In which states will "gun ownership" be a factor in November

[goju]

Pennsylvania, definitely. Ohio? Missouri? West Virginia?

Any locals have any thoughts on this?

[MrBenchley]

1. My own feeling is "none"

I don't think the NRA's idiotic "Kerry's going to kick down your door and take away your guns" campaign is going to resonate with any but the REALLY right wing and feeble-minded....the ones who were already going to vote for the Republicans...

I think the economy, the war on terror, and the overall direction of the country are going to be much more important issues everywhere...

[enfield collector]

2. If the AWB sunsets and we keep the antis muzzled then AZ won't be a proble

[skippythwndrdog]

3. It's a biggie here.

KY - the lubricant state.

[LQQKR]

4. Everywhere...

It's clear the majority of Americans are in favor of being armed for their right to self defense.

[MrBenchley]

5. Who are you kidding?

Who but the looniest fringe of the right wing thinks the most important issue this fall is keeping John Kerry from busting down their door and taking away their sacred fetish object?

[RoeBear]

14. Just a reminder...

...if the gun issue can be left on the back burner, some of the "looniest fringe of the right wing" will stay home on election day.

[MrBenchley]

16. Yeah, and if it's put on the front burner

Voters in the middle get to see the sort of scumbags the GOP is quick to pander to....as well as what an empty sham that "America is safer" claim of Chimpy's is....

[MrSandman]

6. The gun control issue ...

has not been in the fore in WV to date. We have such economic concerns and so many Guard/Reservists on active duty now that the economy and military issues are getting big play. In the absence of either candidate taking a strong stand one way or the other, it probably won't be an issue.

In 2000, IMHO, it was the specter of national FOID cards that gave the issue in WV.

[Crachet2004]

7. I think Kerry has done a good job finessing this issue...

If the AWB sunsets, without much said by our ticket, WV will be safe for us...IMHO.

However, my worst fear is that it WILL be brought to a vote, and enough Republicans will vote for it, to purposefully pass it, in order to 'stir the pot'. Democrats will get the blame, and passage will return this issue to the limelight, to our detriment, in November.

Hopefully, enough Democrats will see this trap coming, and stay home the day of the AWB vote (if there IS one) for this issue to die a much-needed death.

[MrBenchley]

8. Hahahahaha....

"Democrats will get the blame"
From whom? The same right wing fuckwits already slandering the ticket already.

"this issue to die a much-needed death"
Much needed by thugs, terrorists, and loonies perhaps. For law abiding citizens, it's a necessary ban.

[Crachet2004]

10. Will you be laughing if the AWB is renewed, and we lose in November?

It is a very real possibility, you know. For what it is worth, other than losing the next election thereby, I couldn't care less if the weapons listed on the AWB, stay banned. Others have already long since entered the pipeline legally, for those who want them.

The entire thing has been, and will continue to be so costly to the Democratic Party, that I am absolutely sure there are NO plans for further control, by our Party.

And if the AWB sunsets in September, I would be thinking about finding something else to cackle about, because gun control will be effectively dead...

See ya in September.

[MrBenchley]

12. Tell us....if we lose in November...

how much of it will be due to the racist shitwits at the gun lobby?

"I couldn't care less if the weapons listed on the AWB, stay banned"
Yeah, it shows.

"And if the AWB sunsets in September, I would be thinking about finding something else to cackle about, because gun control will be effectively dead."
Surrender, Dorothy!! Somehow, though,. I think I'll just keep soldiering on against the right wing's most extreme and dishonest splinter group...

[Crachet2004]

17. If you continue 'soldiering', it will be for a lost cause.

Face it, it is almost over. Either the AWB sunsets in September, effectively neutering the entire issue, or it passes, and we lose again in November, effectively neutering the entire issue.

Either way, our Party will soon be going out of the gun-control business.

But if we lose in November, what our Platform says about gun control probably won't matter, as we could very well lose our status as a national Party, or at least as one which can effectively oppose the GOP.

You really need to spend some quiet time thinking about what a loss might mean for us in November, and for this country.

[MrBenchley]

18. Surrender, Dorothy!

"our Party will soon be going out of the gun-control business"
Sez you.....

"we could very well lose our status as a national Party"
Says who? Rush Limbaugh?

"You really need to spend some quiet time thinking about what a loss might mean for us in November"
It will mean that the really scummy gun lobby helped push the GOP over the top with lies and blood money...and that a handful of "pro gun democrats" were no fucking help to the Democratic Party whatsoever.

