Undecided on the assault weapons ban

[DoverFrank]

I dont know which way to go on this. I think everyone here is on the same page more or less. From what Ive seen, most support reasonable gun laws but not completely banning all guns. I see alot of argument over details in the gun laws, and the assault weapons ban is probably the biggest issue. Please dont jump down on me for my ignorance, just give me your best argument either way and answer a few questions for me if you would. First, can the gun companies can get around the ban by changing a few things, so they can sell basically the same gun that was supposed to be banned, is that correct or is there more to it? And, since you can still buy the pre ban guns and accessories, what does it matter whether the ban is renewed or not? If what I think is correct than it seems to me it doesnt really matter whether it gets renewed or not. What am I missing? To support or not to support? :)

[billbuckhead]

1. Supply and demand raises prices and make the AW's harder

to obtain. If this bill isn't important why does the NRA fight it so hard?

[Name removed]

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[slackmaster]

34. Yeah, the poor shouldn't be able to get decent firearms

All animals are created equal, eh bill?

[Heyo]

2. They do sell..

... weapons that are semi-auto for example... that can be modified easily to fire fully automatic. I saw a guy (gun expert) on a talk show years ago convert one in like 12 seconds.

Whether they bad them or not.. people will still have them... I'm iffy on it too...

Heyo

[amber dog democrat]

4. yeah but allot of these semi automatics are not designed for " full" auto

Chances are you can cause damage to the receiver from over heating.
And I would not trust a gun to be safe to use that was modified that way.
Give me a BAR anytime...or an M 14.

Except for just the rush of shooting, I question how practical these guns are to use,
but they are fun to shoot.

[slackmaster]

5. Without getting into that pointless discussion again

i.e. whether or not there are semiautomatics that can be converted easily to controllable full-auto; the AW ban has nothing to do with conversion to automatic or the ease thereof.

Firearms that are presently available in post-ban or ban-compliant form have exactly the same mechanisms as their pre-ban or "banned" versions. The AWB did nothing to make illegal full-auto conversions any more difficult to accomplish. Its expiration will not make illegal machineguns any easier to make or to acquire.

[DoverFrank]

7. Was that legal?

I took this issue up the other day with someone. Is that legal to do? To clarify, are there lawful loopholes to make it legal to convert to full automatic? What was involved in converting it? Cost, tools etc... what info do you have on it?

[slackmaster]

9. It's possible to do it legally

But you have to first get a specific type of Federal Firearms License, and you have to get the BATF to sign off on a form for permission to manufacture a post-1986 machinegun.

You also have to comply with any applicable state or local laws.

If it's true that someone did a full-auto conversion just as a stunt, I doubt that it was legal.

[PopeyeII]

10. Urban Legend?

I've heard that story quite a few times but as yet have not been able to confirm it. I've found just about everything else posted on the internet but have not found any sites that contain that information. If a jerk has information on something out there they'll post it and claim it's legal under the First Ammendment.

Do you have any solid technical links that back this up?

[slackmaster]

12. You're not the first person to question that story here

And I'd bet a pint of Guinness Stout you won't get a straight answer.

:toast:

Usually that story involves a quick conversion of a Glock pistol to fire full auto with some part or combination of parts that can be "easily" bought on the Internet, or fabricated by an unskilled person from commonly available items.

[Heyo]

15. To what exactly are you referring?

The full auto conversion? or the guy doing it in like 12 seconds?.. the later I saw many years ago on a talk show like Montel or something.. (this was a long time ago)...

I'm not really a gun person, so I don't know how the full auto conversion is done.. I assume it coverts the mechanism of the semi-auto that puts another round in the chamber after the previous one is fired, and takes that a step further to fire that one as well and repeat until the trigger is released... I don't know the specifics, because like I said I'm not a gun person, but it doesn't sound at all unfeasable.

Heyo

[slackmaster]

16. Modern semiautomatics are designed to be hard to convert to full auto

Here's a link to an article that shows the differences between the semiautomatic AR-15 rifle and its selective-fire cousin, the military M16. The fire-control components of the AR-15 - Selector lever, disconnector, hammer, bolt carrier, etc. - are intentionally designed to fire only semiautomatically. Note that in most cases you would have to add metal to change the AR-15 version of a part to the M16 version.

