Bethlehem becoming a giant prison: Latin Patriarch

[Violet_Crumble]

JERUSALEM, Dec 21 (AFP): The head of the Roman Catholic church in the Holy Land accused Israel on Wednesday of turning the birthplace of Jesus Christ into a "giant prison" with its West Bank separation barrier.

In his traditional pre-Christmas press conference, the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem Michel Sabbah also appealed for leaders on both sides in the Middle East conflict to work harder to put an end to bloodshed.

Thousands of pilgrims are expected to flock to Bethlehem over the weekend where Sabbah will conduct the midnight mass service on Christmas eve.

http://financialexpress-bd.com/index3.asp?cnd=12/22/2005§ion_id=26&newsid=10459&spcl=no

[orwell]

1. Bethlehem...

...the front lines in the War on Christmas!

Send in the Faux News 102nd Keyboarder's Brigade!

[GatoLover]

2. It's sad, but Bethlehem was used as a launching pad

for artillery attacks on Jewish apartments in Jerusalem.

[Scurrilous]

3. Yep...

...what better way to stop 'artillery fire' than a wall.

[GatoLover]

4. Yeah, suicide bombers, too

The Palestinian situation is very sad and it didn't have to be. They've made one bad choice after another for over 75 years.

[Violet_Crumble]

6. The worn out 'security' argument again?

Gato, I think you should read this B'tselem report from September:

Under the Guise of Security: Routing the Separation Barrier to Enable Israeli Settlement Expansion in the West Bank

The fact that the Separation Barrier cuts into the West Bank was and remains the main cause of human rights violations of Palestinians living near the Barrier. Israel contends that the Barrier's route is based solely on security considerations. This report disputes that contention and proves that one of the primary reasons for choosing the route of many sections of the Barrier was to place certain areas intended for settlement expansion on the "Israeli" side of the Barrier. In some of the cases, for all intents and purposes the expansion constituted the establishment of a new settlement.

The report provides an in-depth analysis of the expansion plans of four settlements and the connection between the plans and the route of the Separation Barrier. The report also presents the principal findings in eight other cases in which the settlement's expansion plans significantly affected the Barrier's route.

The currently approved route of the Barrier leaves fifty-five settlements, twelve of them in East Jerusalem, separated from the rest of the West Bank and contiguous with the State of Israel. Study of a map of the route indicates that in most of the cases discussed in this report, the Barrier's route was set hundreds, and even thousands, of meters from the houses at the edge of the settlement. The route of the Separation Barrier running near each of the twelve settlements discussed in the report more or less follows the borders of the outline development plan for the particular settlement, making it impossible to argue there is no connection between the route and the plan. Thus it is clear that contrary to the picture portrayed by the state, the settlement-expansion plans played a substantial role in the planning of the Barrier's route.

The report shows that not only were security-related reasons of secondary importance in certain locations, in cases when they conflicted with settlement expansion, the planners opted for expansion, even at the expense of compromised security. This desire for settlement expansion led to an increase in the violation of Palestinians' human rights.

The settlements that Israel established in the Occupied Territories are illegal and breach international humanitarian law. Therefore, an act intended to perpetuate the settlements is by definition, a breach of international law. Although protecting the settlers is a legitimate objective, achieving it by running the Barrier along a route that perpetuates the settlements or involves expressly forbidden acts, such as destruction of private property, is illegal. The severity of the action is aggravated insofar as the primary goal in setting the Barrier's route - expanding settlements and protecting the economic interests of Israeli real-estate developers - is itself illegal.

Violet...

[GatoLover]

8. Would you like me to respond with material from Arutz Sheva

or Kahane Chai or even, for that matter, the Likud? Look, B'tselem, Shalom Achshav and that group are entitled to their poin of view, but it's definitely a point of view.

I'll be direct. I want the fence to protect as many Jews as possible. There are 10,000+ in Ariel, something like 100,000+, I think, in the Jerusalem suburbs, a large concentration in Gush Etzion. These areas are going to remain Israeli under a final settlement, if one ever exists. The fence had damned well better protect these people. If our Palestinian friends ever renounce violence, the fence will disappear faster than you can imagine.

[Violet_Crumble]

9. You equate B'tselem with Kahane????

Now I've seen everything. Did you bother reading the report? How are facts just 'a point of view'?

btw, the 'Palestinian friends' who are being so badly affected by this wall are not required to renounce violence, anymore than the average Israeli is. And as for focusing on protecting only Jews, I strongly disagree with any view along those lines, as all people, no matter what they are, should be entitled to protection...

Violet...

[GatoLover]

12. No, they are opposites.

One extreme left, one extreme right.

[Violet_Crumble]

13. B'tselem is NOT extreme...

It's an Israeli human rights organisation, and to put their information on the same level as the poison spewed by Kahanists is totally reprehensible...


Violet...

[GatoLover]

16. Don't misunderstand, I do NOT defend Kahane

but calling itself a human rights organization doesn't change the political position of B'tselem. Link me some of their material on Palestinian human rights abuses, please.

[Violet_Crumble]

19. I didn't think you were defending Kahane...

What I think yr doing is placing B'tselem on the same moral level as them in order to fob off B'tselem's information as somehow tainted...

