Democrats "burned" on gun issues... McCarthy is frustrated...

[-..__...]

And yet, the J/PS oracles tell us a different story.
:shrug:

"Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it."
.... George Santayana


Assault gun ban is political ammo for Democrats

BY FRANK JAMES

Chicago Tribune

WASHINGTON - (KRT) - When former President Bill Clinton sought to frame differences between Democrats and Republicans, he made a point of citing the soon-to-expire federal ban on semiautomatic assault weapons.

"Our policy was to put more police on the street and to take assault weapons off the street, and it gave you eight years of declining crime and eight years of declining violence," Clinton said in his prime-time speech at the Democratic National Convention last week. "Their policy is the reverse."

8< -------- Snip

The gun issue has burned Democrats in the past, and many in the party believe it contributed to their loss of control of the House in 1994 and to former Vice President Al Gore's defeat on traditionally Democratic turf, such as West Virginia, in the 2000 presidential election.

That has led Democrats to tread especially carefully on gun control this year. While Kerry and the Democratic Party's platform favor an extension of the ban, neither is calling for a wider law.

In an effort to underscore the point that Kerry is not anti-gun rights, his campaign has publicized his ownership of guns, and he has been photographed skeet shooting. His campaign ads also have used archival footage of him toting an M-16 as a young naval officer in a Vietnam jungle.

Yet important voting blocs, including police officers and suburban residents, support limited gun control. The Democrats' strategy of de-emphasizing gun control while supporting the assault weapons ban may be an attempt to signal that the party does not want to seize the guns of law-abiding owners but favors limited restrictions.

8< -------- Snip

Clinton signed the assault weapons ban into law as part of the Federal Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994. It met such resistance at the time that the only way sponsors could garner enough votes was to agree to a provision that would let the law die after 10 years, known as a "sunset" provision.

"We're watching it, we're working it, we're committed to see it sunset," said the NRA's LaPierre of the ban.

Rep. Carolyn McCarthy, D-N.Y., expressed frustration at how little attention the issue is getting.

"Many members on both sides of the aisle are petrified of the gun issue," McCarthy said. "If this didn't come up, it would be OK with them."

McCarthy said she hopes the ban may yet be saved because she believes it has helped save lives.

"It's my job to get the American people to realize that the assault weapons ban is expiring, and they need to start rallying around it," she said.

Full story...

[MrBenchley]

1. Gee, and the Republicans are obstructionist fuckwits...

Why do none of our RKBAers seem able to read even simple news stories?

"Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry supports extending the ban, which is to expire Sept. 13 unless Congress acts.
An extension appears to have public support. An NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll in November found that 78 percent of respondents favored keeping the ban.
With only a few legislative days left before Congress' scheduled end and with little desire in the Republican-led House to extend the ban, chances for the law's survival are slim to none.
McCarthy said she hopes the ban may yet be saved because she believes it has helped save lives.
"It's my job to get the American people to realize that the assault weapons ban is expiring, and they need to start rallying around it," she said."

http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/news/special_packages/9291429.htm

[RoeBear]

2. People do realize that the ban is expiring...

...and they are rallying around that fact. Just not the way you want them too.

[MrBenchley]

3. Yeah, the 78% support for renewal

is even higher than it was earlier this year...

But hey, I can see why our "pro gun democrats" don't want the Party to rally to an issue that has the support of 78% of the electorate and can be used to bash the shit out of the Republican Party and their leadership.

[-..__...]

6. Tell you what then.

Why don't you contact Senator Kerry (or his staff), and share your
campaign "strategy" with him?

I suppose I don't have to tell you (or, maybe I do), do not include you usual vitriolic feelings and observations about guns and gun owners.

Somehow I don't think he would take too kindly to being referred to (or categorized), as being a "racist humhole" or having "bullets for brains".

[MrBenchley]

9. Gee, didn't you read your own damn story?

Kerry SUPPORTS the renewal and strengthening of the ban and if Chimpy fails (and it looks like he will (no surprsie, what doesn't he fail at?) he will get another one through Congress and signed.

"I suppose I don't have to tell you (or, maybe I do), do not include you usual vitriolic feelings and observations about guns and gun owners."
Gee, you mean you think Kerry would be in any way surprised by the sort of feebleminded horseshit the NRA and the fuckwits on gun owner forums are saying about him? Or that he doesn't know that Larry Pratt is a racist piece of shit?