Simply replacing those parts with their M16 counterparts is not sufficient to make the gun fire more than one round per trigger pull. Installing a standard M16 automatic sear requires a permanent modification to the lower receiver, at a minimum drilling a hole with great precision. Once you've done that there is no way to un-drill the hole without it being detectable. You will have turned an expensive rifle into a legal hot potato that can never be used or transferred or even kept without risking serious jail time.

http://www.ar15.com/content/legal/AR15-M16Parts/

This is typical of the level of difficulty you'd encounter in trying to convert most semiautomatic firearms to fully automatic. As I noted previously, the conversion argument is a red herring in this discussion because the AW ban did nothing to make an illegal conversion more difficult.

[slackmaster]

3. Post-ban versions of the "banned" weapons were available on Day 1

September 14, 1994.

Every model that was "banned" AFAIK has been available in ban-compliant configurations since the day the ban went into effect. Except in states like California that have enacted their own AWB with their own definitions of what constitutes an AW, you can buy a semiautomatic AR-15 or AK type rifle, or an Uzi, or any of the other stigmatized types of firearms if you are not legally disqualified from owning a gun.

First, can the gun companies can get around the ban by changing a few things, so they can sell basically the same gun that was supposed to be banned, is that correct or is there more to it?...

You have accurately described the present situation. It's really that simple. The company that made the infamous TEC-DC9 pistol went out of business, but today there are actually MORE types of guns similar to the "AW" patterns available than there were 10 years ago.

Take a quick look at the online catalogs of ArmaLite and Bushmaster:

http://www.armalite.com/sales/catalog/catalogMain.htm

http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/

There are many other manufacturers of AR type rifles (BTW - AR stands for ArmaLite Rifle), and other weapons that were successfully modified to comply with the AW ban.

And, since you can still buy the pre ban guns and accessories, what does it matter whether the ban is renewed or not?

In terms of public safety the ban makes no difference at all. It matters because the ban unjustly and without rational basis prohibits features that are harmless and do not make the firearms any more dangerous to the public. That's bad law. This is supposed to be a free society. Pointless restrictions are inherently wrong.

[MrBenchley]

8. Can't put it much better than I did once before...

Lots of reasons why the AWB should be renewed and strengthened

Here's some good ones...

Tom DeLay wants assault weapons on the market
Orrin Hatch wants assault weapons on the market
Trent Lott wants assault weapons on the market

It's a helluva good issue to use to show what lying scum the Pirates of Halliburton are...

David Duke wants assault weapons on the market
The Reverend Moon wants assault weapons on the market
John "Mary Rosh" Lott wants assault weapons on the market

There's no good reason police should be easily outgunned by the criminal element

The Aryan Nation wants assault weapons on the market
The NRA wants assault weapons on the market
Larry Pratt wants assault weapons on the market

After years of lying that the ban was "only cosmetic," the gun lobby showed America that was an outright lie by shutting down the "immunity from liability" bill when an AWB renewal amendment was attached--and the amendment passed handily in the Senate to general approval from the public.

Pat Buchanan wants assault weapons on the market
Sean Hannity wants assault weapons on the market
Larry Craig wants assault weapons on the market

70% of voters want an assault weapons ban.

Ann Coulter wants assault weapons on the market
John AshKKKroft wants assault weapons on the market
Wayne LaPierre wants assault weapons on the market

One in five law enforcement officers (41 of 211) slain in the line of duty from January 1998 through December 2001 was slain with an assault weapon, many of which were “post-ban” models that will remain untouched by a renewal of current law.

John Kerry supports strengthening and renewing the assault weapons ban
Ted Kennedy supports strengthening and renewing the assault weapons ban
Carolyn McCarthy supports strengthening and renewing the assault weapons ban

A post-ban AR, the Bushmaster XM15 M4 A3 assault rifle, was used by the Washington, DC-area snipers to kill 10 and injure three in October 2002. The Bushmaster is the poster child for the gun industry’s success at evading the ban. The guy who manufactures the Bushmaster headed Chimpy's fund-raising efforts in Mainein 2000--until his name became public and he had to resign.

Diane Feinstein supports strengthening and renewing the assault weapons ban
Jon Corzine supports strengthening and renewing the assault weapons ban
Chuck Schumer supports strengthening and renewing the assault weapons ban

[DoverFrank]

11. Ah, I didnt know it was being strengthened.

I thought it was the same ban, what else does the renewed bill add? I tried to run the gauntlet of the congress website but I dont have the time or patience to find anything on it.

[slackmaster]

14. There are various proposals

S 1431 and HR 2038 are patterned after California's "one Evil Feature and you're out" AW ban.

