IDF girds for terror, warns it may cut power to Gaza

[Violet_Crumble]

As the army prepares for the possibility of an escalation in terrorism, Israel is threatening to cut off the Gaza Strip's electricity supply if a Qassam rocket hits a vital Israeli infrastructure facility.

There is a working assumption in senior Israeli military circles that the situation will worsen, Israel Radio reported early on Wednesday. "The Authority is not doing a thing, and appears as if it is losing control," it quoted Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz as saying.

"After the elections in the Authority we may find ourselves facing a terror offensive, therefore the IDF must be deployed and ready so that Israel is not surprised, and will know how to defend its citizens," Mofaz was quotedn as saying.

Agriculture Minister Israel Katz (Likud) told Israel Radio on Wednesday that Israel should bomb the Gaza Strip, forcing some of its residents to flee to the Sinai desert. He said that he would demand that the government undertake an efficient deterrence policy in order to prevent the firing of Qassam rockets into Israel.

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/660361.html

[bemildred]

1. You just don't know where to start with this.

So he expects an "escalation in terrorism"? Does this lead anybody to ask whether the past efforts to stomp out terrorism are now admitted to be failures? Which they indeed are. Does this lead anybody to ask whether some changes in policies towards the Palestinians need to be considered? No it does not. It's going to be the same old shit, once again.

[pelsar]

2. it was tried...funny how its forgotten

some changes in policies towards the Palestinians need to be considered?

lets see...change in policy...israel leaves gaza to the palestenains....that doesnt count for a major policy change?
the lack of policy change can be seen with the daily missles flying in to israel from the palesteanins....thats the policy that hasnt change, perhaps your complaint is with them?

strange how this sounds so familiar:
gaza is chaotic so lets blame israel for it...israel should change...it must be israels fault...why?....

whats the problem with the palestenains being reponsable for palestenain violence, chaos?....

[Englander]

3. Question -

If Israel, quote, "has no responsibility for Gaza", then how is it possible
to threaten to cut off the Gaza Strip's electricity supply?

I don't know, what's with the GOI? I just can't understand it, why can't they
leave the PA to govern in peace, why must they threaten collective punishment,
why must they threaten to cut the power to all the hospitals, & factories, &
homes in the Gaza Strip? It seems like Jabba's old slogan is still going strong-
If in doubt, escalate, escalate, escalate.

[eyl]

4. Yeah, it's funny

how us dumb Israelis can't recognize the Qassams for the peace offerings they really are.

[Englander]

5. The PA isn't sending the Qassams. n/t

[eyl]

6. It's not doing anything to stop them, either.

And if you envision a Palestinian state, this is what it's going to be like in the end. When one state allows attacks against another from its territory, and does nothing to stop them, eventually the second state is going to attack the first.

[manic expression]

67. It is trying

it has little power and capacity to do so. To lay unreasonable expectations on an entity, and then blame them when the inevitably do not meet them fully is more than a bit ridiculous.

[eyl]

73. Trying?

They've done a bit, but certainly not to the utmost of their capability. For example, while the PA is complaining they can't act because their police has no ammunition, reportedly a lot of ammunition they recently recieved is just sitting in their warehouses, not being distributed.

[manic expression]

74. And what would that capability be?

Unlike the IDF, they did not put the population there in the first place. Unlike the IDF, they do not have almost limitless advantages in technology and control. There is quite a lack of control with the PA. That much is undeniable.

"reportedly a lot of ammunition they recently recieved is just sitting in their warehouses"

RECENTLY RECEIVED. Try giving them some time, for the PA has been doing that much, trying.

[eyl]

89. Even what they can do, they aren't

Abbas even said that the Qassam rockets being fired from the Gaza Strip at Israel are "Israel's problem" and that he does not intend to interfere. "Let the Israelis deal with it," he said.

The Israeli officials say that apart from deploying national security forces along the border with Israel in northern Gaza, no action has been taken against the Qassams. Even though there are nearly 30,000 men in arms under the PA's banner, they have not been able to enforce their will on the Islamic Jihad and the other militant groups involved in launching the rockets.

Ha'aretz

[manic expression]

94. I fail to see

how that shows what they can do.

It only states that they have not been able to "enforce their will" on different groups (something that is not an easy thing to do for a government). Aside from the Abbas quote, it didn't say anything else.

By the way, Israel has bombed "targets" (as in schools and homes), so the part about "no action has been taken" may be outdated.

On the quote, what about this?

"Al-Hayat quoted senior officials as saying Abbas threatened Hamas with direct confrontation if the organization continues firing Qassams at Israel."
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/1,7340,L-3147984,00.html

[barb162]

8. And what is Abbas doing to stop it

Nothing, and in that sense he encourages it

[pelsar]

11. another excuse....

isnt the PA the governing body?...arent they the recognzied authority?.......they are responsable for the qassams and nobody else.

great system of govt they are promising...as are they're supporters:

we'll try to kill israelis...but its not really us, so dont blame us...its the "other guys".....but dont shoot at them, they are only civilians.....guess it must be ghosts...

[Violet_Crumble]

12. Uh, the thing is that the PA isn't firing Qassams...

we'll try to kill israelis...but its not really us, so dont blame us

Seeing as how the PA isn't trying to kill Israeli's, I find it a bit of a stretch for anyone to be able to blame them. But I guess using the same logic, it's okay if someone blames Israel for what the extremists among the settlers in the West Bank do?

Violet..

[pelsar]

14. yes it is...

what the settlers do is israels responsability....always was...consequenty its israel, not the settlers that get condemmed in world bodies, and the pressure is on israel...not any "settlers. etc.

The PA is fully responsable for the Palestinians...and if they cant be responsable they have no right to demand a state......more so they would be inviting a state of chaos, full of warlords.

i doubt the palestenian citizen would appreciate that as well

[Behind the Aegis]

15. well...

Perhaps, Israel should just "throw their hands up" and say that they can't control the settlers and let them run amok. When people rage against Israel, they can say, they "just can't get them under control," so it not their problem. Let the PA deal with them. :sarcasm:

[Violet_Crumble]

16. Just curious...

...but which 'world bodies' condemn Israel rather than the settlers for the actions of the settlers. I'm talking about things like the murder of Palestinian civilians by settlers, etc. Could you give me some links to examples of what yr talking about?

When it comes to responsibility, I don't think anyone in this thread is arguing that Palestinians aren't responsible for themselves. But I find this argument that Israel bears no responsibility for what has and is happening in Gaza to be very unconvincing....

Violet...

