federal Prosecutor, Victim of Seattle Gun-Man

Date Posted: October 16, 2001


Thomas C. Wales ’70, a federal prosecutor and a member of the fraud unit in the U.S. attorney's office in Seattle since 1983, died on October 12 at Harborview Medical Center as a result of gun shot wounds to his neck and side. Tom specialized in the prosecution of banking and business crime. A gun-control activist, he was president of the board of Washington CeaseFire, a group working to end gun violence.

Tom's assailant apparently fired at least five shots through the basement window as Tom worked at a computer in the basement of his Queen Ann Hill home. Although no arrests have been made and officials say there are no new developments, law enforcement officials are saying that Tom was a victim of a calculated hit.

[CO Liberal]

26. And I Found This in the Google News Section

Looks like whoever did the deed had more than a casual acquaintance with guns - Wayne

Gun used to kill prosecutor is focus of massive search

By Steve Miletich
Seattle Times staff reporter

FBI agents are conducting an unusually sweeping search for a customized gun used in the killing of Seattle federal prosecutor Thomas Wales, according to the owner of a Minnesota arms company and sources familiar with the investigation.

The gun, an Eastern European-made semiautomatic pistol called a Makarov, had been fitted with a replacement barrel that leaves telltale marks on bullets. The search, one of the most laborious gun sweeps in FBI history, is taking place in all 50 states, as agents track down more than 3,500 barrels sold to gun owners and dealers.

Agents hope to tie the gun barrel to the killer. A Bellevue airline pilot has emerged as the lead suspect, according to court records, but no charges have been filed.

Wales, 49, who worked in the U.S. Attorney's Office in Seattle, was shot to death in his Queen Anne home late on Oct. 11, 2001, as he sat at a basement computer.

The Minnesota company, Federal Arms Corporation, received a federal grand-jury subpoena for the names of all customers who bought the custom gun barrels before Wales' death, company president and owner Tim Gow said yesterday.

<more>

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2001128276_wales17.html

[Man_in_the_Moon]

31. I am one of these people

The search, one of the most laborious gun sweeps in FBI history, is taking place in all 50 states, as agents track down more than 3,500 barrels sold to gun owners and dealers

I purchased a couple of replacement mak barrels a while back. I told the FBI to get a warrant and to talk to my lawyer in the future when they called and asked me about the barrels.

[Walter_Bowman]

36. Please point out

Where it says the hit was ordered/performed by an NRA member? :-)

[CO Liberal]

40. I Didn't Make That Leap, YOU DID, Walter

I just pointed out that whoever did it apparantly knew something about guns.

[Man_in_the_Moon]

41. Erm

apparantly knew something about guns

What makes you say this?

[CO Liberal]

42. Relatively Rare Gun .... Replacement Barrell ....

It just sounds like someone with more than a casual acquaitance with the field of guns. Possibly either a paid assassin or a gun enthusiast.....

[Man_in_the_Moon]

44. Not rare

I would put it more as a 'cheap' gun. Maks are very cheap, extremely cheap. BUt htere are thousands and thousands of Maks running around out there.

And the replacement barrel is also cheap, and the idea to use something like that could easily have come from watching an old rerun of Kojack, or Miami Vice, or Hill Street Blues, or whatever.

Nothing in either of those things suggest either a 'paid assassin or a gun enthusiast'.

[CO Liberal]

45. I Think They Do

We'll just have to see hoe this story unfolds......

[Man_in_the_Moon]

I dont though

I think they point more to a 'layman' (ie neither a assassin or gun enthusiast) trying to hide his/her tracks by using a cheap throw-away gun/barrel.

[Man_in_the_Moon]

46. I dont though

I think they point more to a 'layman' (ie neither a assassin or gun enthusiast) trying to hide his/her tracks by using a cheap throw-away gun/barrel.

[Cthulu_2004]

118. Makarovs? RARE?!?!?

Not quite.

They generally fall into the "best gun available for $100" category. There are 7 or 8 varieties floating around, and I'd think from 20,000 to 100,000+ per variety. Russian, East German, and Romanian Makarovs are very common. Chinese ones are rarer.

They're no more rare than Glocks are rare.

Now a Makarov with a Federal Arms replacement barrel, well, that's a bit more rare...because Federal hasn't sold that many barrels.

If this guy was a "professional" killer, I'm wondering why he'd pick a Makarov. They're underpowered and not that accurate, especially at any kind of distance.

