Kerry's stance on guns will hurt him.

[ranosgol]

I just hope not enough to turn the election over for Bush but at least he did not cave and take some grey area middle road.

[CarolynEC]

1. Not so sure about that.

He wasn't going to get the NRA/Angry White Male vote anyway.

[ranosgol]

5. Ia agree he will get that vote but some people will think he is weak.

[CarolynEC]

18. Some people will be irrational...

... no matter what anyone says or does. No sense trying to pander to them.

[veteran_for_peace]

2. How?

Most NRA members are not going to vote for Bush? I don't think that being a hunter is a negative thing.

[Dookus]

3. why would it hurt him?

support for the ban is overwhelming. Even a majority of GUN OWNERS support renewing the ban.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A60579-2004Jul18.html

[derby378]

9. If the majority support the AWB...

...let them amend or repeal the 2nd Amendment. I may bitch about it, but at least it'll be the eternal law of the land.

[Dookus]

29. nice deflection

but it doesn't answer the question. Why would it hurt him in the election if the vast majority of Americans agree with his position?

As to the 2nd Amendment, do you believe it gives citizens the right to own nuclear weapons?

[derby378]

33. Deflections?

Why would it hurt him in the election if the vast majority of Americans agree with his position?

The Southern states. Kerry needs every last state he can for the Electoral College. If the Repubs paint him as a gun-grabber, no matter unfair the characterization, Alabama and Mississippi will vote Bush faster than you can say "Diebold."

As to the 2nd Amendment, do you believe it gives citizens the right to own nuclear weapons?

That argument is somewhat counter-productive to me. Personally, I don't think any single man should own a device that could destroy an entire city. An AK-47, however, never can and never will.

I believe in keeping our government on its toes. I'm an anti-war activist, I deplore human rights abuses, etc. But maybe I've seen too many regimes throughout history where unarmed citizens are relegated to little more than serfs. I don't want that for us - not now, not ever.

[Dookus]

39. The reason I bring up

the obviously excessive issue of owning nukes is to determine whether you believe the 2nd amendment should have ANY limits. It appears you DO think it should have limits, and we're then just discussing where the line is drawn.

I have seen no information that says a majority of Southerners oppose the ban. In fact, 68% of voters in West Virginia support its renewal. 81% of likely voters in Florida support its renewal.

Also, Alabama and Mississippi are voting for Bush anyway. Do you REALLY believe Kerry could win those states if he opposed the ban?

Finally, since Bush also supports the ban, why does HE gain from it while Kerry loses?

[TruthIsAll]

59. LOL. Kerry wouldn't carry AL or MS if he was for personal A-bombs.

He is appealing to the majority voters in the Battleground States, who are against assault weapons.

Bush is going to be hoisted on his own NRA petard.

[MrSandman]

61. the 32% who oppose will vote the issue...nt

[bigdogblues]

34. What if they repeal the 1st Amendment?

How would that go over as the eternal law of the land?

[library_max]

42. According to US v. Miller (1939),

the Second Amendment applies only to the militia. And more recent decisions (Hickman and Silveira) clarify that you have to actually be enlisted in an active state or federal militia, not just be an "able-bodied male" capable of serving in a militia if one were to be organized.

So worry not! The Second Amendment doesn't apply to you! (since, at present, there is no active state or federal armed citizen militia, unless you count the National Guard and state guard units).

[Vulture]

57. You are technically incorrect

"Militia" has been legally defined in the US since the 18th century, and is currently defined in 10 USC 311, which basically includes all males ages 17-44 inclusive. If you are an adult male, you are automatically a member of the militia per statutes for most intents and purposes. Supreme Court decisions have explicitly made distinctions between the statutory "unorganized" Militia and Federal military service (Regular, Reserve, and Guard -- all of which are considered Federal and "organized" per the courts), as the distinction matters in some contexts. Different States interpret this differently for their own purposes, and some States support your definition, but there is no Federal definition that mandates this interpretation.

So for general Federal statutory purposes, 10 USC 311 defines the militia, which means that the 2nd Amendment applies to everyone whether they are part of an organized military unit or not. Some States may have less inclusive definitions, but this is by no means universal. Muddiness has been created in that there are conflicts between court districts and the Supreme Court is not terribly interested in addressing those conflicts.

10 USC 311 is part of the reason the draft is legal. You are part of the unorganized militia whether you know it or not, and that status is defined by the fact that you meet the other criteria and that you are NOT part of a Federal military service (Regular, Reserve, or State Guard).