[pelsar]

18. anything the settles do....

are the responabilties of israel....nor has israel ever said it wasnt.... as far as examples go....are you serious?...the building of settlements are constantly condemed, be they expanding existing ones...or illegal ones that the settlers build, the differences are not noted as israel is held responsable for all-which is the way it should be.


as far as this goes:
I don't think anyone in this thread is arguing that Palestinians aren't responsible for themselves

really...please show me any threads outside of mine...where the palestenains are held up to being responsable for their own?

as far as gaza goes?...israels influence has been reduced to reacting....if the palestenians are "responsable"...maybe they should try to stop sending missles at israel. digging tunnels into israel?...thats would be first step toward being responsable for their own.

if the PA is responsable....yet arent responsable for the actions in gaza.....then i am very confused...either they are or they arent...which is it?

[Violet_Crumble]

21. I asked for some links to examples, pelsar...

Y'know, to examples where Israel is condemned instead of extremist settlers when they murder Palestinians. Can you show me some?

Violet...

[pelsar]

24. my quote:

what the settlers do is israels responsability....always was...consequenty its israel, not the settlers that get condemmed in world bodies, and the pressure is on israel...not any "settlers. etc.

that general responsability is what is am asking of the PA....if they cant own up to that responsability with excuses they will not have the ability to establish a state.

but if you want a link:

http://www.eu2004.ie/templates/news.asp?sNavlocator=66,402,403&list_id=9

you will notice that israel is condemed for all acts in the westbank...there is no differentation between individual setters. the IDF, illegal or not illegal settlements...and thats what should be demanded from the palestenains...no more and no less.

[Violet_Crumble]

27. In my first post I specifically referred to extremist settlers...

..with their habit of murdering Palestinians. You claimed Israel gets blamed for those murders, and when I asked you to supply me with a link to support this claim, you come up with something that talks about Israel's settlement policy in the West Bank. The only mention of the sort of stuff the extremist settlers do was here:

'Furthermore, the Union notes that incidents of violence committed by settlers against Palestinians and Palestinian violence against settlers have been frequently reported. The EU considers it of the utmost importance that this violence ceases, that the incidents are investigated and the perpetrators brought to justice. '

Am I misreading this somehow? How is this blaming Israel for violence carried out by extremists amongst the settlers? It appears to be very clear about the fact that it's the individuals who commit the violence that are the perpetrators, doesn't it?

Violet...

[pelsar]

29. your misreading my intention....

to back up: my contention is that israel is responsable for the settlers...reguardless of what anybody says....for all their acts. (i'm sure thats based in some legal document about a countries responabilities somewhere.....)

so too is the PA responsable for all acts of the palestenains....just as all countries are responsable for the acts of their citizens within the boundries of their countries

thats the bottom line.....for a society to cry "we're not responsable for the acts of our members..is a cop out, that simple.). I've never read where israel has disclaimed responsability for the acts of the settlers whatever they are. (and yes the govt and IDF has looked the other way on countless violent acts..but it doesnt make them any less responsable...as in the settler destruction of olive trees etc)

I really dont know if specific acts by the settlers have or have not been condemed...its not the point..my link was precisly what it was.. a condemnation of all acts of violence by israeli in the west bank..that way it should be.

Israel, which is a party to the major human rights instruments and the Palestinian Authority, have committed themselves to respecting human rights and fundamental freedoms. The EU calls upon them to live up to their obligations and commitments.

[GatoLover]

34. Murders of Palestinians by Israelis

What's the complaint - that the punishments imposed by the Israeli courts on these people weren't severe enough?

[Violet_Crumble]

38. The discussion was about responsibility...

..and I used the murders carried out by extremist settlers as an example...

Though if you want to know if I have a complaint with them, yes I do. Sorry, but I must have missed all these severe penalties handed out to settlers who murder Palestinians. The ones who are prosecuted tend to get reasonably light sentences, and many of them aren't even brought to justice...

Violet...

[pelsar]

53. but the israeli govt is still responsable

I must have missed all these severe penalties handed out to settlers who murder Palestinians. The ones who are prosecuted tend to get reasonably light sentences, and many of them aren't even brought to justice...

whether or not they get off easy, or get light sentences or those that get harsh sentences (some have) is not the point...their is no evading of the responsability.

i cannot recall it being said that the israeli govt is not respnsable for their actions....as is being said about the palestenians and their kassams.

this forum is a good example....as i've previously written:....anybody here wrote that the PA is fully responsable for the kassams. Note I am not saying that they have to catch all the shooters, or stop 100% of them...but it does not take away from their responsability....and that i've yet to read.....

[Jim Sagle]

46. I'm convinced. But hey, I'm easy.

Ask yer buds in Oz what they think.

[Violet_Crumble]

49. What buds are you talking about?

n/t

[manic expression]

68. Quite a difference

when Israel puts settlers in an area to claim the land for themselves, as part of a policy, Israel is responsible not only for the ills that happen directly because of that very policy (of ethnic cleansing), but also for the ills that arise indirectly.

That is very different from when a small group of people in an entire population makes strikes against another country...the country that has heaped a mountain of wrongs upon that population, no less.

[GatoLover]

33. You're right, the settlers are the responsibility of the Israeli gov't

Just as the actions of the Palestinian mobs are the responsibility of the PA.

[manic expression]

69. See post #68 n/t

[Coastie for Truth]

62. Some appenders do just that

You posted

But I guess using the same logic, it's okay if someone blames Israel for what the extremists among the settlers in the West Bank do?

Well, some do blame the 70%-80% of American Jews who voted for Kerry and/or against Bush for PNAC, JINSA, AIPAC, Perle, Wolfowitz, Lawrence Franklin, Joe Lieberman, Diane Feinstein, Jonathan Pollard, Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, and even Emma Goldman and Lev Davidovich Bronstein, and all of the other various and sundry of the World's ills.

[manic expression]

78. More delusion

What do you expect? The PA cannot fully control Gaza, so they are not responsible for the Qassams.

Furthermore, they are trying to stop them, but they do not have the capacity to do so effectively.

Are you saying the PA is trying to kill Israelis? There are attempts, but it has little to do with the PA. Try recognizing why the missiles are being shot instead of trying to blame an entity that does not deserve it.

[bemildred]

7. I told you three months ago the Qassams would not stop.

The outcome of the Gaza withdrawal so far has been exactly what you might expect, you are out of Gaza. That's it. And it's still a heck of a deal. If you want the Palestinians to end the resistance you are going to have to do something about their grievances, among which giving up the former occupation of Gaza is small but important contribution.

If you like what you are getting now, just keep doing what you are doing, violence begets violence. If you want some other outcome, you're going to have to do something else, mix it up a bit more. Artillery and propaganda won't do the job.

