when the Bushistas come for you, an assault rifle isn't going to help.

[UpsideDownFlag]

if you are really so afraid of freepers or crime, move somewhere else- i fail to see how your FN FAL will save you.

[goju]

1. And we need this particular straw man why?

[TheRovingGourmet]

2. That is what I don't get about poor people. Why do they stay

in such horrible neighborhoods? Why not just buy a house in a gated community? They'll have low crime, the best schools, and so forth. They must be stupid because they won't move.

[amber dog democrat]

3. Not sure how to respond to this

Whether or not something I may or may not have may or may not protect me -
the US Constisution will - if its correctly applied.

[FeebMaster]

4. That's good to know.

There aren't very many assault rifles in civilian hands, after all. Less than a quarter million machine guns in all, as I understand it.

[slackmaster]

5. No, but I'd still like to have a real FAL in my collection

It would look nice between the French MAS 49/56 and my dummy MG-34.

:dunce:

[enfield collector]

19. I have a franken FAL/L1A1 I built a couple of years ago

it shoots like a dream, pity about the crappy sightes IMHO.

[UpsideDownFlag]

6. think about it, what have all those "Rethinking the NRA" threads been

talking about? something to the effect of, if we lose our guns, we lose the ability to defend ourselves against government agression in the even of martial law or whatever. so my question is...

when a tank is rolling down your street b/c of this supposed martial law, what good will your popgun do you?

[amber dog democrat]

7. silly, when there are tanks,

use IEDs.

[TheRovingGourmet]

9. When a tank comes rolling down my street I'll just wait until

it hits all those fucking speed humps that the city put in; that'll learn 'em to come around my neighborhood.

[LibraLabSoldier]

11. From a Soldier

This conversation has actually came up many times with other soldiers since i came in the army. You assume that soldiers will just go "d'uh, yassuh boss, we'll go kill american citizens cuz you say so"

WRONG!!

A large number of us would join the fight for freedom....emptying the Arms rooms and Motorpools and hangars as we went.

Troops arent slack jawed jackbooted thugs. We are Americans. We defend America. If it has to be defended from its own government, we are on the job.

[gatlingforme]

12. I kind of thought that would be so. I can't understand why someone

would think that we all just roll over and take it. ummm, I would assume that in a democracy as we have this would be quite the coup.
and according to the assertions of this poster, were all going to get our "pop" guns out and shoot those evil doers. LOL

[Vladimir]

13. You draw the wrong conclusion

it is true that your best defence in the event of a government crackdown is to hope that the troops will refuse to obey orders. But its equally true that this does not make the AK in your home any more helpful. If anything it will hurt, because troops are unlikely to open fire on an unarmed crowd but may well decide to open fire out of fear if y'all bring your rifles to the party...

[LibraLabSoldier]

14. Excuse me , Comrade.....

Did you not read my post? American soldiers are .....wait for it....AMERICANS!! We arent gonna get all "nervous" and start shooting. Quit watching bad movies.

[Vladimir]

15. Well pardon my stupidity Bubba,

but it seems to me the ones watching bad movies are the same ones who clutch at their SKS daydreaming of the moment when the government will come for their guns and they will have to protect the 2nd amendment with their lives. But I digress...

[LibraLabSoldier]

16. I am not talking about Joe Militia

I am talking about those of us who are in the US military. We will not fire on our own citizens.

[Vladimir]

17. Well maybe you will and maybe you won't

Lets both hope you never have to find out, eh? But I rather suspect you'd be more likely to open fire on an armed crowd than an unarmed one, which was my original point...

[LibraLabSoldier]

18. You are not hearing me.

We would not be facing off with the crowd. We would be part of the crowd. Albeit the one with tanks, and Apaches, and all the other military hardware that wasnt nailed down.

[Vladimir]

20. I am hearing you

but am loathe to accept your protestations given the actions of the Army during some of the Vietnam War protests... remember the Kent State Incident?

[LibraLabSoldier]

21. No, I dont.

DOnt blame soldiers today for what happened thirty years ago. We are a new breed. The whistle blower at Abu Graib was a specialist, in otherwords a young soldier who saw something wrong, and did the right thing to fix it. We are not the same troops of a generation ago. We are more educated, and more politically and actively aware. I hope it never comes to it, but if the line gets drawn, there will be more Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines on the side of Justice and Democracy than on the side of a corrupt government.


