Do we endanger our family's with our efforts to protect them?

[TX-RAT]

[Me Me Meme]

1. Read

"The World According to Garp". It's been a long time, but as I recall that was a central theme in the book.

[Pert_UK]

57. That's odd....

I've seen the film and read the book but don't remember that theme at all......it's been a while though, so I'll have to check.

P.

[Superfly]

2. Especially with regards to education

censoring things that you find offensive may leave your kids unprepared for the real world, increasing the possibility that they will get hurt.

[Columbia]

3. Yup

Do you know they've now banned games like Dodgeball in school because it's considered detrimental to self esteem?

[Superfly]

4. Yeah, we're raising generations of

allergy-prone, thin-skinned wimps.

Kids need to eat dirt, just to learn it's not all that tasty. They need to fall down and get hurt (not hurt-hurt, but hurt, like scrapes and bruises, etc). They need to run through fields of ragweed and get stung by bees. They need to be called names. They need to walk in on their parents during bow-chicka-bow-bow.

Parents should let their kids experience hurt in small doses so they know how to overcome when the folks aren't around anymore.

[Me Me Meme]

5. That's absurd!

I am SO glad my kids are grown! PC and psychobabble horseshit has destroyed our educational system.

Geez.. I was the fat slow kid who got targeted and trounced early in those sorts of games, but lasting scars? Gimmee a break...

[iverglas]

7. for christ's sake

Is there nothing that cannot be falsified for an agenda?

Dodgeball has been banned in some places BECAUSE KIDS GOT HURT. Physically hurt. Injured. Because that tends to happen when kids THROW THINGS AT ONE ANOTHER, that being the point of dodgeball.

Anybody remember the giant snowball? Making giant snowballs in the schoolyard is fun and games, until the teacher notices that there's a kid missing and the kid turns up under the snowball, almost suffocated to death ...

.

[Superfly]

8. Yeah! Kids should never get hurt

Let's put them in a padded room feed them a protein slurry and bathe them in 2700 Kelvin light while playing James Taylor music in the background. They will emerge in 18 years as well-adjusted adults.

[slackmaster]

9. Nobody was ever forced to play dodge ball where I went to school

Because I was small and not very strong. I can't recall anyone getting injured, but it did seem a bit rough to me at the time, but I played anyway. Playing dodge ball was never compulsory. Kids always had the option to play a different game. I played dodge ball because most of the other games were too sedate or boring.

We never got to play with giant snowballs when I was a kid. Snow was banned from San Diego.

:evilgrin:

[Superfly]

11. Yeah, these things hurt...

:eyes:

[Columbia]

12. Ah... such fond memories...

:bounce:

[Superfly]

15. I know, I can practically smell their

rubbery aroma and feel their sweet sting through the monitor.

[slackmaster]

20. The ones that hurt were kickballs or soccer balls with low air pressure

The balls in your illustration look like lightweight kiddie balls.

[Superfly]

22. The ones in the picture are those

low-pressure rubber kickballs with the "gator grip"-like texturing.

I remember one year in school they switched to foam balls, which resulted in more injuries from kids trying to really wing those light things.

[TX-RAT]

27. Ya bunch of Sissy's

When i was a kid we used gym towels rolled up and wrapped in athletic tape.

[Columbia]

28. I preferred volleyballs myself

:evilgrin:

[slackmaster]

30. those REALLY hurt when they're flat

I remember it well.

[-..__...]

36. That ain't nuthin!

When I was a kid, we used to play Buck Buck, on asphalt (anyone remember the old Bill Cosby skit with Fat Albert?). Of course we wern't supposed to, but there was no real effort by school authorities to stop us either.

Gym towels we used to soak in water first, wring it out, then snap it at each others more "sensitive area". :scared:

[Columbia]

10. Unsurprising

I've got news for you. People get HURT in life. People will ALWAYS get hurt in life. And children must learn that. Shielding them from this fact is not only unwise, it is DANGEROUS. Kids need to learn from these experiences and grow from them. Our society and species is well on its way to becoming like the Eloi in H.G. Wells' Time Machine. Keep trying to 'protect' our kids from these 'hurtful' experiences and we will one day become so tame and timid that we will be eaten by the Morlocks that will always roam the countryside for easy prey.