[Walter_Bowman]

47. In that case,

what does it have to do with the topic?

[CO Liberal]

50. I Don't Know, Walter ... You Tell Me.....

YOU'RE the one who dragged the NRA into this thread, so what does it have to do with the topic?

[Walter_Bowman]

59. I used it as an example

replace with GOA, KABA, PinkPistols, JPFO etc. at will.

[jody]

110. CO any person who has been taught to disassemble, clean, and reassemble

a semi-automatic handgun like the Colt 1911 or the Beretta M9 which are standard military arms can replace a barrel. Moreover, many semi-automatic handguns have barrels that are as easily replaced as the 1911 and M9.

In fact, I believe any high school kid can take a disassembly-assembly schematic for cleaning that comes with a gun and replace the barrel if it is detachable.

I'll bet even gun-haters could do the job. On second thought, I might have gone a bit to far with that last boast. :evilgrin:

[Cthulu_2004]

138. The Makarov has a "fixed barrel"...

but it's easy to replace, you just need a drift punch or a small nail and a small hammer or screwdriver. Including disassembly and reassembly, it would take a competent user under 5 minutes to swap out the barrel without instructions. With instructions, it would be faster.

[556]

38. Explain..........

the smile on Schumers face when he's shooting the TEC-9?

[MrBenchley]

52. Explain

where you've seen the picture...and what lies were told there.

[CO Liberal]

68. Here's The Photo In Question

And a comment about it from the http://www.keepandbeararms.com/

"That photograph was taken in late April, early May 1994, just before the vote on the 'Assault Weapons' vote that was signed into law on 13 September 1994. The photo came from an NRA-sponsored range session in an effort to enlighten Legislators about the firearms they were considering banning." --Dean Speir, TheGunZone.com

<more>

http://www.keepandbeararms.com/newsarchives/XcNewsPlus.asp?cmd=view&articleid=1161

[Spoonman]

69. But,

I thought MrB said "The photo of Schumer was at a demonstration showing what sort of guns ought to be banned..."

Not at an NRA-sponsored range session in an effort to enlighten Legislators about the firearms they were considering banning.

Look at the shit-eating grin on his face and tell me he's disgusted by the whole experience!

Personally, I would refuse to admire such a hypocrite.

[MrBenchley]

142. Gee spoon

I pegged it exactly....

Meanwhile, hope everybody notes another gratuitous slam at a Democrat...of the sort you might expecct on far right wing discussion boards.

[Spoonman]

143. Try again

"hope everybody notes another gratuitous slam at a Democrat"

Cry me a river, that line is old, frail and demonstrates nothing relevant.

What, are you seeking sympathy by crying and sobbing about your own misquotes and misleading statements?

If your looking for sympathy, it's in the dictionary between shit and syphilis.

[MrBenchley]

144. Since you asked so nice

It's another gratuitous slam at a RESPECTED Democrat...and many of us here think it demonstrates something VERY relevant about the sort of person who throws them out every two minutes.

"If your looking for sympathy, it's in the dictionary between shit and syphilis."
Why would I be looking for sympathy from you, spoon? You've brought both of the other terms to the table.

[MrBenchley]

145. Since you asked so nice

It's another gratuitous slam at a RESPECTED Democrat...and many of us here think it demonstrates something VERY relevant about the sort of person who throws them out every two minutes.

"If your looking for sympathy, it's in the dictionary between shit and syphilis."
Why would I be looking for sympathy from you, spoon? You've brought both of the other terms to the table.

[Spoonman]

146. Respected.......(nt)

I honestly don't think you have generated any respect with some of your comments. Your broad sweeping comments have been offensive to several ethnic, racial and other groups.

RESPECTED Democrat? No, you may claim to be a democrat, you may vote democrat, but that alone does not make one a respected democrat.

"You've brought both of the other terms to the table"

I seem to recall a couple of post made by you in which you proclaimed your knowledge of shit.

[MrBenchley]

147. Schumer is a respected Democrat.

And yeah, considering the tedious shit the RKBA crowd tries to peddle over and over, I get to know the lies, evasions and distortions pretty well...

[Walter_Bowman]

48. IIRC Schumer owns at least one handgun

and engages in the shooting sports.

[MrBenchley]

51. Gee so I guess all those claims by RKBA "enthusiasts"

that Scchumer is anti-gun are just so much bullshit..

Really, who is surprised?