Did you read the Katz dimwit blathering about driving the Palestinians into Sinai with artillery, but he didn't really mean to hit population centers? When you get some sophmoric prick like that spouting obviously self-contradictory babble, you know he's got a problem with his fundamental assumptions, he's trying to have it both ways. There is no finite amount of being shitty to the Palestinians that will ever suddenly cause them to start being nice, and whatever eventual solutions to the present mess might be found, none of them are going to work in a week or two, they will take years, generations of steady application to work.

[barb162]

9. "do something about their grievances"

For example? Since Hamas and a few other other groups don't recognize Israel's right to exist, what are you suggesting to attain a lasting peace?

[bemildred]

10. You conflate two different things.

It is one thing to point out that the existing policies
fail, and another thing to presume to offer a solution.
If you see someone hitting themselves in the head with a
hammer, you are not required to suggest future medical
treatment in order to tell them to put down the hammer.

With regard to Hamas in particular, it seems that the
effect of the current policies of political anathema
and collective punishment has been only to strengthen
their hand, so it is easy to suggest an end to collective
punishment and the rapid incorporation of Hamas in the
political process. Since that appears to me to be the
inevitable end of current trends, one might seize some
political advantage from giving freely what will eventually
be taken.

I don't have any simple answer for how to obtain a lasting
peace, that is an issue that has confounded the best thinkers
since antiquity.

[pelsar]

13. violence begets violence

good point...so why are the qassams still flying everyday in israel from gaza?...what grievances do the palestenains in gaza have that they have to continue to try to kill israels? and furthermore..your agree that this is a good way of showing ones dissatisfaction.....kill people?

and your suggestion for israel to do in the meantime?...

its one thing to complain about israels response..but if you cant offer a better solution it makes your complaints rather a mute point....
in fact if you dont have a concrete suggestion for israel..maybe your complaints should be directed toward the people who are tryng everyday to kill innocent civilians everyday in ashkelon now?

[Violet_Crumble]

17. Don't you think Palestinians have any grievances??

Of course they do, pelsar. The West Bank didn't just miraculously vanish from everyone's thoughts when the disengagement happened...

What I don't get is that everyone agrees that if a rocket were to damage the Israeli infrastructure, that'd be wrong, yet this guy suggests cutting off Gaza's power in retaliation and seems to think that doesn't make him as bad as anyone who'd damage Israel's power or water supplies...

Violet...

[pelsar]

19. grievances.....so they should kill....

israel is looking for a way to stop the kassams without killing palestenains.....the power can be turned on with a switch

shooting missles at ashkelon....is attempting to kill....we dont have to wait until they hit a hospital, school to react

got any suggestions?

[Violet_Crumble]

20. The vast majority of Qassams don't kill anyone...

They're pretty dodgy as far as aim goes, from what I understand. As far as I'm concerned both Palestinians and Israelis have their own different grievances, none of which should make killing justified...

You don't think turning the power off in Gaza wouldn't result in the deaths of Palestinians? Of course it would. Doing that wouldn't just be an attempt to kill - it'd directly result in deaths. And what if the Palestinians use the argument you've used and decide they don't have to wait till the power gets turned off and innocent people die before they react? Violence is not the answer to any of this, and there is no justification for one 'side' to use violence while condemning the use of violence from the other 'side'...

Violet...

[pelsar]

22. most kassams dont kill enough peole

sorry but thats a really poor argument...they are meant to terrorize and kill.... terrorize they do (if i recall you didnt agree to the sonic booms, those too didnt kill, in fact they didnt even intend to kil, unlike the kassams).....and as time goes on, as they improve they will

they have to be stopped....

the turning off the power is an idea....do you have any?

[Violet_Crumble]

23. My argument wasn't that they don't kill enough people...

I thought my comments about violence not being the answer would have made that very clear. It should also be very clear that I oppose the firing of anything that has the potential to do harm at anyone, regardless of whether they're Israeli or Palestinian...

True, they have to be stopped, but turning off power, which would directly result in the deaths of innocent Palestinians isn't the way to stop them. In fact, I think such a move would result in more of them being fired, and the deaths resulting from the power being turned off could be used as justification...

My idea is for Israel not to engage in heavy-handed and illegal measures as a form of retaliation. Those who lob Qassams want that reaction, so why give it to them knowing that the reaction they want won't do a thing to stop it?

Violet...

[pelsar]

25. so?......

israel should do nothing......let its citizens be terrorized and killed?

[Violet_Crumble]

26. Read what I said, pelsar...

Did I say Israel should do nothing? I didn't. I specifically pointed out that heavy handed and illegal forms of retaliation wasn't the answer and more than likely would make the problem worse. How does that translate into 'israel should do nothing'?

Violet...

[pelsar]

28. suggestion.....?

You didnt suggest what israel should do to stop the missles......

[Violet_Crumble]

39. I suggested what Israel shouldn't do...

I actually don't have a nice, ready-made solution. Does that disqualify me from saying what I think Israel shouldn't do in order to make things worse?

btw, what's yr solution, pelsar?

Violet...

[pelsar]

54. and thats a cop out....

its very easy to say what "not to do".....its far more diffiicult to find a solution that works....and when one is on the "solution" side, its also a bit more difficult to criticizes.

I actually don't have a nice, ready-made solution. Does that disqualify me from saying what I think Israel shouldn't do in order to make things worse

in my opinion it does, since you cant offer anything to make it" better", all israeli solutions in your eyes will make it worse
______________________________

actually i find it rather dissapointing that you cant come up with a solution or at least some ideas that fit your ideals and has a realisitic application on the ground. It precisly that which makes us israelis "ignore"the condemnations, whether some are legit or some arent they all fall in to the same catagory:

"condem our actions but an inability to provide realistic suggestions to solve the problem."

more so, if you dont have a soution for the kassams, now...what does that bode for our future?....yes, lets just say we went back to the green line, hypothetically...and the palestenian president was still weak, or hamas took over or whatever...and kasssams and mortors continue to fall....the problem remains the same...and yet if there is no adequate solution to the kassams coming out of gaza, nor will there be an "adequate" solution from those coming out of hebron.....

only this time we're back to being threatened from very weak and vunerable borders...with our vital institutions under threat (intl airport, gas facilities etc)....

_______________________________

nor do i have ready made solutions...but having been in impossible moral positions i also understand the limitations that realistic solutions have..and am less ready to criticize when different solutions are tried.

[Violet_Crumble]

64. There's quite a few things I can't come up with a solution for...

One that comes straight to mind is Iraq. I'm at a loss as to what can be done to fix that situation, but I don't think that should disqualify me from pointing out when the US does things that will ensure that the situation will remain the same or get worse....

