Pelosi, other House Democrats criticize Dean's Israel comments

[StandWatie]

Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean drew fire from House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi and several Jewish lawmakers on Wednesday over his remarks concerning Israel.

"This is not a time to be sending mixed messages," Dean's critics said in a letter circulated by Rep. Howard Berman, D-Calif., and signed by Pelosi and more than a dozen other Democratic House members who are supporting other candidates. "On the contrary, in these difficult times we must reaffirm our unyielding commitment to Israel's survival and raise our voices against all forms of terrorism and incitement."

<snip>
"I believe the position that I take on Israel is exactly the position the United States has taken for 54 years," he said on the show. But he acknowledged that saying there should be an "evenhanded policy" toward the Israelis and the Palestinians may have been a poor choice of words.

"I have since learned that is a sensitive word to use in certain communities," he said. "So perhaps I could have used a different euphemism. But the fact of the matter is, at the negotiating table, we have to have the trust of both sides."


:wtf:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2003/09/10/national2031EDT0898.DTL

[mmm]

1. any honest arbiter will punish israel

if this is his intention, I support him wildly

[joeybee12]

2. F**k Pelosi!

She's much better than Gephardt, but come on, is she taking her marching orders from the DLC as well? She and all those other losers in the House and Senate, who have laid down for Dumbo these past two and a half years, should get their s**t together before ganging up on their own.

[StandWatie]

3. no, from AIPAC

There is a reason Nancy pulls in the big bucks.

[Resistance]

100. this article is a bit old

but worth revisiting I think, with all the new controversy over Dean's suggestion that the US should be evenhanded towards Israel and Palestine:


http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16280

Dean Not Progressive on Mideast

True, Dean is one of the Democratic presidential hopefuls who opposed the invasion of Iraq (along with Ohio Rep. Dennis Kucinich, conservative Sen. Bob Graham, former Illinois Sen. Carol Moseley Braun, and Rev. Al Sharpton), but he is closer to a hawk when it comes to Israel/Palestine and U.S. policy toward Iran.

In a major foreign policy speech earlier this year, Dean, while calling for an end to Palestinian violence, did not call for an end to Israeli violence, let alone an end to the illegal Israeli occupation.

And when asked whether his views are closer to the dovish Americans for Peace Now (APN) or the right-wing, Sharon-supporting American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), he stated unequivocally in an interview with the Jewish weekly The Forward, "My view is closer to AIPAC's view."

Last December, Dean told the Jerusalem Post that he unequivocally supported $8 billion in U.S. loan guarantees for Israel. "I believe that by providing Israel with the loan guarantees ... the US will be advancing its own interest," he said. His unconditional support for the loan package, in addition to $4 billion in outright grants, went further than even some of the most pro-Israel elements in the Bush administration, like Paul Wolfowitz, who wanted to at least include some vague restrictions like pushing Israel to curtail new settlements and accept a timetable to establish a Palestinian state.

(snipped the rest)

[LastDemInIdaho]

30. Israel should not be punished any more than they have been

Israel has suffered enough with all their neighbors wanting them removed from the middle east. Their children are being slaughtered by suicidal maniacs and they get nothing but crap for fighting back.

No, Israel should not be punished. They have had way too much punishment and I will not support any candidate that tries to pile on more.

[Walt Starr]

36. Suicide bombings did not start for more than a decade

after illegal settelments went into occupied lands.

[Arun29]

37. Really LastDem?

SO LastDem, you support the Israel's illegal occupation, by every internationla law there is, of a foreign territory that has gone on for over 36 years? You support the FACT that despite the suicide bombings, Israel has killed 3 times as many Palestinians during the Intifada than Israeli's have died. The FACT that more innocent Palestinians have died at the hand of Israel than Israeli's at the hand of Palestinians?

Educate yourself my friend, I know it must be tough to do in Idaho, but this is the CHEIF reason the Arab world hates us.

[rini]

157. lies

I suggest you read history from an unbiased source. I know it won't happen as why should facts interfere with opinion.

[Aidoneus]

159. such as?

.

[BeFree]

41. some punishment

10 BILLION dollars a year in nasty punishment. The table has been tilted so long it's beginning to look like a slide. Time to play even-handed in the Middle East. Dean is smart enough to realize that, let's hope he's given a chance to set things straight.

[RaRa]

51. No suicide bombings for 2 years

that's something I heard on NPR ealier this year. There were no bombings for 2 years sometime in the mid-late 90s (sorry, I can't recall specifics). So, the Palestinians clearly changed their behavior. Did Israel? No. Settlements continued to be built. International laws continued to be violated against the Palestinians. So, while I don't condone any of the violence, why are Isreal's supporters so incensed or surprised? Sorry, I feel for the individuals who suffer, but the country as a whole can fuck itself (oops, it already is!)

[UnapologeticLiberal]

54. 1 year

For the first year of Barak's term as prime minister. But this latest spate of violence began when Barak was in office, before Sharon became prime minister, and after Barak had offered Arafat mroe than any Israeli prime minister had ever offered the Palestinians and Arafat walked away from it.

[SOS]

93. Incorrect

There were no suicide bombings between October 29, 1998 and September 27, 2000. (Source: Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs).
The shooting of 49 Palestinians in September 2000 was the catalyst for the renewal. (See New York Times Intifada timeline).
Camp David broke down in December 1999, 10 months before the war started.

[Julien Sorel]

97. What offer was that, pray tell?

I'm unfamiliar with it, although I see it talked about endlessly here.

[tinnypriv]

109. Whatever anyone says

Ask for a map.

Then listen to the crickets chirping.

[Tinoire]

108. Arafat did NOT walk away- the Israelis did!

It was the Israeli team that walked out after having been promised a better deal by Bush's people. This has been confirmed by 2 of Clinton's aids and is a well-known fact everywhere but in America where there is too much ZOA/AIPAC-directed spin about this issue.

Anger at peace talks 'meddling'

Political scandal in US as Bush advisers tell Israelis to be ready to walk out of Camp David negotiations

Israel and the Middle East: special report

Julian Borger in Washington
Thursday July 13, 2000
The Guardian

(Excerpt)

The Middle East peace talks at Camp David became the subject of a political scandal in the US last night when reports emerged that one of George W Bush's foreign policy advisers had warned the Israeli delegation to be prepared to walk out of negotiations.
Richard Perle, a veteran cold war warrior and former assistant secretary of state, urged the Israeli prime minister, Ehud Barak, not to agree to any settlement which left the future status of Jerusalem unresolved, according to the New York Post website.

The website quoted a message received by Mr Barak yesterday from two of his emissaries, Yoram Ben-Ze'ev and Yossi Alpher. The two men said Mr Perle "asked us to send a clear message" to Mr Barak that it would be a "catastrophe" if the Jerusalem question was not dealt with, and urged him "to walk away" from the Camp David negotiations if faced with that outcome.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,342857,00.html
----

(Excerpt)
In 2000, when Prime Minister Ehud Barak, PLO Chairman Yasser Arafat and President Clinton were meeting at Camp David, Perle made news when he warned Barak not to let Vice President Al Gore become involved in the peace summit, for fear it would boost Gore's election prospects. He also told Barak to "walk away" from a peace plan if it left the thorny issue of a divided Jerusalem unresolved. Working as an advisor to candidate Bush, Perle warned Barak he would urge the Texas governor to condemn any peace plan that gave the PLO a foothold in Jerusalem.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2002/09/05/perle/index1.html


----
Richard Perle Sabotaged Mideast Peace Talks in July 2000
11-Mar-03
Richard Perle
In July 2000, Richard Perle contacted the Israeli government and deliberately tried to sabotage President Clinton's Mideast Peace talks at Camp David, when Clinton worked around the clock with Ehud Barak and Yassir Arafat to find a formula for peace. Barak's people reported the matter to Clinton, and Bush was forced to publicly disavow the efforts on his behalf to sabotage negotiations. Bush said he 'disagreed' with what Perle did, as if his campaign had not directed and/or approved of it. At the time, there were demands that Perle be prosecuted for illegally interfering with American foreign policy. Naturally, Bush's new AG John Ashcroft scrubbed the case.
http://www.democrats.com/preview.cfm?term=Richard%20Perle

And this interesting tidbit from an old DU thread that came up during my google: http://www.democraticunderground.com/duforum/DCForumID30/7925.html

So what was to be the crowning foreign policy achievement of the Clinton administration collapsed under the weight of obstructionists from both sides of the conflict, including Bush supporters undercutting America's commander in chief.