[Crachet2004]

22. If you are this bitter NOW, Benchly, what are you going to be like...

When the sun goes down on AWB in September? We shouldn't become so involved over a single issue that it threatens our health, say through a coronary rupture?

I truly AM concerned about your blood pressure, as you have no doubt turned more Democrats pro-gun than all the rest of us combined...you are our team leader in this regard, I have no doubt.

And Benchly, your continuing reference to 'The Wizard of Oz' grows tiring...is it the only film you know to make reference to? And for what it is worth, most of us find the 'man behind the curtain' a far more interesting figure, than the Wicked Witch...with regards to some of our discussions on DU.

[MrBenchley]

23. Gee, such solicitous concern....

"your continuing reference to 'The Wizard of Oz' grows tiring..."
Tough titty, binky...Ask me next how tired I am of "pro gun democrats" and their horseshit.

[library_max]

49. "so involved over a single issue . . ."

So! It's MrBenchley who's been starting all these AWB threads that are clogging the JPS forum!

What have you got to say for yourself, MrB? How have you managed to start so many threads using other DUers' usernames, most notably our happy un-obsessed RKBAers like thomas82, Remmah, goju, FatSlob, necso, D_S, and Bowline? How is it that you have forced RKBAers who have been happily ignoring the issue to push the post count for most of those threads well above 100? No doubt you just forced sweet, lovable Cratchet to make a personal attack on you, too! Has your obsession no limits, you fiend?

[TX-RAT]

19. Do you truly believe the election hinges on the AWB?

[Crachet2004]

28. The election potentially may hinge on more than this one issue...

But gun-control is ONE issue we have some, well, control over. And it is the ONE issue that is widely seen as costing us critical support in rural states, that in turn, cost us dearly in the last two or three national elections.

Without the support of at least some of the states mentioned on this thread, we may well lose in November...and what this might mean for our status as a national party, I shudder to think.

Many of us believe, including, evidently, the junior and senior Senators from my state-both well respected Democrats, I might add-that the Constitution and Democracy itself is in peril, at this hour.

Bush must go, and we should all do what we can, within the system as it now exists, to see to it that this is the result in November.

Right, wrong, or indifferent, we cannot afford the backlash from rural states, passage of the AWB would entail at the electoral polls this fall.

There is simply too much at stake.

[MrBenchley]

32. Ahem Ahem Ahem....

"we cannot afford the backlash from rural states, passage of the AWB would entail at the electoral polls"
What backlash?

"Rural states, traditionally seen as very conservative on gun issues, strongly favored renewing the ban. Sixty-eight percent of voters in South Dakota and West Virginia support renewal.
Majorities of gun owners in all but two states favored renewing the ban. Even in those two states, Missouri and Ohio, only slightly less than 50 percent of gun owners and NRA supporters favored renewing the ban. "

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A60579-2004Jul18.html

[goju]

21. The AWB will be neutered

but gun control itself will not. I expect with only a few days left, the AWB will definitely sunset. I think that is the plan, despite the efforts of a few hardcore "constitutional controllers".

I think they are betting on some wins in the house to give them a better chance at real gun control. The AWB will be rewritten with bigger teeth and more extensive controls in the next year or so. If the "constitutional controllers" in here are an indication of the future, they will also be going after handguns in addition to semi auto rifles.

That will likely require revisiting the interpretation of the 2nd itself. Watch for tell tale signs of disinterest in the current AWB from our side (which we are already seeing) and concerted efforts to reframe the debate on gun control itself, ie the discussion will shift away from "assault" capacity and focus more on "needs" vs "public safety".

[NorthernSpy]

29. can I borrow the ruby slippers? pleeeeeease?

Surrender, Dorothy!! Somehow, though,. I think I'll just keep soldiering on against the right wing's most extreme and dishonest splinter group...


Y'know, I really had wondered about that. This isn't the first time you've resorted to this "Surrender, Dorothy" trope. You mean to say that you think of yourself as Dorothy from The Wizard of Oz?


Alrighty, I'll play along... what the hell...

Lunabush would have to be the Wizard, clearly -- so that role is taken.

Can I be Glinda, the Good Witch?

Which one of you guys is Toto? I'm kind of afraid of dogs, so I'll want to stay well away from him/her.


Mary

[MrBenchley]

30. Want me to tell you where you can put them?

(snicker)

[NorthernSpy]

31. watch it, Dorrie...