They're almost certainly dead for this session of Congress, bottled up in committee and probably would fail in the House anyway. The promoters of those bills got greedy and asked for too much, and as a result they will end up with nothing.

At the moment Senator Feinstein of California is looking for a bill onto which to tack a 10-year extension of the existing ban. She's not having much luck.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/06/28/MNGQK7D4RU1.DTL

Washington -- Sen. Dianne Feinstein knows the odds are increasingly daunting as she tries to win congressional renewal of her 10-year-old assault weapons ban before it expires Sept. 13, and she warns that if the law lapses "you can expect the market to become flooded'' with such guns as AK-47s and Uzis....

Which is of course not accurate, since post-ban or ban-compliant versions of semiautomatic AKs and Uzis have been available all along. Expiration of the ban will mean they can have folding stocks, flash suppressors, and bayonet lugs once again.

Senator Feinstein is a very intelligent person and a very effective legislator, but on this issue she has too much ego at stake to see how much damage her stubborn adherence to a failed law could do to the Democratic Party.

[DoverFrank]

20. So its already a dead issue?

It looks to me like they have all but given up hope on it. ?

[slackmaster]

21. I t hink they SHOULD give it up

Let the damn thing die a natural death as it was designed to do. There won't be any rivers of blood in the streets as a result. Expiration of the AWB isn't going to result in anyone getting shot who wouldn't have been shot otherwise.

[MrBenchley]

Wow...the more things change...

So you want to discuss the proposal but you don't know what it is...or where you might find it?

Telling.

[Name removed]

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[PopeyeII]

13. The anti-gunners need to hire a technical consultant.

"A post-ban AR, the Bushmaster XM15 M4 A3 assault rifle, was used by the Washington, DC-area snipers to kill 10 and injure three in
October 2002. "

It could of been a .22 Hornet. .222, .223, .22-150, .22 Swift, .223 WSSM. Could have been done with a Thompson Condender or Magnum Research. One shot does not an assault weapon make.


Is it an assault weapon it it's used in self defense?

[MrBenchley]

18. And the gun nuts need to stop peddling crap.

"Is it an assault weapon it it's used in self defense?"
<sarcasm>Yeah, THAT's what the Beltway Sniper was up to...self-defense.</sarcasm>

[PopeyeII]

19. The beltway sniper didn't need a semi auto or a 5 round magazine either.

And he had a lot in common with you too. A lack of proper mental health. Nuts shouldn't own guns, nor make phobic decisions on gun laws.

[MrBenchley]

23. No all he needed were gun industry scumbags and a gun

"he had a lot in common with you too. A lack of proper mental health."
So YOU say...but then I'm not the one peddling gun nut horseshit on this thread.

[PopeyeII]

25. I quote:

Sigmund Freud: "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

:evilgrin:

[MrBenchley]

26. Go ahead....

It's always instructive to see how dishonest gun nuts get....

[PopeyeII]

29. Tap your heels together three times.

There's no place like home.
There's no place like home.
There's no place like home.

[MrBenchley]

30. I don't have to rely on fairy tales...

Especially not those coming from scumbags like Wayne LaPierre and Mary Rosh...

[PopeyeII]

31. Rain Coats On Folks.

He heaving monkey poop again.

[MrBenchley]

35. Exactly what you deserve too...

But I guess you knew that.

[DavidMS]

22. Just because I don't support the AWB...

Doesn't mean that I actualy believe Tom Delay is a human. I don't know if Ann Coulter is either.

As opposed to disucssing various rightwing "persionalities" I would perfer to actualy discuss the issue.



I am uncomfortable with the AW ban because gun controll must have such a minimal effect on crime rates that most major and widely quoted studies have been debunked by the other side. Which to me as someone who barely passed statistics means that the corelation between firearms ownership and crime is minimal once cultural factors are eliminated.

On a basic liberties basis I am opposed ot the renual.

[MrBenchley]

24. Hahahahahaha....

"As opposed to disucssing various rightwing "persionalities" I would perfer to actualy discuss the issue. "
I'll bet. Of course, it's damned hard to separate the sort of scumbags pimping for assault weapons in the media and in politics FROM the issue...unless you want to pretend Tom DeLay has his head up his ass on every issue save one...and that it just coincidentally seems to be one on which he agrees with David Duke and the Aryan Nation.

"gun controll must have such a minimal effect on crime rates that most major and widely quoted studies have been debunked by the other side"
Yeah, surrrrrre....and that's why the gun industry's sole scientfic backer is synonymous with academic fraud.