The reason I don't have a solution for the firing of Qassams into Israel is that I think there's a few things that would have to happen to make them want to stop doing it, and none of those are quick-fixes, but bigger picture stuff, like entering into negotiations that result in the occupation of the West Bank ending, and one that addresses all the contentious issues of the conflict (eg refugees and Jerusalem). What I do know, however, is that 'solutions' which involve harm and displacement of civilian populations are not going to solve anything, and in fact will more than likely make things worse. Just for the record, I don't tend to have a problem with Israel's actions when they're legal and involve actions that I would expect any country to take to defend itself and it's citizens...

On the responsibility issue (sorry, I'm rolling a few of yr posts into one response here) - When it comes to those who fire Qassams into Israel or my example of extremist settlers who murder Palestinians, I think there's different levels of responsibility. The primary responsibility is that of the individual who carries out those acts. Neither the PA nor the Israeli govt carries out those actions, but I do feel they hold a secondary responsibility. I know we both agree that both govts should do what they can to stop such attacks, but the reality is that both have their reasons as to why they can't or won't do it...

Violet...

[pelsar]

98. but thats the crux:

The reason I don't have a solution for the firing of Qassams into Israel is that I think there's a few things that would have to happen to make them want to stop doing it, and none of those are quick-fixes,

____________________________

the catch 22 if you will......long term peace will obviously bring an end to the kassams (well maybe)...but with their continual firing, israel can hardly just sit back and let its citizens be murdered......hence a "quick-fix" is required.

us citizens dont take well to being "sacrificed" if you will on the alter of peace negotiations....

[Coastie for Truth]

58. Fervent prayer? Fasting with sack cloth and ashes?

[GatoLover]

35. Heavy handed and illegal measures? Please!

The Israelis were going to shut off electricity to Gaza for two hours Monday morning as a demonstration but called it off because the main hospital in Gaza doesn't have an emergency generator!

[Violet_Crumble]

36. Yes, heavy handed and illegal...

Are you actually going to try to dispute that such actions are heavy-handed and illegal???

Violet...

[GatoLover]

40. What? Calling off an electric power cutoff

out of a concern that the Palestinian hospital wouldn't have any power? No, not heavy-handed. As for illegal, I guess I don't know about that!

[Violet_Crumble]

41. No. Threatening it in the first place...

Carrying that out would have been both illegal and heavy-handed. I can explain why if you need me to...

Violet...

[GatoLover]

42. OK, I give, you're right

The proper Israeli response must be to resettle the populations of Sderot and Ashkelon, which any Hamasnik will tell you are occupied territory anyway.

[Violet_Crumble]

43. Excuse me? I didn't say anything like that!

Please don't attribute things to me that I never said and definately don't believe...

Violet...

[GatoLover]

44. Good! I'm glad. What DO you think the proper response should be?

Somehow I think I may regret posing this question! :-)

[Violet_Crumble]

45. I've already answered that question in this thread...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x108352#108599

[bemildred]

30. Hey, I'm not the one complaining about the situation.

If you like it the way it is, keep doing what you're doing.

[pelsar]

31. nor do you have a solution...

your great at blaming israel for all the violence...but seem to have a problem with giving the responsabilities of shooting missles into israel to the palestenains.

and when it comes down to realistic solutions..i believe you once wrote, that you dont have a solution.

well perhaps the reason is that your not looking in the right direction?

[bemildred]

32. Yep. Must be me. No doubt I created the whole mess. nt

[Violet_Crumble]

37. Don't forget my role in it! n/t

[bemildred]

48. True, my evil twin. nt

[Violet_Crumble]

50. You got some spare time this afternoon?

There's a whole lot more mess-making we can knock over in Chechnya this arvo!

*evil grin*

Violet....

[pelsar]

55. perhaps this then bears repeating...

though i wrote this for violet...it has its application here, since it falls in the same catagory:

its very easy to say what "not to do".....its far more diffiicult to find a solution that works....and when one is on the "solution" side, its also a bit more difficult to criticize.
______________________________

actually i find it rather dissapointing that you cant come up with a solution or at least some ideas that fit your ideals and has a realisitic application on the ground. It precisly that which makes us israelis "ignore"the condemnations, whether some are legit or some arent they all fall in to the same catagory:

"condem our actions but an inability to provide realistic suggestions to solve the problem."

more so, if you dont have a soution for the kassams, now...what does that bode for our future?....yes, lets just say we went back to the green line, hypothetically...and the palestenian president was still weak, or hamas took over or whatever...and kasssams and mortors continue to fall....the problem remains the same...and yet if there is no adequate solution to the kassams coming out of gaza, nor will there be an "adequate" solution from those coming out of hebron.....

only this time we're back to being threatened from very weak and vunerable borders...with our vital institutions under threat (intl airport, gas facilities etc)....

_______________________________

nor do i have ready made solutions...but having been in impossible moral positions i also understand the limitations that realistic solutions have..and am less ready to criticize when different solutions are tried.

[bemildred]

59. I have not once condemned Israel.

Nor do I condemn the Palestinians. I consider either of those to be a form of mental masturbation, a fruitless enterprise. One could argue that one of the major problems in the way the discussion here is so often conducted is that it focused entirely on history, looking backward, and on who is to blame. There is plenty of blame to go around, there is no need to parse it out in one direction or another.

But, when someone insists on doing "what not to do" and defends continuing to do it, it is perfectly sensible to point that out, and to point out that it is stupid and pernicious to continue. I can well understand the anger and frustration, but being understandable does not make them smart.

There is no simple resolution to the plight of Israel, but it is perfectly clear that any permanent, peaceful solution includes the Palestinians and requires their consent. You're stuck with each other. You're going to need them on your side. So you might as well get started on that, the ones that are willing anyway, and the first step in that is the end of the collective retribution tactics, and stop building new settlements, make sure they have adequate water and food and medical care and educational options, and YOU become a reliable and patient partner for peace with those Palestinians that desire peace too. They are going to need support because they will be attacked mercilessly for collaboration.

Within that context, you will certainly need to take steps to protect yourself from the fundies and militants on both sides, who have a vested interest in the perpetuation of the conflict.

That does not mean I think Hamas or Hiz'bullah or the Brotherhood are swell fellows, they are not, but they are political - not military - movements, and they must be attacked in the political arena. Use of arms will not exterminate them short of genocide, that ought to be clear by now, and the tattered credibility of Israel will not stand the commission of genocide, and without credibility Israel will not attract the people that it needs to build and defend itself.

It is true I will sometimes slander particular of the policies of the Israeli state or particular of it's citizens. But that is not intended as a general condemnation of anyone or anything, it's intended as a particular criticism of the thing I chose to slander, and it is something that I apply freely to Palestinians, when they deserve it, too.

