As the Hamas team laughs- Joking about Palestinian suffering.

[Tom Joad]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/684258.html
(The subtitle is the one provided on the Haaretz home page)
By Gideon Levy
The Hamas team had not laughed so much in a long time. The team, headed by the prime minister's advisor Dov Weissglas and including the Israel Defense Forces chief of staff, the director of the Shin Bet and senior generals and officials, convened for a discussion with Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni on ways to respond to the Hamas election victory. Everyone agreed on the need to impose an economic siege on the Palestinian Authority, and Weissglas, as usual, provided the punch line: "It's like an appointment with a dietician. The Palestinians will get a lot thinner, but won't die," the advisor joked, and the participants reportedly rolled with laughter. And, indeed, why not break into laughter and relax when hearing such a successful joke? If Weissglas tells the joke to his friend Condoleezza Rice, she would surely laugh too.
But Weissglas' wisecrack was in particularly poor taste. Like the thunder of laughter it elicited, it again revealed the extent to which Israel's intoxication with power drives it crazy and completely distorts its morality. With a single joke, the successful attorney and hedonist from Lilenblum Street, Tel Aviv demonstrated the chilling heartlessness that has spread throughout the top echelon of Israel's society and politics. While masses of Palestinians are living in inhumane conditions, with horrifying levels of unemployment and poverty that are unknown in Israel, humiliated and incarcerated under our responsibility and culpability, the top military and political brass share a hearty laugh a moment before deciding to impose an economic siege that will be even more brutal than the one until now.
The proposal to put hungry people on a diet is accepted here without shock, without public criticism; even if only said in jest, it is incomparably worse than the Danish caricature. It reflects a widespread mood that will usher in cruel, practical measures. If until now one could argue that Israel primarily demonstrated insensitivity to the suffering of the other and closed its eyes (especially the stronger classes, busy with their lives of plenty) while a complete nation was groaning only a few kilometers away, now Israel is also making jokes at the expense of the other's suffering.
__________________________________________

I will let folks find the rest of this clicking on the link.
This is a humanitarian disaster!

People should know that because of the occupation, Palestinian economy has been severely restricted.

“There is a humanitarian crisis in the West Bank and Gaza. It is not the result of a natural disaster. Instead, it is a crisis imposed by a powerful State on its neighbor”, a UN Report stated, this was published in 2003. Since then, things have only worsened. Aid groups, like the International Red Cross, see that the situation is due to the occupation, and insist that “Palestinians’ basic rights under international humanitarian law are respected” (International Red Cross).

See for example what Oxfam says about the situation in Gaza.
http://www.oxfam.org.uk/what_we_do/issues/trade/euromed/ripples.htm

The point is, that Israel policy is to punish severely a whole civilian population for its political choices. It will even withhold taxes and customes revenue which it collects from Palestinians.

It would be good to review that the under the Geneva Convention:
I. The Fourth Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilians in Time of War enjoins the Occupying Power to:

Ensure food and medical supplies for the civilian population, especially if the resources of the occupied territory are inadequate, employing the “fullest extent of the means available to it.” (Article 55)

Children will die from these decisions Weisglass laughs at. These policy choices will not bring peace, will not bring compliance to Israeli wishes, it will only bring more resistance, more hopelessness.

[madrchsod]

1. the things i could say but won`t

let`s just say this will not solve the problem but that`s not their intention to do so.

[pelsar]

2. wrong facts...

People should know that because of the occupation, Palestinian economy has been severely restricted.
______________

the palestenian economy upuntil intifada I (under the occupation) was one of the faster growing economies....at least get the facts straight.

as far as one of our politicians making a stuided joke....no we dont get all "excited over it"...they're not overly bright and they say a lot of stuiped things...this was just one more. Unlike americans we know our politicians are just people, we dont expect perfection and dont hold them to standards that are unreachable...we're tolerent of their mistakes....

because one guy made a joke in poor taste...hardly means the whole govt is guilty...isnt that akin to saying "all palestenains are terrorist because of what one stuipid palestenian said?

[Tom Joad]

4. People are hungry and unemployed. This is a disaster.

Even before the intifadah many were poor and unemployed. The West Bank was being carved up into little pieces by the Labor/Likud administrations. Movement was severely restricted.

The fact remains that Weisglass, who is not stupid at all, probably, but seems to take glee in the suffering of others. One can call that a sign of moral depravity, almost seems sociopathic. So will he lose his job over this? Or will he be still be a voice for this "centrist" Kadima Party? After all, this is not some lowly government bureaucrat speaking, this is the prime minister's advisor...

Further, the fact that they were laughing it up is not even the crucial point. These policies are deadly.

[sabbat hunter]

29. are you saying

that israel must give the palestinians jobs even after they pull out of the west bank?

after all many many palestinians worked in israel before the uprisings began.

IMO if israel wants to build a wall along the approximate green line and not allow any palestinians in, then that is their right as a sovereign nation.

[Tom Joad]

41. When is Israel pulling out of the West Bank? Look at this map.

There is nothing planned for Israel to pull out of the West Bank. You know something the rest of us don't??

Love to hear it.