[library_max]

60. You need to read the Hickman and Silveira decisions.

From Hickman:

"The Second Amendment creates a right, not a duty. It does not oblige the states to keep an armed militia, n7 or to arm their citizens generally, although some states do preserve, nominally at least, a broad individual right to bear arms as a foundation for their state militia. n8 See, e.g., People v. Blue, 190 Colo. 95, 544 P.2d 385 (Colo. 1975) (en banc) (citing Colo. <**12> Const. art. II, § 13) (recognizing individual right to bear arms under state constitution); State v. Amos, 343 So. 2d 166, 168 (La. 1977) (citing La. Const. art I, § 11) (same proposition); State v. Krantz, 24 Wash. 2d 350, 164 P.2d 453 (Wash. 1945) (citing Wash. Const. art I, § 24) (same proposition); Akron v. Williams, 113 Ohio App. 293, 177 N.E.2d 802 (Ohio Ct. App. 1966) (citing Ohio Const. art. I, § 4) (same proposition). Even in states which profess to maintain a citizen militia, an individual may not rely on this fact to manipulate the Constitution's legal injury requirement by arguing that a particular weapon of his admits some military use, or that he himself is a member of the armed citizenry from which the state draws its militia."

From Silveira:

"Our conclusion that "militia" refers to a state entity, a state fighting force, is also supported by the use of <**41> that term in another of the provisions of the Bill of Rights. The Fifth Amendment, enacted <*1071> by the First Congress at the same time as the Second Amendment, provides that a criminal defendant has a right to an indictment or a presentment "except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger . . . ." U.S. CONST. amend. V. The inclusion of separate references to the "land or naval forces" and "the Militia," both of which may be in "actual service" to the nation's defense, indicates that the framers conceived of two formal military forces that would be active in times of war -- one being the national army and navy, and the other the federalized state militia. Certainly, the use of "militia" in this provision of the Bill of Rights is most reasonably understood as referring to a state entity, and not to the collection of individuals who may participate in it."

[bobbyboucher]

4. Goddamn, the level of

bullshit flying around this place these days is utterly astounding. Most people support the ban, mensa. His stance will WIN the election for him.

Do you have somplace that I can send a donation?

[bigdogblues]

36. Most people also support banning gay marriage, mensa

Would a stance like that by Kerry WIN the election for Kerry?

Donation for what?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

37. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

:boring:

[Romulus]

6. we'll see

his vote on S.1431 certainly won't help (since it would ban the shotgun he happily accepted from those union guys in WVA).

I don't know about the effect of his AWB stance.
Not many of those people polled in support of the AWB know that the AWB had nothing to do with machine guns.

[Lefty48197]

21. Kerry supports banning shotguns?

Ridiculous.
The AWB has nothing to do with machine guns? Even though the NRA teaches it's members how to convert their ar15's into full auto?
Ridiculous again.

[Romulus]

26. sorry to break it to you

the semi-auto shotgun he received from those union guys would be banned under S.1431 because some police department, somewhere, has adopted that particular model semi-auto shotgun for their patrol use.

What's rediculous is to pull a "The Village" and make stuff up about the NRA instead of addressing the actual wrongdoing that the NRA engages in. (Like wheh the go around making stuff up about Kerry's voting record).

Even though the NRA teaches it's members how to convert their ar15's into full auto?

Can I get some that stuff you're on? That must be the shizntit!!:smoke::smoke:

[bigdogblues]

38. The NRA teaches it's members how to convert their ar15's into full auto?

Could you provide a link or point to something that back up your assertion?

[UpsideDownFlag]

63. we could, but you wouldn't find it useful

hard for granite to read.

[FeebMaster]

54. Only semi-automatic ones.

LOL with the NRA stuff. Seriously. You should show us a link to that information so we can all enjoy it.

[LittleClarkie]

22. That wasn't the same kind of gun

I'd have to find the link, but I read that the kind of gun that will be banned was different from the one he was handed. Something about the stock or something being of a different type. It was a gun guy who pointed out that if you know your guns, then you recognize the difference. I'd have to take his word for it.

[CarinKaryn]

24. B.S.

Quit saying that. They gave him a shotgun for deer hunting not a streetsweeper.

You know what you said is b.s. Why do you keep repeating it? Whose side are you on?

[Romulus]

27. It's no BS

we hashed this out in the Gungeon.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x84881#84887

Even though that semi-auto shotgun didn't have a pistol grip, it would still have been banned under S.1431 because some government agency, somewhere, uses it.

I don't think Kerry intended that, but that is what the bill said.

[MrBenchley]

35. Rom, that's not what the bill says

and you know it....