Richard Perle wasn't just urging then Prime Minister Barak to hold off for Bush. Perle must have known that an Ariel Sharon tenure in the Israeli PM's office wasn't far off. Sharon's Likud party is the spiritual, fundamentalist and politically bankrupt equivalent of the Bush Cartel Republican Party. They even agree on the same style of crony capitalism offered under the bait and switch euphemism of opening up a "free market economy" (i.e., reward my campaign contributors with contracts and screw everyone else). The Likud and the Bush Cartel are two birds of the same feather. Actually, Benjamin Netanyahu, who was educated in the U.S. and used to be a regular television pundit on American news shows, is the favored Israeli politician of the American extremist right (AKA, the Republican Party), but Sharon will do.

http://www.buzzflash.com/buzzscripts/buzz.dll/quote

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LastDemInIdaho]

81. Lighten up guy

It's my opinion and I'm allowed to speak it without attacking anyone personally.

[Resistance]

95. actually

this board doesn't allow conservatives.

Sorry.

[LastDemInIdaho]

99. That's good to know

Are you implying that my (and many other Dems) support and defense of Israel makes us a "conservative"? If that's what you believe then you just wrote off about half of democratic voters.

[Resistance]

102. I assumed you were a conservative

given your uneducated and misinformed views (it's usually that way with conservatives), but I am also aware that many democrats do turn grotesquely right-wing in their blind support for Israeli aggression.

It is an issue that does not sit well with me.

[rini]

158. an ignoramous' approach to history and politics

is always enlightening.

[Andromeda]

136. I support Israel ...

so let me set you straight. Most mainstream Democrats, including myself, do support Israel and have the same views as Howard Dean does. Democrats have some conservatives but the majority are moderate, center-left and center-right. Most people are mixed---liberal to centrist on social issues, for instance, and sometimes a little more conservative on fiscal matters. You just can't put people in a box and put the same label on all because they have a shared belief in one area.

Do you call all of them conservatives because they don't align with your leftist views? Most people want a fair solution to the I/P problem and want a leader who will continue President Clinton's policies. Clinton put his heart and soul into the ME talks and Bush didn't continue negotiations---instead he ignored the ME for the first eighteen months of his presidency. This just made matters worse.

Some people with extreme left-wing beliefs don't think the state of Israel has the right to exist. I think these people are a minority, fortunately. They condone suicide bombers by calling them "freedom fighters" and they call the IDF "terrorists." Some extremists, maybe some not so extreme, favor a one-state solution which would essentially be the end of Israel and the Jews since they are vastly outnumbered by the Arab Palestinians. That wouldn't work for obvious reasons.

[Tinoire]

111. Yes you are and welcome to DU

I am sorry that there is so much tension around this issue. This is a result of us having swept so much dirt under the carpet that now the floor is threatening to cave in. Activists like me, warned, SCREAMED about this for three years but people plugged their ears and refused to believe how serious this issue was for us. I didn't wake up at 4 in the morning to drive 5 hours to anti-globalization/Justice for Palestine demonstrations to now have it be a non-issue or superficial issue that could be addressed with mere rhetoric.

It is unfortunate that people have been prevented from talking about it honestly to find a common point and that it's coming to a head at election time. Please feel free to speak up honestly and to discuss this. We need more of that around here and less propaganda or fact-spinning.

To be blunt, it took me a 2 years to accept that many US Jews could sincerely be liberal and progressive in everything except when it came to Israel. My sad conclusion is that people have been so traumatized, understandably so, by the Holocaust that it is easy for the Hawks to start screaming "survival of our race/religion" to get everyone all excited. I do not fault the trauma- I fault the continued exploitation of that trauma and I am very sorry it ever happened, if that means anything, but the Palestinians shouldn't be penalized for it. I've been happy to see more open discussion about this, pushed by US and Israeli groups such as Jews for Peace, Gush Shalom and ISM which is half-staffed by American Jews like Adam Shapiro.

Naomi Klein had an excellent article about this recently:

Sharon's best weapon

Anti-semitism sustains Israel's brutal leader - the fight against it must be reclaimed

Naomi Klein
Thursday April 25, 2002
The Guardian

For Ariel Sharon, it is the fear of anti-semitism, both real and imagined, that is the weapon. Mr Sharon likes to say that he stands up to terrorists to show he is not afraid. In fact, his policies are driven by fear. His great talent is that he fully understands the depths of Jewish fear of another Holocaust. He knows how to draw parallels between Jewish anxieties about anti-semitism and American fears of terrorism, and he is an expert at harnessing all of it for his political ends.

The primary and familiar fear that Sharon draws on, the one that allows him to disguise all aggressive actions as defensive ones, is the fear that Israel's neighbours want to drive the Jews into the sea. The secondary fear Sharon manipulates is the fear among Jews in the diaspora that they will eventually be driven to seek a safe haven in Israel. This leads millions of Jews around the world, many of them sickened by Israeli aggression, to shut up and send their cheques, a down-payment on future sanctuary.

The equation is simple: the more fearful Jews are, the more powerful Sharon is. Elected on a platform of "peace through security", Sharon's administration could barely hide its delight at Le Pen's ascendancy, immediately calling on French Jews to pack their bags and come to the promised land. For Sharon, Jewish fear is a guarantee that his power will go unchecked, granting him the impunity needed to do the unthinkable: send troops into the Palestinian Authority's education ministry to steal and destroy records, bury children alive in their homes, block ambulances from getting to the dying, sabotage all international attempts to get at the truth of what happened in Jenin.

<snip>

Jews outside Israel now find themselves in a tightening vice: the actions of the country that was supposed to ensure their future safety are making them less safe right now. Sharon is deliberately erasing distinctions between the terms "Jew" and "Israeli", claiming he is fighting not for Israeli territory but for the survival of the Jewish people. When anti-semitism rises at least partly as a result of his actions, it is Sharon who is positioned once again to collect the political dividends. It works. Most Jews are so frightened that they are now willing to do anything to defend Israeli policies.

<snip>

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,690226,00.html


Anyway, peace, shalom, welcome to DU :toast: and I am sorry that this is your introduction.

[Eloriel]

104. Oh, I dunno

Rachel Corrie's death had a huge impact on me. Esp. because I ALSO LEARNED that Israel is bulldozing houses!! That's how Corrie died, while Israel was bulldozing houses. I can't get past that. The death, with no official apology, was quite bad enough, thank you. But bulldozing houses?

No, unqualified support for Israel-under-Sharon is out of the question for me. I'm thrilled to see Dean's getting this right too. Yeah, we'll stay friends and allies with Israel -- but there needs to be some parity and even-handedness at least in negotiations if we're to make any progress over there. And bulldozing houses isn't going to take us in the direction of progress. I can guarantee that.

Eloriel

[rman]

123. even handed policy = punishment?

can you explain that.

i guess asking Israel to repay the loans would be punishment as well?

[leesa]

127. What crap! Israel has been busting Arab balls since their inception

Israel slaughters innocent children. Where have you been? Or do the blinders never come off? Terrorism is the natural result of the Israeli governmental policies of abuse.

[LastDemInIdaho]

129. Terrorism is the natural result

With sentiments like that one could argue that OKC was the natural result of governmental abuse at Waco. I'm not buying it.

[rini]

154. I agree

n/t

[Arun29]

33. This Is A Fight Dean Can Win

Dean knows exactly what he is doing:

1) He is rallying the base, look at this thread!

2) Is there another candidate in the country who has come out and said, essentailly, "let's stop Israel from hijacking our security"? For those that recognize the severe problem the Israeli lobby poses to our country, Dean is the man, and he will be bringing more people into the process like he promised to do with this stance.

3) There are over 3 million Arabs in the US. They have pledged to register at least 1 million voters for 2004. There are less than 6 million Jews, most with strong Dem roots. My take is whatever right wing leaning, Sharon loving Jews he loses, he will MORE than make up for with Arab Americans that got duped and voted for Mr. Shrub last time.