Here's some information on Palestinian human rights abuses from that supposed extreme organisation...

Attacks on Israeli Civilians by Palestinians

So, tell me more about their political position! ;)

Violet...

[GatoLover]

21. I just spent a few minutes scanning the B'tselem website that you linked

In particular the "press releases" and "testimonies" sections. Every item I saw was a response to some real or imagined Israeli abuse (and I am well aware of Israeli abuses, I don't condone them). I couldn't find a single article detailing an incident of Palestinian abuse. If I spent more time, maybe I'd find one.

[Violet_Crumble]

23. I think you should take a few more minutes...

I can find plenty of incidents of human rights abuses carried out by Palestinians on the b'tselem website, and I'm more than happy to copy them over here so you can find fault with them...

Are you still claiming that B'tselem is a group of extremists, and the left-wing mirror of the right-wing extremists like Kahane?

Violet...

[Violet_Crumble]

5. Have you got a link to anything about that?

I'd be interested in knowing how long ago that happened and more details about it...

Violet...

[GatoLover]

7. Sure, it's been a while

The shelling of Gilo started during the fall of 2000, shortly after the outbreak of the current war. Artillery fire was coming from Bethlehem. At the time my daughter was going to school two miles away and she told us that she and her friends would climb onto the roof of the dormitory at night and watch the shelling. Made a guy think.

[Violet_Crumble]

10. What did it make you think?

Also, not quite sure how you think a wall will stop artillery...

Violet...

[GatoLover]

11. Oh, the same thing that people with children in London thought in 1940

eom

[Violet_Crumble]

14. And what were Londoners thinking?

n/t

[GatoLover]

15. I think anyone with children knows the answer to that question.

eom

[Violet_Crumble]

17. I've got a kid and I'd like to know the answer...

And also, why you'd be putting yrself in the shoes of Londoners during the Blitz...

Violet...

[GatoLover]

18. I am very, very sure that you know the answer

and I strongly suspect that you and I would agree on it.

[Violet_Crumble]

20. No, actually I don't...

Because I know a shitload about the Blitz and just can't see the connection...

Violet...

[GatoLover]

22. Sorry, I guess it'll just be one of life's mysteries

:headbang: eom

[Violet_Crumble]

24. It will be until folk who think that way read up on the Blitz...

Then they might realise how ridiculous the attempts to appeal to emotions by comparing anything that happens in the I/P conflict with the Blitz is :)

Violet...

[GatoLover]

25. See, I got you to tip your hand first!

:loveya: eom

[Violet_Crumble]

26. Uh, congrats...

..though I'm not sure at all why I needed to spell out something that was so bloody obvious in the first place...

Violet...

[GatoLover]

27. Obviousness is in the eye and bias of the beholder

It's obvious to me what the thoughts and emotions of any parent would be when their beloved child was in the middle of a war zone.

[Violet_Crumble]

28. Since when has Israel been a war zone?

n/t

[GatoLover]

29. Since at least 1929, if not earlier

eom

[Violet_Crumble]

30. Israel didn't exist until 1948, so that's a bit hard to believe...

Also, if Israel is a war zone, then why has there been no declaration of war, and why are there no POW's?

Violet...

[GatoLover]

31. Right, Iraq isn't a war zone because there's been no declaration of war

eom

[Violet_Crumble]

32. Uh, yes there was...

Bush declares war

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- U.S. President George W. Bush has announced that war against Iraq has begun.

In his address at 0315 GMT Thursday, Bush said:

• That every effort would be made to spare the lives of innocent civilians,

• But the campaign will be "broad and concerted" and will use "decisive force."

• No outcome but victory will be accepted,

• America's freedom will be defended, and freedom will be brought to others

Violet...

[GatoLover]

33. I don't have the energy to find all of the many arab declarations of war

against Israel. You might try starting with the collected works of Grand Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini, Mufti of Jerusalem, head of the Arab Higher Committee, fan of Adolf Hitler. But that's just a start. Do collected works of Nassar, Arafat, Shiek Yassir, George Habash, on and on.

Honestly, what is the point of this thread? What political argument are you trying advance by playing cat-and-mouse with me over my concern for my daughter's welfare?

[Violet_Crumble]

34. That's good, because I didn't ask for arab declarations of war...

But you can find me the declaration of war from the PA against Israel, and that'll convince me...


The point of this thread was to discuss the article I posted. Personally, I've got no idea what yr daughter or the Blitz has to do with this thread...

Violet...

[GatoLover]

35. Can you find a current version of the Palestinian Nat'l Covenant?

I don't have one, I don't know what the updated version says, I'd be interested to find out.

As for your inability to understand my throwaway comment, "Makes a guy think," which you've been pursuing relentlessly through this thread, I'm sorry, as I said before it'll just have to be a mystery.

[bemildred]

36. Here:

http://www.palestine-un.org/plo/frindex.html

You should check out the Peace Process Documents sub-menu for the full context.

[Lithos]

37. Locking

Discussion has wandered off topic.

Lithos
I/P Forum Moderator