[library_max]

43. That's your interpretation of the bill.

We "hashed it out" in the Gungeon, but we didn't come to an agreement, and remember that the Gungeon, unlike GD 2004 or the electorate at large, is overwhelmingly pro-RKBA.

[FeebMaster]

48. Yeah.

Of course, as usual, none of the gun control supporters bothered to read the bill so we got nowhere. If they had, they would have read the inventive new definition of pistol grip S. 1431 contains.

Here it is again:

(42) PISTOL GRIP- The term `pistol grip' means a grip, a thumbhole stock, or any other characteristic that can function as a grip.


(H) A semiautomatic shotgun that has--

`(i) a folding or telescoping stock;
`(ii) a pistol grip;
`(iii) the ability to accept a detachable magazine; or
`(iv) a fixed magazine capacity of more than 5 rounds.


Clearly the shotgun Kerry accepted is semi-automatic and has any other characteristic that can function as a grip.

[Romulus]

55. what other interpretation is there?

Relevent text of the bill (apologies to Jody for cribbing his post):

Under Sec.2.Definitions
QUOTE
`(L) A semiautomatic rifle or shotgun originally designed for military or law enforcement use, or a firearm based on the design of such a firearm, that is not particularly suitable for sporting purposes, as determined by the Attorney General. In making the determination, there shall be a rebuttable presumption that a firearm procured for use by the United States military or any Federal law enforcement agency is not particularly suitable for sporting purposes, and a firearm shall not be determined to be particularly suitable for sporting purposes solely because the firearm is suitable for use in a sporting event.'.
UNQUOTE

The Remington model 11-87, see link below, is used by law enforcement and under the bill it appears it is presumed to be a semiautomatic shotgun that would be banned.

http://www.remingtonle.com/shotguns/1187.htm

Picture of Kerry's 11-87:

http://www.remington.com/firearms/shotguns/1187prlc.htm

[library_max]

56. A) note the phrase "Federal law enforcement agency".

B) also note the phrase "rebuttable presumption." That means that if there is sufficient evidence that the firearm is used primarily for sporting purposes, it can still be cleared under the bill.

As for the links, the gun in the first link hardly resembles the gun in the second. And have you ascertained as a matter of proven fact that the gun John Kerry received was a Remington 11-87 (it certainly was not the "law enforcement version"), or is that just conjecture?

[MrSandman]

72. Streetsweeper is a destructive device...

Regulated under NFA of 1934.

[Beetwasher]

7. Uhh, How So?

Bush ALSO says he supports the ban, though he didn't lift a finger to do anything about it.

Why do you think Bush publically says he supports it?

I'll give you a clue Einstein: their internal polls show it is VERY popular with MOST people.

[The_Casual_Observer]

8. Well, then so be it.

Assault rifles have no place in a civilized society. Period.

[MrBenchley]

10. I doubt that very much....

the overwhelming majority of voters favor gun control....and the ones that oppose it were never going to vote Democratic anyway.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

11. Right. Whatever you say.

[faithnotgreed]

12. look at www.ontheissues.org its a nonpartisan site that says more

people agree with kerrys stance on gun "control". it wasnt by very much but a little. you should check this site out. its really good

[kstewart33]

13. It won't hurt him if

Kerry makes the case that assault weapons will help terrorists in this country kill more Americans. It gives terrorists access to the weapons they need. They don't have to smuggle them in; they're right here.

Most police associations support the ban, most people support the ban.

Bush on assault weapons = weak on terrorism.

[Renew Deal]

14. Maybe with the gun nuts

who aren't voting for him anyway. A police union endorsed him today because of it.

[seabeyond]

15. he's is a democrat after all. further my repug husband

nra card holder, hunter, gun owner texan doesnt have an issue at all with this law

i dont know the feel of others like husband. i will ask how his people, lol lol feel, but since he is so middle of the road, normal type dude i would think he thinks along the lines of most gun tootin, nra card holdin, hunter

[Lefty48197]

16. Kerry sure blew it with the KKK, NRA, skinheads, militia etc.

.

[CarolynEC]

20. Dang! There goes our whole "new voter" effort!

LOL! :D

[Darby]

17. As I parent I sure am so very happy the assault weapons ban was lifted!

I'm sure most parents agree with me, that it makes them feel safer to know that even more dangerous weapons are out there.

I see the point of your post - let's throw away our principles for political expediency. Sounds good! And let's talk about how this makes us schmucks, because that is productive AND helpful.

New addition to my ignore list being made now...

[derby378]

23. Do you want to child-proof America?

I'm sorry, I respect that you want to protect your children and keep them safe. But the AWB didn't really do anything to achieve that.