4) We could possibly finally have peace in the middle east and take away Bin Laden's argument to average Arabs. War on Terror over.

Finally, in relation to Arabs, I must say the westernized Lebanese, Morrocan, and Irani women I met in Montreal were unbelievably smokin'!

[LastDemInIdaho]

57. Lebanese, Morrocan, and Irani women I met in Montreal were smokin'!

I wonder what would happen if they tried that in their homeland?

[Arun29]

65. What's Your Point?

What is your point lastdem? Gee, you know, in Montreal, they actually go home to their real HOMES, brothers and sisters, mothers and father's, they are Muslim . . . . Is your point that they get brutalized at home? Well, I have news for you, they don't. The muslims in Montreal mix very well with the society and seeing these women bellydance??? Whoaaa, I can;t even describe it, the sexiest thing I ever saw was an Irani girl in Montreal bellydancing to arabic music (which is really good btw, can you get it in Idaho?), it was like a dream . . . .

You really wanna take me on?

For sure, I know in Lebanon Hezbollah will beat you up for such things. It is not the standard clothing in the arab world to wear painted on jeans yes. But what does that prove lastdem? That they are backwards because the girls don't wear painted on jeans? Is the fact that some girls here in the US wear painted on jeans and have fake boobs evidence of a superior culture to you? What exatcly is your point?

[LastDemInIdaho]

91. You tell me what my point is

You seem to have allready attributed to me enough assumptions to be considered a seer. So why don't you finish your missive and perscribe what it really is that I was trying to say.

But everything is still the same
Passing the time passing the blame
We carry on in the same old way
We'll find out we left it too late one day
to say what we meant to say

[Tinoire]

113. Whew... Nice post!

A big hearty :toast: and welcome to DU Arun!

[Arun29]

68. Oh!

I forgot to mention, you can't dispute any of the substance of my post. You have to rely on sophistry (standard repuke tactic, maybe you should join the freepers) and take issue with the only thing that was light-hearted in my post, twisting the argument to something tangential of moot value: how hot the arab girls are in Montreal. And yes, they are hot. Do you have a problem with that?

Me smells a racist. Oh, and he's from Idaho, what a surprise . . .

[dusty64]

69. Agree, once again

our Democratic "leaders" are wrong. Sometimes wonder whose country they are serving and taking their orders from?

[Tinoire]

112. Yes there is and that candidate, from the start, has been Kucinich

Kucinich's stance on the Middle East is actually the best one

And he has never waffled. This is why he is the only candidate who has been interviewed and supported by Tikkun since the beginning and the main candidate being pushed by Jews for Peace; they will only list 3 on their web-site (Kucinich, Sharpton and Mosely-Braun): http://www.positiveuniverse.org/Archives2003May/JewsforPeaceandJusticeint.html

This is yet another reason he's been endorsed most of the peace groups and recieved strong supporting statements from people like Chomsky.

Kucinich has gone so far as to address Water Rights which are an important and overlooked aspect at the root of the I/P conflict.

Water as a Human Right

Water as a Human Right: Ten Principles

1. All water shall be considered to be forever in the public domain.

2. It shall be the duty of each nation to provide accessible, affordable drinking water to its peoples.

3. There shall be public ownership of drinking water systems, subject to municipal control.

4. Wealthy nations shall provide poor nations with the means to obtain water for survival.

5. Water shall be protected from commodification and exempted from all trade agreements.

6. Water privatization shall not be a condition of debt restructuring, loan renewal or loan forgiveness.

7. Governments shall use their powers to prevent private aggregation of water rights.

8. Water shall be conserved through sustainable agriculture and encouraging plant-based diets.

9. Water resources shall be protected from pollution.

10. Our children should be educated about the essential nature of water for maintaining life.

www.kucinich.us/issues/issue_water.htm
www.muhajabah.com/muslims4kucinich/archives/006176.php


-----------------------------

This is the statement Kucinich released when he abstained from voting on the Tom Delay's "solidarity with Israel legislation" which was nothing more than a cheer-leading resolution for Sharon last year.(You can read that resolution and see the votes here:
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/US-Israel/sres247.html)

For Immediate Release

May 2, 2002



Statement of Congressman Dennis Kucinich
On H.R. 392

I declare my support for the State of Israel and for the security of the Israeli people. I also declare my support for a Palestinian state and for the security of the Palestinian people. So I will vote present today because I believe the security of Israel requires the security of the Palestinians.

I will vote present because I believe the United States can do better through honest brokering, and a principled commitment to peaceful coexistence. Today we are missing an opportunity to lead people of the Middle East toward a secure and stable future together.

This resolution equates Israel's dilemma, which is the outcome of the Palestinian's struggle for self-determination with the United States' campaign against the criminal organization, Al Queda. Unfortunately, our own policy is undefined, amorphous, without borders, without limits, and without congressional oversight. For this Congress to place the historic Israeli-Palestinian conflict into the context of the current fashion of US global policy pitches Israelis and Palestinians alike into a black hole of policy without purpose, and conflict without resolution.

The same humanity that requires us to acknowledge with profound concerns the pain and suffering of the people of Israel requires a similar expression for the pain and suffering of the Palestinians. When our brothers and sisters are fighting to the death, instead of declaring solidarity with one against the other, should we not declare solidarity with both for peace, so that both may live in security and freedom?

If we seek to require the Palestinians, who do not have their own state, to adhere to a higher standard of conduct, should we not also ask Israel, with over a half century experience with statehood, to adhere to the basic standard of conduct, including meeting the requirements of international law? ((Dean has NOT done this))

There is a role for Congress and the Administration in helping to bring a lasting peace in the Middle East, however, this resolution does not create that role. After today we will still need to determine a course of action to bring about peace. This course will require multilateral diplomacy, which strengthens cooperation among all countries in the region. It will require focused, unwavering attention. It will require sufficient financial resources. And it will require that our nation have the political will to bring about a true, a fair, and a sustainable resolution of the conflict.

When this Congress enters into the conflict and takes sides between Israel and Palestine we do not help to achieve peace, but the opposite. Similarly, the Administration should consider that when it conducts a war against terrorism without limits the principle of war is quickened everywhere in the world, including the Middle East. When it talks incessantly about invading Iraq, the tempo of war is picked up everywhere. If we truly want peace in the Middle East this resolution is counter productive. I will vote present because I do not believe that this resolution dignifies the role towards creating peace, which this Congress can and must fulfill.

http://www.house.gov/kucinich/press/pr-020502-israeli.htm

[loudnclear]

134. The Israeli position will be the defining position to watch...

The unabashed support of and for Israel...no matter if Israel is right or wrong is just sickening. One caller to Washington Journal on Tuesday hit all the major points about our interests and our support of Israel..basically his point were that there will be no peace in the ME as long as we are so biased in our position, favoring Israel; that why wouldn't it be expected that the Arabs want to be armed so as to defend themselves from a nation that really does have nuclear weapons and other weapons of mass destruction that they have actually used against their neighbors and have, unprovoked bombed a sovereign Arab nation; and that the US will never have peace as long as our government (all three brances) are in the grips of powerful lobbies for the Israeli-Zionist movement. I was quite frankly surprised that the caller was even able to get his points out without being cut off. Of course, his points were just ignored by the guests who could not challenge any of them.. It's a well-used tactic that when you can't argue the facts you merely change the subject...which was done in this case.

[wtmusic]

4. Come off it

How can anyone criticize and 'even-handed' policy?

[jos]

5. This makes my blood boil

AIPAC gests on the phone to Pelosi, and she dutifully responds. Why did I (we) want her as leader anyway? She hasn't done shit!

:mad:

[Julien Sorel]

6. Start the bonfire, crack the whip!

Remember, U.S. policy is already evenhanded between Israel and the Arab world. Even a hint to the contrary must be immediately crushed.

Dean, and I'm serious about this, might have sunk his campaign right here. This ought to be interesting, to see if Pelosi and the insiders are able to make this stick. Dean's my third choice, but he has my sympathy for the meatgrinder he's going up against. I think he was actually trying to be fair, and now he will get punished for it.

[Warren Stuart]

7. He's about to get McKinneyed

And he showed so much promise too. Pity.