[Walter_Bowman]

62. "Guns for me, but not for thee"

the standard line of many corrupt gun controllers.

[MrBenchley]

72. Yeah, surrrrrrrrrrre....

Now show us where Schumer said he wouldn't obey any of the gun laws he's proposed....

[Walter_Bowman]

76. Laws like that

give preferential treatment to the influential and/or rich.

[MrBenchley]

78. Who are you trying to kid?

Hand us a big big laugh.

[Township75]

64. that federal prosecutor...

also was prosecuting mob bosses and it was believed it was they who made the hit

[Spoonman]

66. The photo of Schumer

The photo of Schumer was at a demonstration showing what sort of guns ought to be banned...

Prove it

[meegbear]

2. Bring a camera to the next meeting ...

if they do it, take their picture and use the same excuse they did.

[izzie]

3. I am a gun nub so I just sort of watch it all but....

The few times I have said anything I have been turned on by some gun nut. Maine and Alaska are two states that just love their guns. I even met a guy who kept a gun in his sock. Do not ask me. I knew an ex -.state police man in Alaska and he said his hair stood on end with what was found in some peoples homes. So as a non-gunowner and I guess women I think it is best not to get the gun owners up set. I also know people that have moved to Maine and now keep a loaded gun by their back door. That is really Keeping up with the Jones.Yes I did get laughing about that and was told it was for the wild animals and people who may break in. Since I lived a mile away for years and not one wild animal had tried to get into my home or any 'bad' people I found it pretty funny. I do find that I may not be as safe as I once was with ever nut in the state with a gun. If they can not control them selfs driving what will they do with guns?

[Walter_Bowman]

4. Keeping guns safe is so much more easier than driving without an accident

Car accident deaths: 41,000+ annually
Gun accident deaths: 600 annually

[MrBenchley]

5. Still peddling that phony statistic?

Nice to see RKBA horseshit is eternal.

[Walter_Bowman]

7. We where talking about accidents

now how many ACCIDENTAL gun deaths are out there? Exactly 600 per year.

[MrBenchley]

10. WHO was talking about accidents?

WE were talking about gun nuts trying to intimidate sane people.

[Walter_Bowman]

37. No, we were talking about people "unable to control cars"

Some are unable to control their keyboards...

[MrBenchley]

54. Yeah, we can tell...

In the middle of a discussion about gun nuts trying to intimidate sane people, some people suddenly start desperately spouting off about car accidents...

[CO Liberal]

56. "When Losing an Arguement, Change the Subject"

The standard MO of many pro-gunners.........

[Man_in_the_Moon]

57. And the

standard MO of many an anti-gunner is to toss about when they have no argument.

[MrBenchley]

58. Exactly so

Gun nuts are photographing sane people...er, look how many car accidents there are!

[Walter_Bowman]

61. I did not change the subject not lose the argument

I responded to post #3

[CO Liberal]

13. How Many Car Deaths Are Intentional?

And how many gun deaths are intentional?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm???

[MrBenchley]

17. B-b-b-b-b-ut

Wayne LaPierre cooked up that hooey personally!

[MrBenchley]

6. They are hoping to intimidate

since they cannnot persuade by logic.

Have courage! And I think the tactic of taking HER picture is a good one.

[Walter_Bowman]

8. If you're scared of having you picture taken...

...you need help.

[MrBenchley]

9. Gee, Walt...

Why don't YOU tell us why gun nuts would be taking those pictures.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrBenchley]

34. Been there, done that...

and it was hardly worth the effort.

[Walter_Bowman]

39. I explained other uses for the pictures [nt]

nt

[MrBenchley]

55. Yeah? Where?

Where you started talking about car accidents?

[Walter_Bowman]

60. Post #1 (nt)

nt

[CO Liberal]

63. Here's The Complete Text of Post #1

Subject - People have taken pictures of anti-gun activists before...

Message - ...like the one of Schumer shooting his personal gun collection.

I see no harm in it. I've never heard of any anti-gun activist getting physically attacked for his beliefs (pro-gun activists, that's a whole different story... ), but I suppose the pics could be used for "Black PR" purposes.

Would you care to show us where you were talking about car accidents in this message, Walter?

[Walter_Bowman]

65. I didn't say I was talking about car accidents in it.

I was talking about conceivable uses for the pics.

The car accidents were brought up in post 3.

[Spoonman]

70. Gee, MrBenchley...

Why don't you prove it was "gun nuts" that were taking those pictures.