A good witch is still a witch. I could turn you into a toad just like that.


Mary

[MrBenchley]

33. Long as you don't turn me into an RKBA troll...

They're lower than vermin....

[library_max]

48. Ever see the movie?

The Wicked Witch of the West is flying on her broomstick, high above Emerald City, and spells out sky-writing style, "Surrender Dorothy!" It's an empty threat - at that point, there's not a thing she can do to force the citizens of Emerald City to cooperate with her, or to force Dorothy herself to surrender.

So the reference is to hot-air pronouncements along the lines of "we've won, you've lost" based on nothing except chutzpah. And the role you're actually volunteering for when you get that response was the one played by Margaret Hamilton.

Just on the off chance that you couldn't have figured out all that for yourself.

[Hef]

44. 80M gun owners..

.. in America, and only 16M licensed hunters. That leaves 64M people who own guns for purposes "other than hunting". For them, the AWB is an issue in this year's election. To ignore their votes would be foolish.

[skippythwndrdog]

11. Law abiding?

I'm law abiding. I'm almost a model citizen.

I own funs. I don't want any restrictions on what I may own.

Fuckwits of the world unite!

[MrBenchley]

15. Like I said....

[skippythwndrdog]

20. ????

Did you mean "AS I said"? If so, you said what?

A typo here, a typo there and you seem to be in heaven.

[MrSandman]

13. Or if it passes the Senate...

I think the House has enough pro-RKBA Dems to prevent the scenario.

[CarinKaryn]

35. So you're encouraging Progressives NOT to vote for the AWB

cuz you think that will HELP us?

What a crock. Next we can vote FOR tax cuts for the obscenely wealthy to HELP the poor.

[MrBenchley]

37. And if we don't push for reproductive choice

and let the GOP run roughshod, that divisive old abortion issue will just go away....

MEANWHILE, here on planet earth, you might be interested in this poll from the hardcore gun crazies own website, which indicates fewer than half of the ravers and screamers are planning to vote for Chimpy....

http://www.keepandbeararms.com/polls/pollmentorres.asp

Harry Truman said, "give the people a choice between a Republican and a Republican and they will vote for the Republican every time."

[Lefty48197]

9. Wyoming, Idaho, and Nebraska.

.

[library_max]

47. Don't forget Texas.

There's even a pretty good chance that the gun issue will tip Texas to Bush.

[Township75]

24. It's always an issue in PA...

As of now, I think Kerry is doing an oustanding job of dodging this land mine...he isn't mentioning gun control as far as I know...I don't even think he mentioned it at the convention.

I bet if he doesn't, the Repubs will push gun control into the spotlight as if Kerry had mentioned it to drum up fear, and peel off some votes.

[MrBenchley]

25. Ahem....

"One week after his selection of John Edwards as his running mate, Democratic challenger John Kerry has jumped to a 46 – 41 percent lead over President George W. Bush among Pennsylvania voters, with 5 percent for independent candidate Ralph Nader, according to a Quinnipiac University poll released today.
In an open-ended question, where voters can give any answer, 29 percent list the war as the most important problem facing the nation today, followed by 20 percent who list the economy or jobs and 12 percent who list terrorism or security."



19. What do you think is the most important problem facing the country today?

Tot

War 29%

Economy total 20%
Economy general 7
Unemployment/jobs 12
Jobs leaving 1

Terrorism 12%

Healthcare total 7%
Healthcare/Costs/HMO's 6
Prescription costs 1

Foreign policy total 3%
Foreign policy general 1
Priorities s/b at home 1
Middle East 1

Politicians total 3%
Political corruption 1
Bush administration 2

Education total 2%
Education general 1
Funding education 1

Lack of ethics/Morality 2%

Abortion 1%
Budget deficits 1%
Family breakdown/
Family values 1%
Lack of religion 1%
Poverty/Homelessness 1%
Taxes general 1%

Other 7%
DK/NA 3%

http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x11661.xml

Guns didn't even get to 1%....

[Crachet2004]

26. I agree with you...in WV, the less said about control of ANY kind,

The better off we are gonna be. This election is ours to lose, but if we do not allow The AWB to sunset, it can darn sure happen...again.

[MrBenchley]

27. Ahem Ahem.....

Latest WV poll I can find shows Bush ahead of Kerry in the state 51% to 43%....

http://www.dcpoliticalreport.com/2004/WVPoll.htm

So who would gain by not bringing up an obvious example of Chimpy's dishonesty and hypocrisy that makes America LESS safe and is overwhelmingly popular with libral and moderate voters? Not the Democrats.....

