Four-Letter Word (Avnery)

[bemildred]

The bits on the election process are interesting by way of contrast with the expensive, contrived soap operas we have force-fed to us here in the states.

(snip)

It says that the huge majority of the Jewish Israelis do not believe in peace. Peace is being conceived as a dream, something that has nothing to do with reality. A party that speaks about peace brands itself as living in a fantasy world. Worse, it may be suspected of "Arab-loving". What could be more disastrous?

So what do Israelis believe in? They want a Jewish State, with as large a Jewish majority as possible. That is agreed among all the Jewish parties.
They believe in fixing the final borders of Israel unilaterally, without speaking with those Palestinians. The Palestinians, as everybody knows, have just elected Hamas and want to throw us into the sea.

What borders? Ehud Olmert is gradually disclosing what he has in mind. His map will not surprise the readers of this column. His Greater Israel includes all the territory trapped between the Green Line and the Separation Wall; and in addition the Jordan Valley; Greater Jerusalem, which includes the Ma'aleh Adumim settlement and the territory between it and the city (but giving up some densely populated Arab neighborhoods); the settlement blocs of Ariel, Alfei-Menasheh, Modi'in Illit and Gush Etzion; and "special security areas". He takes care not to draw an actual map, so there is no certainty about the borders of the settlement blocs. But he certainly aims at annexing more than half of the West Bank.

For Netanyahu, that is, of course, blatant treason, a shameful surrender to the Arabs. In his broadcasts, he denounces Olmert's borders as "borders inviting terrorism'. The Likud does actually draw a map, in which the Wall moves right to the center of the West Bank.

(snip)

Zmag

[tatertop]

1. When you want the truth look to Avnery

[meti57b]

2. Avnery, ... what a fraud!

He complains about six people putting prayers in the Western Wall for assorted goodies and he mentions none of them are asking for peace.

That suggests he believes what a person prays for is of importance, yet he fails to mention that prayer for peace is part of the daily prayer.

"Shemoneh Esrei" --- Amidah
daily prayer

Nineteenth Blessing: Prayer for peace and harmony

Grant and establish peace, goodness, blessing, graciousness, kindness and compassion upon us and upon all of Your people Israel.

Bless us our Father, all of us as one, with the light of Your countenance, for with the light of Your countenance, You, HaShem our G-d, gave us the Torah of LIfe and a love of kindness, righteousness, blessing, compassion, life and peace.

And may it be good in Your eyes to bless your people Israel, at every time and at every hour with Your peace.

Blessed are you, HaShem, Who blesses His people Israel with peace.

[Tom Joad]

3. Does "His People" include all the inhabitants of Israel?

How is that defined?

[pelsar]

4. isnt prayer a personal business....

or is now 'big brother" now entering into what people wish and pray for?

freedom of thought, of identity, is now to be regulated?....

[Tom Joad]

16. Prayer is personal.

I know that some would define the peace for "His" people differently.

Jerry Falwell would do it one way, Martin Luther King Jr, quite another way.

Abraham Herschel/Martin Buber would see it one way, Baruch Goldstein/Meir Kahane (the latter apparently a hero to a very few here) quite another way. I guess my question should not have been how was it defined by the author, but how is it do people see it who are quoting it now?

Thoughts and prayers are not what can help or hurt the situation though. It is the facts on the ground that make all the difference.

The article stated that Olmert wants to seize half the West Bank. Bibi wants more. So whatever the prayers are, or what they mean, the facts on the ground will mean perpetual war.

[meti57b]

5. The contention was that Jews do not talk about peace ....

and they do not pray for peace. That is a lie and a falsehood.

By "Israel", the prayer refers to the nationality or tribe, Israel from ancient times.

For any group to have peace with another group, by definition would mean that all groups associated or involved with each other would have peace with each other. How does any group have peace if their time and resources are eaten up fighting some other group.

Do Palestinians have a prayer for peace as part of their daily prayer?

[pelsar]

6. perhaps i can make it briefer.....

the israeli public has absolutly no confidence in the palestenain society to either make a "state" and be willing to live with us as good neighbors.

we really dont have to look very far...just over to Gaza (though we will have to duck while the kassams come flying over.....or we can listen to their TV/radio - the mainstream version for a view of how their young are now being educated.

Of course with Hamas in power, and they're pretty straight with their opinions....they have no intention of living peacefully with israel (or so they say.....)

maybe i've misread something....but to me the chaos in gaza, the tunnels, the kassams, the rioting against any intl who is left....says far more than any speach will. I dont believe that is the kind of society that i want, nor can i trust to live along side with me

[meti57b]

7. Pelsar, ... I agree. Your post is more to the point.

[Tom Joad]

8. Peace must come with justice for all. Or there is no peace.

Some to hope for only peace and quiet, not peace and justice.

[Jim Sagle]

9. And what makes you the judge?

[Tom Joad]

10. I am not judging, merely stating the obvious. As long as there is

oppression then prayers or hopes for peace is useless.

[Behind the Aegis]

11. That doesn't even make sense.

BECAUSE their is oppression and bigotry is why we NEED prayers and hope for peace.

[Tom Joad]

12. That's true. but if we are unwilling to work for the ending of the

oppression our prayers and hopes are in vain.

[Behind the Aegis]

13. Just because one prays for it, doesn't imply they aren't working for it.

[Tom Joad]

14. That is true too. I agree totally. eom

[pelsar]

15. no such animal....

justice for all?.....not on this earth....perhaps you might give a concrete example of where such a thing exists?