Additinally, dodgeball is something that is near and dear to my heart. You see, I was a fairly small, skinny kid back in the day, but I was quick and agile. I wasn't picked first for any sports, but I excelled at dodgeball. All those kids who were bigger than me were slow and were the first to be hit out, while I lasted, survived, and won. Dodgeball was my redeeming solace and now my children will never have the privilege of learning this important life lesson through it.

[iverglas]

18. life is just hell, ain't it?

At least, so anyone who hung around here long might come to believe.

Children do indeed get hurt in the normal course of life. And children do indeed need to take risks in order to develop.

What they don't really need is other kids, with the approval and encouragement of adults in authority, assaulting them.

We all know perfectly well that the theoretical point of dodgeball is to touch someone with a ball. We all know equally perfectly well that the point of dodgeball as she is played is very often to hurt someone with a ball.

Perhaps in the days of our youth, nobody ever tried to hurt anybody else with the dodgeball ball. And no bigger, older kid ever did it to a smaller, younger kid, that's for sure. No, there were no violent bullies in *our* schoolyards.

But y'know, life these days is hell.

Of course, I know what the correct approach would be. It would be to approve of the playing of dodgeball, and make a rule that anybody who hurts anybody else with the ball will be in big trouble. And that will surely both (a) stop any kid from attempting to hurt another kid with the ball, and (b) make any injury suffered by a kid struck by a ball magically disappear.

Actually, this is one of those things that I don't have a great big opinion on. I just kind of like to think that the best interests of children in schools are being looked out for by school authorities. And as in many other instances, I just don't assume that the authorities in question are evil members of some secret conspiracy to take away everything I hold dear.

.

[Columbia]

26. It is if you let it be

"We all know equally perfectly well that the point of dodgeball as she is played is very often to hurt someone with a ball."

I don't know what Dodgeball you played, but the balls we used make it quite difficult to intentionally hurt someone. Does it happen? Sure it does. Do any kids ever try to intentionally hurt another anyway? Probably. Do these kids need to learn that there are people out there who want to intentionally hurt them? Absolutely.

"Of course, I know what the correct approach would be. It would be to approve of the playing of dodgeball, and make a rule that anybody who hurts anybody else with the ball will be in big trouble. And that will surely both (a) stop any kid from attempting to hurt another kid with the ball, and (b) make any injury suffered by a kid struck by a ball magically disappear."

How would that stop a kid from doing either a or b? It would not at all. You will never make hurt go away and trying to is only going to make it harder on kids when they grow up and realize that the world is not the safe, sheltered place they were taught in school.

[iverglas]

33. lordy lordy lordy

Does it happen? Sure it does. Do any kids ever try to intentionally hurt another anyway? Probably. Do these kids need to learn that there are people out there who want to intentionally hurt them? Absolutely.

I do love a discussion in which everyone suffers from instant amnesia.

I already said:

Children do indeed get hurt in the normal course of life. And children do indeed need to take risks in order to develop.
What they don't really need is other kids, with the approval and encouragement of adults in authority, assaulting them.

... right there in that post you responded to. So your response was perfectly nonresponsive.

And gosh ... I wonder whether there must might be some way for kids "to learn that there are people out there who want to intentionally hurt them" other than by giving other kids permission to do it ...


Of course, I know what the correct approach would be. It would be to approve of the playing of dodgeball, and make a rule that anybody who hurts anybody else with the ball will be in big trouble. And that will surely both (a) stop any kid from attempting to hurt another kid with the ball, and (b) make any injury suffered by a kid struck by a ball magically disappear."

How would that stop a kid from doing either a or b? It would not at all.

Well fuckin' duh. What did you think my point was? Do I really have to include those little </sarcasm> directional signs for dummies?


