So, I went to buy a .22 rifle for my father-in-law yesterday

[Squatch]

just wanted to get a stock Ruger 10/22...nothing special. Semi-auto, fun to shoot, just a little plinking gun he can bust cans and bottles with.

So, I go to the counter and proceed to fill out the federal form 4473 (initiates the background check). It requires one piece of identification, which I dutifully hand to the clerk. No problem. Pass the background check right away and pay the $2.00

Then, we come to the VA form. "I'm going to need a second piece of identification, please." So, I hand over my reserve military ID. "can't take it...do you have another?" I hand over my student ID card. Nope. My work badge. Nope. My PADI Master Diver ID card. Nope. My insurance cards. Nope. A picture of me and my wife in Victoria, British Columbia. Nope.

I finally ask what will work for ID. He said anything like my checkbook (which has an address on it), a utility bill, or anything with my address on it (that *any* body else...banks, the cable guy, my neighbor) printed on it.

I really wasn't annoyed. He's going to hold the rifle until I come back. We both had a little chuckle and shook our heads at the utter idiocy of it. The only thing holding up the sale was a utility bill.

Anyways, that was the first time I've been denied a sale of a firearm, ever. And it was not because of anything I did, just the massive bureaucratic mess that has resulted over the past umpteen years (especially since 9/11).

[Buzz Clik]

1. Bummer.

You can buy a fully automatic assault rifle in Texas with about the same amount of hassle.

[Squatch]

2. Ho-kay

not sure I agree with that.

[Buzz Clik]

3. Longer waiting period (maybe), ...

more thorough background check (maybe), but you can get ten times the weapon for about the same hassle.

[Squatch]

4. Ah...this is the first gun I've tried to buy in a long, long time

and things have definitely changed. I remember when you could order guns from Sears.

[alwynsw]

11. Not to rain on your parade, but

The Federal check can take up to a year and there's also that pesky letter from your local sheriff , judge, or police chief in order to buy a full auto weapon. NFA and the '88 Reagan abortion fixed that up nicely.
There's no way you can easily obtain a full auto or select fire weapon in the U.S. as easily as you imply.

[enfield collector]

5. I call bullshit on this. you forgot about the fingerprinting,

FBI background check, CLEO sign off and the $200 fee. total time for this procedure runs from 3-6 months as well. and since this is federal it doesn't matter where in the country you do it, providing of course your state allows class 3 weapons.

[Buzz Clik]

6. So where's the bullshit?

[enfield collector]

29. in reply #1

[Billy Ruffian]

23. Buying a full auto

is a lot more hassle.

You need permission from your county sheriff or chief of police
and you need to pay the $200 tax stamp to the Treasury Dept.

and there might be other requirements, too.

[slackmaster]

28. Others have pointed out the federal B/G check, CLEO signoff, and $200 fee

Nobody has bothered to mention the ridiculously inflated price you'd have to pay for any full-auto weapon due to the 1986 ban on new ones for other than police or military.

Full-auto weapons have truly become toys for the wealthy. It's classist and racist.

[Mark H]

32. Bullshit.

[ROC]

33. Where?

[iverglas]

7. standard ID

I recently replaced my Ontario Health Card -- the last one went west when my purse was stolen, and had since expired anyway, and I'd been walking around technically without medical coverage for a year or two, after I'd been instructed by registered mail to go get my picture taken for the new generation of health ID cards.

(This became necessary a while ago because of all the health fraud here, what with USAmericans crossing the border, and people who are illegally in Canada, begging, borrowing and stealing Cdn health cards to get medical care free of charge in Canada.)

I first needed two proofs of identity. A birth certificate would do for one ... except (I thought) mine was in the stolen purse. It turns out that getting a replacement here now requires the same rigamarole as getting a passport -- including having a "guarantor" of my identity such as a member of a self-governing profession (doctor, lawyer), or a holder of public office, sign my application -- and takes longer. My passport itself was too long expired to work as proof of identity. Kept putting it off, finally went to check my passport, and lo, there was my birth certificate in the passport holder. Phew.

I needed a second proof of identity. Driver's licence w/picture worked for that. A card with a signature, like a credit card, would also have worked.