[Cha]

9. We'll see about that.

[joeybee12]

10. Anybody got Pelosi's phone number handy?

How about a mass phone-in telling her and the other wimps in Congress to knock this shit off!

[StandWatie]

11. she's an ideologue

I mean she happens to rake in a bunch of money with her "supporting Israel" bullshit but it's her honest conviction, you couldn't blast her off the position with dynamite.

[Gloria]

55. Congressional Switchboard..1-800-648-3516 just ask for the office

you want...

[concord]

15. This is just the beginning

I'm sure he knows this and is prepared. The "Dems" that are coming at him are part of the problem. He sees the big picture. It's odd so many do not.

[Classical_Liberal]

52. He is too big to McKinney

and he has to many grass roots activists and contributers. Frankly after he said that I knew for sure, I was committing to Dean. This war on terrorism can never end if we don't stop the settlements.

[Flying_Pig]

105. Don't count on it...

The media, all of it, is V-E-R-Y AIPAC "friendly". I expect they'll start doing their best to shoot Dean down. This makes me sick, that AIPAC, Sharon, and Likud, can have so much influence on OUR fucking politics. It's treason godamnit, to put another country before your own, and betray the principals of your own nation in the process!! They mess with Dean, and Israel will lose the support of tens of millions in this country!!

[Andromeda]

137. Don't count him out yet.

.

[Cha]

8. Okay! We'll see if Dean can bounce back from the pelosi and

crew smear. I'll be paying strict attention.

[Malikshah]

13. Now is the time for those who support Democracy

To make a stand for the process.

A front runner is about to be pilloried for holding an opinion.

Other threads have folks equating Dean's statements on even-handed as = to Fox's fair and balanced, and using hypothetical situations of the US treating al-Qa'ida in an even-handed way after 9/11....

This sort of logic is disgusting.

Yes--I know this post might break all the rules of posting--but guess what. This sort of logic hurts every last one of us in the country, not to say the Israelis and the Palestinians.

Folks-- Think of what you are saying please.

[Cha]

14. I don't think you're "breaking" any rules of posting, Malikshah

and I wholeheartedly agree with your post. Thanks for posting it.

I knew I didn't like what pelosi and her crew are doing but you articulated it very well!

[searchingforlight]

26. Evenhanded is exactly what we should be.

We must not think in black and white. That is why we are getting rid of Chimpy.

[madfloridian]

135. Thoughtful post. None of the candidates should be treated this way.

Thanks for the good post.

[Julien Sorel]

35. It's not just the smear, it's the $$.

There are a lot of wealthy Jewish Dems, and they will not donate to a candidate who doesn't get the AIPAC seal of approval for servility. Someone else mentioned McKinney as an example of what happens to people who cross the AIPAC crowd, and that's something close.

Think of it this way: I'm more and more certain Clark will run, and that he will be a potent challenge to Dean. A well-funded Clark would even be stronger.

In the general election, Dems are likely to need every resource to win, and Jews are a powerful component of the Democratic machine -- they vote, they are much wealthier than the average American, and are politically sophisticated and passionate. If they are turned off to a candidate, if their support is only lukewarm, it's going to make a tough fight almost impossible to win. Knowledgeable people know this, and so they are going to be less likely to support Dean for practical reasons, not ideological ones.

This could blow over. Dean's comment wasn't bad, and his wife might give him cover. But it hurts. As a Clark guy, I hope Dean weathers the storm. This kind of shit sickens me -- American politics should be decided by American issues, not Israeli issues.

[Classical_Liberal]

39. very few of these people are dems

unless you still include Perle and Wolfowitz.

[Julien Sorel]

53. Who are 'these people'?

Perle is a Democrat? Wolfowitz is a Democrat? They used to be, not any longer.

I'm talking about people like Steven Grossman, ex-chair of AIPAC and the DNC, and a wealthy person who has donated hundreds of thousands to the Democrats over the years. People like that are powerful, and also influence many others who are also wealthy and powerful. They represent the backbone of the Democrats, just as the religious people and corporations represent the backbone of the Republicans.

[Classical_Liberal]

56. Grossman works for Dean, so he obviously doesn't mind Dean's comments

I don't miss Perle and Wolfowitz, they got us into the dumb war. "These people" are "The wealthy Jewish Dems" you aluded to, "who won't contribute without Aipacs seal of approval." Aipac has moved to the right since the retirement of Grossman and they now want Israel to continue the policy of settlements under Arial Sharon. His political allies in America, like Perle and Wolfowtitz deliberately sabotaged Clinton's peace efforts, destroying the career of moderate Ehud Barak, which helped to kick off the intafada, that lead to Sharon's disasterous ascendency. That is the only reason why otherwise Democratic Jews would abandon Dean, and polling indicates them a extreme minorty in the Jewish community and mostly republican voters since Reagan. Grossman doesn't want the settlements to continue. When he was President of Aipac, Aipac endorced Oslo and Clinton's peace plan.

[Julien Sorel]

79. AIPAC, as I just demonstrated with Grossman,

aren't just Republicans. I would be surprised, in fact, if a majority of AIPAC wasn't Democratic (2 of the 3 most recent presidents of AIPAC were Dems; Grossman would make it 3/4). The issue of Israel transcends party and other ideology for many Jews.

Grossman, like all the other heads of AIPAC, dances to whatever tune Israel calls. He was put into power at the behest of Rabin, who wanted someone nominally, anyway, not tied at the apron to Israel; he danced to Rabin's tune, and when he left, the people who replaced him danced to the tune of whoever was playing in Israel.

The people who control the money in AIPAC (and it is a considerable amount), are all hard liners on the subject of Israel. Grossman might be a relative dove (he was something of a poor example on my part), but Dean is going to have to deal with the people in charge now.

Whatever polling suggests, the bottom line is that AIPAC, and its lesser-known sister organization, the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations, are the dominant voices with regards to U.S. - Israeli issues. If Dean has a problem with those two hawkish organizations, he will have a problem with American Jewry.

[Classical_Liberal]

84. Grossman works for Dean though, how come he hasn't said anything.

If all Jews in Aipac are in lockstep. I think the leadership of Aipac is mostly Conservative, and has become more Conservative since he left. You don't have to be a jew to be in Aipac and in the last few years many Christian Zionists in the religious right have joined. Their conservative trend is an empirical fact that is demonstrated by their strange rejection of a man who has Clinton's foriegn policy. This has happened in many Jewish orgs over the years, because Liberal Jews tend to be more involved in groups not specifically related Judaism. Thus many Jewish groups are more conservative than normal. Also wealthy Jews are more likely republican than non wealthy just as with non jews.

[Julien Sorel]

94. Of course Grossman's not going to say anything.

It would create, or widen, a rift, at the exact time when Dean's campaign is trying to avoid it. Grossman is largely outside the AIPAC power loop, anyway at this point. I used him as an example of the structure of the inside of the Democratic party -- the fact that he's served both as chairman of the DNC and president of AIPAC made him ideal for that.

I think the leadership of Aipac is mostly Conservative, and has become more Conservative since he left. You don't have to be a jew to be in Aipac and in the last few years many Christian Zionists in the religious right have joined. Their conservative trend is an empirical fact that is demonstrated by their strange rejection of a man who has Clinton's foriegn policy.

AIPAC = American Israel Public Affairs Committee. It is interested in one thing, and one thing only: U.S. relations with Israel. It is certainly 'conservative' in its approach to that issue, but it doesn't get involved with any others, either as a conservative or liberal organization. It views politics through the prism of Israel, period, which is why I dislike the organization. People send money, or not, to candidates as AIPAC tells them to; where the majority of Jewry poll on this issue or that is irrelevant.

Ulitmately, conservative, liberal or other, as I stated, AIPAC has huge influence on American political opinion regarding Israel. And AIPAC is not happy with Dean's statement.

Seventy to 80 percent of all members of Congress will go along with whatever they think AIPAC wants. -- William B Quandt

[Classical_Liberal]

101. wrong

The opinions of the majority of Jews and other Americans indicates Aipac doesnt' have that much effect. You insisted there were all these Jewish voters in locksteap with Aipac which isn't true, and the polling data supports this. There ability to get Congress to go along with their views is primarily a product of the myths you have been spreading that they controll Jewish votes more than they actually do. You may be spreading them unintentionally, but that myth is harmful. Aipac is a paper tiger.