The plans I have heard is for Israel to create small, walled Bantustans in the West Bank. Palestinian communities will be disconnected, and in-between them Jewish-only settlements. Israel will even take the Jordan Valley. This will make it nearly impossible to create a viable economy.

The wall that is being built often is not even close to the Green Line. So rather than give your opinion about an imaginary Wall, talk about what is being built.

See this http://www.strategicassessments.org/library/Disengagement/SAI%20ITAG%20DISENGAGEMENT%20MAP.pdf

Dial-up warning. Large pdf file.
Also Human Rights warning. Gross injustice to be made plain.

[barb162]

6. I thought some of the talkback points at the bottom of the article

were interesting, like a joke is better than a suicide bomb, etc

[Tom Joad]

7. These policies will kill more people than a suicide bomb. etc

[barb162]

9. the Palestinian Prime Minister disagrees with you

He says he'll get the money from the Mideast. Are you indicating he's wrong?

[Tom Joad]

11. I hope he is right. The Israeli cabinet was laughing it up because

they thought they would see hungry Palestinians.

[barb162]

15. With all the Arab oil money, no Palestinians should be starving

[Tom Joad]

20. Then Israeli govt officials would have nothing to laugh about.

[barb162]

22. Sure they will; they're doing a cartoon contest of their own

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/684696.html

[Colorado Blue]

66. Oh baloney.

You really think that's what they want? They are trying to figure out ways to protect themselves from future attack.

Nobody is taking this danger seriously.

WHY?

[bemildred]

3. Dov seems confused about what dieticians do.

What a moron. This seems more like moral and intellectual bankruptcy that intoxication with power. This is a continuation to the policy for dealing with the Palestinians that got Hamas elected in the first place.

[barb162]

5. This is total nonsense as " Hamas dismisses Israeli sanctions"

See the thread I just started (Hamas dismisses Israeli sanctions) where the Palestinian PM says there are "lots of alternatives"

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[barb162]

13. Why don't you tell us all what I have called them.. Link please?

which thread(s)?

[Tom Joad]

14. May have been someone else. So i self-deleted that comment.

[populistdriven]

8. Why don't the rest of the Arab countries provide aid to Palestine?

[barb162]

10. Ah, question of the century! With all that oil money and all

Some would say it's not their problem. Some would say let it fester. Some people wonder why Palestinian leaders like Arafat etal were for years pocketing hundreds of millions in foreign aid meant for the Palestinian people. Because of that huge corruption, some countries feel it's money down the drain. Kuwait kicked a lot or all of the Palestinians out when Iraq attacked Kuwait because the Palestinians sided with Iraq. The list of reasons goes on and on.

[Andromeda]

16. I've been wondering that myself.

It seems logical, but apparently the Palestinians have been treated quite badly by some of the Arab states and have received little or no help from them.

[Behind the Aegis]

17. Simply...

...they don't care!

It would be a shame for the Palestinian people to continue to suffer, but the stark reality is that the Arab world doesn't care for them as much as they hate Israel.

[Violet_Crumble]

18. Uh, the Arab states have given aid to the Palestinians...

Was this sort of thing incorrect?

'The US is urging Arab states to continue funding a Hamas-led Palestinian Authority, even though Washington is threatening to cut its own aid. Western diplomats said yesterday that George Bush's administration had already contacted Arab governments that give the Palestinian Authority support and requested them to continue their funding.'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,,1698730,00.html

Violet...

[populistdriven]

19. Yes, but the numbers show the Arab countries don't care

(from the article linkd above)

The Palestinian finances are:

Budget
2005 total: $1.96bn (£1.1bn)

Foreign aid
Total annual aid: About $1bn

Major donors
EU and individual European nations: $570m - $270m for salaries of Palestinian workers and $300m for development and infrastructure projects.

US: $300m exclusively for development projects

Saudi Arabia: $46m

The numbers show that the Arab countries hate Israel so much that Palestine's suffering is leveraged to fuel more hatred of Israel.

[barb162]

21. The numbers do tell the story; Europe and US supply the moohla

[Andromeda]

24. Hate seems to be a stronger emotion than compassion...

The numbers show that the Arab countries hate Israel so much that Palestine's suffering is leveraged to fuel more hatred of Israel.

If the Arab states truly cared about the Palestinians more than they hated Israel we wouldn't be in this mess.

[Violet_Crumble]

26. Should there have been a sarcasm tag at the end of yr post?

'The numbers show that the Arab countries hate Israel so much...' etc...

Numbers tend to show what anyone looks at them wants to read into them. In this case it'd be that no matter what number was in the $$$column, there'd be an incorrect claim made that Arab states don't supply aid to the Palestinians. What next? Complaints that coz they don't give aid to Israel that shows how much they hate Israel?

Also, what linked article are you referring to? It wasn't the Gideon Levy one, but I may have missed it. Also, it seems to be a bit suspicious as the US only gave $70m in aid last year, and that Saudi Arabia is supposedly the only ME country that gives aid to the Palestinian Authority, especially as the article I posted specifically talked about Arab states and not one state only...

Violet...

[barb162]

33. The numbers clearly show EU and US provide huge support

and the Arab countries provide very little.