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bowline]

52. You confuse the 78% who responded to the poll with 78% of all Democrats.

The poll said only that 78% of people who responded to the poll supported renewing the ban. It did NOT say that 78% of Democrats supported renewing the ban and it most certainly did not say that 78% of the electorate supported renewing the ban. It said ONLY that 78% of people who chose to respond to the poll supported renewing the ban.

[-..__...]

13. I'll be hosting a...

dance around the Maypole festival and pig roast. All are invited; even Mr B.

:party: :toast: :bounce:
:bounce: :party: :toast:
:toast: :bounce: :party:
:party: :toast: :bounce:
:bounce: :party: :toast:
:toast: :bounce: :party:

[thomas82]

25. Midnight SEP 13 2004

Yea there will be some celebrating here if it expires. My neibors understand that it will be the 4th of July again at the house. Im glad I just bought this 5 acres of land. Oh yea Benchy is invited but he must bring his own ammo:party:

Tom

:party: :toast: :bounce:
:bounce: :party: :toast:
:toast: :bounce: :party:
:party: :toast: :bounce:
:bounce: :party: :toast:
:toast: :bounce: :party:

[-..__...]

4. Hello.. McFly!

Only 5 minutes had passed between the time of my post and your response.
However, if you had actually read the story and understood the context in which I posted it, you might have understood where I was coming from (learn to control your anger, young Padawan).

In case you missed it or just plain chose to ignore it, it's no big secret or revalation that Kerry supports the ban (as does "the other guy").

Relax.
Listen to some soft rock (Have a Pina Colada... take a walk in the rain).
Smell the flowers.
Watch the clouds...

I'll all be over in 43 days when the ban sunsets.

[MrBenchley]

5. Hey, I was here, I saw a pile of crap from you...

clicked on the link and saw what a botch you had made out of what was actually printed...

"if you had actually read the story and understood the context in which I posted it"
The story and context in which you tried to spin it were both crystal clear....

"'ll all be over in 43 days when the ban sunsets."
Oh no! Surrender, Dorothy! And I remember our "pro gun democrats" glooating that the "Get Away With Murder" immunity from liability act was unstoppable. Refresh my memory. How'd that work out?

[-..__...]

8. Huh?

WTF? Are you having a nervous breakdown or stroke or something?
(I'm serious).

What did I botch?

Dude... here's a clue :think:....

"After all, we've been told over and over again that "gun control advocates" are frustrated and angry at the ticket (although that claim turns out to be utter horseshit)"

Click me

[MrBenchley]

10. Geeze, when did the RKBA crowd lose the ability to read?

[Columbia]

7. Ban them all!

Who needs to win elections anyway? We need to get those evil bayonet lugs off the streets. We're much better off having the GOP control the House, Senate, and White House because at least there will be less killer collapsible stocks out there. I'd rather have gun control legislation that has never been proven to reduce violent crime than having our party win elections and able to enact legislation protecting the environment, abortion rights, gay rights, healthcare, and other progressive causes.

[MrBenchley]

12. Too too funny...

"Who needs to win elections anyway?"
Yeah, let's pander to the 22% who cream their jeans over assault weapons instead of the 78% who want them banned..because....er.....

"We're much better off having the GOP control the House, Senate, and White House "
That's sure as shit true for our "pro gun democrats." But then they're not fooling much of anyone.

"having our party win elections and able to enact legislation protecting the environment, abortion rights, gay rights, healthcare, and other progressive causes."
Gee, and what a job pro gun politicians do opposing all those things.

RKBA "logic" or whatever the fuck it is...

[thomas82]

24. These polls disagree with you on the 78% AWB support

Oh yea Hi everyone!!! just thought I would add some pro gun imput.

The CNN poll has 59% of america wishing to lift the AWB
http://www.cnn.com/POLLSERVER/results/10738.content.html

This webpage has evwen better numbers. (at bottom of page you must vote to get results)
Should the U.S. federal government continue the ban on assault weapons?

Yes 638 7%
No 7879 93%
http://www.kqed.org/index.jsp?flash=true

TOM

[FatSlob]

29. Then again, I'm sure that these polls have been

DUed by pro-freedom folks like me.