It's nice to see a more considered response, and it's not that I don't sympathize.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bemildred]

51. What are you going to do about it?

I'll tell you right now, they're going to keep shooting the Qassam's and conspiring to commit suicide bombings. That's the deal. So you can posture and vent your spleen all you like, but it won't change a thing.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pelsar]

56. so?......

they've been doing that since (or the variation of that)...i was going to write 48...but its previous to that as well...so they'll probably keep on trying....

what are we going to do about it?... defend ourselves unlike the previous 2,000 years.

[bemildred]

60. What, a new diaspora? nt

[manic expression]

80. What do the last 2,000 years

have to do with this? This is about now, in case you forgot.

Yeah, just keep trying to tie the Holocaust in to this, even though it has no bearing on the situation. Why don't you throw in the Roman occupation and the Zealot revolt while you're at it? Why not cite the Egyptian enslavement, too? What about the Spanish Inquisition? Please....

The worst part is that Israel is, in a subliminal way, emulating those very injustices upon others.

[Coastie for Truth]

61. Maybe the "changes in policy" advocated by some are

the same ones advocated by Iran's President, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and Muhammad Mehdi Akef, Supreme Guide of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood, viz. ,

Two weeks after the Muslim Brotherhood won 88 seats in Parliament and established itself as Egypt's only significant political opposition organization, its leader issued a statement Thursday condemning America while declaring that the Holocaust was a "myth."

In a statement issued on the group's Web site, Muhammad Mehdi Akef, the supreme guide of the Brotherhood, said that America might be the public face of the new world order but that, from "backstage," it was being "manipulated by the hands of the sons of Zion."

He also echoed comments made earlier by Iran's president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who had called the Holocaust a myth and said that whatever occurred was the fault of the Europeans and that therefore Israel should be moved to Europe.

In his weekly letter on the Web site, Mr. Akef said, "Western democracy has attacked everyone who does not share the vision of the sons of Zion as far as the myth of the Holocaust is concerned."

Pro-Israel ---> you have an "agenda"

Anti-Israel (I did NOT say "Pro-Palestinian" since it is possible to be both "Pro-Israel" and "Pro-Palestinian") ---> You are as innocent as the driven snow, a giver of peace, one who comforts the bereaved, heals the sick, clothes the naked, feeds the hungry, battle injustice everywhere, feeds stray kittens and puppies, yaa daa, yaa daaa, yaa daa ....

[manic expression]

70. Project much?

It is laughable that you try to catagorize opposing many of Israel's policies with Holocaust denial. What are you thinking?

Being anti-Israel means many things. However, if it be against its despicable policies (by the way, why are you talking about the Holocaust?), then it IS that justified.

[Coastie for Truth]

71. Your comments are noted.

You posted:

It is laughable that you try to catagorize opposing many of Israel's policies with Holocaust denial. What are you thinking?

You made that illogical logical jump, not me.

I merely linked to the comments of Muhammad Mehdi Akef, Supreme Guide of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood, viz. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/23/international/africa/23egypt.html|Egyptian Leader of Muslim Group Calls Holocaust a Zionist 'Myth', New York Times 12/23/2005>, who was quoted by the New York Times as saying

"Western democracy has attacked everyone who does not share the vision of the sons of Zion as far as the myth of the Holocaust is concerned."

I then distinguished between three classes:

1. Pro-Israel
2. Pro-Palestinian and Pro-Israel (my definition of a "Progressive"}
3. Pro-Palestinian and Anti-Israel.

The reference to Iranian President, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, was made in the context of his "send the Israelis back to Europe" comment and Muhammad Mehdi Akef's tacit agreement with him, viz:

He also echoed comments made earlier by Iran's president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who had called the Holocaust a myth and said that whatever occurred was the fault of the Europeans and that therefore Israel should be moved to Europe.
Link:http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/23/international/africa/23egypt.html|Egyptian Leader of Muslim Group Calls Holocaust a Zionist 'Myth', New York Times 12/23/2005>

I also note your comments

Being anti-Israel means many things. However, if it be against its despicable policies (by the way, why are you talking about the Holocaust?), then it IS that justified.

[manic expression]

72. Thanks

but you cannot try to put everyone in the same pot with the Iranian president and an Egyptian religious leader. There are lunatics in many, if not most movements, so one must take them with a lot of salt.

Another thing is that I think that the average person in, say, Egypt of Iran, should not be expected to grasp the events of the Holocaust fully, especially with the misinformation that you pointed out going around. For their leaders, however, there is no excuse.

An even bigger thing is that I doubt that most Palestinians believe those same things (excluding some exceptions, of course).

One more thing: The same person can be catagorized very differently. A RW hack would call me "anti-American" (along with everyone else on this board), while others would say different. So, I think that people who are "anti-Israel" may not want the "destruction of Israel", or think that the Holocaust is a myth.

Something I just noticed:
"whatever occurred was the fault of the Europeans and that therefore Israel should be moved to Europe."

Calling for ethnic cleansing (moving Israel) is always wrong and disgusting in every way. It must be said that many pro-Israeli people encourage the same things. One should not condemn one injustice while ignoring or contributing to another.

[pelsar]

75. care to be consistent?

so if i understand correctly...because there are "lunatics" in most movements one must take them with a grain of salt..and this includes the president of iran?

so i guess we will find a "similar" understanding when it comes to comments from Israeli leaders who are in lesser posistions and not the prime minister of iran...you will be defending their comments?

and since the avg person of egypt and iran should not be expected to"grasp the events of the Holocaust"....er why is that?...i assume that your not hinting that there is something "wrong with them"......is the excuse the constant bombardment of hatefull wrong information that their govts are putting out against israel/jews?.....and if so...who exactly is doing that?...the fringe lunatics?

and why dont the"palestenains" believe" like the avg person of Egypt and Iran....(this should be an interesting thesis....)

[manic expression]

77. Care to think?

The Prime Minister of Iran and a religious leader in Egypt is not an elected position of the pro-Palestinian movement. They are leaders of their respective bodies, which has little to do with the issue of Palestine.

Israeli officials, however, represent a single entity that is central to the issue that we are speaking of. Sure, there is a spectrum there as well, but it is not the same when a state official makes a comment that has immediate implications for an issue that the state is very much involved with.

Furthermore, it is not an exception within Israel, as everything from official Israeli resolutions to the Prime Minister have been equally disgusting in both word and deed.

On to the next point. You cannot expect an average person in those countries to have the same outlook on it as someone in, say, Europe. The excuse is a completely different continent and a completely different history, not ignorance, so stop trying to make all Muslims look like bigots, please. Inability to fully grasp something does not mean denial of said event. Sorry, but nice try.