[DaveinMD]

19. the polls are on our side

but the intensity of the issue is on the other side. People that vote on the guns issue are against gun control laws. Its a shame, but its true. Furthermore, many of these voters could be ours if not for this issue. Many blue collar workers are lost to us because of this issue.

[derby378]

25. Not just the intensity - but also Amendment II (n/t)

[Dookus]

40. Do you believe

the 2nd Amendment prevents the government from prohibiting ANY weaponry?

[library_max]

45. The Second Amendment only provides RKBA for members of the militia.

As per US v. Miller, Hickman v. Block, Silveira v. Lockyer.

[ranosgol]

28. I live in Indiana the RED state of the Midwest.

GUNS GODS AND GAYS

These are the ONLY issues that matter here.

:)

[2Design]

30. OMG - Kerry's big hair will hurt him - OMG - Kerry's tone of voice

will hurt him OMG - Kerry being Kerry will hurt him - OMG the sky is falling - OMG it is sunny out today and that will hurt Kerry - OMG it is raining out today and that will hurt Kerry - OMG Kerry has a bounce and that will hurt Kerry - OMG Kerry ......OMG Kerry .....OMG Kerry

obviously I have seen one too many OMG Kerry .........threads....

[Ducks In A Row]

31. the first time assault weapons are used to kill anyone

All Kerry has to do is point to bush and say bush killed those people.

doesn't matter if it's true, just that it's the only answer to any question about anything asked of any of kerry's people.

Q: so what about iraq?
A: Bush's obsession with iraq killed those people with those assault weapons because he was too busy to renew the ban.

Q: so what about the economy?
A: The assault weapon makers are making lots of bucks with those weapons that killed those people because bush couldn't be bothered to renew the ban.

[bigdogblues]

32. All the news is leading off with Kerry blasting the gun ban expiration

I should help bring out the gun-ban voters. I wonder if it will wake up any sleeping gun owners?

[Dookus]

41. well

since gun owners support the ban, too, it's likely to help Kerry.

[Czolgosz]

44. Support for the AWB does not equate to an abridgment of

the second amendment any more than support for libel laws is an abridgment of the first amendment. You have the freedom of speech, but you are not allowed to scream "fire!" in a crowded theater and you may have the right to bear arms, but you are not allowed to shoot an assault rifle in your backyard. Liberty and common sense are not mutually exclusive.

By the way, it is not clear that the second amendment enshrines individual rights; many constitutional scholars believe it is a community right to raise a militia and not an individual right.

[library_max]

46. He should be fine as long as he sticks to supporting the AWB

or a strengthened version thereof. The AWB is overwhelmingly popular across the electorate. The NRA is going to lie about him and spend big bucks to defeat him anyway, no matter what he says or doesn't say about guns.

[rullery]

47. Kerry showed some courage standing up to the NRA.

Bush did not, caving in to their desire to do away with the AWB. While some may think that this will hurt Kerry, I disagree. Instead it shows him to be a man of principle. At the same time Kerry made it clear that he is a hunter himself, and has no intention of banning hunting rifles and shotguns. The police sure don't want to have to shoot it out with crazies armed with automatic weapons, and Kerry won the police officers' endorsement.

Come the election in November, a lot of parents who might otherwise vote for Bush may reconsider and vote for Kerry, to keep their children safe from gun violence IMO. As for the extreme macho crowd that thinks they need automatic assault weapons to prove their manhood, Bush already has their votes; and he is welcome to them.

[elperromagico]

49. Don't 68% of Americans support renewing the assault weapons ban?

Seems to me that Kerry's position on this issue is very much in the mainstream - like most of his views, and unlike most of Bush's.

[liberal N proud]

50. I saw a poll on CNN yesterday that said 75% support think the laps of the

ban is wrong.
It is just that the gun lobby is loud and will make out like Kerry is going to come and take all your guns away.
Kerry owns guns himself, just not AK-47's

[napi21]

51. I don't like it! I kept saying the Dems should leave this alone to die!

Like it or not, lots of people are really radical about their guns! They're actually worse about them than they are about some of other wedge issues like abortion and gays.

It took me 4 years to convince my son the Shrub shouldn't be in the WH. Well, guess why he was against Gore in 2000? The GUN issue!!!

He doesn't have any assault weapons, and rarely even takes the 2 guns he owns out of his locked cabinet. That's not the point with him. He doesn't want some Gov't official telling him what he can and can't own. Believe me, he's not alone with that thinking! I almost cried when I heard the Kerry speech today.