ANd you can take that to the bank.

[Vladimir]

22. I wish I could

but if there is one thing history teaches us, is that the more things change, the more they stay the same.

There have always been whistleblowers anyway. During the British slaughter of the Mau-Mau in Kenya, there was more than one officer who tried to report what was happening. There just wasn't the popular outrage around then...

[DoNotRefill]

26. vlad....remember the 29 palms survey?

the one with the question about would you fire on us citizens who refused to surrender their arms? Remember the result? 39% said yes, the rest said HELL NO.

[Vladimir]

27. And this is my point DNR

its easy to answer surveys and post on the net - its a lot harder to make that decision in real life. The 61% in that survey have no idea how they would react if pressure was put on them by authority, and similarly the 39% don't have any idea if they would be able to pull the trigger when faced with their own citizens. I just don't think its safe to assume anything but the worst...

[DoNotRefill]

28. OK, let me ask you this....

if the government is coming to kill you, does having a gun somehow make you LESS likely to die than not die?

Secondly, does not having a gun make you more or less likely to die alone? In other words, does your being armed make your roundup safer or more risky to the jackbooted thugs throwing your ass into a concentration camp?

If they come for me, so be it. Armed, unarmed, the result for me will be the same. Either way, I'm dead. But I'd rather be armed...so that I at least have the CHANCE of killing some of the bastards that are killing me.

[library_max]

41. So we're no longer talking about protecting or defending anything.

We're talking about killing for the joy of killing - killing "jack-booted thugs," of course, not killing real people. Gordon Liddy would approve wholeheartedly.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Vladimir]

33. When I try to face it, the mirror cracks n/t

[LibraLabSoldier]

34. LOL

Ok, lets just agree to disagree. I promise that if the government ever tries to put you in an internment camp, I will personally bring help and rescue you. Deal?

[Fescue4u]

36. "I just don't think its safe to assume anything but the worst..."

And that is exactly why the need for the 2nd ammendment, and an armed citizentry.

[LibraLabSoldier]

37. Burying your head in the sand...

Seems to be the method of choice around here.....Personally, i would rather have guns and not need them, than need them and not have them.

[library_max]

42. Yes, but there's that little matter of 30,000 gun deaths per year.

If it weren't for that, then sure, either way would be fine.

[FeebMaster]

43. Of course, most of them killed themselves. (nt)

on edit: spelling

[LibraLabSoldier]

48. how many deaths caused by

Accidents involving SUVs? How many deaths involved with backyard pools? If you are talking simply about death prevention, you have much better areas to attack. Did you know that most police officers are killed by their own service weapons? Guess we should disarm the police then, for their own protection.

[Vladimir]

52. Well the Brits never had an armed police

and they aren't exactly a murder ridden society...

[LibraLabSoldier]

54. So go be British.

Enjoy the bad teeth and bland food while you are at it. Something that works in one country would not necessarily work here. If thats all it took, lets just have the same laws as the Netherlands.

They seem to be very "happy" people......

[Vladimir]

55. I live in the UK as it happens...

and I wasn't suggesting that everyone can adopt the British model, merely pointing out that its not as ridiculous a suggestion as you make it out to be.

Incidentally, what on earth do bad teeth and bland food have to do with it?

[enfield collector]

56. that's the way us Brits are stereotyped in the USA. just watch

the Austin Powers movies for a good example. technically speaking I should get my teeth fixed since becoming an naturalzed US citizen. the food part is no problem since my wife is Italian.

[Vladimir]

64. Hey I'll take a hole in my teeth over

a hole in my chest any day of the week...

[library_max]

60. Do you have any figures to back any of this up?

Or are these just NRA talking points?

Neither SUVs (nor motor vehicles generally) nor swimming pools are weapons per se. Guns are. That's what they're for. I guess I should also have mentioned the hundreds of thousands of crimes committed every year with guns.

[LibraLabSoldier]

65. I have already posted the DOJ figures on gun crimes

Since I will have plenty of free time at work tonight, since I finished up a college course last night, I will assemble all the data with figures on fatalities involving SUVs, Swimming Pools, and other sources. The DOJ report also pointed out another interesting factor. If you are a black male between the ages of 14-24, you are many, many times more likely to die of a shooting death....