[MrBenchley]

30. Obviousl-Ooops.....

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/913567/posts

http://209.157.64.200/perl/poll?poll=19

http://216.109.117.135/search/cache?p=%22Free+Republic%22+%22assault+weapons%22+poll&u=ramblingwithrevandryn.blogspot.com/2004/05/let-cnn-know-what-you-think-of-their.html&w=%22free+republic%22+%22assault+weapons%22+poll&d=95B3AC5CEF&icp=1

Amazingly, anyone who puts "Free Republic" "assault weapons" and "poll" into a search weapons can find even more examples of such "freedom lovers" voting over and over and over in online polls....

[library_max]

32. Web polls are garbage.

It's too easy to freep them.

[MrBenchley]

34. And as the links in #30 show, the freepers DID freep them....

[FeebMaster]

35. Unless the results agree with your position, of course. (nt)

[Crachet2004]

41. The 78% number comes from the 'Wall Street Journal', which I am sure...

Is all anyone here on DU needs to know about A) It's legitamacy with regards to Democratic causes, and B) Who it really helps if the Democratic Party continues to pursue this issue.

In other words, one of the most rightwing publications in the country publishes a poll suggesting Democrats should continue a crusade which history shows will result in more electoral victories for...their own rightwing subscribers!

[library_max]

42. It's worthwhile to distinguish

between the Wall Street Journal editorial page, which is a gabfest for the loony right, and the Wall Street Journal news pages, which are among the most respected (and least biased) in the country. Guess which section featured the poll?

[Crachet2004]

43. ??????The same people own the entire paper. There is no seperation in

Ownership...and they don't LIKE US. They want us to lose more elections. They get that to happen by putting out phony polls to goad us into supporting issues like gun control, which the ELECTORAL POLLS have shown time after time, people DO NOT SUPPORT.

These electoral polls are the only ones that count, the only ones that show what people truly want. It is why we are currently a minority Party. Get it?

ANYTHING coming from the WSJ, is immediately suspect.

Haven't you ever wondered WHY so many polls from adversarial publications support your position?

They want you to lose elections.

[library_max]

44. You don't know the WSJ. I do. It's my job - I'm a librarian.

It is a matter of fact that there is a wide disparity between the credibility of the WSJ news section and the editorial page. It doesn't matter a rat's heinie who owns it. Rupert Murdoch owns both Fox News and Fox Entertainment - ever see The Simpsons?

[Crachet2004]

46. No, I don't watch cartoons, I come to this forum to fill that need...

And I am afraid that I disagree with you about the relevance of the rodents rear end, with regards to ownership and control...obviously, it means EVERYTHING. Explain to me how you can honestly believe otherwise? Especially with regards to one of the flagship publications of the ownership class?

In other areas, like the campaign, Journal polls are notoriously skewed against our candidates! But they aren't manipulated against our own true self-interest as a Party in this one instance?

The WSJ, its owners and most of its readers have no use for the Left, the Democratic Party or any of our causes.

In this case, they have put out an inflated poll to support a position of ours, which has done nothing for US, except lead to defeat at the polls.

Their fondest hope is that we will buy into the poll, continue our support for a radioactive issue, and thereby lose more elections.

But the days of people blindly accepting poll numbers without actively examining the purveyors possible motives are just about over.

The 'Wall Street Journal'! Yeah right.

[MrBenchley]

47. Hahahahaha....

"In this case, they have put out an inflated poll to support a position of ours, which has done nothing for US"
It's sure kept some of the really scummy folks in the country away from our party...and it's a position that the majority of the voters agree with.

"the days of people blindly accepting poll numbers without actively examining the purveyors possible motives"
Unless it comes to that idiotic Zogby/O'Leary poll that the "pro gun democrats" are flogging...

[library_max]

49. I reiterate that you don't know what you're talking about, and I do. /nt

[Crachet2004]

57. Uh huh. Because you are a "librarian". I heard you.

I am just not especially impressed by the implied expert qualification. But I never would have mentioned it, had you not.

For what its worth, I too worked in a university library, while an undergraduate...workstudy, for three years. At various times, staff positions became available and were mentioned to more than one of us. We were a pretty enthusiastic bunch of kids...we BELIEVED in the Library. And to this day, a journey into the bowels of the stacks, is almost like a safari for me...I once got waylaid by Winston Churchill for several months. lol.

The fact is, I DO know what I am talking about, but I suggest we let anyone who may happen upon this exchange make their own minds up about that. Shall we?