Futhermore since most Jews don't want to support the Israelis governments settlement policies Aipac is presently Conservative.

[Julien Sorel]

116. What are you talking about, AIPAC doesn't have much affect?

Knock off the straw man -- no where did I say 'all these voters are in lock step with AIPAC.' Moreover, voters don't need to be in 'lock step' with AIPAC for it to be a powerful force in Jewish affairs. I could fill this message board with quotations from people and organizations saying just how powerful AIPAC is. I literally cannot believe someone would deign to discuss this issue, and then make such a colossally ignorant statement as, '...Aipac doesn't have that much effect.' AIPAC is about voters to a certain extent, true, but it's primarily about money, which point I've made throughout this little exchange.

There ability to get Congress to go along with their views is primarily a product of the myths you have been spreading that they controll Jewish votes more than they actually do. You may be spreading them unintentionally, but that myth is harmful. Aipac is a paper tiger.

This entire paragraph is opinion (yours) disguised as fact. But it's too ridiculous. 'Paper Tiger'? Cynthia McKinney. Earl Hilliard. 3 - 10 billion dollars a year in free money given to Israel. Unpopular pro-Israel veto after unpopular pro-Israel veto in the UNSC. That's some paper tiger. I'd hate to see a real one. But now that you've shown me the light, I'll try to stop spreading myths about the 'paper tiger' of AIPAC, which has been called by many, many people and institutions, one of the most powerful and intimidating lobbying bodies on Capitol Hill (some people think it is the most; I think it's the farm lobby). I'll fire up the fax machines and let the New York Times, for example, know that they've been propagating a myth, and they should stop it now, because AIPAC 'doesn't have that much affect.' You said so.

[fujiyama]

139. What Dean said

was definetely not wrong, but still I think he should have chosen a better way than saying 'not taking sides'. I think it's unfortunate the way others are demagauging him (as Lieberman and several other democrats have done). The main problem is, that by democrats making his statement a big deal, should Dean become the nominee, it could be disasterous.

This was the sort of issue Clinton handled well. He would make both sides believe he was with them, and in the end he did show he sincerely wanted peace in the region. Dean recently made another wording mistake (I hope it is anyways) by claiming Hamas members are "soldiers". I believe Dean would have a similar Middle East policy as Clinton, but Dean hasn't been very smart in his choice of words.

AIPAC is not an organization one in government wants to piss off. They are part of what you can call a "holy trinity" of lobbyist groups, the other two being the NRA, and the AARP (American Association of Retired Persons -- ever wonder why both parties pander so much to seniors?).

[Darranar]

140. Steven Grossman...

is a moderate. It's the current leadership of AIPAC that bothers me, not the past leadership.

[demdave]

12. I rememer someone saying they liked Dean because he

shoots from the hip in his speeches. Well, you do that a lot and occasonally you shoot yourself in the foot. If Dean s to have a chance he has to remember he will be President of the entire US, not just the DU.

[joeybee12]

16. Yeah, but Pelosi and other scum in Congress are shooting for his head!

Face it, what Pelosi, Berman, Kerry, Gephardt, Holy Joe et al DO NOT realize is that there is something fundamentally wrong with what is going on in Washington right now, and those in Congress right now don't get it. You know, you can bitch all you want about Dumbo, but it's the Dumb-o-crats who have bent over for him that helped create this mess--and I go back to the 2000 election when you didn't hear a peep out of the Dumb-o-crats in Congress about the obvious theft.

Well, I personally don't like being a member of the minority party, even if Pelosi and others don't seem to care as long as they get their money. Fuck her, and fuck all of them! Keep trashing Dean because he upsets your comfy little world--I'm writing another check to him tonight!

[Cha]

18. Thank you, joeybee! WEll Said!

[joeybee12]

22. Thank you zidzi!

[demdave]

21. I have never trashed Dean. Do a search and find out.

I was smply commenting on the fact that people who talk straight and off the cuff in a political arena often et themselves in trouble. Sometimes they backtrackor apologize. Other times they bury themselves. These are the facts. It has very little to do wth Dean.

If you really don't like being a member of the minority party then you will realize that my point is true. You need to get elected first. To boldly stand in the face of the electorate and oppose them is to be a man of supreme principle that watches the presdent on the evening news.

[joeybee12]

29. Hey Dem Dave!

I never said you trashed Dean.

I'm saying that the idiots in Congress are. They are making a non-issue into an issue, and doing their best to hand Dumbo the White House in 2004.

Why can't Dumb-o-crats (and I mean those who have made politics their career) get over their fucking egos for once and simply unite against the oposition, instead of making other Dems like Dean--who is their best fucking chance in 2004--their enemy. We can also thank her for abandoning Davis in California--nice way to let the Nazis subvert democracy, Ms. Pelosi!

[demdave]

32. No problem.....no anger. I was just trying to clear up my position

it's coo

[sandnsea]

42. Dumb-o-crats?

And you think anybody else is supposed to respect what you say????

Dean screwed up. In more ways then just using the word even-handed. I've pointed out before that just last week everybody was freaked out because of his support of Israel and the wall. He has got to get a clear message and understand what words mean when he says them. Like it or not, the President of the United States is the most powerful figure in the world. And we can't have a man who utters a phrase and creates an international incident. I am glad he apologized and understands what he said was a mistake, but Deanies have got to stop taking constructive criticism as bashing. It's not. Dean has to get up to speed.

[Cha]

47. They Are "Dumbocrats".... I stand behind that epitaph!

and joey explained why, too!

[Arun29]

45. Lieberman Would Be Awful For The War on Terror

And this will bring peace to the middle east, help our war on terror?From The Lieberman website:

Lieberman has been a national leader in fostering ties between the US and Israel. He believes that supporting our ally is integral to US national security interests.

Putting Pressure on the Palestinians. Joe Lieberman believes that Yasser Arafat is no longer a credible partner for peace. He has called for Arafat's removal and his replacement with leadership willing to stop terrorism, to recognize the right of a Jewish state of Israel to exist in security, and to build a democratic Palestinian state. For more than a Decade, Lieberman has led efforts to pressure the Palestinians to follow this course. In 1989, he cosponsored the PLO Commitments Compliance Act that called for the PLO to end its call for the destruction of Israel and to abandon terror, and has consistently urged Democratic and Republican presidents alike to pressure the Palestinians to renounce terrorism before negotiating with them.

Rallying Support for Israel. Joe Lieberman has rallied bipartisan support for Israel during his 15 years in the United States Senate. He has consistently supported increased foreign aid to our ally, including Israel's recent request for $12 billion in new aid, and opposed efforts to cut this wise investment in security. More than that, Lieberman has led his colleagues in offering support for Israel during difficult times. In the spring of 2002 when Israel launched Operation Defensive Shield to root out Palestinian terrorists, President Bush insisted that Israel withdraw "without delay." Joe Lieberman, in contrast, led the Senate in passing a resolution expressing solidarity with Israel.

Fighting to Move the American Embassy to Jerusalem. Joe Lieberman has led the fight to move America's embassy in Israel to that country's indisputable capital, Jerusalem. In 1995, he was the prime co-sponsor of the Jerusalem Embassy Relocation Act, and in 1999, he led his colleagues in taking the Clinton Administration to task for not moving the embassy to Jerusalem.

[dusty64]

71. I agree, I am holding

these "leaders" as responsible as our regime for the mess we're in. After we boot the repukes next year they'd better look out cause it's desperately time to clean house.

[readmylips]

83. I second Joey...

Those congress Dems don't get it...they also gave a blank check to dumbass little man bushie...I am 300% for Dr. Dean.

Besides, Kerry plays gulf with the bushies. His wife plays gulf with dumbass Baba Bushie, and said that Mrs. dumbass bushie is her role model. The bushies introduced Kerry to his wife, Mrs. Heinz. What happened to the ex-Mrs Kerry?

Case closed: Kerry is the big bolony guy.

[Cha]

17. In this case I don't think Dean said anything wrong.,

[Rose Siding]

34. And some people can run around

and say "He shot himself in the foot!" when all he did was use a phrase- "even handed" without knowing some were sensitive to it.