[library_max]

68. "If you are a black male between the ages of 14-24,

you are many, many times more likely to die of a shooting death ..."

You're right, that is an "interesting factor." Certainly does mitigate those 30,000 deaths per year. Because if most of those deaths are young black males, well, who needs more of those anyway?

/sarcasm off/

:wtf:

[LibraLabSoldier]

72. You misunderstood.

I was pointing at the fact that most gun crime takes place in gang related drug activities. Don't try to make a racist out of me. The fact is, these shooting deaths are a direct result of the uber lucrative war on drugs. It is yet another symptom of the failures of government to control crime. I quess I should have made that a little more clear.

[library_max]

78. Okay, now it's clear.

It's not that young black males getting killed isn't bad per se. It's just that young black males are all in the drug trade, and people in the drug trade getting killed isn't bad. Much better.

/sarcasm off/

Molly Ivins's First Rule of Holes: When you're in one, stop digging.

[library_max]

79. Dupe, sorry.

[MrBenchley]

73. A common claim among the trigger-happy....

Take this racist imbecile from the NRA: "And commenting on the murder rate in Los Angeles, Cooper noted in 1991 that "the consensus is that no more than five to ten people in a hundred who die by gunfire in Los Angeles are any loss to society. These people fight small wars amongst themselves. It would seem a valid social service to keep them well-supplied with ammunition."

http://www.vpc.org/studies/nrafamst.htm

Or THIS one: "Current NRA Research Coordinator Paul Blackman, echoing Cooper's views, has written that "studies of homicide victims—especially the increasing number of younger ones—suggest they are frequently criminals themselves and/or drug addicts or users. It is quite possible that their deaths, in terms of economic consequences to society, are net gains." "

http://www.vpc.org/press/0005nra.htm

[LibraLabSoldier]

75. So, by default

We must all be trigger happy racist skinheads?

[MrBenchley]

76. Hey, if you want to channel those sorts of comments

don't let me stop you....

[iverglas]

31. yeah

Just like those guys at Kent State. Maybe you've heard of them?


edit - oops. I was late to the party with this one. Can't think of much else to say ... except what a tedious pile of poop the entire moronic hypothesis behind this entire pointless exercise is, and how infantile the daydreaming in response to it is.

Dog have mercy, by the time "they" came to round up DoNotRefill and put him in a "concentration camp", don't you think the football stadiums of the nation would already be filled to the rafters with people actually worth rounding up? Either we all fancy ourselves Nelson Mandela, or we think that there is some master plan somewhere that will succeed in interning 50% of the population ...

[library_max]

38. Okay, so, fine.

Which brings us back to the question, why do private citizens need guns?

[Vladimir]

39. Because you can't trust the law

Except in the case of a coup. When you can trust them.

[7th_Sephiroth]

50. that happens, you find a net terminal and IM me

have one of those .50 cal sniper rifles your testing out in iraq and a humvee waiting for me down in the armory out by cordova mall in pensacola, i'll join the resistance baby

[LibraLabSoldier]

51. I would rather just get a new President.

I am not a revolutionary. I just hate it when people assume that all soldiers get a voluntary commonsense-ectomy when we join up. And you dont want a .50 cal.


Oh, and BTW, when I die, they will carve SquareSOft on my tombstone.....Squall rocks!!

[7th_Sephiroth]

57. squall was a little baby

he needed a swift smack in the head, and whats wrong with the .50 cal sniper rifle?

[Van23]

8. Yes it will

if we are organized into militias. History shows (like the Vietnam War) that small organized militias can wreak havoc on oppressive governments with superior firepower.

[Vladimir]

10. To quote Ice-T:

CIA, FBI, IRS
Try to flip us out for sweat
But they'll never sweat you son
Cause you're broke and you're dumb and you're no threat to no one

[-..__...]

23. <Monty Python> Run away!... run away! </Monty Python>

Nope...

Sorry...

Not in my blood.

If you're that afraid/concerned about guns and gun owners, why don't you consider moving?

Yeah, it's a childish stupid remark, but it's your thread.

I think I'll stay right here for now and continue to oppose any further firearms legislation, thank you.... the "Bushitas" and Freepers" can come later.

[LibraLabSoldier]

24. Do it Yourself.....

security, safety and freedom. Sounds very American to me!

[library_max]

40. Whereas what it actually is, is anarchy.

A la Waco, Ruby Ridge, etc.