[Bowline]

50. The Right loves the gun control issue.

No one on their side would even think of voting against the party line and they know it's a big wedge issue with Democrats. Even if Dems don't vote Republican the issue of gun control just might drive them to vote third party, which is just as good as a vote for the Repbulicans. You'd be hard pressed to find an anti-gun Republican so there really isn't the worry of a split among their followers like there is on the left.

[library_max]

53. Yes, like I've often said,

RKBA is historically a right-wing issue.

But that doesn't do anything to invalidate a legitimate scientific poll. The AWB is overwhelmingly popular. That's why Kerry and Edwards and the Democratic Platform support it. No wedge there.

[skippythwndrdog]

45. Whew!

The KGED poll tries VERY hard to convince you to vote in favor of retaining/strengthening the AWB. I had to go through 4 pages of gun control crapola before my vote registered.

When I finally saw the tally, it wa 92% to scrap the AWB and 8% to keep it.

granted, it's just an Internet Poll, but the numbers are telling.

[MrBenchley]

48. Yup...amazing what the freepers can do

to make their idiotic positions seem ilke the mainstream....too bad for our "pro gun democrats" the freepers were dumb enuogh to brag about doing so on their cesspool of a website...as anybody who puts "Free Republic," "assault weapons" and "poll" into a search engine can see for themselves.

In case anyone is too lazy, there are links elsewhere in the thread.

[Bowline]

51. Outstanding poll.

I just took it and, after the requisite 4 or 5 pages of anti-gun propaganda and intentional misinformation, was pleasantly surprised to find the results to the question "Should the U.S. federal government continue the ban on assault weapons?" to be:

Yes 708 8%
No 7920 92%

And this coming from KQED, the public TV station broadcasting to that hotbed of scummy, humhole, trigger-happy, right-wing fanaticism that is the San Francisco Bay Area.

[library_max]

54. Web polls are crap.

They are too easily freeped. MrBenchley has already documented the fact that this one has been freeped.

[Bowline]

55. How does one document that a particular poll has been freeped?

I am curious to see if it applies to several other polls I've seen recently.

[library_max]

56. Google "freerepublic" "poll" and the topic of the poll.

If you retrieve messages calling upon freepers to freep the poll, you can reasonably assume it has been freeped.

DUers do this too, by the way. Anybody can do it. That's why web polls are crap.

[Bowline]

58. Hmmm. I guess you really can learn something new every day. Thanks. n/t

[library_max]

60. Welks. /nt

[Redneck Socialist]

11. The Kerry campaign has made a deliberate decision...

...to reach way out into what had traditionally republican territory. His acceptance speech stole every republican theme in the book. The emphasis on his military service, the theme of strength and the hunting and shooting press availabilities are all part of that strategy.

I'm sure that given the opportunity President Kerry would sign the AWB or similar legislation. Candidate Kerry isn't going to push gun control as an issue because of the strategic decision to grab the middle ground and inoculate himself against republican attacks.

[MrBenchley]

14. Hell, I suspect that it will be twice as visible

if Chimpy and the GOP lets it lapse...it's a great club to beat the corrupt fuckwits with.

However, a quite possible scenario is that by September Republican congresspeople will be bailing furiously for the center, eager to show they're not the sort of idiot extremists who would put assault weapons into the hands of lunatics, criminals and terrorists...

[enfield collector]

16. sounds like you're in favor of letting the ban expire then.

[MrBenchley]

17. Wow...I guess when you're really desperate, anything sounds hopeful...

[billbuckhead]

18. If the ban expires, we can get a much stronger one

It's a lose lose scenario for the extremist gun crowd and their RepuKKKe fellow travelers. They're too stupid to realize it. They were so on target about about the gun manufacturer immunity deal...............NOT.

[FeebMaster]

20. How do you figure?

If you can't even get the current one extended, how are you going to get a stronger one?

[Columbia]

22. Oh, he'll just bounce some heads on the ground

Works wonders in Congress I hear.

[library_max]

33. Maybe Bill expects the majorities in Congress to change after the election

A lot of Democrats do.

[MrBenchley]

37. Maybe Bill expects that

even if the Republicans hang on to the House, that the far right wing extremists will be pushed aside by more moderate GOPers with a centrist agenda.

[slackmaster]

21. How far are you willing to escalate this issue?

Restrictive laws cost votes. The more kinds of firearms that get stigmatized, banned, confiscated, etc. the more people become alienated. The present about-to-expire AWB barely passed when Democrats controlled both houses of Congress and the Presidency.