[barb162]

34. US gave about 400million last year, not your claim of 70 million

[Violet_Crumble]

55. Have you got any actual links to support that claim?

Y'know, to something ironclad like USAID or something like that, rather than a snippet in some newspaper article? Because just pulling a number out of the air and saying it's 'about...' doesn't fill me with any confidence that it's anywhere in the ballpark. btw, it must only be direct aid from the US govt straight to the PA, as I suspect that's how other donor countries have been judged in this thread...

Violet...

[barb162]

76. Here's a BBC link 2/16/06 showing $400 million by the USA ,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4718616.stm

BTW, if you feel this BBC site is not adequate, feel free to wade through the various US State Dept links on the same subject and find the same thing.

[Wordie]

23. Be careful what you wish for...

The AP article from which I got the quotes and info below has just recently been modified to remove some of it, but here's what the article originally said:

...On Monday, Malaysian Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi said the 57-member Organization of the Islamic Conference would provide institutional and financial aid to the Hamas-led Palestinian Authority. He did not say how much the OIC, the world's largest Islamic group, would give or when it would provide the funds.

...Foreign ministers from several Arab countries, meanwhile, were to meet in Algiers on Monday to discuss a plan to send about $50 million a month to the Palestinian Authority.

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/breaking_news/13913960.htm

Haniyeh (the new Palestinian President) said he was "deeply sorry" that Hamas had been labeled a terrorist group by Israel and addressed the funding issue by saying, "We have other Arab and Islamic countries and members of the international community who are ready to stand next to the Palestinian people."

Others who are calling for financial support to the Hamas-led Palestinians are Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood and Iran. The original article said that the Muslim Brotherhood had already started a donation campaign.

So, the policy of "isolating" the Palestinians seems to be having the effect of leading to greater involvement of some players that I'm sure Israel and the US would far prefer to not see getting involved, such as the Muslim Brotherhood and Iran. As I said, be careful what you wish for...and for unintended consequences arising from your stupid actions.

Good work, Israel and the US.

[barb162]

36. this analysis is off base.

[Wordie]

37. I guess that depends on where your base lies. There are lots of people

warning that this hardline approach will backfire besides me. I understand that the quartet members (except the US, of course) want to give Hamas more time to take over the reins of government before making meddlesome and unilateral decisions that can only exacerbate a difficult situation. That's what former President Carter advises as well (and if you'll recall, he's the one who brokered the peace between Israel and Egypt, and who would have imagined that would ever happen, before it did.)

But if a person is only interested in portraying all Palestinians, whether of Fatah, Hamas, or any other persuasion, as all wrong-headed terrorists, without any redeeming value at all, any suggestion that the Palestinians be given a break of any sort would sound like very bad analysis, I realize.

[eyl]

25. y'know, regardless of the desirability of such a policy,

it's fascinating to observe:

when an Iranian leader or Palestinian spokesman makes statements calling to wipe Israel off the map, or to slaughter Jews, or other highly racist and inflammatory remarks, I see a host of commentators explaining how "it's just rhetoric" or "he didn't really mean it" or "he's just playing to his base". Let an Israeli figure make a comment, and it's instantly interpreted in the most literal and objectionable fashion possible (with redactions, since literally Weisglass said "they won't die").

Why is that, do you think?

[Violet_Crumble]

27. Obviously they're all anti-Semitic, eyl..

I mean, what else could it be? It's not like there's a host of commentators defending away every undesirable word or action of Israel while on the other hand squawking in outrage and feigned shock when relgious nutters talk the way religious nutters so...

Could it possibly be that the level of expectation at what crap will come from the Iranian leaders mouth next is low, while with Israel being a democracy, there's a different level of expectation than there would be if some of those Hebron settler nutjobs were running the show. Interpreting objectionable comments as being objectionable isn't done just to Israel either - a govt MP here last week tried to argue against abortion by saying that the Muslims would breed Australians out of existence, while ignoring the fact that the Muslims she was talking about are Australians as well (though I'm sure a small number of DUers would, given half the chance, go to great lengths to argue that her comments about Muslims not the slightest bit offensive). She got a hell of a lot of media attention and condemnation for what she said, and ended up being forced to apologise....

Violet...

[eyl]

28. Well,

I didn't bring AS up...

And I'm not talking about differing expectations. What I'm talking about is that anti-Israeli rhetoric is dismissed as "they didn't mean it" (not "what do you expect", which would be the result of differing expectations) while Israeli statements are taken to their most literal extreme. (I can't judge whether your analogy would apply without seeing the precise statement, but given you're description, the outrage wasn't due to a strictly literal interpretation of her words*)

*Or to make my meaning more precise, a less literal interpretation would not have given a different meaning.

[pelsar]

72. Admittance of the Double Standard.....

Could it possibly be that the level of expectation at what crap will come from the Iranian leaders mouth next is low, while with Israel being a democracy, there's a different level of expectation

I have no problem with the admittance of the double standard...that words uttered from irans president and rep of his country is considered "lesser" than that of those from a democracy. I see a democracy as infintily superiour to any form of dictatorship, religous or otherwise.

The problem lies in accepting the lower standard...why should it be accepted?....and where does it stop?

i say one standard for all.....no double standard, no "accepting" of the others less tolerent mentality

[Tom Joad]

30. But they do die, Eyl, they are dying.

[eyl]

31. Due to Weisglass' suggestion?

That was fast. Care to cite?