Your inability to grasp basic arguments makes your points quite ridiculous. This next one is a prime example.

Palestinians are mostly concerned with the land that was stolen from them, not the Holocaust. The Holocaust does not even enter into the issue. Only self-centered, self-righteous Zionists try to inject as much.

[pelsar]

84. yes i agree...

You cannot expect an average person in those countries to have the same outlook on it as someone in, say, Europe

which is precisly why you have little understanding of the conflict....

The Holocaust does not even enter into the issue. or

They are leaders of their respective bodies, which has little to do with the issue of Palestine. ...which is a prime example of how little you understand..as you mentioned..and let me repeat your own words with a geographical modification:

You cannot expect an average person in europe to have the same outlook on it as someone in, say, israel:...we have different histories and culture....

in fact those avg people in "those countries" are precisly what its all about,,,it those people in europe and other western countries who are the bigots, they think they understand the culture and conflict of the middleeast through "their eyes"...and think they know what is important to those us involved.....they dont

[manic expression]

93. Really?

Try to demonstrate this. Because it seems that you deny the most obvious of facts (Sabra and Shatilla, for instance). YOU have absolutely no understanding, and your pathetic points support this.

What does the PM of Iran have to do with the oppression of Palestine? Just about nothing. Oh, I see, you murder Palestinians because the Iranian PM said something you didn't like....:eyes:

The difference is that the Israeli Palestinian conflict is ongoing today, and has a considerable amount of coverage in news that is readily accessible to Europeans. Therefore, they do have an understanding of the conflict, even if their views do not always conform to yours.

So let me get this straight, if someone doesn't completely agree with you, they have no understanding of the issue? That is the epitome of ignorance.

Actually, the history of Israel and Europe is very much intertwined and connected, and the culture is very much the same. Israel came into being because of the UK, and has been receiving support from western nations ever since. Good job being wrong again.

People in Europe and other Western countries see the conflict for many things. However, many see it for what it TRULY is: Israel's continued campaign of injustice against other peoples of the region. That is why you despise those views so much, they tell you the truth you don't want to hear.

[pelsar]

96. do you even live in the middle east?

i'm guessing but you probably dont speak hebrew or arabic......so this comment of yours:

YOU have absolutely no understanding..... i find rather humerous

even if you were here, your lack of language skills would mean that you have no idea of "whats going on in the environment. i always find that fascinating...someone who reads some papers, comes for a visit or two all of a sudden knows far more, has a greater understanding that someone who speaks the language lives in the middle of the conflict......and has experienced it in far more greater versions...

dont try the shaba and shatilla...israel is not the guilty party when lebanese christians killing palestenians

___________
Actually, the history of Israel and Europe is very much intertwined and connected, and the culture is very much the same


whoooooaaaa...israeli culture is very much like Europe?....where does that come from?.....

acutally the history of israel in the middle east is very much interwined...with much of its population being from arab countries, and born here, with much of that influence within its culture...far more than the west, but then, not knowing either israeli culture or its language would mean you wouldnt know....you should try asking what you dont know, and stop believing that you know what israelis think and believe.....because its obviouse that you really dont know.

hey i was in the UK a couple of time.... i read a lot, i even speak english...but i wouldnt dream of claiming i understand the IRA/UK conflict ..but then i'm not so ethnocentric as to believe i could understand the motiviations by such superficial means.

i dont despise different views..what i do despise is ignorence in this conflict especially when its based in some belief that they know what we think, believe and what is important to us-----instead of asking

i dont like willful ignorence.

[Englander]

57. HRW - Israel: Gaza Power Cut Would Violate Laws of War

(Jerusalem, December 23, 2005) – A reported proposal by Israeli government officials to cut the Gaza Strip’s electricity supply in retaliation for Palestinian militant groups’ rocket attacks on Israel would constitute unlawful collective punishment of Gaza's civilian population, Human Rights Watch said today.

A report on Wednesday in the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz said top Israeli government officials discussed plans to cut electricity to the Gaza Strip if Palestinian militant groups continue to fire Qassam rockets into Israel.

Human Rights Watch condemns the use of Qassam rockets, which are indiscriminate weapons often fired into Israeli civilian areas in violation of international humanitarian law, and urges militant groups to stop their attacks. But, in turn, any measures that Israel takes to protect its citizens from these attacks must be consistent with its obligations under international humanitarian law.

Cutting electricity to the entire population of Gaza violates a basic principle of international humanitarian law, which restricts a government that has effective control over a territory from attacking or withholding objects essential to the survival of the civilian population. Such an act would also violate Israel's duty as an occupying power to safeguard the health and welfare of the occupied population.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/12/22/isrlpa12345.htm]

[Coastie for Truth]

63. Not according to

1. The Red Cross - Leland Stanford University College of Law Program in International Humanitarian Law seminar series.

2. Louis Henkin, "Cases and Materials On International Law."

My gosh - that's pretty effin fast for a bunch of lawyers to get out an opinion - almost as fast as

Besides the HRW "opinion" states

Cutting electricity to the entire population of Gaza violates a basic principle of international humanitarian law, which restricts a government that has effective control over a territory from attacking or withholding objects essential to the survival of the civilian population. Such an act would also violate Israel's duty as an occupying power to safeguard the health and welfare of the occupied population.

(Lots of illogical "logical jumps" there - Israel withdrew - now they are once again exerting "effective control" and "an occupying power" :shrug: - lawyers with an agenda? :shrug: - like Bolton and Yoo)

(I am not being nit-picky --- these are grevious logical errors that go right to the conclusion drawn)

[Englander]

65. Congrats, the analysis in that post, of the situation is wrong, again.

Are you saying that cutting the power to Gaza isn't collective punsihment?
That's a repugnant & incorrect view, imo.

Read all of the HRW release, note the mention of the International Committee
of the Red Cross;

'Israel withdrew its military forces and settlers from the Gaza Strip in August and September. Nonetheless, Israel continues to hold responsibility for ensuring the well-being of Gaza's population for as long as, and to the extent that, it retains effective control over the area. Israel still exercises full control over Gaza's airspace, sea space and land borders with Israel as well as its electricity, water, sewage and telecommunications networks and population registry. Under the disengagement plan, Israel reserves the right to reenter Gaza militarily at any time.

Israel has stated that it may take such measures to punish Gaza's civilian population for support of the militant groups that carry out rocket and suicide bombing attacks. Ha'aretz reported that during a government debate on cutting electricity to Gaza, "the prevailing view was that Palestinian public opinion could pressure the terrorist organizations to restrain their attacks if many Palestinians came to feel that the price they were paying for such attacks was too high.”