*show of hands* How many other Dem candidates knew "even handed" was a verboten phrase? How many voters knew it? How many think some ideological Dems are making hay with a straw man?

What a crazy place this gets to be. It could be so positive and has been but sometimes I find I'm grateful to remember it is SO out of the mainstream.

[Julien Sorel]

46. This is one of the times when it's upside down.

This crap happens because mainstream America, alone in the entire developed world, sees Israel as the innocent party in the M.E., and the Arabs as the aggressors. As a result, it's really easy to smear a politician as anti-Israel, soft on terrorism, and so on.

[Classical_Liberal]

59. mainstream america my butt!

It is mostly from war hawks who have been thoroughly discredited in the past couple of months. Most Americans don't want us to facilitate Sharon's settlements.

[Cha]

48. I did Not know "evenhanded" was a "verbotten word"....Jeez!

I think I'll have some evenhanded discussions on DU!

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

115. He was stupid to use the word 'evenhanded'

He clearly should have said 'fair and balanced' instead. :eyes:

[Democat]

19. Dean made a tactical mistake

Regardless of whether you agree or disagree with him on this issue, there are certain things that successful national politicians generally don't say in public.

Is this one issue important enough to Dean to make it the focus of his entire campaign?

He needs to find a way to defuse this quickly.

[joeybee12]

23. Tactical Mistake???????

I don't agree, and even if I did--this is not the issue. It's those slackers in Congress who are doing their best to hand Dumbo re-election (I know, I know, he wasn't elected in 2002, but it's just easier to use that term). They need to fucking wake up and stop eating their own!

[Democat]

24. I don't disagree that Democrats shouldn't be attacking Democrats

But Dean is risking turning the focus of his campaign into a fight over the Israel/Palestine issue.

It's not worth it at this point. We need to win the White House.

[joeybee12]

31. It's not Dean who's to blame!

It was nothing even remotely close to being a controversial commment!

Pelosi and others are going for blood--they don't fucking care if the Dems win the White House, they just want to make sure their candidate gets the nomination and their cozy little world isn't upset.

[Democat]

38. I disagree

Dean's comments would be controversial if you were a strong supporter of Israel.

The media and the right wing will find anything to attack Dean on, but Pelosi probably has a real problem with the idea of a Democratic president who doesn't support Israelis over Palestinians.

This is a huge issue for many people. In fact, it's the deciding issue, for some voters.

This is not the time to turn the Dean campaign into an Israel/Palestine candidacy. We need to win in 2004.

[Classical_Liberal]

74. Why didn't she try and sabotage Clinton

for the exact same policy. This is just chickenshits like Pelosi responding to bluffs from voters who vote republican anyway, and thus should have absolutely zero leverage.

[demdave]

130. If Dean's policy is the exact same policy as Clinton's, why follow it?

It obviously didn't work. I saw no progress in the last 20 years in the ME. I have seen a lot of photo ops and hand shaking. I could paper a wall with only headlines stating "Peace in the Mid-east". The Clinton's hugged the Arafats and financed the Israeli's, and we now have the present problems.

From Carter to now, the problem has only grown. Why should I be glad Dean wants to rehash a policy that didn't work?

[StandWatie]

40. oh god..

Saying that the only way to negotiate peace is to be an impartial arbiter is picking an I/P fight?!

[LastDemInIdaho]

61. Most voters refuse to be impartial to terrorism

And most voters see the suicider bombers and not Israel as the terrorists. Blame it on the media, lack of understanding or whatever you want but just don't blame it on me.

[Classical_Liberal]

76. Strawman "Most voters don't see the Palestinians as suicide bombers though

. Most voters still think that Israel should get out of the settlements as well.

[piece sine]

78. As I way saying, before I got flamed.....

Dean really stepped in it earlier this week. Very hip Jewish Americans heard a very different thing in Dean's comments than the Vermont Lilywhites. And they did a double-take. Tried to give this crew fair warning. Dean's neck 'n neck with a reality check now!

[Classical_Liberal]

80. This is anecdotal and doesn't reflect polling data

of the attitudes of Jewish Democrats.

http://www.jewishsf.com/bk021129/us16.shtml
New poll: Jews not thrilled with Bush efforts in Mideast


WASHINGTON -- A majority of U.S. Jews rate President Bush's leadership on the Middle East as fair or poor, according to a new poll.

These results sharply contradict what has been perceived as strong support among American Jews for Bush's handling of the Middle East conflict.

The new study, funded jointly by Americans for Peace Now and the Arab American Institute, also found that large proportions of the Jewish and Arab communities in the United States would like the Bush administration to steer a middle course in the peace process. Some 45 percent of Jews and 66 percent of Arabs chose that option over policies that favor either Israel or the Palestinians. Only 5 percent of Jews surveyed rated Bush's handling of the Middle East as excellent, with 23 percent saying it was good, 38 percent calling it fair and 31 percent describing it as poor.

[Tinoire]

117. And this is, Hedda and Classical, is where I get totally confused

How do you square that away with

In a major foreign policy America-Israel Public Affairs Committee(AIPAC), he stated unequivocally in an interview with the Jewish weekly The Forward, "My view is closer to AIPAC's view."

ow with

"At one time the Peace Now view was important, but now Israel is under enormous pressure. We have to stop terrorism before peace negotiations," he said.

http://www.forward.com/issues/2002/02.11.22/news3.html

I frankly don't understand it! I don't understand how Tikkun and Jews for Peace are/have been promoting Kucinich for that very reason, among other reasons of course, and yet so many flocked to Dean. You can't even find a reference to Dean on the web-sites of Jews for Peace or of Tikkun- they're all Kucinich (JFP has Braun and Sharpton also). What am I missing here?

[cprise]

124. Maybe he was recalling a different AIPAC

I don't know, Tinoire.

His instincts on war certainly make him more qualified to hedge on this issue than most candidates. Iraq has suffered a large toll.

He's not as pacifist as Kucinich, but he has the capacity for fairness and he tends to walk his talk more than any politician I've seen.

[study_war_no_more]

133. I cannot answer this

but I have a poet writer freind in Israel who I am going to pass this to. By the way- Hajimamaste tomadachi-san- We are voting to strike October second here at the University of Minnesota.

[hedda_foil]

107. "Very hip Jewish Americans"????

I qualify. Most of my friends and family qualify? Do you?

Dean's position on Israel/Palestine is excellent. This insane parsing of "even handed" is bizarre to say the least. Yes, their are semi-paranoid Jews who get hysterical about the most innocuous wording. Thankfully they're not in the majority. And btw, I know a flock of extremely wealthy and sophisticated Jewish Dems who are early and active Dean supporters ... who would be appalled if he came across like Holy Joe on I/P issues.

Please speak for yourself.

[Classical_Liberal]

44. I am more supportive Dean than ever

Pelosi is the one who will have to defuse the situation when he is President! n/t!

[Cha]

49. Well, there you go!

:kick:

[DisgustedTX]

20. I'm not even a Dean supporter and I'm pissed. Israel's SURVIVAL??

Jebus f'in Christmas!

The same Israel that practically has the entire US arsenal of weaponry while the Palestinians strap things to themselves??

Yes. EVEN, FAIR treatment is the ONLY solution to the problem. F Pelosi, Holy Joe and the like.

[Arun29]

43. Disgusted TX Post

See, Dean will bring so many people into the process by standing up to Israel. They might control the media and have a powerful lobby but there are many americans that see what Israeli policy has done to our country's security. Look at Disgusted TX's post for an example.

Go Dean!

And for those that think he will lose all Jews support, you are very wrong. Jews have strong dem roots, most want peace and not a "final solution". Finally, they are smart. Look at me. An Indian American damn sick of the fact that all our jobs are going overseas.

[Cha]

50. WElcome to DU, Arun29!

:kick:

[Arun29]

75. Thanks Chiquita!!!

: )

[drewb]

25. Another Litmus test???

Pro Choice?
Pro Gun Control?
Pro Affirmative Action?
Pro Israel?

4 for 4 or you are not a democrat!

Oh my?

[phrenzy]

27. Please explain

Can somebody please explain to me how in the HELL saying we ought to be "Even handed" in a situation such as this is a BAD thing to say?!?!?!

Did he say, we have to be even handed with HAMAS???