I next needed proof of residence. To be covered by the Ontario health plan, one doesn't need to be a Canadian citizen, but one does need to have lawful permanent residence (or temporary residence with work or school authorization) in Canada *and* actual residence in Ontario. Driver's licence would work, but not if it was already used for proof of identity. So a utility bill was needed for that purpose too.

That's the thing, you see. The utility bill (or lease, or driver's licence, I would think) is proof of residence. Residence is required for my provincial health plan, and I gather it's required for your firearms purchase.

So the requirement may look idiotic to the layperson, but it appears to be there to prevent non-residents of the state from purchasing firearms there. A non-resident could go to the bother of renting an apartment in the state and hooking up a phone in order to acquire a firearm there, but probably won't.

[Squatch]

8. I understood why I have to establish residence...

I just had to shake my head that my checkbook, among other items, would have sufficed for address verfication. I wonder if a picture of me holding the "SOLD" sign in front of my house would have sufficed for proof of residence? LOL

[iverglas]

10. "proof"

There aren't a lot of things in this world that can actually be proved, y'know.

You're lucky that the guy didn't ask you to prove that you exist. ;)

(One day, Descartes was on an airplane taking his first vacation in years. The flight attendant came along and said: "Would you like coffee, or tea?" Descartes said: "Oh, I think not." And poof! he disappeared.)

I'd first thought of taking my municipal tax bill as proof of residence, but then I realized that I could own and be paying taxes on a property in Ontario and still be living in Alberta. Much less likely that I'd be paying a phone bill here if I didn't live here. And the exercise is actually one in establishing the increasingly high probability that one is who one says one is (I might have just found the driver's licence of someone who looks exactly like me, although given that I look like a conehead alien in my recent photo because the MOT worker had me tilt my head down to avoid glasses-flash and we got big-forehead distortion instead), and probability that one lives where one says one does (if I were desperate for health coverage, I might indeed rent an apt. and hook up a phone in Ontario to get it).

For the chequebook, the assumption is that the bank went to some degree of effort to establish that you live at the place shown on your cheques before handing them out to you, and reliance is placed on that effort.

Most of what we do in life comes down to relying on the integrity of somebody else. If we didn't trust the way other people do things, to a large extent, we'd never buy meat in a grocery store for fear that meat packers were flouting the rules and marketing tainted meat to make a buck, or walk on a sidewalk for fear that someone would just run over us at an intersection to get where s/he was going faster.

Getting a guarantor of one's identity relies on the extra integrity of members of self-governing professions -- they actually police the integrity of their members, and so their members have special incentives not to lie. But they're still corruptible, so a guarantor's statement isn't "proof" either.

I actually find this stuff very interesting. Ultimately, the only guarantee of every one of our very rights and freedoms isn't the piece of paper that they're written on, it's the integrity and goodwill of everybody else. As the GBLT community in the US today well knows, and as have many others in various places and times, the writing on that piece of paper can be changed, or simply ignored, by people without integrity and goodwill.

[Fulcrum]

16. Hold on

Doesn't your drivers license establish residence? It's illegal to have one from more than one state, and you are required to have it changed within 2 weeks (depends on local laws) of changing residences. That seems pretty proof-positive of someones current residence to me. A utility bill can also be easily forged, unlike other official documentations of identity.

[iverglas]

19. overkill

If I used my driver's licence as one of two proofs of identity, I needed a separate proof of residence.

(Squatch didn't mention a driver's licence as one of the things he used, so I wondered whether it could have been used to prove residence, too.)

Actually, I think I used my birth certificate + credit card (signature) for identity, and did use my driver's licence for residence, just having dug them all out first and so not needing the utility bill I'd hauled along. (Some people don't have driver's licences, and that can be problematic in these situations. I only got mine, when I ws 27, back in the days before debit cards, so that I could write cheques in stores.) Here's what the horse's mouth in my case says:

http://www.health.gov.on.ca/english/public/program/ohip/ohipfaq_dt.html#Q4

When applying for a new health card, you must bring three original documents to prove citizenship/immigration status, residency in Ontario and identity.

Urgh. I got my instructions over the phone, but there's supposed to be a PDF document at that site listing acceptable documents, except it isn't there.