[Tom Joad]

32. This is not a suggestion, it is a policy. The existing poverty is already

killing people. There is no doubt this will increase, much to Wiesglass glee, no doubt.

To be more specific:

A humanitarian crisis is growing in the occupied territories of the West Bank and Gaza. A full 22% of Palestinian children under the age of 5 have been found to be suffering from malnutrition. Nearly 16% are suffering from anemia, many of whom will suffer from permanent negative effects on their physical and mental development as a result. This is the findings of a study sponsored by the United States Agency for International Development (USAID) and John Hopkins University, cited in a report put out by the United Nations Commission on Human Rights.

http://www.unhchr.ch/pdf/chr60/10add2AV.pdf

I know, I know, reactionaries alwas say poverty is the fault of the improvished. However, go to nearly any aid organization... from Oxfam to World Vision (a moderately conservative Christian organization) to the UN and they will say it is because of the structural obstacles placed on developement by the Occupation. Anyone who has been there can see it for his/her own eyes. That is not to say the PA has acted well in every circumstance, but for the Palestinian people who do their best to live their lives despite the occupation Israel makes it nearly impossible. And now, for Israel to deny $50 million a MONTH of Palestinian's own money is insane (laughter or no laughter). I agree with Jimmy Carter, this is a very bad policy.

[Colorado Blue]

59. And what caused the poverty? Before the intifada the

Palestinian economy was one of the fastest growing IN THE WORLD.

Statehood was a very real possibility.

But NOOOOO.

[barb162]

75. Yes, the economy plummeted duringn the intifada.

[barb162]

35. I have noticed the same

[Matilda]

38. It may have something to do with the fact that Iran,

in spite of Ahmadinejad's iditiotic and unhelpful comments, doesn't have the power to wipe Israel
off the map.

But Israel does have the power to wipe out the Palestinian population, and is slowly doing just that.

[Colorado Blue]

39. What? The Palestinian population has grown some 10 times

over since 1948.

Unbelievable comment.

[Tom Joad]

42. How many hundreds of thousands have had to flee their homeland?

How many remain bitterly oppressed in their homeland now?

[Colorado Blue]

43. Tom Joad, the estimate after the War of 1948 hovers around

700,000.

More went to Jordan after 1967, as King Hussein offered them citizenship. Jordan is now about 70% Palestinian.

The real problem, the greatest problem I think, is the 4.5 million people who now live in WWII era refugee camps throughout the region, unassimilated and lacking rights. They've also come under attack, by Syrians and Lebanese.

The situation sucks.

That is why regional cooperation is vital, people need compensation and a future. Rational creative ideas are needed, that do not include making more victims, which are not destructive but constructive, and which will take into account the fragile ecosystem and the fact that, simply put, an area smaller than New Jersey, which is mostly desert, couldn't in the best of circumstances sustain the lives of more than 10-12 million people. Therefore we need to stop beating the same old drums and start THINKING.

For the immediate future, as long as the Arab League and Hamas, et.al., remain on the path of war and non-recognition of Israel's existence, the people will continue suffering, Israeli and Arab alike. That is wrong.

Worse, the people of the region - Egypt, Lebanon, Israel, Palestine, Syria, Jordan, will remain poor and stressed. This could change in a very few years if people would just drop the crap and get to work. There IS hope, hope for advanced water and desalinization, electrical, agricultural and industrial projects - but people must look to the future instead of to the past.

Israel is obviously moving toward the center and recognizes Palestinian rights, but must have secure and defensible borders and a safe capitol. Palestinians need an economic infrastructure and freedom of movement. None of this can happen in an atmosphere of fear and distrust. The election of Hamas has greatly complicated an already difficult situation.

We can help work things out but first we need to step back and look at the big picture, and try to think positively, creatively and with the entire region in our mind's eye.

We need to realize that change was always inevitable, regardless of what caused the change, drop the blame game, and try to support one another. I/P is just a microcosm of what is going on all over the world. Will we continue scrabbling over a scraps, or will be open our arms, embrace each other and move toward the future together?

[Englander]

46. End The Occupation.

As for this;

--Israel is obviously moving toward the center and recognizes Palestinian rights, but must have secure and defensible borders and a safe capitol. Palestinians need an economic infrastructure and freedom of movement.--

I'd ask for links to support the absurd claims made, but since they're absurd claims
that aren't based on actual evidence, any links that would support those claims would be
equally absurd, or non-existant. I have to ask, Cb, do you actually believe this stuff
about rights being recognised, or is it because believing myths is more comfortable than
accepting the reality? I mean, the claims being made are completely at odds with any
objective reading of the situation, they could be defined as propaganda, really. What
was that quote of yours from last week about propaganda, & it's purpose?

[Colorado Blue]

64. Sure. That would solve everything, right? That is completely

NOT going to solve ANYTHING.