[DavidMS]

27. Kellerman and Bellesiles have the same problem.

http://www.guncite.com/gun-control-kellermann-3times.html

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_bellesiles.html

Most of the "research" on the issue is bogus.

Like I've said before even stoped clocks are right twice a day.

Don't make an appeal to anti-authority. Just because Tom Delay (the Human Cockroach) says somthing doesn't make it in and of itself incorect. I agree that he lives in a reality free zone but that has no berring on this discussion.

As for the loosers who dress up in white sheets when not engaging in amoral sexual relations, they did support keeping African Americans and other ethnic/religious minorities disarmed. It was a "guns for me but not for thee" position. Of cource it realy didn't matter because the Klan and their comrades with the CCC dominated southern politics and made absolutely sure that the criminal justice system was broken.

Gun controll is not about guns, its about symbols.

[MrBenchley]

32. Too too funny...

In other words, gun nuts hate Kellerman and lie about him. Next!

"Don't make an appeal to anti-authority."
Why the hell not? Especially since you dragged out Bellesiles (a historian, not a scientist) for that purpose.

"I agree that he lives in a reality free zone but that has no berring on this discussion. "
Sure it does...since you're trying to pretend part of his horseshit is valid.

"As for the loosers who dress up in white sheets when not engaging in amoral sexual relations, they did support keeping African Americans and other ethnic/religious minorities disarmed."
Funny, they're ALL peddling this dishonest "gun rights" bullshit today. But then, so few people are fooled by what's lurking under THAT sheet.

"Gun controll is not about guns, its about symbols"
Horseshit.

[DavidMS]

51. Here we go again...

Bellesiles was a respected historian until he made the same mistakes everyone else is prone to in doing "studies" which is fabricate data.



I agree "gun rights" don't exist as the libertarian fantasy but exist right next to my right to have consensual sexual relations with people who are legally able to make those decisions without the MEMRI (Saudi Morality Police) ruining our fun. Its a privacy related right with some militia related reasons for its existence.

"Gun control is not about guns, its about symbols"
Horseshit.

Its part of a large system of symbolic reassurances that things are the way that they are supposed to be, same with the religious Rights fascination with pornography.

In the case of certain partisans, they bring a certain black and white religious moral furor to the discourse and drown out all rationality. Guns are part of a particularly powerful symbol system in the US related to law and order, settlement of the nation and Bleeding Kansas.

Abroad, for instance in Switzerland, a similar ideology prevails but centers on the citizen soldier.

[DoverFrank]

28. How do you feel about Dean

He was endorsed by the NRA. I dont know what you think about him but, if it werent for him I wouldnt be here. Alot of others I know too wouldnt be involved if it werent for him.

What is the gun industry's sole scientific backer you mentioned?

[MrBenchley]

33. Gee, where does Dean stand on this issue, I wonder (snicker)?

"Kerry supported the 1994 bill that outlawed the sale and ownership of assault weapons, which Dean says he now supports."

http://desmoinesregister.com/news/stories/c4789004/22649906.html

Gee, that NRA endorsement did wonders for his campaign, didn't it?

[DoverFrank]

36. Yes but

You seem to indict people because they share positions on issues with less than savory politicians etc, and you position yourself around issues based on who supports or opposes it. I know your position on the NRA, the question is how you reconcile that with your opinion of Dean. If you can indict the pro gun crowd en masse because they happen to share a position with Delay or whoever, does that mean you renounce Dean because he was endorsed by the NRA? I know Dean supported the AWB and background checks by the way.

Im not sure the NRA endorsement did damage to Dean's campaign. I just think he peaked too early and allowed infighting to get the best of him. With everything he brought to the nation's attention and the way he mobilized people like myself, he SHOULD be our nominee. He earned it. Im done ranting now :)

[MrBenchley]

37. Hahahahahahaha....

"you position yourself around issues based on who supports or opposes it"
No...I just enjoy pointing out what ugly playmates the gotta getta gun fraternity here climbs in the sanbox with...

"Im not sure the NRA endorsement did damage to Dean's campaign."
Gee, but aren't we being told ad nauseam by the trigger happy amongst us that there are millions or footin' tootin' gun totin' Democrats and liberals just aching to support the party except for that pesky old gun control...and that if only we dropped that plank, the voting booths would be swamped? Sure we are...but then along came Dr. Dean with that NRA endorsement....and "pffffft."

But then who DIDN'T know that claim was horseshit, like everything else in the RKBA bag of tricks?