[w4rma]

52. Big media seem to support the AWB from what I can tell.

A majority of the public support the AWB as well, it appears. So, this issue probably won't hurt him. However, I don't like his position on it, although I am happy to see Bush called a flip-flopper over it.

[Quixote1818]

53. It helps Kerry big time with women!

[necso]

58. His is an interesting tactic.

But on an entirely different subject (temporarily -- and on a strictly philosophical note).

...

I just love good intentions, and they have one interesting attribute. Good intentions can be attributed to just about anybody: to George W Bush; to Pat Buchanan; to Colin Powell; to Ralph Nader; to David Cobb; or to Ted Rall.

But what matters is what happens.

And if a person fails to manipulate things in accordance with his "principles" (or is too busy pontificating to even try), then, from a net effects point of view, these "principles" are just a pretense. Personally, I would even go so far as to derive a person's actual (not supposed) principles from the net effects of his actions.

Now, it often makes people uncomfortable to be looked at from this point of view, since all too often what they say and what they do (net effects) are entirely different things (indeed, sometimes even polar opposites). However, I find this perspective most illuminating, even if it leaves me unable to completely distinguish the various overlapping subclasses of the "polar opposites" people: the "good intentioned"; the emotionally immature; the undisciplined; the shallow; the deluded; the delusional; the "detached"; the thoughtless; the self absorbed; wishful "thinkers"; assorted forms of the "ass"; fools; idiots; the stupid; the ignorant; the incompetent; the merely hypocritical; frauds; and both casual and paid traitors. (etc. etc.)

And I guess that this is a pretty grim view of life -- but things might be rather different if more people held to it.

And lest anyone should take this as being critical of our candidate, it is not. I know him to be a knowledgeable, wise, perceptive, practical and effective man. -- Hard things to combine with vision, certainly, but strangely enough some people manage to do so. And I can also appreciate that a public man has to go a step further than this and manage "appearances". But this is nothing that I would know anything more about.

...

And what was the subject, again?

Oh, yes. I expect that this will have about the same net effect as President Bush's similar stance -- on the already dead "AWB". What other net effects it will have remains to be seen, and we can deal with these net effects in their own time. But if one were to look for historical examples, well, one especially comes to mind.

And, of course, personally, I favored extending the "Ban" until a better, economically focused and practical bill could be worked out.

But this is just me. And I believe that we can have guns, good jobs and security... For this is an issue with more than one dimension. But then again, is there really any other kind?

[UpsideDownFlag]

62. you know what hurts him?

threads like this.

[peaceandjustice]

64. 6 reasons Kerry's stance on the AWB will help him

1. Bush flip-flopped on this issue. Bush said he'd renew the ban if it came to his desk, but with GOP majorities in both houses he made no effort to convince congress to send him a renewal.

2. Bush refuses to answer questions about the expiration. He looks indecisive and weak ducking questions.

3. Kerry can argue that Bush is too beholden to the gun lobby to keep assault weapons out of terrorist hands. Wait for the Kerry or MoveOn.org ad with a frightening-looking terrorist buying an assault weapon.

4. The single-issue pro-RKBA voters weren't voting for Kerry anyways.

5. The ban was particularly popular in the precincts Kerry needs, suburban Philly, suburban Columbus and Cleveland, etc.

6. The two largest police organizations support renewing the ban.

[anonymous44]

65. if democratic party was not so anti

then we wouldn't even have to worry about bush or for that matter any republican winning a white house. people have pointed out (even anti gun crowd) that a lot of people who vote republican do so based on one sole issue (guns). different sources estimate gun owners in america between 40 to 80 million. all of them are eligible to vote because they are old enough and passed a background check. now think about it. all that republican party has to do is to show how democratic party has been limiting gun ownership. a lot of them will get up and vote against us. if it wasn't the case, then a lot of them would vote for us.

[MrBenchley]

66. What a pantload...the gun nuts will never vote Democratic

they hate blacks, gays, Jews and uppity women more than they love those guns....

[anonymous44]

67. proof

can you prove that gun nuts are racist?
if all gun nuts were racist, then i'm sure there would be hate crimes on a daily basis.

[MrBenchley]

68. Asks the guy currently trying to peddle a racist essay...

[anonymous44]

69. as i said

prove that the article is racist.
no where in that article i see a single racial slur.
obviously you're dodging the bigger bullet here

[MrBenchley]

70. It's a racist article, whether you want to pretend you don't see it or not

Of course you also wanted to own a slave...

[anonymous44]

71. ............

i said i wanted to own you as a slave in a joking manner and you are crying here trying to make me look like a racist in order to avoid the point of the article.

good riddance