There are no defensible borders and 20 of the 22 Arab League states don't even recognize Israel and the P.A. has just elected a terrorist organization, dedicated to the destruction of Israel, and which believes that the whole M.E. should be Islamic, and there are no economic plans in place, Al Qaeda has just attacked Saudi Arabia and has promised to do it again; Iraq has just lost some priceless mosques and dozens of people; Iran is trying to go nuclear and has threatened Israel's very existence; dozens of people have been killed in Nigeria; there's an active genocide underway in Sudan BUT if Israel meekly crawls back behind the Auschwitz Line, stranding hundreds of thousands of her citizens, cutting herself off from her holiest sites and dividing her capital, as well as losing valuable early warning electronic arrays and losing ALL control over terrorist attempts on Israel herself, coming from the West Bank - -ALL WILL BE WELL.

Right?

What we need are some concrete ideas for economic development, some firm and rational plans for economic development and regional cooperation to solve some very serious problems. And people have got to get serious about disarming the militias. AND people need to realize that Israel is part of the Middle East and is part of a whole syndrome of problems. Looking at every single house and every single bone in Jerusalem whilst ignoring the displacement of 2,000,000 people in the Sudan, or complaining because the P.A. relies upon money from elsewhere whilst millions are actually starving - that's just blindness. All of these problems are CONNECTED.

Oh - and I forgot. One of the worst militias, elected AFTER the Gaza withdrawal - is now the government of the P.A.

Israel dragged 10,000 of her citizens out of the homes they'd created in Gaza, leaving behind valuable greenhouses which have since been destroyed. Daily rocket fire emanates from Gaza now, damaging property and injuring people. Suicide attacks have continued. Most have been interdicted but the rate of attempts has climbed. I understand Hizbollah has now set up a headquarters in Gaza?

Instead of creating a more stable enviroment, the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza has resulted in a more chaotic and unstable situation with less of a buffer zone.

So further withdrawals will result in peace and quiet?

WHY?

Meanwhile I would say that the Palestinians most certainly were given an opportunity in Gaza. The reaction there hasn't resulted in increased confidence in Israel. Nevertheless, the centrist party Kadima, which was predicated on the existence of a Palestinian state, continues to lead comfortably in the polls. The Likud is pretty much a fringe party now.

But as long as the Israelis feel they have an enemy on their doorstep and not a friend, they are going to do what they have to to protect themselves. And as I said above, what has happened since the Gaza withdrawal is the exact opposite of inspiring confidence.

There's no propaganda in these words. Just fact.

[Violet_Crumble]

69. Sorry, but that's yet again a totally one-sided and biased version...

In fact, it's so utterly ridiculous and obviously what you claim it isn't that I trust DUers reading to have the sheer common-sense not to take anything said in it too seriously. This blaming everything and everyone but Israel for everything isn't constructive at all...

Violet...

[Englander]

73. Priceless.

--There's no propaganda in these words. Just fact.--

Yeah, you carry on believing that, I prefer to define clueless, biased opinion as
propaganda. For a statement to be defined as a fact, it would need to contain an
element of truth, rather than an element of subjective opinion. I can't see how anyone
who actually believes the stuff you've produced thinks that they're fully informed, or
capable of being fully informed, if an astoundingly lop-sided analysis of events is their
world-view, then, personally, I wouldn't take such folks seriously.

[Dutch]

80. Very good point. n/t

[Englander]

82. Where?

Why? Because it confirms yer prejudices, or for some other reason?

[Dutch]

83. In the post I replied to.

And because it's true, even if your prejudices blind you to it.

[Englander]

84. The 1st reason it is then.

Unless you want to explain, or elaborate why such-&-such a point
is a good one, merely saying "Good point!" doesn't count for much.
If you could explain why any point is a good one, it would illustrate
that my earlier comment was incorrect, & was misplaced, & I'll apologise
for it. If any explanation isn't offered, then it appears that it was correct.
Could you say which point was good, or true?
How am I prejudiced? Is that in the way that I'm not at all, & yer
statement is meaningless, or is there another reason?

[Englander]

81. Who are these "host of commentators"?

It's the difference between rhetoric/reality.
Iranian/Palestinain statements = rhetoric, not able to be fulfilled.
Weissglas &tc statements = actual policy, actually happening.

[Coastie for Truth]

40. In the same league with Foreign Minister Ernest Bevin

This is not laughing and joking -- this is clubbing people to death, shooting orphans for throwing an orange at a British soldier.

This is sending people back to the ghettoes of Eastern Europe where the local peasants were resuming the holocaust

<<<snip>>>
When Harry Truman, Roosevelt's successor, learned that Jewish displaced persons were living in camps whose conditions paralleled that of Nazi work camps, he pressed Great Britain to open the doors of Palestine to 100,000 European Jewish refugees. Stalling for time, Foreign Minister Ernest Bevin suggested that he and Truman convene the joint Committee to meet with the refugees in Europe, as well as leaders in the Arab world and Palestine, before deciding whether mass Jewish immigration to Palestine was feasible. Truman assented, and Gruber, armed with her passport and camera, accompanied the committee members to the squalid DP camps in Europe, North Africa and the Middle East.

<<<SNIP>>>

The committee members spent four months in Europe, Palestine and the Arab countries and another month in Switzerland digesting their experiences. At the end of its deliberations, the committee's 12 members - six Britons and six Americans - unanimously agreed that Britain should allow 100,000 Jewish immigrants to settle in Palestine. Britain's foreign minister, Ernest Bevin, however, rejected the finding.



