Question about the right to search a vehicle . . .

[TeeYiYi]

. . . stemming strictly from curiosity. (I'm watching COPS.:))

So, if a cop asks, "Do I have permission to search your vehicle?", after saying he smells pot. What is the answer? Can he search anyway?

Even if he doesn't smell pot but he just wants to look around. What is the answer?

I've heard in the past that you can say no, and they can't search. Are people giving up their civil rights by saying it's OK?

Has all of this changed since the Patriot Act changed?

Thanks.

TYY

On Edit: Changed "Do I have the right to search your vehicle?" to "Do I have permission to search your vehicle?". Thanks smada.

[troublemaker]

1. Under a very recent Supreme Court decision

they can search any damn thing they want, including the trunk! No probable cause required. Sad but true.

[zuzu98]

4. recent SC decision?

troublemaker, do you have a cite?

[punpirate]

20. As for odor...

... I think this decision applies:

http://www.hsmv.state.fl.us/Bulletins/May02.html

As for warrantless searches of vehicles, it was a Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals ruling issued in March, rather than a Supreme Court ruling, so it applies only (for now) in those jurisdictions coming under U.S. Fifth Circuit (Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi):

http://www.laaclu.org/News/2004/March26PoliceSweeps.htm

But, prosecutors everywhere will certainly cite that ruling as persuasive in cases outside the Fifth Circuit. Since that ruling depends upon the investigating officer's perception of potential harm, it will certainly apply to automobile cases, as well.

Cheers.

[TeeYiYi]

23. Well, that definitely clears it up . . .

. . . thanks punpirate for doing the research. :hi:

TYY

[TeeYiYi]

14. Thanks TM . . .

. . . see post #9. Let me know what you think.

TYY

[Tamiati]

35. On record

I may be wrong on this one, but I think that if you say "NO, I do not allow this"....in some states it still can be used as a defense.....

Check NORML.org....I think (ok, I know) they have further information of links for anyone interested. Heck, if I were on my computer instead of this one I could get the links myself for you....alas

NOTE: Maybe that's just if it's like a HP, or city cop.....I'm not sure on the Feds ....

[Jack_DeLeon]

37. its not so much that its a "defense," its the fact...

that if they did an illegal search, i.e. a search without a warrent, without probable cause, and without your permission, then the evidence can bet thrown out.

If the evidence gets thrown out then they will either have to dismiss the case or hope that they have plenty of other good evidence against you.

[Lucky Luciano]

2. You are indeed giving up your civil rights

by allowing a search. Always say no and be respectful no matter what. I very rarely have drugs around me anymore because I have already "been there and done that," but even if I get stopped and a cop wants to search me, I will always tells him no. I would do it as a way to become more informed of their procedures just in case some day I do happen to have contraband.

[TeeYiYi]

5. I understand what you're saying . . .

. . . by the way, thanks to both of you for responding so quickly.

But to you Lucky, I've been there, done that also. Like you, I no longer have anything to hide and it's highly unlikely I'd ever find myself in the situation to be asked about a search. The past is a different story. :7

I thought they had to have a warrant to search. Is that true? Was it true once and has it changed now? No warrants necessary anymore?

TYY

[TeeYiYi]

27. Lucky, be sure to check out . . .

. . . post #25 from DoNotRefill.

TYY

[Lucky Luciano]

29. Thanks for the heads-up.

I think that is how I would generally behave, but it is nice to see someone else say it!

[Momof1]

3. A situation was just in my local paper

The state police pulled over a car on the interstate because of headlights or tail ligts being out. The cops had a dog with them, the dog showed signs of drugs being in the car.

The cops called for a Search Warrant that was approved in less that 10 mins.

They found a pound of cocaine & $5,000 bucks.

I am assuming that the cops asked permission first and were denied. So they had to call for the search warrant.

Don't know if this helps with your question though:shrug:

[TeeYiYi]

6. That does help! . . .

It tells me that they couldn't search based solely on the lights being out. Thanks Momof1.:thumbsup:

TYY

[smada]

7. First of all

I don't think you'll ever hear a cop asking someone he's pulled over "Do I have the right to search your car?" That makes him subordinate to the 'suspect', something a cop is never going to do. The suspect would likely be thinking, "You're the cop, don't you know whether or not you have the right?"

What he'll ask is "Do I have your permission to search the car?"

Then, if you say no, he can detain you while he tries to get a search warrant, if he thinks there's some merit to searching your car. If not, he'll probably decide his time will be better spent elsewhere and let you go.

Secondly, for the person who stated there's a "recent Supreme Court decision" allowing cops to search your car carte blanch, please either post a cite or stop spreading propaganda and fearmongering.