[Cthulu_2004]

119. Better...

to be shot by a camera, than to be shot by a gun, yes?

If it's gun nuts taking the pictures, what's the problem? If they meant you harm, they wouldn't be using cameras, would they?

[CO Liberal]

14. If That's The Way You Feel, Walter .......

....why not post YOUR picture in a reply to this message???

[demsrule4life]

19. I wont post a pic of myself

But there is a few pics of me on my website www.geocities.com/newlandzoi I have to admit my dogs look better then I do

[Walter_Bowman]

32. My picture (NOTE: I DON'T NORMALLY DRESS LIKE THAT)

or allanea.tripod.com/boris5_s.JPG

[Spentastic]

18. O.K

If you're scared of giving the government information pertinent to the sales of firearms you need help.

[Walter_Bowman]

49. How so? (nt)

nt

[Romulus]

11. great

I left the Commonwealth last week for the state of MD (not my choice) thinking that when I return in few years the place would be the freedom-filled paradise it was when I left, and I see that people are already plotting to ruin the freedoms enjoyed by Virginians.

[-..__...]

22. If you're that worried about it...

I suggest carrying something in either .357 magnum, .40 or .45 ACP.

[MrBenchley]

23. It's RKBA "logic"

If you don't feel you need guns to protect yourself from criminals, then you'll need guns to protect yourself from RKBA "enthusiasts"...

[-..__...]

28. Sarcasm eludes you...

Doesn't it? Besides, so far it's only assumed that the incident is
gun control related.

[MrBenchley]

30. Is that what we call RKBA hooey now? Sarcasm?

A surprise to me...

[grit]

43. I was going to suggest that as well (w/o sarcasm) nt

[Axman]

29. Thank you all for your insight...

I'll start carrying my own camera with me. I think that is a very good start...

[Spoonman]

67. Hmmmm,

"I'm really scared that someone is putting a list together or something that might be used in physically harmful ways."

Kinda like a gun owners registration list?!

Now you understand why we don't want to be on a "list".

[AZTOY]

71. Spoonman

Sir, No one want to be on any "lists". I hope you see are side now.


But i agree with you . Some is not right about this and i would be scared.

[Spoonman]

73. Your correct,

but don't fail to see the irony in this.

To me, it's just like someone who protest the pollution caused by fossil fuels, and then goes out and buys an Excursion (8 mpg).

[jody]

74. Spoonman, thanks for pointing out the list comparision.

:thumbsup:

[MrBenchley]

75. Gee, spoon...

Guns pose a public danger...and the public has a right to expect that those having them be kept track of them...just as they do with cars, etc.

Care to tell us what the justification for nutcases harassing peaceful citizens is?

[Walter_Bowman]

77. How do you know the lady was a "nutcase"?

How do you know she was "harassing" them? Isn't harassment a crime?

[MrBenchley]

79. Gee, Walter

You're the one claiming there was a legitimate reason to photograph these people...

[Walter_Bowman]

80. Not necessarily legitimate

but not necessarily violent, either.

[MrBenchley]

84. And what would that be, Walter?

Tell us, please.

[556]

81. Yes there is a reason..............

"Know thy enemy".

[CO Liberal]

82. The Right-To-Lifers Did This

Remember that web site that had pictures of abortion providers and the families, including addresses?

[MrBenchley]

86. Yup

And I remember how names got crossed off, too....

[CO Liberal]

89. Within Hours Of Their Deaths, I Might Add

[MrBenchley]

85. Ah, the majesty of RKBA thought

never fails to impress....

[Cthulu_2004]

120. They'll probably post the pics at gun shows...

for security to keep an eye out for them. There have been cases where gun control people have done stupid things at gun shows.

[MrBenchley]

122. Yeah? What have they done?

Not take the white supremacist pamphlets? Made fun of the Nazi memorabilia? Not wear a confederate swastika t-shirt?

[Cthulu_2004]

130. does the name Robin Chan mean anything to you?

He's notorious for going into gunshows and causing damage. Maybe CO Liberal can elaborate...the guy does this in his neck of the woods.

[MrBenchley]

132. Too too funny....

Yes, he injured.....guns.

