What's the JPS take on this Drudge/Kerry rifle thing?

[LTR]

Here's a thread on it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x761640

What do you make of this whole thing? And Drudge claims it's a Beretta, while DUers think it's a Remington.

Either way, the Drudge article is pretty misleading.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

1. That's our Drudge!

Pretty misleading as a way of life.

[LTR]

2. Yeah, I know

But lots of people read that shit (I peek in to see what the daily GOP talking points are).

Thought we'd get a jumpstart and debunk. I've been sending Drudge some debunking links and pics, claiming he's wrong.

[Romulus]

3. well, to start, it's actually a shotgun

as for the Drudge claim that Kerry voted to ban it, I think that's a stretch - the bill in question talked about "pistol grips" on semi-auto shotguns.

From what the other DU people were saying, Drudge is claiming that Kerry broadly interprets "pistol grip" to include any place to put your firing hand. Such an interpretation would outlaw the semi-auto shotgun he is holding in the photo.

As we saw in the recent "armor piercing ammo ban" threads, the disinformation being peddled on a bill's intent doesn't always actually jibe with the actual legislative intent.

However, I wouldn't put it past some anti-gun-owner extremists to try to interpet "pistol grip" in such a broad fashion.

I doubt John Kerry looked at the "pistol grip" definition that broadly . . .

[mosin]

9. "pistol grip"

In S.1431, "pistol grip" is defined as "a grip, a thumbhole stock, or any other characteristic that can function as a grip." I do not see how you could argue that any traditional long arm has no "characteristic that can function as a grip." So, by that definition, all semi-automatic shotguns and all semi-automatic rifles with detachable magazines would be banned under S.1431. It's a clear attempt to make the expanded ban look a lot like the old ban on paper, but really make it much broader in reality.

[goju]

4. Well its definitely semi auto

And yes, 1431 would have banned all semi auto's with pistol grips. That doesnt necessarily make that weapon part of the banned list. It has a full stock.

The pistol grip feature that is in question is actually part of many stocks. It has a pistol grip, its part of the shoulder stock also. Precise definitions.... the bane of the gun debate.

[Wickerman]

5. Isn't there an actual list of proposed banned weapons?

seems someone linked to that a few months back. Anyone recall?


edit - added a p to weaons. :eyes:

[goju]

6. Yes

but there is also a list of exempted weapons.

http://feinstein.senate.gov/booklets/assault.pdf

More info on the reauthorization bill

http://www.savetheassaultweaponsban.org/why/legislation.asp

Edit, s.1431 http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query

[slackmaster]

7. List of "exempted" firearms includes bolt-actions

If the proposed ban covers only semiautomatics then why have the authors created what appears to be an attempt to enumerate all sporting firearms that people would be permitted to own by make and model, including single-shot weapons like the Remington Rolling Block rifle?

Seems rather disingenuous to me.

[goju]

8. Marketing

I think they tried to embolden supporters by listing all guns they arent currently targeting. A big impressive list of guns that are safe might just assure some people that "their" weapons are safe.

[FeebMaster]

10. What's really funny about s1431

is that the Street Sweeper and Striker-12 are still listed in it by name.

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

14. You know

If they ban something that is already regulated as a DD, then it is even more illegal! :P

[FeebMaster]

16. Actually, come to think of it, I guess it is.

Since you can't manufacture more Street Sweepers or Striker-12s for civilian use. So while current ones are regulated as DDs there won't be any new ones to register.

[thomas82]

23. Well if Senator Kerry

Would come out and say he supported all gun owners and his support for S1431 was a mistake he might possibly get more gun owner votes.

Anything less will give the freeper sites ammo to base all of their Kerry bashing stories on.

IMO until Senator Kerry stops voting for Anti gun legislation, no gun owner will trust him with their 2nd admendment rights.
Tom

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

11. I wonder

If a firearm is not specifically listed under the protected area, does that mean that they intend to go after it now or sometime in the future?

For example the Remington 700 PSS is not listed, but the 700 VS is listed. They are heavy barreled bolt action rifles, the difference being a more robust stock and an extra swivle on the forearm of a PSS to mount a bipod on. Other than that, they are the same exact weapon.

My Beretta ES100 12 guage also doesn't make the grade either. Nor does my Remington Mohawk 600 bolt rifle. Nor do my two Swedish model 96's make the list.

I think they need to stick to listin what is banned so we can assume if it is not banned it is legal, as it is elsewhere in law.

[FeebMaster]

12. They'll get to those other sniper rifles after they

ban the .50 caliber super sniper rifles.

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

18. I wonder if they will ban

The Tasco Super Sniper scope as "the choice of terrorists and gangsters the world over for sniping". Would be fitting on a .50 caliber "Super Sniper Rifle". :P

[FeebMaster]

19. Yes it will be banned by name.

lol

[DoNotRefill]

38. tasco scope?

BWAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!! :)

[goju]

13. Slippery, aint it?

Rather than hash out all this foolishness, I think they need to use their legislative powers to reduce the gang/drug trade problems first. Education, poverty issues naturally come into play. Rehabilition in prison and drug/alcohol prevention and counseling would also make a nice addition to our "arsenal". Those would be effective and permanent crime reduction measures.

I propose a $20 tax on all new weapons purchases and a $1 tax on ammunition purchases over $10. All that money would be earmarked for the above crime reduction measures. I think you would be hard pressed to find gun owners who wouldnt support such small cost increases. But unfortunately, I think you would be harder pressed to find a legislator who would be willing to even suggest such measures.

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

15. Sure

I'd pay those taxes with no problems, as long as it gets levied on some other recreational items as well. Hunters already foot a huge amount of the upkeep for national wildlife programs through hunting licenses, and with your proposal we'll be paying more money to prevention/rehab programs. Keep adding taxes to the sport and we won't be able to afford to enjoy the sport.

Slippery slope indeed. :P

[goju]

17. True

You make a good point. Just because we are gun owners doesnt mean we should bear the full brunt of the expense. But, a tax of that sort would go a long way in combating the propaganda put out against gun owners.

Alas, I am not a legislator and Im quite sure a few around here are very thankful for that ;)

[FeebMaster]

20. There are already federal taxes on guns and ammo.

11% on long guns and ammo
10% on handguns

[goju]

24. I was referring to a specially earmarked tax

I think Whiskey made a good point that we shouldnt bear the entire cost though. Not that my proposed taxes would even come close to what would be required for my crime reduction suggestions but, it would make a good statement about gun owners' willingness to take proactive measures and bear some sacrifice in combatting crime.

[FeebMaster]

25. If you want money to reduce crime,

end the drug war. That will be tens of billions of dollars a year freed up.

[goju]

27. That was part of my crime reduction idea

A few posts above...Slippery, aint it?

Do you agree that we gun owners need to take the initiative, outside a message board, in combatting the caustic stereotype that has been leveled against us? If so, I think a tax similar to what I proposed would go a long way in helping to defeat the disinformation campaign that has been waged against us.

I know tax increases are never a popular idea but, as Whiskey pointed out, we hunters pay state and federal taxes which are used to protect habitats. Its also a nice little PR tool, I think. Why not adopt that PR model for gun ownership?

[FeebMaster]

28. I think it's a losing battle

Most people don't care enough about the issue to read past the propaganda and let's face it, the gun grabbers have way better propaganda. I think the pro-gun side would be better off getting pro-gun amendments tacked onto any gun grabby legislation that pops up, assuming they have enough support to get it done, which may be questionable.

I can't support a tax of any kind on guns. As it is the price of guns has been driven up through all the legislation that's been passed regulating them. They're too expensive as it is and I'd hate to see their prices go up any more.

[John BigBootay]

30. Definitely a gray area--

I would say that this gun is not banned by 1431, but in a pinch, some silver tongued politician could make the case that it is.

[FeebMaster]

31. I don't think so.

Have you read the definition of pistol grip in the bill?

[John BigBootay]

34. Just the excerpts--

What are you referring to specifically?

[FeebMaster]

35. Here it is.

First of all they took out the "protruding conspicuously below the action" part of the old AWB and just left it as pistol grip. Then it defines pistol grip like so:

(42) PISTOL GRIP- The term `pistol grip' means a grip, a thumbhole stock, or any other characteristic that can function as a grip.

[slackmaster]

36. You'd think they would have learned the pitfalls of vagueness by now

I'm pretty sure none of the authors would really want their proposed legislation to be used somewhere down the road to ban something that just about everyone would agree is a "legitimate" hunting firearm. I'm also pretty sure they didn't intend to provide ammunition that their pro-RKBA rivals of all stripes could use as talking points against their well-intentioned bill. But that's exactly what they did. There was nothing wrong with the old definition of "pistol grip". It wasn't broken, but they tried to fix it anyway.

[FeebMaster]

37. I think in this case

the vagueness works in the ban's favor. I'm not sure I'd even call the new definition of pistol grip vague. It seems pretty clear that it's intent is to define any grip at all as a pistol grip. If the vagueness you're referring to is calling it an assault weapons ban while using it to ban a bunch of hunting weapons, well, the vagueness still works in the ban's favor. Plenty of people will blindly support it because it "bans assault weapons" and find out only too late that it bans a lot more than that.


I'm pretty sure none of the authors would really want their proposed legislation to be used somewhere down the road to ban something that just about everyone would agree is a "legitimate" hunting firearm.

I don't know about that.


I'm also pretty sure they didn't intend to provide ammunition that their pro-RKBA rivals of all stripes could use as talking points against their well-intentioned bill.