[TeeYiYi]

10. Actually smada . . .

. . . I just heard that very thing on COPS. :)

The cop pulled the kid over for running a stop sign. The kid rolls down the window. The cop says, "I'm getting the munchies just smelling your car." The cop asks him, "How much pot is in your car?". The kid says "Just this" and hands him a roach out of the ashtray. After a little back and forth with driver's license, etc., the cop asks, "Do I have permission to search your vehicle?". The kid says, "Yes.". The two kids get out of the car and sit on the lawn. The cop searches and finds the kid's stash. The kid gets a ticket for running the sign, being in posession of less than an ounce and driving under the influence of drugs.

TYY

[Jack_DeLeon]

33. I saw that episode too.

they showed it the other night. I was also curious about it.

I've been told that its good to never consent to a search, but if a cop saw anything illegal (or smelled drugs) that, that would give him probable cause to do a search anyways.

I figured that the cop was just asking so that if he answered "yes you can search my car," that there wouldnt be any possibility that a lawyer could get the evidence dismissed in court.

Anyways if a police officer ever asks for permission to search just say no.

[TX-RAT]

39. Officer could have searched on smell alone.

[CO Liberal]

48. In That Case, The Smell is "Probable Cause", Right???

Just trying to get a handle on this.

[TeeYiYi]

11. Nevermind. ;-)

You're right. I just checked. I worded it wrong in the initial post. Oops. :)

TYY

[TeeYiYi]

12. Thanks smada. I hope you're right. . .

. . . my concern is that the Patriot Act may have changed all that.

re:"Then, if you say no, he can detain you while he tries to get a search warrant, if he thinks there's some merit to searching your car. If not, he'll probably decide his time will be better spent elsewhere and let you go."

I think when people who know they have drugs in their car say it's OK to search, they're hedging their bets. Hoping that by saying yes, the cop will change his mind or do a less thorough search. They're taking a gamble that he won't find what they have hidden, knowing that if the cop were to get a warrant, they'd find it for sure.

Hopefully all is as you've stated. My concern is that, as a result of the Patriot Act, cops CAN search your car without a warrant. I don't know the answer.

TYY

[smada]

16. Don't hedge your bet

If you tell a cop he can search your car, he WILL search the car, 100% of the time. If you have anything in the car you don't want him to find, say no. If you want to hedge your bet, hedge the bet that he won't go through the trouble of getting a search warrant.

[TeeYiYi]

18. Thanks smada . . .

. . . I think that's good advice. Boy the world has really changed. When I was younger, you wouldn't believe the shit I used to get away with. Cops were actually tolerable at one time.

TYY

[Warpy]

8. People are giving up their civil rights by saying it's OK, but

As a practical matter, the cop can either say he smelled dope and then plant some (yes, they still do that) or arrest you and tell his superiors that you resisted arrest or failed a field sobriety test or whatever. Once you have been arrested and Mirandized, he has the right to search you and your car without a warrant. If you've got a nice ride, he can use the former excuse and impound it.

The drug war muddled your rights more than the Patriot {sic} Act did, giving the cops the right to search anything they suspect of containing/concealing dope. They have the right to seize your property if they suspect it has been used to conceal or transport dope and then to sell it out from under you, even if they find nothing, never even charge you with a crime, let alone get a conviction. This has been quite a racket in some towns in the US, most notoriously along I-10 in Lousiana. If you want your property back, you have to post a bond of several hundred dollars before you can petition them for its return.

The fourth amendment, which protected our rights to our property from "unreasonable" search and seizure, has been trashed by the drug war.

So anybody who tells a cop to get a warrant if he wants to search risks being arrested and given bogus charges, or having dope planted in his car and his car seized. In either case, his civil rights will not be respected, and he has no recourse. That's why they give permission, even if they know they've got a nono in the car. They just hope the cop either doesn't bother to search or doesn't find the nono when he does.

[TeeYiYi]

13. Hmmm. Thanks Warpy. . .

After watching FRONTLINE 'Pleas' the other night, I have no doubt that this country is waging war on the poor. I know that cops plant evidence, kick out tail lights and just about anything else they need to to fuck with some people. :(

Short of planting evidence, if you had a tail light out and refused permission for a search, how would the cop proceed if he thought you had dope?

TYY

[smada]

17. I agree

I don't know all the ins and outs of the Patriot Act, but people aren't nearly as upset about the War on Drugs when it's been far more insidious and harmful to civil rights than the Patriot Act is likely to be.

Because of the WOD, you can now find yourself subject to a no knock raid on your house based on an informant's tip (regardless of whether or not he's telling the truth), and hope you're not unlucky like John Adams of Nashville, TN, who was shot and killed by the police who had raided the wrong house.