Consider those of us who think the AWB is bad law to be the "extremist gun crowd" at your own risk. If you think there are too many of us now, if you think the NRA is too powerful, you're going to be very unhappy with the backlash that something like S.1431 would cause.

[MrBenchley]

27. Who ARE you trying to kid?

"The more kinds of firearms that get stigmatized, banned, confiscated, etc. the more people become alienated."
Like who? 78% of American voters want these guns OFF the market. And there's not a single valid honest argument as to why they should be on the market.

"Consider those of us who think the AWB is bad law to be the "extremist gun crowd" at your own risk."
Hahahahaha....that's REALLY funny.

"If you think there are too many of us now, if you think the NRA is too powerful, you're going to be very unhappy with the backlash that something like S.1431 would cause."
Oh no! Would that mean our "pro gun democrats" would post even more right wing crap? Would that mean that the NRA would tell lies about Democrats and give most of their money to the GOP? Nice playmates you guys got.

[MrBenchley]

26. Exactly so...and the best thing is

that it's an issue that shows EXACTLY what an extremist fringe the GOP is willing to pander to.....the Tim McVeigh wannabe crowd.

[iverglas]

19. once again ... opinion is not proof

"many in the party believe" blah blah blah.

And this colunnist believes. Blah blah blah.

Or ... all these folks SAY they believe.

Whether they actually believe it or not -- what exactly is their belief proof of??

[Columbia]

23. Expert testimony is admissible evidence

And I think being a former Democratic President of the United States qualifies as being an expert in the field.

[MrBenchley]

28. The former Democratic President who called for the AWB renewal?

Or are you trying to pretend that Jimmy Carter wants assault weapons on the market?

[iverglas]

59. what the *hell* are you talking about?

And I think being a former Democratic President of the United States qualifies as being an expert in the field.

Are you actually claiming that something that Bill Clinton said constitutes "expert opinion" that the assault weapons ban is ineffective or some damned thing??

Here's what the article said:

When former President Bill Clinton sought to frame differences between Democrats and Republicans, he made a point of citing the soon-to-expire federal ban on semiautomatic assault weapons.

"Our policy was to put more police on the street and to take assault weapons off the street, and it gave you eight years of declining crime and eight years of declining violence," Clinton said in his prime-time speech at the Democratic National Convention last week. "Their policy is the reverse."

Clinton's comments demonstrated how some Democrats hope to use the assault weapons issue against President Bush and members of Congress in the campaign.

So what are YOU talking about??

Expert opinion is indeed "admissible evidence" -- and, more to the point, is generally regarded as a good basis for one's own opinion in an argument.

Now if you or anyone else would actually like to present the opinion of some actual expert in support of whatever you're saying, the rest of the world will be eager to hear about it.

If you're offering Clinton as an expert whose opinion should be conclusive or even persuasive in support of the assault weapons ban, you've done a fine job indeed.

[library_max]

31. Well, this is hugely disingenuous.

The headline of the story actually reads, "Assault gun ban is political ammo for Democrats." It points out that 78% of voters support the ban, and quotes Democrats supporting the ban, and supporting Kerry and Edwards and the Democratic Platform's support for the ban. Yet somehow, the post mixes out-of-context quotes with spin to pretend that there is something in the story to indicate that Democrats are divided over this issue.

When is this lie gonna die? Kerry and Edwards have made it clear that they do not plan to push gun controls generally, but both have come out in favor of the AWB, which is immensely popular nationwide no matter what RKBAers in the Gungeon think of it. This is not an issue that is causing widespread unhappiness among gun-control advocates. This is not an issue that is dividing Democrats. We on the gun-control side are very happy with Kerry and Edwards. All the bitching and moaning I have seen about them has been on the other side.

[FeebMaster]

36. So have you read it yet?

The AWB I mean.

[library_max]

38. Feeb, you needn't come a-runnin' every time I say "hugely disingenuous."

People will get the idea that the shoe fits, or something.

[FeebMaster]

40. Well I just saw that you were talking about the AWB

again and I was wondering if you'd read it yet.

[MrBenchley]

39. Worth noting

that on highroadrage.com todaythere's an attack thread on Kerry that even attacks him for being part-Jewish, with nary a word of dissent or defense from any of those "pro gun democrats" and gun owning liberals we keep being told are out there...

And we've yet to see a sign that any gun control advocates anywhere are in any way disgruntled by Kerry and Edwards...