"01/06/2001 Aurora Police arrested Robin Chan after he allegedly tipped tables and broke guns at the Crossroads of the West Gun Show. Licensed antique gun dealer Bob Funk estimated Chan caused $1,200 damage to three of his guns. A gunshow coordinator reported that private sellers are turning out in numbers to sell guns of allkinds before March 31, when purchases from unlicensed gunshow dealers will require background checks. One dealer at the show phoned in a background check which resulted in the arrest of the would-be purchaser, who was wanted on drug charges in Arapahoe County. (Denver Post 01/07/2001)"

By the way, the same website probably describes what this nutcase wanted with the photos...

"Nov. 16. Denver. The web site of the Tyranny Response Team features Tom Mauser with a "Wanted: For Crimes Against American Civil Liberties. Mauser's took up the gun control cause after his son Daniel, 15, was shot and killed at Columbine in 1999. (Rocky Mt. News). "

http://www.coloradoceasefire.org/gunevents2001.htm

"Tyranny Response Team"....what a pile of horseshit.

[Cthulu_2004]

137. Was that illegal?

"The web site of the Tyranny Response Team features Tom Mauser with a "Wanted: For Crimes Against American Civil Liberties. Mauser's took up the gun control cause after his son Daniel, 15, was shot and killed at Columbine in 1999. (Rocky Mt. News). ""

If so, how? Would you care to explain the legal difference between what they did and what some people do with the "Wanted: International Terrorist" t-shirts with Bush's pictures on them? Sure, the ideology is different, but they're both public figures, and the same exact rules cover both cases.

[CO Liberal]

124. They'd Be Posted As Suggested Targets

Just like the abortion doctors on that Nuremburg web site.

[MrBenchley]

125. I think you've pegged it perfectly

and it would be no surprise.

[Cthulu_2004]

131. So...

rather than shoot them in person when they're there, you're suggesting that they'd take their picture, post it in public, and THEN shoot them?

Feeling a little paranoid? Seen gunmen hiding in shrubbery lately??? ;-)

[Spoonman]

83. Gee B

"just as they do with cars, etc."

WOW sort of simular to existing gun laws, some firearms are registered, cause it takes a special license to own them.

But I guess if we register guns, you know like cars, the police will be able to recover the same stagering 58% recovery average of stolen cars. Hmmm registration really helps that 58% remained "tracked".

And I guess the registration of those cars prevents the more than 17,000 killed every year in alcohol related crashes. One person dead every thirty minutes. One person injured almost every minute.

Since DWI resulting in a fatality is considered murder i.e.(vehicular homicide) in most states let's look at some numbers.

The FBI's Crime in the United States estimated that 66% of the 15,517 murders in 2000 were committed with firearms.

That would be 10,241 total committed with firearms.

I say we leave them unregistered and save 6,759 lives.

Yes, it's ridiculous, but so is the notion that gun registration will somehow prevent criminals from using them.

Care to tell us what the justification for nutcases harassing peaceful citizens is?

I'm a very peacful citizen, so whats the justification for nutcases harassing me?

[MrBenchley]

87. Spoon, tell us, please....

"I guess the registration of those cars prevents the more than 17,000 killed every year in alcohol related crashes."
Tell us how many crimes get solved every year thanks to license plate numbers and drivers license information.

Tell us what sane person thinks that America's roadways would be safer if cars had no plates and unlicensed drivers were allowed to get behind the wheel...

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrBenchley]

95. Horribly that says it all....

"who the hell cares if they get "solved"."

Wow...somedays the RKBA crowd reads like parodies of itself...you REALLY think it doesn't matter if crimes get solved, just as long as your fantasy world isn't intruded on?

[Spoonman]

98. Yes, "Horribly Stated"

Not only have you FAILED to answer the question. (Maybe it was an intentional evasion)
How would registration of firearms prevent murders?

You also try to spin my statement into a whole different meaning.
EVERYDAY the gun grabber crowd reads like paradies of itself......you REALLY do distort statements in attempts to validate your failing argument, while living in a fantasy world of solutions.

[MrBenchley]

101. Once again

what the hell does your question have to do with anything in the real world?

Laws against bank robbery often fail to prevent bank robberies...somehow I don't think the American Bankers Assocciation is going to demand they be repealed.

"You also try to spin my statement into a whole different meaning."
I didn't do any such thing.. All I did was quote it in all its epic wonder....and let me do so again: "who the hell cares if they get "solved"."

[Name removed]

127. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrBenchley]

88. By the way, spoon...

There's a post on LBN right this minute about another sniper on the loose, killing folks at convenience stores.