You can also have any cash or property seized if the police think it's from the gain of drug sales or has been used to transport drugs. Seizure is immediate and automatic and you must prove your innocence, a process that can cost thousands and take years, rather than the police having to prove you guilty.

Now, what was someone saying about the Patriot Act eroding our rights?

[TeeYiYi]

22. I think that the Patriot Act has . . .

. . . eroded rights also. Like you, I don't know all of the ins and outs but I have no doubt that it made things worse re: civil rights.

What you're saying is that rights regarding search and seizure went bye bye long ago due to the WOD. I tend to agree with you. My brother got one of those no knock searchs in the middle of the night with dogs based on an informant. It's a terrible story and it didn't have a good ending but he and his family are still alive and that is the good thing. He and his wife were buck naked at 3am when it happened. They searched high and low, inside and out for hours based on a paid informant who made friends with my brother. After several hours they still hadn't found anything. Finally they found his personal stash which was less than an ounce. As a result, they confiscated everything in his house including silver bars and gold bars, coin collections from childhood, his car, truck, etc. And the article they wrote in the local paper . . . what a joke. You'd have thought they had really done the local citizenry a favor. The headline read, "The Case of the Crafty Carpenter" because they finally located his personal stash hidden in a wall. *lol* Gawd. My brother no longer lives in that town or even in that state. Can't blame him.

TYY

[Lucky Luciano]

19. and people wonder why cops get murdered?

"They have the right to seize your property if they suspect it has been used to conceal or transport dope and then to sell it out from under you, even if they find nothing, never even charge you with a crime, let alone get a conviction."


Whew......I would blow my Lucky Luciano stack if some uneducated prickface cop stole my car unjustifiably.

[TX-RAT]

40. Bull shit

Your assumption that all LEO is corrupt, is laughable. Prove It.

[Mad As Hell]

9. They still need a warrant

Always say no. I think that Supreme Court decision was about whether they could arrest all the passengers in the car if the driver denied the drugs were his and the answer was yes, they could arrest everyone in the car.

[TeeYiYi]

15. Thanks MAH . . .

I'll ask you the same question:

Short of planting evidence, if you had a tail light out and refused permission for a search, how would the cop proceed if he thought you had dope?

TYY

[The Flaming Red Head]

21. Can I answer this one?

Before or after he drug out of your car by your neck and slammed your head a few times on the door on the way out?

You have no rights, you just think you do. And yes I would object, but I would know that there is a strong possiblity that I would be injured in the process and being the dumb normal citizen that I am, no one would take up for me, or defend me against the police, least of all the courts.

We live a police state, sorry.

[TeeYiYi]

24. Sounds like you may have . . .

. . . first hand experience.

Actually, Warpy already made clear that we have no rights and that the cops would just plant the evidence. See post #8.

My question was assuming that everything was on the up and up. After pulling you over and kicking out your tail lights to explain the pull over, would the cop have the LEGAL right to search your vehicle based on just the tail lights being out?

TYY

[SupportRapeVictims]

31. Three instances they don't need a warrant

1. Probable cause (Probable does not mean possible and they do have to write a probable cause statement)

2. Search for weapons if you hid something (Only in the immediate vicinity of the person. Called a furtive search)

3. Incident to arrest (Must be germane, but I may be wrong. Hard to justify search for speeding. If arrest was for DWI and they impound the car, then it's allowed).

[DoNotRefill]

46. Don't forget "Occifer Safety"....

you don't have to make a furtive move.

BTW, at least here, as soon as the cop pulls out and cuts on his lights, and you START to pull over, you're under arrest. The moment you show a single sign of submitting to the Occifer's authori-TAY, at THAT moment, you're arrested.

[DoNotRefill]

25. OK, folks, here's the REAL skinny.

***DISCLAIMER: UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD YOU READ WHAT I'VE WRITTEN, MUCH LESS DO WHAT I SUGGEST. TALK TO AN ATTORNEY LICENSED TO PRACTICE IN YOUR STATE IF YOU HAVE QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT TO DO IN THIS SITUATION.***


Cops can't single you out and stop you unless they have probable cause to think that a crime has been committed. PC is a "reasonable, articulable suspicion that a crime has been committed, and that a person or persons in the car committed it." Now, they CAN stop you WITHOUT PC IF AND ONLY IF they're stopping everybody, say, like a license or seatbelt check. Once they come up to your car with PC for the stop, anything they see or smell CAN be used to build up probable cause for them to take further action.