Eventually the issue was taken up by the United Nations, which appointed a Special Committee on Palestine. Like Its predecessor, UNSCOP visited the camps in Germany, then traveled to the Arab states and Palestine. Gruber accompanied UNSCOP as a correspondent for the New York Herald. While in Jerusalem, she learned that a former American pleasure boat, renamed the Exodus, had been attempting to deliver 4,500 Jewish refugees - including 600 children, mostly orphans - when it was attacked by five British destroyers and a cruiser. Gruber left immediately for Haifa and witnessed the Exodus entering the harbor, looking, as Gruber wrote, "like a matchbox splintered by a nutcracker."

During the "battle," the British rammed the Exodus and stormed it with guns, tear gas and truncheons. Gruber noted that the crew, mostly Jews from America and Palestine, fought back with potatoes, sticks and cans of kosher meat. The second officer, Bill Bernstein of San Francisco, was clubbed to death trying to prevent a British soldier from entering the wheel house. Two orphans were killed, one shot in the face point blank after he tossed an orange at a soldier.

<<<snip>>>

HEAVILY EDITED TO MEET SECTION 107 "FAIR USE" REQUIREMENTS

[Colorado Blue]

44. People, lighten up. Not to stereotype, but Jews are notorious

for laughing at the worst situations.

Don't try to make a propaganda mountain out of a molehill.

We laugh so we won't cry. We argue with G*d Himself.

Get a grip. The Palestinians are not going to left to starve and die. The Israelis and EU are already moving to ensure the flow of humanitarian aid. But it would be good if the oil rich Arab states would cough up more than lip service.

[eyl]

45. To illustrate the point

A few weeks back, a participant in a popular Israeli "comic" show , mishak machur*, suggested that, to prevent Sharon taking the Premiership back, Olmert should "go into <Sharon's>** room and perform a disengagement". It got a lot of laughs - mine included. I can assure you that I don't find the prospect of Sharon's death, much less his assassination, amusing.

*The show is very roughly analogous to "Whose Line is it Anyway"

**BTW, does anyone know how I can make a word apear in brackets?

[idontwantaname]

49. to illustrate the point

the IDF would be reluctant to maliciously let palestinians starve... however there seems to be no problems with cutting off access to farmlands or temporary deprivation of resources.

while walking on the streets in tel aviv i couldnt help but notice all the shiny beautiful produce in the markets... then i thought about the residents of qalqilya and budrus who may go for days without fresh produce.

[Tom Joad]

50. You should see the settlements. Like affluent suburbs built right next

to poor communities (and formerly much more prosperous). This land taken from Palestinians, and its right in front of their faces. Swimming pools, nice lawns and gardens (with water taken from Palestinians)...

Maybe the settlers make a big joke of this too. But the laughter is optional. Either way the cruelty of these policies is apparent.

[idontwantaname]

54. you forget to mention...

the roads which take settlers out of the west bank are paved not 100m from these palestinian villages you speak of. large rock and concrete mounds(roadblocks) have planted themselves on the roads which link the villages to the "settler highway". in the morning and afternoons you will see groups of palestinian children walking along these "settler roads" on their way to and from school. make no mistake about it, this is discrimination.

[Colorado Blue]

57. Hello? Those separate roads have a great deal to do with

the fact that Israelis get shot on the highways.

[Violet_Crumble]

62. I think you've forgotten the occupation and settlement building...

..along with the associated destruction of Palestinian homes and farms. That's what has a great deal to do with Israelis being shot at...

Violet...

[Colorado Blue]

60. REALLY? You know what's 2 blocks from some of the

ritziest highrises in Chicago? The projects. That's right.

When poverty is erased in America you can start bitching about the I/P war zone.

In fact, I think that's a very good place to start, for people who are REALLY interested in "doing some good". Right here in the US of A we have people going hungry, lost to drugs. Big chunks of our population go down to gang violence, drug crimes and hopelessness.

AND WE'RE NOT AT WAR WITH THEM.

Or are we?

If we are at war with our own poor people, why is that? If not, why aren't we doing more to help them?

Maybe we are too busy "fixing" the Middle East.

Blech.

[Violet_Crumble]

61. Uh, the settlements are built on OCCUPIED TERRITORY...

Unless I'm mistaken, the projects in Chicago aren't occupied by a belligerant foreign power.

btw, telling people they can only start 'bitching' about the I/P conflict when poverty is erased in America is such a ridiculous way of thinking for the following reasons:

1 - It's one of the most blatant *LOOK OVER THERE, NOT HERE!!!!* moments I've seen for a while...

2 - The likelihood is that poverty in the US will never be totally eradicated...

3 - People can 'do good' for multiple causes and not just one..

4 - That same logic would mean that you think people shouldn't 'bitch' about places like Sudan, but on many ocassions in this forum you've expressed concern that people posting in the I/P forum don't post about the Sudan...

There's more, but I'm hungry and I have to go have lunch...

Violet...

[Tom Joad]

79. Money that could solve poverty here is wasted in colonialism abroad

The US paid for the settlements. We are paying for War in Iraq.