Did he say we have to be even handed with TERRORISTS?

Or is "Palestine" suddenly synonymous with "TERRORIST"

This is fucking pathetic - I am sorry, but I am getting so tired of the hysterical and reactionary attitude toward ANYTHING or ANYONE that even remotely criticizes Israel or suggests that they might have done something wrong.

Pathetic. And, curious, did this statement truly offend Jewish people? If so, why?

[LastDemInIdaho]

64. Perception is everything

When voters see the people of Palestine dancing in the streets and handing out candy in celebration of American and Jewish deaths it becomes hard to seperate the terrorist from the people they live among.

Thems the facts.

[Classical_Liberal]

70. To bad for you most Americans don't see things that way

The majority of Americans and an even higher pecentage of Jews would like Israel out of the West Bank.

[Tinoire]

119. Last Dem in Idaho?

No wonder you're so confused... Please move or something and find some other Dems to hang out with!

Just curious, is English your first language?

[LastDemInIdaho]

126. I like it here

Most of the people I know have liberal values but their voting habits are tainted by historic patterns. I'm one of the rare ones who pull the donkey lever but keep the faith that I am working on bringing them around.

I don't know why you think I'm confused, I just call things as I see them throuh my eyes. Could you expand on that?

Yes, English is my language of birth and rearing. I never took any advanced writing, just public school teachings. Is my scribbling that bad?

Thanks for the tips.

[PartyPooper]

28. Did anyone besides me see and hear Dean's response on CNN today?

He basically said the same thing as reported in this article when interviewed by Wolf Blitzer.

And, I thought Dean handled himself splendidly with his explanation. (Wolf didn't get to make Dean look bad...like he'd hoped!)

Unfortunately, some in the Democratic party (and, the media!) are out to get Dr. Dean...and, they will use any tactic...and sieze any opportunity to do so. I say, screw them all!

GO DEAN!

:dem:

[madfloridian]

121. It was excellent.

That letter sent a message to the grassroots democratics.....butt out. I won't butt out.

[MoonRiver]

58. The US should be an "honest broker" in the Israeli - Palestinian conflict.

IMHO, this is what Dean was stating.

HELLO! :spank: Isn't that the same message Clinton, Bush I, Reagan, and all other presidents since the conflict began have been trying to convey???

After all, if we present a bias for one side or the other, like LIEberman would have US do, the other side will negotiate shit.

[w4rma]

60. Rep. Nadler says this is a "political" attack by "Gephardt supporters"

…
New York Rep. Jerrold Nadler, a Dean supporter who is Jewish, said he was comfortable with Dean's position, although Dean initially used some language that could concern some pro-Israelis. But Nadler said Dean's clarifications since then should have cleared that up.

"This is sent out by Gephardt supporters and it should be seen for what it is -- a political document trying to exploit his statement before he has a chance to clarify it," Nadler said.
…

[joeybee12]

66. Go Nadler!

He says EXACTLY what it is!

Pretty soon--if nitiwts like Pelosi and her incompetent group have their way--NO ONE will know what Dean said. All anyone will read in the newspapers is that he said something that the media will call "CONTROVERSIAL."

It's blurring the issue, and there's no way to have an honest debate on this issue if you have loser Pelosi and her minority minions trying to get Gephardt elected, and the truth be dammed!

[jiacinto]

62. Jewish voters are a major part of the Dem base

Running against them is like having the GOP run against the NRA.

No Democrat is going to run on a pro-Palestinian platform.

[Dr Fate]

63. Evenhanded = pro- Palestinian?

Dean is not my #1 pick, but any objective person, Jewish or otherwise should know that suggesting an even handed approach does not mean you are Pro one side or the other...

I suppose you are right that many people are interpreting the remark that way...

I believe in fairplay for both sides too- I hope that does not make me pro one side or the other...

edited for multiple content and grammar errors...

[Classical_Liberal]

67. How is he running against Jews

Explain. You piss your pants too easily actually. Most Jews polled want a peace settlement and want israel out of the west bank. Also his policy is identical to Clinton and Carter? Were they antijewish?

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

86. Why are you anti-Palestinian?

[Forkboy]

88. Thats ok...when Braun spoke to a muslim group

Carlos immediately claimed it was anti-Israel.Because we all know that all muslims are anti-Israel :eyes:

[wabeewoman]

73. Good Grief!!

1. Someone needs to be even handed with Israel. We have been so one-sided there will NEVER be peace in the Middle East or an end to terrorism until someone steps up and says what the world knows is true-the US is so biased toward Israel.
2. Pleezze! We are worried because Dean might be President and say a wrong coded word that most people don't know is code. As opposed to the current resident who has alienated all of our allies (well, probably except Israel)
3. The Jewish groups should recognize that a even handed approach that demands both sides seriously negotiate is the only way to stop the tit for tat endless killing.
4. I appreciate Dean has the wisdom and courage to say the truth.

[tinnypriv]

82. These so-called "pro-Israel" fucking Stalinists

Are absolutely repellent. :puke:

[Blitz]

141. "Pro-Israeli = Fucking Stalinists" and are "absolutely repellant"

Someone tell me how this post is acceptable to progressives. Someone explain to me how it happened that, on a board that is ostensibly filled with "progressive" people, this vile hatred, this disgusting, vomitous post was allowed to stand unchallenged? I am not directing this comment to the poster of this comment. I could care less what it thinks.

I am directing it to the rest of you. Pro-Israel, anti-Israel, somewhere in the middle, I don't care. How was this allowed to pass? How is this not hatred and bigotry and everything that liberals and any people of decency and conscience are supposed to stand against?

Mods? DUers? Somebody explain this to me.

[bemildred]

142. It appears to me you have misinterpreted Mr. Priv's meaning.

Perhaps that explains it.

[Blitz]

143. I've been up for a very long time

so maybe I'm just not getting the subtle meaning of his words. Why don't you explain it to me?

[bemildred]

144. Nope, not interested.

[The Magistrate]

145. Best, Indeed, To Leave The Dead In Their Graves, My Friend

By the seventh or eighth week, they grow a bit past ripe.

But as we have recently had an attempt at resurrecting isolated remarks from last August in a whollly irrelevant context, such "re-animator" efforts in an other direction are to be expected.

Every tit must have its tat, after all, or wherever would we be?

[bemildred]

146. Indeed Sir.

Let the dead rest.
It did not seem likely to add much to the conversation.

[GabysPoppy]

147. Sadly, sir

The tit for tat will now mean another call to the principal's office.

Both condemnations have the scent of a Danielle Steel novel. Should they turn this novel into a screen play, we have a number of Oscar candidates.

I wonder if Spielberg is available to direct?

[Blitz]

148. Sir, I was hardly trying to even old scores or to dredge up slurs

In point of fact, I have not exchanges so much as two posts with the author of the post in the past (if memory serves) and I was not aware of the comment until its author directed me to it in the course of a current thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=191099#191883

Hy horror at it (though, admittedly dulled by the relentless repetition of such sentiments) is fresh and honest and not in any manner calculated. However, my horror at the non-reaction of sensitive DU souls outstrips my disgust at the original comment, which is vulgar in the truest sense of the word, by a good measure.

[The Magistrate]

149. That Is Indeed A Damned Ugly Discussion Up In Breaking News, Sir

The level to which our "conspiracists" will stoop never ceases to amaze me.

My apologies for any aspersion: it is clear you are un-aware of a little dust-up underway down here. There is a note down in "Ask the Administrators" about it.

[Blitz]

151. To be truthful

I was peripherally aware of what I believe you are referring to. I can only give you my sincere assurance that one has nothing to do with the other.

[The Magistrate]

150. The Machine Hiccoughed

[bemildred]

160. I fear it is too late, Sir.

The golem walks again.

[Aidoneus]

155. what is off with tinnypriv's remark?

They'd have to stop resembling that remark before I'd see it as disgusting. On the side, a LGF-fan talks about vile hatred?--so at least you're not without a sense of irony.

[tinnypriv]

161. LOL

"It"

Nice touch! :thumbsup:

Seems everybody else got the meaning. For the slow amongst us:

I said: "pro-Israel" (note the LGF-Charles scare quotes!), not what you've attributed to me.

i.e. I do not believe unconditional support of Israel is pro-Israel. I define pro-Israel as in the interests of the people of Israel (note the lack of scare quotes in that sentence!)