I guess the birth certificate + driver's licence = citizenship/immigration status (born in Canada, still legally resident here, presumption still a citizen), the birth certificate + credit card/signature = identity, and the driver's licence (or utility bill, if no driver's licence) = actual residence.

[Squatch]

20. Oops...sorry...yes I used my driver's license as one form

of ID to establish residence.

[Romulus]

9. VA requires 2 forms of ID

While I lived there, your car registration would suffice for the 2d ID. There was a whole list of "approved" documents you could use, including a VA CHP.

[alwynsw]

12. What a pantload!

(I just knew some of you were longing for a pantload in a post.)

VA must have some strange requirements. I've legally bought long guns from dealers in several states with nothing more than my driver's license. That's all the Fed requires. Same with handguns except that I carried the long guns out and the handguns had to be shipped to a KY FFL.

[JeebusB]

21. VA evidently has some weird firearms laws.

All this BS to buy the thing.

But their carry laws are more "liberal" than most states. Last I heard, you could carry openly without a license. (This may have changed in recent years, but I'm too lazy to look it up right now.)

[Squatch]

22. No BS...and frankly I'm glad they're so specific on their

requirements to establish (thanks, iverglas) identity and residence.

[alwynsw]

13. STRAW PURCHASE!!!!

Call Sarah Brady!!!!

[slackmaster]

15. Not a straw purchase, just a gift

It's legal to buy a firearm with the intent to give it to someone else. You just can't buy it with their money just to avoid having their background checked.

But I'm pretty sure you knew that, alywnsw.

:toast:

[alwynsw]

27. It's kind of slow and benign down here lately.

Just trying to liven things up. I forgot my smiley in that post. Damn!

[slackmaster]

14. It's worse in California - and that's a nice gift!

We have additional questions to answer and have to provide two pieces of corroborating proof of residence in addition to a state-issued ID or driver's license. I use utility bills and a vehicle registration card.

We also have a trigger lock requirement, but if you swear on a stack of Bibles that you have a gun safe that meets a particular specification and give the make and model you don't have to buy a trigger lock.

We also have a 10-day wait here, which makes no sense for a buyer who already owns over 30 firearms. :D

[Squatch]

18. I've always been a fan of the 10/22

I just have a piece of junk .22 LR bolt action that's a million years old. One of these days, I'm going to have to buy a Ruger for myself.

[Fulcrum]

24. Do yourself a favor

and get a Volquartsen hammer for that Ruger. It gets rid of the heavyness and grit, all for $30. Probably the best money you could ever spend on a stock 10/22.

[TX-RAT]

25. Never owned a 10-22

Do have a Thompson Center Classic that shoots pretty well. It seemed to do a great job on Bull Frogs this summer. Mmmmmmm Frog Legs.
My other 22 is a Winchester Model 61 pump.

[GregW]

30. I just bought a 10/22T and can't wait to shoot it

It has an 'improved?!?' trigger and bull barrel

I just ordered a Fajen Silhouette stock for it and will probably pickup the scope this weekend. After that .... it's "Hello 100+ yard plinking!"

[Squatch]

31. I just shouldered this 10/22 and it was painfully apparent

that it's waaaaaay to small, as is, for somebody who's 6'3" tall (without optics, that is). Luckily, my father-in-law is 5'4" and should fit him nicely. If I were to buy a 10/22 for personal use, I can tell right off the bat that I'll require a full-sized stock (Monte Carlo is my preference).

Other than that, I find the 10/22 the perfect rifle to teach a rookie marksmanship and gun safety, the perfect squirrel and rabbit gun, and the best gun, all around, for just shooting, you know what I mean?

[Squatch]

17. I just went back to the store. This time I was armed

(ha, ha, ha)

I was armed with my driver's license, 2 credit card bills, a utility bill, and my car registration (why I didn't think of that yesterday, I have no idea). The transaction went smoothly, with the clerk calling the appropriate authorities. I just have to thank God that a pending speeding ticket summons is not grounds for refusal to buy a firearm.

[slackmaster]

26. SCOFFLAW!

I just have to thank God that a pending speeding ticket summons is not grounds for refusal to buy a firearm.

Well it sure as hell ought to be!

:freak:

[enki23]

34. ever get a membership to a public library?

apparently buying a firearm in your state is as tedious as getting a library card in the states i've been in.

just a bit of perspective.