You will never make hurt go away and trying to is only going to make it harder on kids when they grow up and realize that the world is not the safe, sheltered place they were taught in school.

Oddly enough, I just don't see much value in teaching children that it is acceptable for other people to hurt them, or try to hurt them; or any need to teach them that.

I even think there might be some value in teaching children that it is not acceptable to hurt, or try to hurt, other people.


I'm actually a big fan of games, and of children experiencing losing. I think it's very important to learn how to lose, and how *not* to let that affect one's self-esteem. And games are one of the best ways of doing that. I used to make a point of playing Rummoli with the kids of a friend of mine -- one of whom had a hell of a time with the whole losing/self-esteem thing -- precisely because of his problem. You learn: you lose -- so what? (My family played it every Saturday night -- it's got loads of room for both skill and chance, and adults can play it happily with children ... unlike Fish ... .) Kids need to learn how to deal with frustration and failure, and experiencing them in the small things gives them that chance.

But I'm able to distinguish between a game and a game that is a concealed opportunity for bullying. It isn't "a game" when you are the target; you aren't a player, you're prey. And no, I don't see the value in teaching any kid that s/he can be made prey and have no recourse. As it stands, lots of kids, more and more seriously these days than in our day, are made prey already, and are afraid to use the recourses available to them anyway, so I just don't see the value in actually setting them up by giving the official seal of approval to the activity that targets them.

And as usual, the "I'm all right Jack" kind of response -- I was a scrawny kid and dodgeball never did *me* any harm -- just doesn't impress me ... and is just a little discordant with the whole "liberal" way of looking at things. That being the way I like to imagine we look at things here.

.

[Columbia]

37. As usual, we disagree

I believe Dodgeball is a positive sport that teaches healthy competition, teamwork, and the reality of life.

You don't.

Let's move on.

[iverglas]

38. and as usual

someone has an opinion that s/he likes to trumpet, but feels no obligation to address anything that anyone else says about it.

I believe Dodgeball is a positive sport that teaches healthy competition, teamwork, and the reality of life.

Okay, and I believe the earth is flat.

And my opinion about the dimensions of the earth is just as good as yours, and I have no intention of acknowledging anything you might say about the matter.

One wonders why some people bother.

.

[Columbia]

40. Geez

I've already explained my position already. Get over it.

[iverglas]

42. like I care

I've already explained my position already. Get over it.

DISCOURSE consists of explaining one's position AND addressing other people's -- sincerely, honestly and in good faith.

I won't be holding my breath. I just wanted to offer this.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1033904,00.html

On top of that, Barbara added substantially to the pressure from his father to be a high achiever by creating a highly competitive family culture. All the children's games, be they tiddlywinks or baseball, were intensely competitive - an actual "family league table" was kept of performance in various pursuits.

Two guesses who that's about. And just look what came of all that.

Imagine; soccer games without score-keeping. I'm shocked and appalled. And it would never occur to me that a lot of children might sometimes like to have the opportunity to just PLAY without being judged ...

.

[Columbia]

53. And I do?

You make it sound like one of us is EVER going to change our minds about this. We aren't. I tried to leave well enough alone, but you continue to poke and prod. Enough!

[Me Me Meme]

43. Yes

"One wonders why some people bother."

Yes, one does.

[iverglas]

45. oh look

The discourse has been elevated.

Sincerity, honesty and good faith will now just abound.

.

[MrBenchley]

49. Not to mention

an exposition of the joys of pooping in the park, and why indoor plumbing withers the revolutionary spirit.

[Me Me Meme]

55. only in cases where there

was any spirit to begin with. You're safe.

[MrBenchley]

60. Gee, and yet I'm not the one

parroting idiotic right wing rubbish...or pretending shitting outdoors is fun.

[Superfly]

64. It actually can be quite enjoyable

I've enjoyed many private mornings in the backcountry (you wouldn't understand, they haven't had backcountry in NJ for about 200 years) on long backpacking trips, doing exactly that.