Cutting electricity to Gaza would amount to collective punishment, which is expressly forbidden under international humanitarian law. According to this principle, a person cannot be punished for a crime that they have not personally committed. The International Committee of the Red Cross has clarified in its authoritative commentary of Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention that "he concept of collective punishment must be understood in the broadest sense: it covers not only legal sentences but sanctions and harassment of any sort..." '

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pelsar]

76. and your suggestion is?

any suggestions as to how to stop the missles from flying from palesteneain controlled gaza into israeli cities that you would defend?.....anything?

or should israel do nothing and wait until one lands in a hospital or kindergarten...and even then...what would your suggestion be?

something realistic......

[manic expression]

79. Wait?

No, Israel doesn't wait for missiles to hit schools, they do it themselves! Only they bomb Palestinian schools and homes, because the lives and material lost there doesn't matter to Israel. :puke:

[Behind the Aegis]

81. whatever!

:eyes:

The Palestinians are all so innocent. :eyes: It appears the lives and materials lost there don't much matter to the PA either, or perhaps they might actually try to reign in the terrorists. :puke:

[manic expression]

82. Yeah, actually

the ones who are trying to live their lives are pretty innocent (that makes just about almost all of them, by the way).

The PA has less of a capacity to stop these happenings than the US government has to stop illegal immigration. Don't blame them because it has little to do with this. What has a lot to do with this is the complete lack of regard for Palestinian lives and people by Israel. Try blaming that.

[Behind the Aegis]

83. Same for Israelis...

...but we can't make Israelis look like they are living their lives because we know even those mall-shoppers are oppressors. :eyes:

If the PA can't rule, then they should step aside and let someone who can or at least ask for help to control the fringe elements. But, then that would mean that the PA would have to actually take responsibility and rule. They can't do that because then they wouldn't have anyone to blame but themselves.

[manic expression]

91. Sure

But the IDF IS oppressing Palestine. Israel IS oppressing Palestinians. Reactions against injustices are to be expected, at the very least.

Give the PA some time. For goodness' sakes, even the US wasn't that stable for awhile (Shay's rebellion, Stono rebellion, Nat Turner's rebellion, Civil War, Harper's Ferry...). It is already an improvement that Palestinians do not have foreign soldiers threatening their lives every day or policies of ethnic segregation and unfairness. Give it time.

[pelsar]

85. question still stands....

or is your suggestion that israelis and its govt should do nothing?

try to actually put forth a realistic suggestion.....or do all israelis simply deserve to die......?..because without a serious suggestion i guess thats what you mean?.....

[manic expression]

92. FACT still stands

and the FACT is that Israel does the very same things you condemn, and that is still ignoring much.

Yeah, I stated that Israelis deserve to die....:rofl: Get a grip, buy a clue and then start thinking.

The ironic thing is that you support the overt murder of innocent Palestinians, as well as continued injustice against an entire people (targeting a specific group of people...ring a bell?). It seems you think that Palestinian life is ultimately worthless and expendable, try changing that sick mindset and maybe you'll get somewhere.

A suggestion? Realistically? How about not occupying the West Bank? How about not threatening to shut off power and lay siege to an entire country? How about working with the PA instead of against them?

[pelsar]

95. not much of a suggestion....no surprise....

A suggestion? Realistically? How about not occupying the West Bank? How about not threatening to shut off power and lay siege to an entire country? How about working with the PA instead of against them?

neither will stop the kassams......try again......as far as our targeting a group....thats what happens when their "fighters" use the entire population as "human shields"...but thats an old story.....

no i dont think palestenian life is worthless and expendable...but as long as they and they're "friends" keep on trying to kill me, i will not sympathise with their plight. (at least not on the national level).

now you say you dont think innocent israelis deserve to die?...ok...so lets try again...what would your suggestion be to the IDF/israeli govt to stop the incoming missles that will be shot tomorrow from Gaza.....something that might actually work, no vague ideals or long terms political statements.....

[Englander]

86. From where?

"... palesteneain controlled gaza..." Where's this? Is this some location in
an alternate reality where the GOI doesn't have control over Gaza? Is this some
other Gaza?

'Israel withdrew its military forces and settlers from the Gaza Strip in August and September. Nonetheless, Israel continues to hold responsibility for ensuring the well-being of Gaza's population for as long as, and to the extent that, it retains effective control over the area. Israel still exercises full control over Gaza's airspace, sea space and land borders with Israel as well as its electricity, water, sewage and telecommunications networks and population registry. Under the disengagement plan, Israel reserves the right to reenter Gaza militarily at any time.'

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/12/22/isrlpa12345.htm

Any thoughts on the legality, or morality of an occupying power threatening to use
collective punishment, to cut the power in Gaza?

[pelsar]

87. if it works to stop killing israelis

and it doesnt stop the electricity in the hospitals...yes i 'm all for it...cutting electricity may be "bothersome" and uncomfortable but it doesnt kill like kassams... or terrorize populations

any thoughts on stopping the kassams? in a method that you would agree to?


the "ocupation" as the article refers to is now a choice that the palestenains have chosen...
the palestenains now have options....they can connect to the egyptian electrical grid, make their own sewer system, create their own tel com...if they choose not to, thats their choice....dont go blaming israel for the palelstenains choices...thats absurd.

btw the paragraph has this:

Israel still exercises full control over Gaza's...... land borders with Israel ..a

nd you expect me to take that as a problem?....israel exercies full control over gazas borders with israel.....hmmm and why is that a negative thing?

______________________

but let me repeat as I dont believe you've ever answered the question:

any thoughts on stopping the kassams? in a method that you would agree to? that works?

[Behind the Aegis]

88. collective punishments are bad...

...unless they come in the form of terrorist attacks in malls and missiles into Israel, then they are A-OK, because those collective punishments are justifiable! :eyes:

Give them Gaza...done..still, attacks against Israel is Israel's fault. And, even better, Israel ethnically cleansed that region of Jews. But, but, but...what about the PA? They don't have any real power, so they shouldn't be held responsible for the terrorism coming from the Gaza Strip. :eyes:

Oh, that's right! Because the WB is still occupied, it excuses terrorism in Israel, even from the Gaza Strip! :eyes: So, Israel is just being stubborn because they haven't unilaterally withdrawn from the WB and Judenrein'ed that space as well. :eyes: All this unilateral action from Israel, one would think that the PA would at least try to reign in the terrorists in Gaza...but it is hard work. But, of course, it is all just a ploy from Israel to gain more land. :eyes:

Pelsar, we both know that there is only one solution that would appease some...however, Israel won't go for that...not enough water-wings!