[DoverFrank]

38. Do you really think his NRA endorsement cost him the nomination?

"along came Dr. Dean with that NRA endorsement....and "pffffft."


You cant be serious. I dont think most democrats even care about the NRA or gun control. Not to the extent that other issues overshadow it anyway. No way, I dont believe for a second that his endorsement had anything to do with it. Dean was attacked from all sides, thats what cost him any chance of the nomination.

[MrBenchley]

39. Didn't help him one damn bit now, did it?

But then I wasn't the one making the claim that there are lots of Democrats who support this imbecilic gun rights horseshit, either.

Of course, the same people claiming that also claim the ban does nothing and that assault weapons are just the same as conventional guns. And that's horseshit too.

[DoverFrank]

41. No, you claimed that the endorsement cost him the nomination

I hope that is not a pervasive theory around here. Dean got caught in the crossfire between dipshits and on the right and his own party. The NRA endorsement had NOTHING to do with it.

"But then I wasn't the one making the claim that there are lots of Democrats who support this imbecilic gun rights horseshit, either."

I never said that. I said most democrats probably dont care one way or the other.

"Of course, the same people claiming that also claim the ban does nothing and that assault weapons are just the same as conventional guns. And that's horseshit too."

I never claimed that either but what does the ban do, in your opinion. Going back to your first sentence, it seems there are "lots of Democrats who support this imbecilic gun rights horseshit" on this board. Id like to hear from you what the ban does and what are some good reasons to support it. Aside from naming people who dont support it that is ;)

[MrBenchley]

43. I did no such thing...

What I said was that it didn't help him a bit..and that those hordes of pro-gun Democrats that our "pro-gun democrats" claim are out there turned out to be non-existent.

"what does the ban do, in your opinion"
Like I said, read the bill.

"Id like to hear from you what the ban does and what are some good reasons to support it. Aside from naming people who dont support it"
Been there, done that.

[DoverFrank]

45. Why the reluctance?

Opinions man, opinions! Lets here from both sides :) There seems to be alot more people here who dont support it than do.

What other message boards do you people visit that discuss this? All I have found are gun sites.

[MrBenchley]

46. What reluctance?

[DoverFrank]

47. I meant that you are not very explicit in your opinions

There are more people being specific about why they dont want the assault weapons ban renewed. I wondered why you wont elaborate on your opinions that it should be renewed. From what Ive heard here so far, I still dont see how the ban really accomplishes anything aside from making it slightly more difficult to buy those guns or parts for the guns. Any other forums aside from gun sites you know of?

[MrBenchley]

48. I elaborated on anything I was asked about....

"I still dont see how the ban really accomplishes anything"
But then you also said you hadn't read the proposal...

[DoverFrank]

49. I hadnt, but have now

Its just a laundry list. Nothing much in the way of what it will prevent or how successful it has been. Thats why i was looking for input from both sides. Thanks anyway

[MrBenchley]

50. Well, I gave my input

On the open forums I visit, the people who are usually pimping for assault weapons are too busy pissing and moaning over Michael Moore (AGAIN) and trying to pretend Bremer bugging out two days early in fear is a "triumph" for pResident Turd.

[slackmaster]

40. I must have missed the announcement of an endorsement

I've read that Dean got some kind of 'A' rating from the NRA but not an endorsement. I thought they always endorsed the Republican choice whenever there was a draw. Since neither major party has nominated a candidate, I don't believe the NRA endorsed anyone yet.

[DoverFrank]

42. As governor he was endorsed 8 times

But you are right, I dont think they ever came out and endorsed his election bid.

[MrBenchley]

44. You will notice

the NRA has been very reluctant to "endorse" candidates...in 2000 they did all the lying and scumminess they could think of to try to defeat Al Gore (Heston even called for a lynch mob)...but they never actually ENDORSED Chimpy McCokespoon.

"The National Rifle Association decided that they would not endorse George W. Bush for president because they didn’t want to create fodder for Vice President Al Gore to use against Bush.  An NRA official said, “Our goal is to do no harm” to Bush.
Already Handgun Control, Inc. is running a television ad in swing states with NRA vice president Kayne Robinson saying that if Bush is elected “we’ll have a president where we can work out of their office.”
The NRA does plan to spend millions of dollars in commercials plugging George W. Bush and trashing Al Gore as a threat to gun owners and what they see as their right to own guns without restrictions."

http://www.politicsandelections.com/usa/gossip/#NRA%20Helps%20Bush%20by%20Not%20Endorsing