Funny book you should pick up some day: "How to Shit in the Woods". Last time I saw it was at REI about 2 years ago, but I'm sure you can find it on Amazon

[demsrule4life]

66. Yes nothing worse then being out in the woods for a

few days and trying to hold it in. Could be why some people have such a nasty disposition.

[Superfly]

65. Here's the book:

How to Shit in the Woods

[Me Me Meme]

44. Unreal

"What they don't really need is other kids, with the approval and encouragement of adults in authority, assaulting them."

Dodgeball=assault?

Absurd. Move on.

[iverglas]

46. I can play too

"Dodgeball=assault"

What a very strange thing to say. Do you wish to elaborate?

.

[MrBenchley]

13. Hilarious to see

who's now presuming to inform us what standards are required for "well adjusted adults"...especially since their main childish concern is that children are not "tough enough"...

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Superfly]

25. I see civility is in short supply, as usual.

[MrBenchley]

29. Really, fly?

I thought only thin skinned wimps cared about civility, and that well adjusted adults accepted emotional scarring, especially when they learned something about the real world.

[-..__...]

35. You're sort of correct.

Yes, I'm certain kids did get hurt playing dodgeball. I'm also certain that kids got hurt simply running around loose on the school playground too. If there's any one main reason why dodgeball (and any other life threatening playtime activity), was banned was because of lawsuits or the threat of one.

[CO Liberal]

16. I Know Dodgeball Was Detrimental To My Right Pinky

I was playing Dodgeball in gym class in 1964, when I was in 5th Grade. I reached out to catch the ball, and it bent back my pinky. It hurt like hell, but I sufferred through the rest of the school day.

When I got home, I showed it to my mother, who immediately took me to the family doctor. It turned out I had broken my pinky.

Forty years later, I still cannot move my right pinky as well as I can move my left.

[Superfly]

17. Any emotional scarring?

[CO Liberal]

19. I Think It Gave Me A Healthy Fear Of Fast-Moving Objects

But it's been years since I've played Dodgeball.

[Superfly]

21. If I were to play today...

I know my shoulder can't take it (I tore my rotator cuff, not playing dodgeball, but skiing).

[CO Liberal]

31. I Can't Do Much of Anything Physical Today

Because of my back injuries. I'm getting an epidural tomorrow to try to eliminate some of the pain in my neck, shoulders,and arms. Later this month, I'm having an IDET procedure done to try and repair the two herniated discs in my lower back.

Until further notice, the most strenuous activities I engage in involve the lovely Mrs. CO Liberal with the lights low......

:-)

[Columbia]

32. You're in luck!

Study finds frequent sex cuts cancer risk

CHICAGO, Illinois (AP) -- Contrary to some research, frequent sexual activity does not increase the risk of developing prostate cancer and might even reduce the danger, a study of nearly 30,000 men found.

Some previous studies have suggested that men who have frequent ejaculations -- whether through sex or masturbation -- might be more prone to prostate cancer. One theory is that lots of sex exposes men to various germs and viruses that somehow lead to prostate cancer.

The latest study should be "reassuring to those men who may be more active than others," said Dr. Durado Brooks, prostate cancer director for the American Cancer Society.

<more>

http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/04/07/cancer.ejaculations.ap/index.html

Enjoy! :toast:

[CO Liberal]

41. Woo-Hoo!!!

That's a pretty good argument to use against the occasional headache:

"But, honey - do you want me to die of cancer?"

:-)

[iverglas]

24. ah, the good old days

And when I was seven, I was playing on a play structure in a public park, and fell off it onto a concrete slab and broke my leg and spent the next three months imprisoned in a hospital bed under the brutal heel of a tyrant nun and her henchwoman nurse's aide. It pretty much changed my life forever, in pretty much the same way that the lives of people imprisoned for their beliefs, or of any other child subjected to abuse, are changed.

But damn, I guess it did me good.