[Englander]

97. Here's the thing -

The whole bullying method of trying to get an answer to a question only works
if you're basing your arguments on fact, morality, & an objective analysis of
events, if you're using repugnant propaganda as the basis, it doesn't really fly.
If I actually thought that you're interested in my opinion, I'd have a go at
entering into a serious discussion, clearly I'm not going to have much luck with
someone who doesn't have a problem with the use of collective punsihment, &tc.

[barb162]

99. Englander, I think he is interested in your opinion

[pelsar]

101. i am interested....

i've never seen you actually post an opinion on what israeli should do practically to stop the kassams....something that would actually work to stop the terrorisim on israeli civilians, that you would agree to....


try it....if you can.....remember something that works...and its not just me, I suspect quite a few others are interested in your solution....

[Englander]

103. I have a few suggestions.

The chances of them being implemented, or any of them occuring are slim, to
non-existant, frankly. I think it will be decades before this cycle of tit-for-tat
vengeful violence is broken, which is one way to 'stop the kassams', to end the
cycle of violence. The attitude that only one side should stop, or that only one
side is guilty, or that only one side are terrorwists, only helps to prolong the
fubar situation.

bemildred & Vi have already, in this thread, made some suggestions, & if I may, I
will post their comments here, all of which I agree with;

bemildred -

The outcome of the Gaza withdrawal so far has been exactly what you might expect, you are out of Gaza. That's it. And it's still a heck of a deal. If you want the Palestinians to end the resistance you are going to have to do something about their grievances, among which giving up the former occupation of Gaza is small but important contribution.

If you like what you are getting now, just keep doing what you are doing, violence begets violence. If you want some other outcome, you're going to have to do something else, mix it up a bit more. Artillery and propaganda won't do the job.

Did you read the Katz dimwit blathering about driving the Palestinians into Sinai with artillery, but he didn't really mean to hit population centers? When you get some sophmoric prick like that spouting obviously self-contradictory babble, you know he's got a problem with his fundamental assumptions, he's trying to have it both ways. There is no finite amount of being shitty to the Palestinians that will ever suddenly cause them to start being nice, and whatever eventual solutions to the present mess might be found, none of them are going to work in a week or two, they will take years, generations of steady application to work.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=108352&mesg_id=108380

Violet_Crumble -

They're pretty dodgy as far as aim goes, from what I understand. As far as I'm concerned both Palestinians and Israelis have their own different grievances, none of which should make killing justified...

You don't think turning the power off in Gaza wouldn't result in the deaths of Palestinians? Of course it would. Doing that wouldn't just be an attempt to kill - it'd directly result in deaths. And what if the Palestinians use the argument you've used and decide they don't have to wait till the power gets turned off and innocent people die before they react? Violence is not the answer to any of this, and there is no justification for one 'side' to use violence while condemning the use of violence from the other 'side'...

Violet...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=108352&mesg_id=108498

Violet_Crumble -

The reason I don't have a solution for the firing of Qassams into Israel is that I think there's a few things that would have to happen to make them want to stop doing it, and none of those are quick-fixes, but bigger picture stuff, like entering into negotiations that result in the occupation of the West Bank ending, and one that addresses all the contentious issues of the conflict (eg refugees and Jerusalem). What I do know, however, is that 'solutions' which involve harm and displacement of civilian populations are not going to solve anything, and in fact will more than likely make things worse. Just for the record, I don't tend to have a problem with Israel's actions when they're legal and involve actions that I would expect any country to take to defend itself and it's citizens...

On the responsibility issue (sorry, I'm rolling a few of yr posts into one response here) - When it comes to those who fire Qassams into Israel or my example of extremist settlers who murder Palestinians, I think there's different levels of responsibility. The primary responsibility is that of the individual who carries out those acts. Neither the PA nor the Israeli govt carries out those actions, but I do feel they hold a secondary responsibility. I know we both agree that both govts should do what they can to stop such attacks, but the reality is that both have their reasons as to why they can't or won't do it...

Violet...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=108352&mesg_id=108696

[pelsar]

104. real concrete suggestions: not vague comments

actually none of your examples were concrete suggestions to stop the kassams nor the katushas....to summarize them:

bemildred:
you're going to have to do something else....
(in a older thread, bemildred did admit to not having a solution, it was about violent protests)

violet:
Violence is not the answer to any of this,
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x108352#108599
I actually don't have a nice, ready-made solution.
______________________________

I am looking for a real solution that can be implemented.....not a "dont do this, or thats not legal,...something that the IDF-GOI can implement that will stop the kassams from flying into israel and terrorizing the populalation that is "agreeable to your values.

do you have any?

[Englander]

105. Sorry, pelsar, I'm not playing.

Find someone else, if you want to take the piss, frankly, & cherrypick some
comments from a couple of hundred words of mine & others comments, then go
find someone else to argue with. If you want to ignore all the suggestions
& comments that were made, that's fine, but don't expect to taken seriously.

[pelsar]

106. violet at least tried...

and was honest enough:

"The reason I don't have a solution for the firing of Qassams into Israel....."

bemildred had on a different thread (not saved)...i dont have an answer..

how about you?

(i'm not "cherrypicking" I'm looking for a real answer that can actually be implimented in the field..something that perhaps few here have had to do...its not so easy is it?.....)

try playing, its not hard, (but admittaly it does mean making a firm statement)

[eyl]

90. HRW's statement

seems at odds with the definition of occupation as given by the ICJ in its decision in Armed Activities on the Territory of the Congo. See in particular paragraph 172, which states the territory must be directly under the authority of the occupying army, and paragraph 177, according to which even Ugandan control of Kisangani Airport was not sufficient to consider it occupied.

Also, is HRW actually denying Israel the right to control its own borders? Otherwise, obviously Israel controls Gaza's border with it.**

*In the interest of full disclosure, I should add that there are implications in the decision I disagree with - notably, their stance on states' right of self-defense - but I won't enter into that here.
**EDIT - I see pelsar beat me to it

[Wordie]

100. HRW states specifically that Gaza is still Israel's responsibility:

In October 2004 the Knesset approved Prime Minister Ariel Sharon’s plan to “disengage” from the Gaza Strip in 2005 by withdrawing its military forces and Jewish settlements, although the plan will leave Israel in control of Gaza’s borders, coastline, and airspace. This move will not end Israel’s occupation of Gaza or its responsibility for the well-being of its inhabitants. (emphasis mine)

That seems pretty unequivocal to me. Of course, HRW is not Israeli, so maybe that disqualifies them from commenting, as they could not possibly know what really is going on there.

[pelsar]

102. since its description is wrong

....plan will leave Israel in control of Gaza’s borders, ...

bbeeeep wrong information....israel is not in control of the souther border...that is between egypt and the palestenains...hence their claim is also wrong!!!!

its getting pretty weak the "blame israel" thing, next time get the facts correct