[FeebMaster]

44. How were Waco and Ruby Ridge anarchy?

Seems to me the government was at the heart of both of them.

[MrSandman]

46. Naw, it was "BATman"...n/t

[library_max]

58. People thinking they had a right to resist the government

by force of arms.

[LibraLabSoldier]

47. So tell me this......

Are you content to wait after a violent crime has been done to you or one of you loved ones, then wait and see if the criminal justice system serves you? Not me. I have already had an experience with this. No shots were fired, and a crime was prevented. My family is worth protecting. If the police are unable to do that, I will do it myself. It is not anarchy. It is common sense.

[library_max]

59. I've lived in bad neighborhoods.

I had one apartment which was burglarized eleven times in five months. I've also been attacked and beaten up just for being in the wrong place (with the wrong face) at the wrong time.

So how does a gun make it all better? The facts demonstrate that a gun in the house is far more likely to be used against one of the family than to be used successfully to thwart a crime. Maybe you've had good luck with it. If so, bully for you. But there is no way to write the law to differentiate between people like you and prospective criminals, unstable people who reach for the gun when the argument gets too heated, and stupid people who shoot the meter reader, etc. by mistake.

Just out of curiosity, how do you keep your gun ready for use against an intruder but 100% out of the reach of your children?

[TX-RAT]

61. Good question

(Just out of curiosity, how do you keep your gun ready for use against an intruder but 100% out of the reach of your children?)

You don't.

[LibraLabSoldier]

66. Simple, I dont.

My children have been taught gun safety and responsibility since they were 18 months old. They know to treat all guns as loaded, and guns are not toys. It is really not that difficult to raise your kids to understand this. Besides, my shotgun that stays under my bed is difficult for even my wife to operate, much less one of the kids. So, let me guess, I am endangering my kids, they should be protected from me, blahblahblah

[library_max]

67. Yup. No blahblahblah required.

'Cause it's not like kids ever did the opposite of what their parents told them to do, right?

Just for grins, how old are those kids?

[LibraLabSoldier]

69. My kids

Are aged 7 and 3. DOnt misunderstand. I am not leaving loaded pistols on the coffee table. My kids have been raised to understand and respect firearms for what they are. I have also demystified them some. I take my girls to the range with me whenever they want to go. They actually werent really impressed, especially after all of the range safety procedures and safety equipment was put on. I dont kid myself. You cant hide things from kids. They will figure out how to get at whats forbidden. Just look at teen sex...lol.

[library_max]

80. Ages three and seven. And a loaded shotgun under the bed.

My God.

I can't think of a nice way to say this, but I don't mean it as an attack. I sincerely hope that neither of your kids gets shot or shoots anyone else with that gun.

[iverglas]

81. anybody know ...

Is it actually LEGAL to store a loaded firearm under the bed when there are children in the home?

Where I'm at, it is of course illegal to store a loaded firearm anywhere, but I thought I should aim low with the question ...

[MrBenchley]

82. In Illinois, it's illegal to store one

without locking it up, loaded or not. Isn't that where our trigger happy friend is?

Either way, isn't it great to hear from another responsible gun owner (shudder)....

[LibraLabSoldier]

88. Actually, I am currently stationed in Oklahoma.

Also, keep making little jabs. Maybe you should be really socially conscious and call Child protective services since there is a gun nut endangering his kids.

[MrBenchley]

90. "Maybe you should be really socially conscious"

Geeze, it's a sure bet some people aren't.

And in Oklahoma, there's currently no law against leaving loaded guns where kids can get them...more "good government" by right wing loonies and the gun lobby....

Oklahoma Information
Headlines from Oklahoma
* Purcell Oklahoma 5-year-old shoots self with gun found in home
* Oklahoma City girl, 4, shoots self with gun found in dresser
* Altus Oklahoma 14-year-old boy accidentally kills self playing with rifle
In 2001, there were 42 firearm deaths of children and teens in Oklahoma, including 16 suicides and 7 accidents.

http://www.kidsandguns.org/study/states.asp?Oklahoma

[LibraLabSoldier]

87. Its not about hope.

Its about teaching your children about proper gun safety and respect for firearms. It is not that complicated of a subject, even a three year old can understand. Besides, I have checked. It is not possible for either of my kids to load, cock, lift or fire that gun. I have checked. Its also about forty years old.