I'm kind of glad to know that there is a little more attention paid to children's safety and well-being these days than there was back then, and that yes, the kind of thing that I was playing on can no longer be found in playgrounds. I don't actually think that any kid should have to suffer the pain and anxiety and misery, and loss of part of his or her life, that I did.

So yup, count me as somebody who was bitten by schoolyard game-playing in my childhood and now has ludophobia, a morbid fear of playing games ...

.

[-..__...]

34. Not nearly as bad as...

kids soccer games where no score is kept (wouldn't want to hurt the little tykes self esteem or foster competitiveness).

[MrBenchley]

39. Really?

How does that harm the kids?

[Me Me Meme]

47. Because

competition is good. It's invigorating, presents challenges, sharpens the wits, brings the blood up, etc. Learning to persevere through loss and be gracious in victory are important life lessons.

Self esteem is a good thing. Earning it is even better. And that's very.....well, it's sounds corny as hell to say it, but it's true...American.

[MrBenchley]

50. Too TOO funny...

"competition is good."
So is having fun and acquiring skills. Especially for th every young.

"Self esteem is a good thing. Earning it is even better. And that's very.....well, it's sounds corny as hell to say it, but it's true...American."
Of course you were also trying to pretend crapping in the woods was the height of virtue.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[-..__...]

48. Where did I mention "harm" in that post?

For that matter, neither did Columbia.

Columbia's post...

"Do you know they've now banned games like Dodgeball in school because it's considered detrimental to self esteem"?

My response...

"kids soccer games where no score is kept (wouldn't want to hurt the little tykes self esteem or foster competitiveness)."

I see no mention of harm being caused (I'm assuming by "harm" you mean in a physical context?). If you meant psychologically, what is the harm in keeping score?

I see it as another example of political correctness run amok.

[MrBenchley]

51. So you said it was bad because it was good...uh HUH

"I see it as another example of political correctness run amok."
Jeeze, wouldn't want any of that political correctness now, would we? Next thing you know, kids might not grow up knowing how to insult people of other races, creeds or cultures.

[Me Me Meme]

56. How about

they just limit themselves to insulting other Democrats because they own guns? That's MUCH better, isn't it?

[MrBenchley]

61. Gee, which Democrats would that be?

The ones that spout right wing gibberish? The ones who announced they'd never vote for any Democrats? The ones who link to shit like Newsmax?

[demsrule4life]

59. Or people from other states

[MrBenchley]

62. States where progressive people live?

Or right wing shitholes like Alabama...where ignorance and bigotry are on public display.

[demsrule4life]

63. I see you learned your lesson well

since you are so full of "PC"

[MrBenchley]

67. I learned that the people who bitch about PC

are generally racist shitheels moaning because their open bigotry is no longer fashionable...

Funny thing, too, they're usually the first to pretend white males are being "discriminated" against.

See David Horowitz or any of those other right wing loonies at sites the RKBA crowd is so fond of posting links to.

[Superfly]

68. Suggestion:

When you get up in the AM, try taking a cup of green tea (without caffeine). It works to improve a bad mood.

[MrBenchley]

73. Gee, thanks, fly....

But I'm having a big old laugh in the morning reading the rubbish the RKBA crowd peddles...

[Superfly]

75. SOunds more like you're having a

big old rage...nothing out of the ordinary, tho.

[MrBenchley]

77. Not me, fly...

I'm laughing my ass off.

[Superfly]

79. Yeah...this bit of tripe sounds like a healthy guffaw

"...are generally racist shitheels moaning because their open bigotry is no longer fashionable..."

Nice sense of humor you have there.

[MrBenchley]

80. Thanks...

I think racists are ludicrous idiots...

[Superfly]

81. Likewise, and I am sure you have them

in NJ, too. I do know we have them here in VA...

[demsrule4life]

69. Why dont you take post 62

and put it up on GD, let's see what everyone has to say.

[MrBenchley]

74. Gee, dems...

You know very well there's a rule against that...

But even if you didn't, do you really think that anybody in GD would say that the ranting of right wing asswipes like Horowitz and Coulter about "political correctness" isn't just them bitching because casual racism isn't allowed in polite society?