For example: They stop you for a taillight that's out. When the cop approaches the car, he smells booze or pot. He can act on the booze or pot, even though he had no PC for those crimes when he stopped you. Cops will ALWAYS ask to search your car if they're looking to roust you, and you should ALWAYS REFUSE. EVERY TIME. NO MATTER WHAT. Why? Because once you give permission to search, they can and will search (legally), and such searches aren't necessarily just running their hands under your seat and opening the trunk. I recall a case where a guy whith some Dead stickers on his car gave them permission to search, so they disassembled his car, and vacuumed his floormats looking for resin and residue. No surprise, they found microscopic traces in the carpet, so he went to jail and his car was confiscated. If he hadn't agreed to the search, they couldn't have done it. On the other hand, I had a case a while back where they stopped the guy without proper PC, he refused the search, they searched anyway, found 2kg of coke (which is a LOT of coke), and I was able to get the search tossed at trial. No search = no coke. No coke = he walked out of the courtroom, a VERY lucky man.

Rules vary from State to State. But Generally (and keep in mind the disclaimer above):

Give them your license and registration. Sign the summons if they issue you one. Consent to nothing. Volunteer nothing. If you want to be polite, say "Hello, Officer." If they ask you how fast you were going, say either nothing or "just under the speed limit." DO NOT SAY "I don't know" or five miles over the speed limit, that's an admissable admission, and is a confession. If they ask you what the speed limit is, change the subject by asking if you are under arrest. If they try to draw you into a conversation, they are NOT trying to be your friend, they're fishing. Say "Am I under Arrest?" If they say "no", say "Am I free to go?" If they say "yes, you are free to go", LEAVE. If they say "no", say "I want a lawyer before I answer any questions." If they ask if they can search your car, say "No". If they ask "why not?", say "because that's what my attorney said to say." DO NOT DO ANYTHING TO GET YOURSELF SHOT, OFFER NO PHYSICAL RESISTANCE, but DO NOT give up your rights either. Once you've been pulled over and given the cop your license and registration, you should only be using three phrases: "Am I under arrest?"; "Am I free to go?"; and "I would like to speak to an attorney" if the cop says you are under arrest. If they DO search your car, do not resist. Say "I do not consent to a search of the car", and then STFU. ZIP IT. If they ask you anything, drop back to phrase #3: "I would like to speak to an attorney". Sound like a goddamned parrot. You'll look stupid to them, but it may save your ass. Here Endeth the Lesson.

[TeeYiYi]

26. Wow. Thanks DoNotRefill ! . . .

. . . A very thoughtful and incredibly helpful post indeed.:thumbsup: Thanks again.

Time to bookmark this thread. :hi:

TYY

[SupportRapeVictims]

32. But I would add only do that if you have something to hide

Don't do it just to be a smart-alec. If a cop searches your car and finds nothing, he is very likely to give you a warning for the initial reason for stop.

If you do have something, refuse the search. They WILL find what you're trying to hide.

[Jack_DeLeon]

34. Nyet

Never consent to a search.

If as you say "only people who have something to hide" dont consent to searches, then cops will assume that people who dont consent to searchs must have somethign to hide.

If everyone believes that then they might pass laws that make it legal for police to search whomever whenever because "if you dont have anything to hide you wont have to worry about it."

I have been pulled over twice for speeding. They never asked if they could search my car, but had they I would have said no. I had nothing illegal at the time, but it is my right to deny them.

Besides you never know if you forgot something, or someone else left something in your car, or maybe the laws have changed or something.

[DoNotRefill]

36. Wrong.

You should NEVER give up your rights because you "have nothing to hide". If you're a law abiding citizen, should you invite the cops in to search your house? Of course not. It's none of their business.

[RoeBear]

38. Why consent...

...just because you 'think' you have nothing to hide? What if your teenage son or daughter used your car to give a friend a ride and that friend dropped a joint between the seats? How are you going to explain that?

[TX-RAT]

41. Before a judge

[RoeBear]

44. I'm sure he'll...

...take your word for it. :eyes:

[TX-RAT]

45. Probably not

But what the hell, judges need a good laugh too.

[TX-RAT]

43. Good advice

[7th_Sephiroth]

28. most cops now are wired for sound

and thier cruisers have cameras, if they do a bunch of illegal shit, petition in court for the tapes of your pull-over

[TX-RAT]

42. Those cameras and recorders protect everybody.

[The Flaming Red Head]

47. Or

Dial your lawyer or a friend and leave an open line going. I consented to a search recently (nothing was found of course) and it was awful, but it was either that or get beat up again. So what can you do?

[SupportRapeVictims]

30. Yes he can, probable cause.

Now if he just suspects you because you have long hair, then no.