UN aid workers: Gaza on verge of disaster

[Englander]

By Akiva Eldar

United Nations aid organizations are warning that the Gaza Strip is on the verge of a humanitarian disaster due to a lack of money and food.

David Shearer, head of the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA), told Foreign Ministry officials that if there is no significant change in the situation, Gaza will face a humanitarian crisis as bad as the one in Kosovo.

A report by the UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) warns of a lack of basic food supplies due to the frequent closures of the Karni crossing that are preventing goods from reaching Gaza from Egypt. The report also said there has been a significant increase in the number of hungry people since financial aid has been halted.

World Bank statistics show that if there is no dramatic change, 75 percent of Palestinians will be below the poverty line within two years. The current rate is 56 percent, compared to 22 percent in 2000.


More at;
Haaretz

[DELUSIONAL]

1. Reads like warnings from the US Army about Indian Reservations

which went something like -- if they don't get food and blankets soon many will not last the winter.

Put people on a reservation and then starve them . . . . old old way of population control -- also called genocide.

[Englander]

2. Yeah, it does.

It's difficult sometimes to remember which century we're supposed to be in.
It feels like the 1860's all over again, only with laser-guided missiles.

[Phx_Dem]

5. comparing the Pals to NAs

not such a good idea. Although, maybe the Pals should open up some casinos, lots of money in that.

Maybe the UN needs to fund the relief effort in Gaza better.

[Englander]

7. Nonsense.

Maybe the GoI needs to end the closure of Gaza, & reopen the borders, & the Karni
crossing.

[Phx_Dem]

8. The courts are involved now

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x121203


So we will see what happens. Didn't Egypt close their border with Gaza as well?

[Englander]

9. Egypt doesn't control the Karni crossing, or Gaza's borders.

So, obviously, the actions of the GoI are of greater importance as regards ending
this man-made disaster in Gaza. The Karni crossing is the viable export/import
terminal, obviously re-opening that would end this disaster, as it has the greater
capacity for aid, trade, &tc.

[pelsar]

10. egypt DOES control the border....

look at a map.....all of southern gaza borders on egypt...not an israeli to be found....a border control point with a port capable of handling fresh vegis just 20 min south of gaza.....

[Englander]

33. Isreal *DOES* control Karni. n/t

[barb162]

42. So what's the problem with using Rafah?

[Englander]

50. What's the problem with using Karni? n/t

[King Mongo]

57. Given the hostilities, Karni shouldn't be used at all...

... but until a reasoble alternative is created, Karni must be used since closing it causes innocent civilians to suffer, and we are supposed to be against terrorism.

[Englander]

68. Well, we are where we are.

Namely, that the main crossing into/out of Gaza is Karni, so it has to be used.

[King Mongo]

70. Yes, Karni must be used until it can be closed

by creating alternatives.

[Behind the Aegis]

49. As they should...it is their border. n/t

[cali]

27. OK, I'm really puzzled

Egypt does control a border with Gaza. Why can't trade and aid flow across that border?

[Englander]

31. Well, I can't help that.

It could, but at a lesser capacity than through Karni. Why is there a reticence to
see that point, which is that the primary export/import terminal is Karni, the viable
trade terminal is Karni, the primary gateway to the World for Gaza is Karni, the only
existing crossing for the export and import of goods serving Gaza’s 1.4 million people,
is Karni. The question is, why does the GoI insist on repeatedly closing the Karni
crossing, which is a lifeline for Palestinians in Gaza?

[pelsar]

39. sometimes simple truths....get buried

It could, but at a lesser capacity than through Karni...

the only existing crossing for the export and import of goods serving Gaza’s 1.4 million people, is Karni.

The crossing at Egyptian border can bring in goods.....which means it also is an "existing crossing"...which means if there really is a humanitarian crises, then there is no physical obstacle to bringing in whats needed.

and if its a "man made disaster, its an egyptian/palestenian one....designed to blame israel, which some have been suckered into.

[Englander]

51. Complete nonsense.

Nice cherry-picking, by the way.
So, when do these literacy programmes start in Isreal? Because they're sorely
needed, by the looks of things.

The crossing at the Egyptian border, does not serve 1.4 million people, the *only*
crossing that serves, that meets the needs of, 1.4 million people, is Karni. Have you
not understood that? How many times has that *fact* been mentioned, how many times has
that been explained? The only existing crossing for the export & import of goods serving
Gaza's 1.4 million people, is Karni.

Source;

'An Interim Assessement of Passages and Trade Facilitation

Prepared by the World Bank Technical Team, February 28, 2006

>snip

Movement of Goods and People in Gaza

5. The Karni crossing, the only existing crossing for the export and import of goods serving Gaza’s 1.4 million people, has evolved through a turbulent period in bilateral relations from a gated gap in the Gaza perimeter to today’s complex, haphazard and inefficient facility.

http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/COUNTRIES/MENAEXT/WESTBANKGAZAEXTN/0,,contentMDK:20844212~pagePK:141137~piPK:141127~theSitePK:294365,00.html#Assesement_Passage

[pelsar]

63. import and export are not a humanitarian crisis...

if the problem is a humanitarium crises then rafah can be used since one is then by passing the security checks, customs etc. and just delivering food.

one road, each truck needs 10 meters......thats 100 trucks every kilimoter x 10km = 1000 trucks....traveling at 30km/hr......

more than enough to pass through...

import and export are far more complex and require a lot more...but the subject at hand is the so called humanitarian crises......