So solidarity with people in the projects in Chicago or Oakland or South Central or New Orleans means ending support for war and colonialism abroad.

500 Billion for the war in Iraq. 5 billion for Israel. Ask anyone in those projects if they could have thought of a better way for that money to have been spent?

Want us to stop complaining about Israeli policies? Tell Israel to ask some other country to subsidize it might be a good start.

[Englander]

47. Yeah, what's the fuss about?

Nothing to see here, &tc.

Although, if the situation were reversed, or if a different group was
being persecuted, or if a gag was made about non-Arabic individuals, the
reaction would be radically different. Then, words like "horror", or "evil",
or "morality", &tc would make an appearance. The calls for condemnation, &
the attempts to present such a gag as the epitomy of *absolute*evil*, would
no doubt, make an appearance. Who knows, there might even be a poem or two.

Personally, I find this attempt to link possible starvation with an attempt
at humour indicative of a recurring theme/attitude that occasionally presents
itself, that is, the attempts to portray Palestinians, &tc as objects un-worthy
of having any traits other than being terrorwists. I can see that there are such
characters who would find these comments by Weissglas hilarious, but I can't see
how such characters should be thought of much beyond being clueless bigots, really.

[Tom Joad]

48. Again, this is not a *joke* but a policy. Hunger is a reality already.

The Israeli govt has often blocked the flow of commerce and humanitarian aid... from letting food rot at ports, to blocking ambulances going to aid the injured, to this scheme of blocking tax dollars collected by Israel on Palestininians behalf not being given to its rightful owners (an idiotic scheme President Carter has spoken about).

There are Israelis like Gideon Levy who call attention to this. And human rights organizations like B'tsalem http://www.btselem.org and more http://www.stoptorture.org.il/eng/ that who also speak out. Palestinians are demanding their human rights, and people of goodwill should stand with them.

Levy:
The proposal to put hungry people on a diet is accepted here without shock, without public criticism; even if only said in jest, it is incomparably worse than the Danish caricature. It reflects a widespread mood that will usher in cruel, practical measures. If until now one could argue that Israel primarily demonstrated insensitivity to the suffering of the other and closed its eyes (especially the stronger classes, busy with their lives of plenty) while a complete nation was groaning only a few kilometers away, now Israel is also making jokes at the expense of the other's suffering.
_________________________________________________________________________________________

The laughter here is because of the deliberate causing of pain inflicted on others. However, it is not the laughter that will hurt the Palestinian people, it is the policy of the powerful taking meager rations from the oppressed.

[barb162]

51. Oil money from various Mideast countries will prevent hunger

[Tom Joad]

52. Why not freedom of movement? Why can't they have

their tax money? Why must Israel forever deny Palestinians basic human rights?

[Colorado Blue]

67. They can't have freedom of movement because they are

constantly trying to smuggle bombs.

Hello? For every attack that succeeds, dozens are attempted.

Why is this simple fact so difficult to understand and accept?

Basic human rights come with basic responsibilities, like not trying to blow up your neighbor.

Before the intifadas, there WAS freedom of movement, there was no wall, and there was a great deal of interaction between the two communities, and strong economic ties.

The fear with Hamas in charge, especially since the Gaza withdrawal, is that the money will be used to buy weapons.

Israel is bracing for attack. Does that register with you at all? This isn't some game.

[Violet_Crumble]

70. Why that simple 'fact' is so difficult to understand...

..is because the Palestinian population isn't constantly trying to smuggle bombs, and to believe such a thing would make me a bit of a bigot, imo...

Violet...

[president4aday]

53. The EU and US owe the Palestinians the most

not the mid-east oil sheiks.

The military hardware Israel uses to rob the Palestinians of their lives and country comes from the EU and US, not the Persian Gulf.

[Colorado Blue]

68. Why? The Mid East oil sheiks are, to a large degree,

responsible for having maintained the Palestinian situation.

Have they recognized Israel and worked with her to create defensible borders and helped create a vital economy in the poor regions of the Arab world?

NO.

Have they tried to work with the West to create more open and creative societies, in which the people of the M.E. could flourish and grow?

NO.

Have they tried to come up with compensation packages both for the refugees who've been in camps since 1948 as well as for the 900,000 Jews who were expelled from Middle Eastern communities after 1948?

NO.

The oil rich states are a major part of the problem. Israel/Palestine wasn't created in a vacuum and the fact that it's still an open sore is no accident.

It takes a lot of work to keep people pissed off for 60 years. It takes real chutzpah to live in palatial splendor whilst the annual income of Syria is a little over $4K/year.

Let's see what's gone on since 1948: TWO diasporas - one Arab, one Jewish; several wars, untold terror attacks. Iran/Iraq killed over 1,000,000 people. The Lebanese Civil War, over 100,000. Black September in Jordan, probably tens of thousands. The Yom Kippur War claimed 1% of Israel's population, as did the war of 1948. There's an active genocide in the Arab League state of Sudan, with millions dislocated and hundreds of thousands killed. Minorities all over the region are oppressed - Berbers and Copt, Kurds and Assyrians. There are oppressive governments and now, sectarian violence threatens civil war in Iraq.