[library_max]

92. They'll get stronger and smarter as they get older.

But not necessarily more obedient or more sensible. You're putting a lot of faith in your teaching. I hope you're right.

[DoNotRefill]

25. it may not save me....

but it'll guarantee that I have a welcoming committee of RWers when I get to hell...

They can kill me. I'll be damned if I'm going to die alone.

[MrBenchley]

29. Hahahahaha....

Always amazing to me how many of our pro gun democrats are creaming their jeans over the chance to shoot their fellow Americans, but are curiously reluctant to take any lesser steps....

Like putting a pro-Democrat post on a gun owner forum...

[DoNotRefill]

35. hey Bench...

please link to where I've posted ANYTHING on a gun owner forum.

Thanks.

[MrBenchley]

30. Seems like every other day

we get humholes on here screaming that they NE-E-E-E-E-ED assault weapons for the glorious revolution to come...

[Endangered Specie]

45. Someone should tell them...

That was 140 years ago... they are a little late.

[LibraLabSoldier]

49. Have I ever said

that I neeeeeeeeed an Assault weapon? No. But I would rather not wait for the day when I have to choose between being a law abiding citizen and handing over my guns, or having to be a defacto criminal and holding on to them. I do not want there to be any reason for me owning guns besides the fact that I enjoy collecting, hunting and target shooting. But, if it ever does happen, I would feel better being armed and safe. I have two young daughters. I am teaching them both how to defend themselves, both armed and unarmed. I am not raising victims in my house.

[LibLabUK]

53. Hmm

"I am not raising victims in my house."

That's a really, really weird thing to say.

Almost as if you're blaming the victims of crime for the fact that they were victimised.

[turnkey]

63. "I am not raising victims in my house."

I'm sure that he means is that children have been raised to be self-reliant, and not expect anyone to protect them in a situation. To think for themselves, and not allow anyone to dictate their survival. That would include the criminal element.
You are only a victim if you think and act like one.

[LibraLabSoldier]

70. Exactly.

I am not blaming victims of crime. I am teaching my kids to have the tools to avoid being a victim if at all possible. In violent crimes, such as assaults and robberies, if the victim makes enough noise and resists enough, the criminal will often give up and leave. I would rather my daughters know how to deal with an abductor or rapist rather than laying there and taking it.

[iverglas]

77. "You are only a victim if you think and act like one."

And let's not forget "Exactly".

Nah, nobody's blaming victims here. Nothing to see, move along.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrBenchley]

62. By the way, jibjab....

WHY would a bushista ever come for one of these "pro gun democrats"? It's not like any of them ever says anything that AshKKKroft or Cheney wouldn't stand four-square for.

[LibraLabSoldier]

71. So, I guess that is basically saying that we

arent really democrats? Do you want to spit in the face of people on your side now? Hypocrite.

[MrBenchley]

74. Gee, the posts speak for themselves....

"Do you want to spit in the face of people on your side now?"
You mean like Carolyn Maloney? That sure as shit wasn't ME spitting.

[MrBenchley]

83. Hey, jib-jab

check out the Alan Keyes thread...and notice how many of our pro-gun democrats seem curiously unable to point out how screwloose his "let's have more machine guns" is.....

[LibraLabSoldier]

84. His argument is ridiculous.

No one wants to see a proliferation of fully automatic machine guns. That is insane. But use it to further your ends to attempt to take my guns away before I go nuts and kill my entire family. Oh, wait, I have owned guns my whole life and never shot a human being. Guess I just must be waiting until I can get my hands on am WMD.......

[MrBenchley]

85. Gee, Keyes sure does, and said so....

"your ends to attempt to take my guns away before I go nuts and kill my entire family"
Yeah...better hide under the bed (where you keep that loaded shotgun that you hope your kids won't touch)...Dianne Feinstein and I will take to the streets shortly in the Confiscationmobile.....

[LibraLabSoldier]

86. Dont be Flippant

or a jerk. I do not "hope" my kids will not touch my guns. The ony gun that is not locked and on a shelf is that one. And it is not operational for a small kid. And I wont even stoop to the "cold dead hands" statement.

[MrBenchley]

91. Why the fuck not...

It sure seems flippant to pretend a three year old is responsible enough to understand gun safety....or to pretend they can't pull a trigger.