Don't suppose you'd like to go up there and spout some of this silliness about how guns ought not to be registered, would you?

[Spoonman]

91. By the way B

theres a bucket full of truth in front of you, so don't trip over it while you turn a blind eye to it.

[MrBenchley]

94. It's not truth in that bucket

but horseshit.

[556]

92. How would registration of stopped this?

In the amount of time this person took to kill these 3 people there is no way the police could have stopped him. Even further they don't have a weapon to trace back to a registry.

[MrBenchley]

93. Who are you trying to kid?

Go on up to LBN and tell the board that it wouldn't help if law enforcement knew who in the area has that gun...or who bought that ammo recently.

[Spoonman]

96. Indulge your own fantasy,

but read the article before you start peddling horseshit.

"Police have not identified the weapon or weapons used."

Yea the police would have that case solved real fast not knowing what type of weapon was used.

The bought ammo, you ever think it might be someone who reloads?

I guess you think if it was a .223 round it would have to be a bushmaster or AR-15?

[MrBenchley]

102. Funny

I notice you don't go near LBN...

You mean you don't think it would help for police to know who has the general class of guns in the area as a starting point? And don't discount the possibility that all the statement means is that police have not publicly identified it.

[556]

97. ONCE AGAIN!

WHAT GUN AND WHAT AMMO? THEY DON'T HAVE A GUN YET AND IT WILL TAKE THE LAB SOMETIME TO IDENTIFY THE TYPE OF AMMUNTION. EVEN THEN IT DOESN'T GUARANTEE THEY WILL KNOW WHAT TYPE OF FIREARM IT CAME FROM! I was going to say this in my last thread but held back but this time it needs to be said. PLEASE TRY TO THINK BEFORE YOU POST ANY MORE THOUGHTLESS IDEAS.

[Spoonman]

99. Wait a minute

your asking way too much.;-)

[AZTOY]

100. First thing

The cop must get the bullets out of the dead people. Then thay can find out want size it is.



Then thay can try to blame a evil black rifles.But this shotter is differt the the DC shooter . This guy is taking head shots.

[MrBenchley]

103. Gee, it's swell to see

that RKBA hysteria is evergreen.

[556]

104. Why can't you............

ever answer someone's question without repeating the same replies over and over. I swear you have 4 or 5 responses that you use for every post you respond to. I hope more people with your agenda are just like you. If that's the case we "gun nuts" with the crazy "RKBA hysteria" have nothing to worry about. Now if you have the heart why don't you tell us, like we've requested, how a registry could have stopped this?

[MrBenchley]

105. Because I keep encountering the same tired hooey

over and over again...including the "idea" that if there is ever a crime that RKBA enthusiasts can pretend could not have been PREVENTED by gun control (somehow only gun control laws have to prevent crime, not punish it after the fact), all gun control laws are forever invalid and should be repealed....

"I hope more people with your agenda are just like you."
Yeah, I can tell by the rage and screaming from the RKBA crowd.

"how a registry could have stopped this"
Cops identify type of gun, cops quiz gun owners, cops nab shooter before he shoots five or ten more people. Simple enough for you?

[556]

109. What do you mean?

The police don't even have the weapon yet and even if they did you can't go around and question everyone who has the same weapon this moron used to kill people. You have to have probable cause and having a copy of the weapon used for this particular crime in your home isn't enough to question anyone. Why don't you take away all of our rights while your at it.

[Name removed]

114. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AZTOY]

106. OK

Now if you have the heart why don't you tell us, like we've requested, how a registry could have stopped this?




It can't!!!!

There are 2 many "old" guns with no paper work.

[MrBenchley]

107. Little Sir Echo, How do you do?

Hello! Hello!

Cops identify type of gun, cops quiz gun owners, cops nab shooter before he shoots five or ten more people. Simple enough for you?

[AZTOY]

108. NO

NO

It not that easy and Moose got luck!! A true sniper would not get caught.

[MrBenchley]

113. And criminals are afraid of Batman's costume

"A true sniper would not get caught."
Another great victory for the RKBA crowd THAT would be, too.

[BullDozer]

111. Stop watching TV

Life is not CSI

Cops identify type of gun

Yeah great they can narrow it down to say every type of 30 caliber rifle with a 6 groove right hand twist barrel.. How big of any area will they be rounding up every Remington 30 caliber rifle in? I can only imagine how many 30-06 (only one of many possible 30 caliber rifle chamberings) rifles there are in West Virginia?