I also said "fucking". This was for colour. Or color. Whatever. ;-)

I used the term "Stalinist" in the political sense. i.e. doctrinal enforcement of a Party Line (look it up sometime).

Then, I offered the opinion that such people are "absolutely repellant". Standard vitriol around here towards 'ol Bush man. Rightly of course, and I hate these fucks more than I hate Bush.

Now, if you've quite finished your ridiculous attempt to criticise, I'll bid you adieu. :hi:

p.s. No further correspondence will be entered into on this matter. Have a nice day.

[Starpass]

85. Another case of Howard not being able to cut it on the national stage

I don't care if his idea is good or not HE JUST NEVER KNOWS HOW TO SAY THINGS WITHOUT DRIVING OFF A PILE OF VOTERS!!! Maybe if he gets the nomination and manages to screw up enough sound bits, we won't have to worry about Bush having to fix the elections!!! He doesn't have the polish to know how he's stepping on sensitive political toes...and there is no excuse for that. He doesn't have the sensitivity to figure out how other congressmen would have to run for re-election in areas where Dean has done something to offend the constituents, etc. A sophomore in poly sci could out think him when it comes to being very careful what you say when on the national stage. grrrrrr....it's like the Dems version of Chimp. Keep quiet.

[Classical_Liberal]

87. If HE JUST NEVER KNOWS HOW TO SAY THINGS WITHOUT DRIVING OFF A PILE OF VOT

rs, why are his poll numbers higher than everyone else? Phoney outrage from the spinners of other candidates campaigns is hardly "a pile of voters!"

[Starpass]

89. My god, I forgot, that's right

Let's see they put Dean's name up against Bush and Dean was at 89% and Bush was -12%. 2/3 of the American people cannot even name one of our candidates. And in going through poll numbers on CNN the other day that had Bush way down (rah, rah), they said he soared above being paired with any of the Dem candidates, as they asked candidate by candidate. The only one who did well was our non-candidate--Hillary. You fail to understand that all this whoopla is a handful of people compared to the national scene who are being polled in a couple states for the primaries. There aren't a shit pile of Jewish voters in Iowa (born and raised there) and New Hampshire (my next door neighbor). This is what Howard faces on the big time stage and his little brigade of followers needs to expand into 51% of the American people or thereabouts.

[Classical_Liberal]

103. and since polling indicates Jewish voters to be

more antisettlement than non jews, who cares? His policy is the same as Clinton, and he'll get as many votes as Clinton did, unless of coarse you think Jews are dumb and won't remeber than Clinton tried to stop the settlements too. That attitude will be a real vote getter in the Jewish community.

[Forkboy]

92. I'm sure you're looking for positives

:eyes:

[dolstein]

90. Gee, I guess that makes Pelosi a Republican, right?

NT

[Forkboy]

114. nope

just a pain in the ass.

[IndianaGreen]

128. No, but Pelosi does support Dick Gephardt for President

The same Gephardt that was a "miserable failure" as Democratic House Leader.

[SOS]

96. One question unasked in this thread:

Are 50.1% of American voters going to base their vote on whether Dean advocates an even-handed approach in resolving the I/P conflict?
Most Americans are much more concerned about the failing job market and will cast their vote on that.
The danger here is that the Republican controlled mass media will smear Dean non-stop as Osama himself in an effort to keep their sock-puppet in power.

[Larkspur]

98. I guess I will write Nancy a letter and decrease my contribution to the

DCCC, and if she keeps that up, I'll stop contributing to the DCCC altogether.

Dean is right -- we have to be evenhanded in negotiating peace between Israel and the Palestinians.

[madfloridian]

122. I already did.

I am not so gung-ho Dean I can't see faults and warts. I felt for them to say that evenhandedness is not appropriate is just too much.
We donate frequently to the DCCC, and we are just about to stop.

[WheresWaldo]

106. I cant believe Deans comments generated ANY controversy...

Whats wrong with "EVEN HANDED"... by them reacting like this, I dont get what message Pelosi and others are trying to make. should we NOT be even handed? she'll hear from me tomorrow, and I suggest others at DU do the same.

I'll post in the politics and campaign forum advising others to do the same.

[Resistance]

110. face it

The Democrats are just as hawkish in their stance on Israel as Republicans are (if not more so in certain specifics). The difference with us is that we lie, mislead, and distort the issue, whereas the Republicans are pretty much openly racist and radically fundamentalist.

[StandWatie]

131. interesting parallels

You could change "Labour" with "Democrat" and "Likud" with "Republican" and you have perfectly described Israeli politics also.

[IndianaGreen]

118. Thank you Nancy, now go collect your AIPAC check

Is Lieberman endorsing keeping all the settlements in the West Bank and Gaza? That's the only rational explanation for Lieberman's extremist position on the I/P question, a position which I will point out has never been officially endorsed by any Israeli government, Labour or Likud! It is a position, however, that is advocated by the most extremist and racist elements among the settlers, including those that support the late hatemongering rabbi Meir Kahane.

Negotiations can only take place between equal parties at the peace table. There is no equality when it comes to Israel and Palestine. Israel is a nuclear power with a powerful military. Palestine is not even a state! Palestine is a fledging nation under brutal Israeli occupation, its people subjected to daily indignities and abuses the likes of which we have not seen since South Africa's apartheid.

The only way in which Palestine can sit at the peace table as an equal to Israel is by having a neutral third party, a facilitator, guarantee such a status to the Palestinians. The United States is such third party. From the Camp David accords, to Oslo, to the Roadmap for Peace, American Presidents have worked hard to bring the two parties in the I/P conflict to the peace table. It is a road full of pitfalls, twists and turns, and many failures. The tit-for-tat cycle of violence, intensified in the last few days by the bombing of civilians by both sides is just another bloody chapter in the history between Israelis and Palestinians.

The fact that Lieberman has chosen to demagogue the Middle East conflict in order to salvage his pathetic and losing campaign for President, is more evidence of his unfitness for higher office and how far Lieberman has strayed from the Democratic party.

Many of those that are trumpeting Mr. Lieberman's demagoguery of Dr. Dean's positions are neither liberal nor Democrats, and some are not even Jewish but Christian fundamentalists. We can expect to see them voting for Mr. Bush next year. We might even seen them joining Mr. Lieberman when he forms his "Democrats for Bush"!

[Tinoire]

120. Well said... Now can you please answer my post 117

There are only a few people I would trust with that question and you are one of them.

Thanks :)

[nolabels]

125. Tell them to go fight their own wars

were these also some of the same people that gave * the green light on Iraq?

I you don't like the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

[janx]

132. This makes me even happier that I donate and volunteer for Dean.

It's time for the people to put a collective foot down.

What sleaze!

[jsw_81]

138. Dean

Isn't his wife Jewish?

[rini]

152. this news is over 3 months old

[Resistance]

153. so what

[Blitz]

156. My apologies

I was unaware of post #82 until this very day, when its author steered me towards it. Thus, it is my fault entirely that I have resurrected this monstrosity just in time for Halloween.

[tinnypriv]

162. Yeah yeah yeah

I clicked your link, which was not directed to post #82.

Keep flailing wildly though, there's a good chap.

[Resistance]

163. oh my goodness

We wouldn't want to once again direct attention to the fact that Democrats don't have the guts to stand up to Israel's war crimes do we?

[GabysPoppy]

164. My goodness

We once again must remind you that you have you have NOT been asked to give the definition of who belongs in the Democrat party. Nor have you been asked to define the policies of the Democrat party.

I feel horrible that you are so uncomfortable with anything associated with Democrats. I truly hope you find yourself a comfortable place where your views will not be so uniformly dismissed. It must exist. Look, even Brittany Spears has fans so it can't be so hopeless a cause.

[Resistance]

165. Ah, I see

In other words, "we" Democrats will continue to support Israel slaughtering innocent people, murdering peace activists, and stealing other people's land, regardless of what people of conscience think.

:thumbsup:

[tinnypriv]

166. WTF?

You're admonishing Resistance with this nonsense, yet calling the Democratic Party the Democrat Party?

You do realise how stupid that sounds, right?