I/P isn't isolated from the rest of the M.E. It's just been a pawn.

[Violet_Crumble]

71. Israel is also largely responsible...

n/t

[president4aday]

74. Get real. The Palestinian are being killed by Israelis, not

oil sheiks.

[Coastie for Truth]

77. Thought exercise

Start with Chapter 1 (Bourgeois and Proletarians) of Marx's Manifesto (scan it into an editable version)--

Every occurrence of "Bourgeois" - replace it with "oil companies" and every occurrence of "Proletarians" replace it with "Arab Proletarians."

Now, get yourself a good, academic history of the House of Saud, and maybe Craig Unger's "House of Bush, House of Saud" for collateral reading. And get your self a good, academic history of the House of Romanov and pre-Revolution Russia.

You at least have good plot for a movie.

The Arab Proletarians are being raped by the Oil Sheiks and the mineral exploiters (like Bush, Cheney, Halliburton, ExxonMobil, Shell, etc.)

[president4aday]

78. Thanks coastie. However, never having read the Communist

Manifesto or a history of Saudi Arabia.

(Having a disabled kid kinda precludes delving into long and dry tomes.)

the point of your thought exercise is, and will remain, lost on me.

However, common sense dictates that is Israel's 40 + year pogrom that is the real
cause of the Palestinian's misery.

Whatever the Saudi's are doing, or Marx said, is simply raised as a smokescreen to obscure
the Zionists (and their US and EU enablers) culpability.

The Palestinian know who's responsible for their oppression.

Ask any Palestinian or visit any Palestinian web site like electronic intifada.

They are not laying the blame on the Saudi's or giving it a Marxist interpretation.

[Coastie for Truth]

56. Further to "People, lighten up. Not to stereotype, but Jews are notorious"

FDNY Attacked Again At WTC; The Twin Towers Of Integrity And Trust
<<<snip>>>
Whether you are a police officer, a medical examiner, a trauma surgeon, combat soldier or a firefighter, we all have our professional slang words to describe the sometimes-unspeakable situations we are charged to deal with. Words like “slab, stiffs, crispy critters, shake and bake” are all words we use to mentally disassociate ourselves from the emotional trauma we encounter. We do this in order to perform our jobs. Otherwise we would fall apart and become emotional wrecks, impotent to apply any encouraging solution to a gruesome situation. This in no way implies callousness or disrespect to the victims, but rather is a psychological barricade to protect our emotional psyches so we can come out of the incident somewhat normal and ready for the next alarm. Can you imagine a surgeon going through the same grief and anxiety as that of the family in the waiting room while performing the operation under the guise of empathy and compassion? Of course not! In fact, the doctor can be talking about golf or any other subject under the sun while listening to music over the speaker system or what ever else might clear his mind to perform his job effectively without focussing that he is elbow deep in human entrails.

<<<snip>>>

Been there, done that.

Eleven years in the US Coast Guard plus several more years in Red Cross Disaster Assistance. And I may refer to a corpse as a "Floater" - but I knew that that corpse was once a vivacious 17 year old girl who loved water skiing.

Lieutenant, United States Coast Guard (Honorable Discharge)

[Colorado Blue]

58. Thank you.

[Tom Joad]

63. Some here don't understand. This is a criminal policy

being formulated by the Israeli government, to deliberately cause MORE pain to Palestinian people.

Let's say my house were burned down and somehow i made some joke about that. People might find that understandable, that might be a way of coping with a very difficult situation. It might even be understandable if i made a joke when my neighbor's house burned down... again it might be my way of coping or helping my neighbor to cope.

It would be very different if i made jokes about my neighbor's house that burned down... like say... "now the neighborhood has a soccer field" if I were the arsonist.

There is a real example of that, btw. Go to
http://www.jnul.huji.ac.il/IA/ArchivedSites/Gushshalom010204/www.gush-shalom.org/archives/kurdi_eng.html

[Colorado Blue]

65. Oh for pete's sake. The US, Israel AND the EU will continue

the flow of humanitarian aid to the PA, and probably also, unfortunately, Iran will be sending money and MAYBE even those oh so generous wealthy Arab states.

The Palestinians, as a group, have probably received more money than any other group of people ON THIS PLANET.

Let us go over the facts again: before Intifada II, the Palestinian economy was one of the fastest growing in the world, connected to the best economy in the M.E. - Israel. So of course, instead of working on the statehood deal and proceeding along the so-called roadmap, we had another war. Which has killed thousands of people and maimed and bereaved thousands more, done immense damage to both economies and destroyed relationships between the two communities.

Meanwhile, the Israelis voluntarily withdrew from Gaza and left valuable infrastructure behind, which would have provided jobs and economic opportunities for hundreds of Palestinians. This has been destroyed. Instead, we have non-stop rocket fire across the border, continuing attacks and the election of the terrorist organization which has killed hundreds of Israeli civilians, and which is dedicated to her demise. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to want to limit the amount of money the P.A. has available to buy weapons. In the past, weapons given to Fatah to help control the other militants, were turned on the Israelis.

So they are somewhat skeptical of Hamas' good intentions.

DO YOU BLAME THEM?

If there is criminality involved here, I respectfully submit THAT GOES BOTH WAYS.