Or are you once again trying to pimp for ballistic fingerprinting, which in the two states that currently utilize it, has not resulted in even one single crime being solved?

[MrBenchley]

112. Gee, dozer

Thanks for playing "What's my RKBA fantasy.?

[BullDozer]

115. Who's dreaming here?

That would be you; with your little gun grabbing fantasy world you presented.
I pointed out a BIG problem with trying to identify a weapon and instead of addressing it you just try to label it as fantasy. That's so typical of you.


Tell us again how well the ballistic fingerprinting programs have worked in New York and Maryland.

[MrBenchley]

116. You are

But keep on pretending that there's a sane reason that law enforcement ought to be denied this valuable tool.

[BullDozer]

117. Yeah guess again bucko

But keep on pretending that there's a sane reason that law enforcement ought to be denied this valuable tool.

Because it doesn't work like you want to fool people into believing it will.

I'll ask AGAIN for you to tell us again how well the ballistic fingerprinting programs have worked in New York and Maryland. How about that glowing report on the technology done by the CA DOJ too?

[MrBenchley]

121. You can ask all you like

it's a preposterous question.

[BullDozer]

123. Go cry in your corner

You can ask all you like" it's a preposterous question.

Why is that because you don't like the answer to it?

Which is the systems in Maryland and New York aren't working as claimed and they haven't resulted in even one single crime being solved.

As for CA DOJs report it was quite negative and the best spin they could put on it was that further study should be done.

[MrBenchley]

126. Another "victory" for RKBA...the W VA sniper unhindered

"Which is the systems in Maryland and New York aren't working as claimed and they haven't resulted in even one single crime being solved. "
Tell us dozer. How many crimes in Maryland last year were solved using fingerprints? How many crimes in NY were solved using DNA evidence? How many crimes in the two states were solved using DMV registry information?

[BullDozer]

129. Juice

I'm making juice out of the oranges you left in argument against my apples.

How many crimes in Maryland last year were solved using fingerprints? How many crimes in NY were solved using DNA evidence? How many crimes in the two states were solved using DMV registry information?

Fingerprints:
I guess you missed seeing this thread about fingerprints a few days ago: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=2640 this is the article that is referenced in it http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/07/16/60minutes/main563607.shtml.

DNA:
Yeah OJ Simpson is a big fan of basing a case on DNA evidence.
DNA evidence is used to include or exclude individuals not identify them as the one. It doesn't work that way.
"In fact, DNA typing or profiling is not a genetic fingerprint, and to portray it as such is scientific fraud. Fingerprints are an individual characteristic; everyone's are unique; DNA profiles are not. DNA typing produces what is known as a random probability match-sometimes as high as one in several million or even billion, sometimes as low as one in dozens. As such it represents the probability of a match between a sample left at the crime scene and a suspect, not a definitive match itself. To pretend as some proponents seem to, that DNA profiling, this sci-crime wizardry, is infallible is a gross distortion of the truth." (Tainted Evidence John F. Kelly, Phillip K. Wearne)

DMV Registration:
OK as soon as victims of crimes can memorize the serial number of a gun (comparable to a cars license plate or VIN) as they are being victimized and report it to the police then maybe you can start over again with this fantasy. Otherwise you get the "It was a big scary gun" to compare with the "Red four door Ford" description given to the police.
Chief Moose did really well looking for that white van didn't he?

[MrBenchley]

133. It's yellow and it's liquid, but it's not juice...

Too funny....

"Yeah OJ Simpson is a big fan of basing a case on DNA evidence."
You know, there's nothinng keeping you guys from actually becoming Republicans....

[BullDozer]

134. Go ahead throw it away again

You know, there's nothinng keeping you guys from actually becoming Republicans....

Well I'll be happy to let everyone at the next Dean and the first Kucinich meetup that I go to that MrBenchley is more than willing to piss away votes.

Let me know when you get that ideological purity test instituted for the party since you seem to think you are the one who gets to decide who is pure enough and who is not.

[MrBenchley]

135. Hey

If you think the morons who run around at gun shows in T-shirts with confederate flags on them are going to vote Democratic, you're kidding yourself.

"at the next Dean and the first Kucinich meetup that I go to"
Be sure and tell them there that you think we ought to ape the Republican party and go after the Ted Nugent fan vote.

[BullDozer]

136. Remember this boast?

Remember you're the guy who on DU-One claimed that the gun issue is only worth a few hundred swing voters nation wide.