Who was the liberal columnist (Herbert? Ivins?) who noted that the most distasteful thing about brain-dead Reagan's misadministration and the rise of the "New Right" was that it had become fashionable for some people to tell "coon" and "kike" jokes out loud at party's. You might recall James Watt came to some grief for doing that where sane people could hear him.

[iverglas]

70. the funny thing is

I'm about as progressive as they come. (And I use "progressive" in what is apparently an older, foreign sense, not what I gather it means in the US these days. Much better than the wishy-washy unreliable "liberal".)

And I live in Ontario.

And for a decade starting in the early 90s, Ontario was a right-wing cesspool. It was governed by the right-wing Tories who were twice elected with majorities. Somebody had to be voting for them, although of course it sure wasn't me.

And it sure wouldn't have bothered me if Benchley or anyone else in the world had called Ontario exactly what it was: a right-wing cesspool.

Kinda like Alberta still is ...

.

[Superfly]

71. Alberta is drop-dead-beautiful...

despite the apparent political climate there, points west of Calgary are some of the most beautiful places on the earth. If only my wife could handle the cold a little better, I'd live in Montana, which neighbors Alberta, as I'm sure you know.

[MrBenchley]

76. The even funnier thing is

New Jersey is a battleground where Democrats are winning. We've got the governor and both Senators, we've got a majority in the House delegation AND we just took control of both houses of the legislature.

But some people seem to put their childish gun fetish and the attendant fantasies ahead of everything else.

[Superfly]

78. And the even FUNNIER thing is

you are the only person talking about guns in a thread that doesn't even address them.

[MrBenchley]

82. That's so pweshus, fly...

You mean you think that Iverglas has forgotten all the posts you and dems have put up moaning about New Jersey because we aren't trigger-happy enough to suit you?

[-..__...]

84. And from what I posted you spin it into this...

"kids might not grow up knowing how to insult people of other races, creeds or cultures" :eyes:. Quite frankly, while I find your "persona" amusing at times, this "racist" angle has been way overplayed. You need to find some new nmaterial.

[MrBenchley]

85. Gee, you're the one railing against "political correctness"

not me...

[iverglas]

52. funny

I see it as another example of political correctness run amok.

I see it as an example of offering options, so that kids have choices.

One can only imagine, with difficulty at that, why someone would go to the bother of complaining about something as innocuous as this. I mean, unless s/he thought there was some harm in it ...

Did I miss something? Has the keeping of scores in kids' soccer games been banned?

If not -- as I really must assume it hasn't -- what on earth is your problem? Everybody oughta be required to do everything the way you think it oughta be done -- is that it? I have to assume that is exactly what you think, since you apparently think that scoreless soccer should NOT be played by children.

What can possibly be wrong, in the mind of anyone making these ludicrous comments, with the idea of children playing for the sake of play?

Perhaps it's the fear that they won't grow up to be good Republicans.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1033904,00.html

I really just can't think of any other explanation for anyone being so distressed by children doing something that doesn't involve winning and losing. A whole lot of life has nothing to do with winning or losing. I suppose the idea of too many people grasping that notion and taking it to heart is a pretty scary one in some quarters.

.

[slackmaster]

6. Our family's _what_?

:shrug:

[Pert_UK]

58. Heh heh...the grammar police beat me to it!

:evilgrin:

P.

[TX-RAT]

72. Thanks for the correction

I failed to include lives, but after seeing the directions this thread was going i choose to leave it alone. Sorry my fault.

[slackmaster]

83. OK, let me answer your question

Do we endanger our family's lives with our efforts to protect them?

When I was raising a family I provided them with food, clothing, shelter, and transportation. I made sure they always wore seat belts. I didn't allow my stepson to play on the freeway. My wife and I checked out the people he played with to make sure he was safe. I kept a term life insurance policy to protect them in case I died unexpectedly.

No, I did not endanger the lives of my family through my efforts to protect them. I'm proud of my record as a family man.