Probably not, but people against the bill are fairly easily dismissed and demonized by calling them gun nuts who want machine guns on the streets or whatever. You know, the usual stuff.


There was nothing wrong with the old definition of "pistol grip". It wasn't broken, but they tried to fix it anyway.

Assuming the new definition's affects are accidental, I'd agree. If the author's intention was to ban as many semi-automatic weapons as possible without actually saying you want to ban as many semi-automatic weapons as possible, well, this is a reasonably good way to do it.

[UpsideDownFlag]

21. well, DU generally disregards drudge.

and it doubly disregards crap talk about kerry.

and when drudge is talking crap about kerry, and guns are involved...hoo boy.

[FeebMaster]

22. That's right

just ignore everything else that's been said.

[UpsideDownFlag]

26. why shouldn't I? i try not to give kerry bashers the time of day.

[FeebMaster]

29. I still think it's funny that you think pointing out how

Kerry has voted on legislation is bashing him.

[library_max]

39. Really, really odd

that anyone would be defending John Kerry on DEMOCRATICUnderground, isn't it?

Not at all odd, of course, that someone in JPS is attacking him.

[FeebMaster]

40. Who is attacking him?

Why would I think it odd that people want to defend Kerry? I'm still wondering where these attacks are, though.

[UpsideDownFlag]

52. by agreeing with what drudge says, it tacitly supports his attack on kerry

his website's article was designed to divide and shed bad light on kerry. are you supportive of that, or the alternative- supporting kerry?

[FeebMaster]

53. It's not an all or nothing thing.

Kerry isn't immune to criticism. If you want to unquestioningly follow a candidate that's your business.

[UpsideDownFlag]

54. yes, and leaping to criticize him is the business of others i suppose...

[FeebMaster]

55. What? (nt)

[UpsideDownFlag]

32. no, but drudge uses it that way.

im not going to have a debate about whether or not drudge is a viable source or not.

[FeebMaster]

33. You don't have to debate if Drudge is a viable source.

Unless you're going to make the claim that the picture of Kerry holding the semi-auto shotgun was doctored or that Drudge wrote S.1431.

[LTR]

41. The National Shooting Sports Foundation is now getting a word in

This is a press release, so I'm posting it in it's entirety. Take it with a truckload of salt:

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/040907/nytu290_1.html?printer=1

National Shooting Sports Foundation: Kerry Accepts Shotgun He Would Ban as 'Assault Weapon'
Tuesday September 7, 5:00 pm ET


RACINE, W.Va., Sept. 7 /PRNewswire/ -- The following is a press release regarding the Remington model 11-87 shotgun that Sen. John Kerry recently accepted:
At a Labor Day campaign rally yesterday, Sen. John Kerry accepted an ironic gift from a labor union representative. The gift, a Remington model 11-87 shotgun commonly used in hunting and recreational shooting enjoyed by millions of Americans, would be banned as an "assault weapon" under a bill that Kerry is co-sponsoring.

"The semi-automatic shotgun that Kerry accepted is one that he'd like to ban under his bill known as 'The Assault Weapons Ban and Law Enforcement Protection Act of 2003 (S. 1431).' Kerry tells union workers that he's a hunter, but the truth is he would ban their shotguns," said Lawrence G. Keane, senior vice president and general counsel of the National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF).

Keane said several sportsmen's groups have pointed out that Kerry's effort to cast himself as an avid hunter do not square with his anti-gun votes as a U.S. senator. In various photos Kerry appears unaware of proper firearms handling. The Hunting and Shooting Sports Heritage Fund is advertising in national sportsmen magazines and on the Web site, http://www.voteyoursport.com, to illustrate these points.

Kerry was given the shotgun by Cecil Roberts of the United Mine Workers of America. The union represents workers at a Remington factory in Ilion, New York. Last year the union urged Kerry to support a bill to end frivolous lawsuits against firearms makers (S. 659). The suits threaten manufacturing jobs. However, Kerry voted against the bill.

Remington President Tommy Milner said, "Rest assured, Remington was neither aware of this presentation in advance nor in any way supportive of its intent to support Senator Kerry's candidacy. In fact, the company remains amused by ongoing photos of Senator Kerry shooting without either ear or eye protection while discharging a firearm."

The National Shooting Sports Foundation is the trade association for the companies and businesses that make and sell firearms, ammunition and other products for the 40 million Americans who responsibly hunt and enjoy recreational shooting. Learn more at http://www.nssf.org.

An article on the Drudge Report Web site, http://www.drudgereport.com/dncg.htm, points out the irony of Kerry accepting the shotgun gift given the legislation that he supported.

[Columbia]

42. And the rebuttal...

http://www.commondreams.org/news2004/0907-03.htm

CSGV to Drudge - This Dog Won't Hunt: Internet gossip Matt Drudge offered Tortured and Misleading Explanation of Bill Kerry Supports

WASHINGTON - September 7 - The Coalition to Stop Gun Violence (CSGV) today responded to the tortured and misleading accusation offered by Internet scribe Matt Drudge over John Kerry's acceptance of a firearm.