[Crachet2004]

34. We all know the polls look like a shotgun pattern...

They are all over the place. Many axes are being ground, one way or another, using the medium of 'polling' as well as others. People generally just cannot stand backing a loser, can they?

In other words, it has long been the case, that polls are used to FORM opinion in this country, rather than REFLECT opinion.

It is almost as good a trick, as using the 'momentum' of one rather small state, Iowa, to practically guarantee a lock on the Democratic nomination for Kerry...who was essentially dead in the water going in to the Iowa Caucuses.

The lesson concerning polls, and how they can be used to form, and manipulate opinion, is one of the largest ongoing revelations here at DU, during this campaign season.

The only polls that matter, are electoral polls, and given BBV, even they cannot be trusted as a direct reflection of popular will.

It has gotten so bad, in fact, that anecdotal evidence is probably more reliable than a whole boxcar full of 'scientific' polls...so here is my contribution to the anecdotal polling pool, for WV.

To find a woman who is voting for Bush, is difficult, some of the really elderly ones perhaps, but female yuppies are not that common an item here...and many men are beginning to warm to Kerry. GOP attacks on Kerry's Vietnam service and medals, are reminiscent to many of the treatment our veterans were given when returning from Vietnam...after having done their personal best, they were spit upon, so to speak. We have a lot of veterans here.

Honestly, you cannot prove the poll you cite by me. Maybe in other parts of the state, Bush is that popular, but not where I live, down along the Ohio River.

I think a lot of people here feel they were had, in 2000, and only an escalation in the perceived threat level of gun control can turn the tide for Bush in this state, as it did in 2000.

[MrBenchley]

36. Uh-HUH

"Honestly, you cannot prove the poll you cite by me."
Nor would I try, for what seem to me obvious reasons....

"I think a lot of people here feel they were had, in 2000, and only an escalation in the perceived threat level of gun control can turn the tide for Bush in this state, as it did in 2000."
Jeeze, how dumb and paranoid ARE gun owners in your state? If they're so dumb that this unelected drunk can swindle them twice, they're clearly too stupid to be worth pandering to.

[MrSandman]

38. Kerry has not taken any positions in the primaries...

To motivate any RKBA support in WV. That is the difference in the RKBA vote between 2000 and 2004 in WV.

Economy and War will be the main topics in this state.

I hope we have no October terror attacks. That will give Repugs an issue.

[library_max]

46. That's a lot of words just to say, "Facts, schmackts." /nt

[FatSlob]

39. Ohio, without a doubt.

Senator Kerry is losing many votes due to his positions.

edited to clarify:

His voting record is considered by many to be anti-gun, and his appearance to vote with Diane Feinstein for an AWB renewel and against the gun makers tort reform bill is being used against him. Gun clubbers are saying that he is even worse than Mike DeWine, the Republican Senator from Ohio.

[MrBenchley]

41. All 70 of them?

"Gun clubbers are saying"
Funny how every time we hear about these folks in the Ohio newspapers they seem to be the same dreary 70 or so loonies....

"Gun clubbers are saying that he is even worse than Mike DeWine, the Republican Senator from Ohio"
I guess that's a step up from the pro gun democrats spouting off that Kerry is as bad as AshKKKroft, as they were a few weeks ago. Good thing we've got our "pro gun democrats" speaking up....hahahahaha, who am I kidding?

[turnkey]

40. Missouri

With our recent hard-fought legislative victory over our "Lame Duck" governor, we now have a Concealed Carry law. Guns will remain an issue in our state, IMO.

[MrBenchley]

42. Telling from our "pro gun democrats"

"our recent hard-fought legislative victory over our "Lame Duck" governor"
That would be the GOP's override of Bob Holden's veto...nice use of the word "our"

[turnkey]

43. Referring to the "Pro-Gun" non partisan folks, of course. n/t

[MrBenchley]

45. Nope, I'm referring to the trigger happy few

who attack Democrats and cheer for the GOP with monotonous regularity....

The tombstones come and go but the RKBA bullshit remains the same....

[turnkey]

50. I'm personally not a big fan of either party...

When it comes to gun issues in general. I believe lip service is paid based on the prevailing political winds.
Shallow politicians bore me, as do the narrow minded on either side of the issue.