You just go ahead and keep on alienating those voters. I'm sure the party will be so proud of you for it.

[MrBenchley]

139. That's not what I said

What I said is that a big chunk of the gun nut crowd is also the "confederate swastika" and "let's blow up the women's health clinic" crowd and that they will never vote Democratic.. They love tough talking blowhards, not reason or America.

"You just go ahead and keep on alienating those voters. I'm sure the party will be so proud of you for it."
Gee, is that why you don't post those newsmax stories in the General Discussion or Editorials folder, dozer? Because you're so sure the rest of the party believes right wing propaganda and lies?

[BullDozer]

140. No switching

We aren't talking about the people who will vote Republican no matter what happens. There are some that if GW himself went to their house and set it on fire, burning it to the ground, would still vote for Republicans. The issue is the swing voters, those that shift back and forth. Some of those are the ones you are shoving over to the Republican side of the fence when they should be planting their feet in the Democratic pastures.

Those swing voters are the ones that you on boasted on DU-One were worth only a few hundred votes total nationwide. Are you going to deny you made a statement anything like that?

Get us access to the old forums and I'll be happy to brew up a nice big pot of coffee and find the post for you.

Remember you're the guy who on DU-One claimed that the gun issue is only worth a few hundred swing voters nation wide.

You just go ahead and keep on alienating those voters. I'm sure the party will be so proud of you for it.

Gee, is that why you don't post those newsmax stories in the General Discussion or Editorials folder, dozer?

Can you point to where I've posted from those sources out to me, let alone used them heavily as you seem to want to imply? I may have used one 3-4 months ago on DU-One, do try and find something more recent. That's the second time in as many days you've accused me of that and you haven't provided proof as of yet.

[Axman]

128. Ballistic Fingerprinting...

I've spoken to cops, scientists, and nearly a dozen specialists on ballistics. All of them agree, the fingerprinting idea is useless. It cannot work. Personally, I think the money that would be wasted on such an endeavor should be put to better use.

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

141. I've been lurking for a long while

After destroying this Ballistics Fingerprinting idea a few times already, but before I go there I would like to address Ballistic Fingerprinting as it related to the W VA 'sniper'.

For the police to have any prayer of using BF, they have to have at least a cartidge case or a recovered bullet (preferably the bullet) in decent condition. To my knowledge so far they have not recovered either. In addition the gun used would have to have been sold recently enough for the casing and bullet data to be on file. Most states do not require this from the manufacturers anyway.

A spent cartridge casing would be notoriously unreliable as a means to solidly link the fired case to a unique firearm. Reloaded or new brass, military or civilian brass, hard or soft brass will all affect the markings imparted onto the case from the chambering-firing-extraction-ejection process.

With regards to the bullet itself, it should be somewhat intact to make a reasonable effort to identify the firearms from whence it came. Considering the shooter in W VA is taking head shots, this tells me one of two things:

1. The shooter is using a heavy caliber that passes through the body of the target and leaves either straight from the path of flight or on an acute angle of departure from that path. This means the bullet could be found as far as 1/4 mile away from the victim, or exploded in a nearby brick wall. Good luck finding this.

2. If the shooter is using a .223 (5.56mm) weapon, good luck finding a bullet intact enough to tell investigators much more than the caliber of the projectile. A 55 grain 5.56mm bullet fired at nominal velocities will break apart within a few inches of travel in a heavier-than-air medium at ranges up to ~200 yards from a 20 inch barrel. This is why the police in DC were unable to tag the exact type of rifle being used in those crimes until the shooters were caught.

The biggest problems I have with BF as a whole is this:

1. 'signatures' left on the bullet/case change over time with use, much in the same way the cylender walls inside the engine of a car will change over time with use.

2. 'signatures' on the bulet/case on many models of firearms can be altered or changed relatively easily. The Makarov example earlier in the thread bears this out. The gun used was altered to mask the ballistic markings imparted on the bullet; the custom barrel could then be disposed of and the stock barrel replaced. Barrel sales are not regulated. With pistols, only the frame bears the serial number.

3. Has not solved a crime. BF has not once solved a crime where the firearm used had not already been recovered. That is to say, the only crimes BF solves are those where the firearm is recovered, and the ballistics matched to past unsolved crimes where a bullet sample was recovered. To espouse the beleif that BF could solve crimes as they happen is nothing more than idealistic dreaming.