At a campaign stop in Racine, WV, United Mine Workers (UMW) President Cecil Roberts presented Kerry with a Remington shotgun. Underneath a photo of Kerry with the gun, Drudge asked on his website, "Was Dem presidential hopeful John Kerry seen this weekend waving a gun which would have been banned if legislation he co-sponsored became law?"

The answer is no, he was not.

Drudge erroneously reported that the firearm Kerry accepted was a Browning Auto-5. In actuality, it was a Remington 1100 Sporting 12, a popular hunting rifle.

More importantly, S. 1431, the legislation Drudge refers to, in no way affects legitimate hunting weapons like the Remington presented to Kerry. The bill only outlaws military-style firearms, the guns of choice for criminals.

...

[LTR]

43. Thanks!

Common Dreams is a great site.

[FeebMaster]

44. I always though cheap handguns and 12 gauge shotguns

were the guns of choice for criminals. I guess you learn something new everyday.

[Columbia]

45. Sorry sir, you are mistaken

Gangbanger #1: Hey homie, check out this new rifle I gots yo!

Gangbanger #2: Not bad, not bad. Wait a sec... IS THAT A BAYONET LUG I SEE ON THAT THING???

Gangbanger #1: It sure is!

Gangbanger #2: I been trying to get a pre-ban one for ages man!

Gangbanger #1: Don't be tripping, fool! The bayonet lug makes it twice as powerful and ten times as deadly!

Gangbanger #2: Yo, is it true the round will go forever?

Gangbanger #1: For sure. It will travel around the world like the moon until it hits something.

Gangbanger #2: Oh man, I got to get me one of these!

Gangbanger #1: Don't worry, those fools in Congress are letting the Assault Weapon Ban expire next week, so you can get one a lot easier now!

Gangbanger #2: Alright! I can't wait! Where do I get one?

Gangbanger #1: On September 14th, they'll be laying all over the streets, they're throwing them out like the morning paper man.

Gangbanger #2: Sweeet! The blood is going to run in the streets!!!

[FeebMaster]

46. *cough*

Man that .223s go forever thing never gets old.

[FatSlob]

51. It could ban.

It has been procured for law enforcement use, therefore it could be banned under the bill the Senator Kerry cosponsored.

[jody]

47. S. 1431 appears to ban the type shotgun Kerry was given

S. 1431 Title: A bill to reauthorize the assault weapons ban, and for other purposes.

Under Sec.2.Definitions
QUOTE
`(L) A semiautomatic rifle or shotgun originally designed for military or law enforcement use, or a firearm based on the design of such a firearm, that is not particularly suitable for sporting purposes, as determined by the Attorney General. In making the determination, there shall be a rebuttable presumption that a firearm procured for use by the United States military or any Federal law enforcement agency is not particularly suitable for sporting purposes, and a firearm shall not be determined to be particularly suitable for sporting purposes solely because the firearm is suitable for use in a sporting event.'.
UNQUOTE

The Remington model 11-87, see link below, is used by law enforcement and under the bill it appears it is presumed to be a semiautomatic shotgun that would be banned.

Remington 11-87 Shotgun Product Information

[mosin]

48. Uh oh

Now you've done it. You've "attacked Kerry" again! ;)

You're right though. S.1431 would ban the Remington 11-87 under both provisions. The CSGV is lying when it says that S.1431 would not affect sporting shotguns and rifles. It was drafted to appear to be a ban on military-style rifles with the zinger hidden in the definitions.

Kerry just needs to make his position clear. I heard his spokesman say last night that he does not support banning that shotgun. In that case, Kerry should withdraw his co-sponsorship of S.1431.

Anyway, he was given the shotgun as a gift. It wasn't like he went out and bought an evil "assault weapon" on his own.

[jody]

49. I understand, and as you point out, the danger is in the definitions

I agree with you that Kerry needs to withdraw as a sponsor of S.1431.

And while he is doing that, he might clarify his understanding of the current Democratic Party Platform that says "We will protect Americans' Second Amendment right to own firearms, and we will keep guns out of the hands of criminals and terrorists by fighting gun crime, reauthorizing the assault weapons ban, and closing the gun show loophole, as President Bush proposed and failed to do."

:hi:

[Romulus]

50. good catch

I forgot about that "government procurement" provision.

What's sad is that I criticized that bill S.1431 before on those grounds.

(link with photos)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=82321#82394


My memory sure is getting bad:hangover:


Anyway, I disagree on Kerry's intent concerning the "pistol grip" banning issue, but agree that the anti-gun-owner crowd has that intent of reading the "pistol grip" definition as broadly as possible.