[Englander]

67. Complete fantasy.

The capacity for goods at Rafah is a fraction of the capacity at Karni, only Karni
has the ability to allow enough lorries through to end this man-made, GoI-sponsered,
deliberately-manufactured crisis. The suggestion that there isn't a crisis, or that
it could be solved without using the main crossing into Gaza, which is Karni, really
is a complete fantasy.

[pelsar]

75. starving in gaza?..

any links?......pictures...not of a crises that might be...but of one presently happening....

[King Mongo]

79. What do you understand with "verge of a humanitarian disaster"?

Is this something which can be ignored if it is not happening to Israelis?

[pelsar]

92. i havent seen any real info....

a few articles say "its going to happen".....but the news reports interviewing the palestenains in gaza show no sign of it....

[Englander]

89. Avi? n/t

[barb162]

37. Trade/ aid CAN and DOES flow through Rafah (Egypt crossing)

But when that little fact is ackowledged,then how can some people complain about Israel closing its own crossings? It's easier to complain and to pretend that the Egypt border doesn't exist. There is nothing to be puzzled about at all.


Here's a tidbit on Rafah crossing and other crossings over which the Hamas and Abbas's people are fighting for control.

http://www.albawaba.com/en/news/196624
"snip
Officials close to Abbas disclosed he had faced pressure from the European Union, which threatened to withdraw its monitors from the Rafah crossing between Gaza Strip and Egypt in response to Hamas' political rise. "snip"

[Englander]

52. Why are you ignoring Karni?

Why are you ignoring the only trade terminal that has the capacity to meet the needs
of the people in Gaza? Have you not understood why it's more important to open, & use,
the Karni crossing? The Karni crossing has the greater capacity, didn't you know that?

[pelsar]

64. which is why

one wonders why the palestenaians arent doing more to protect it....

[Englander]

69. Wtf? n/t

[Coastie for Truth]

3. Lot of places verging on disaster

[Englander]

4. That's completely irrelevant.

Is it necessary to explain why?

[Coastie for Truth]

6. All disasters are relevant

unless your "disaster awareness" includes "racial profiling" and disregards the survivors of Katrina.

I've been to New Orleans and worked with Katrina survivors.

[Englander]

15. That's completely irrelevant to*this*thread.

Unless yer suggesting that the GOI was responsible for Katrina, I can't see
how an article that's about the GOI-engineered, man-made disaster in Gaza, should
illicit the response, that, quote, 'Lot of places verging on disaster', with a
link about Katrina. This thread is about the man-made disaster in Gaza, & attempts
to justify it, or introduce red herrings about other natural disasters, aren't relevant.

[Coastie for Truth]

16. Yr pinion

[Englander]

32. 'Stuff happens', eh?

[Violet_Crumble]

34. We should lobby to have the name of this forum changed...

...to the 'Let's Talk About Everywhere Else But Israel' forum...

Violet...

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tom Joad]

11. Thanks for posting this. If people want to help, they can....

go here
http://www.mecaforpeace.org/

It will do something to help those in this humanitarian disaster.

We should be very clear, however, that this is very much a man-made disaster, a direct result of the policies of Sharon/Olmert, and very much a policy supported by the US government.

As German dissident Dietrich Bonhoeffer said:
Sometimes it is not enough to merely bandage the victims who fall under the wheel of the State, we must jam a spoke in the wheel itself.

[pelsar]

12. wheres egypt?

perhaps you would like to blame egypt as well?.....the do have access to gaza...or is there some reason why your not mentioning them?...perhaps you would like to enlighten some of us who find the continual "evil israeli/evil israeli govt rather tiresome when they're are other options available....lets see:
israelis, jews....egypt, arabs, musims....well if its not that, then what can it be?

[Phx_Dem]

14. quit trying to make it complicated

it's about the JEWS DAMMIT!!! ;)

[King Mongo]

17. If Jews were suffering in Gaza...

...and the Hamas in Israel was occupying Gaza while some Jews in Gaza were firing rockets at the Hamas in Israel, what would people do about the hundreds of thousands of Jews who were suffering in Gaza?

Would they blame the Jews? If hundreds of thousands of Jew are suffering in a small occupied region and some of them were practicing violence... What would we do? Would we listen to the Hamas and refuse to hand their taxes over to them since they voted for the Likud party which refused to recognize that Israel existed with a Hamas regime? Would we greatly limit the flow of goods accross the border, causing most of the situation?

[Phx_Dem]

18. your argument is silly

...and the Hamas in Israel was occupying Gaza while some Jews in Gaza were firing rockets at the Hamas in Israel, what would people do about the hundreds of thousands of Jews who were suffering in Gaza?

There would not be Jews in Gaza, or anywhere in your thoretical Palestine, they would have all been killed already, to make room for the Caliphate.

[King Mongo]

19. Would Jews be blamed for suffering in Gaza?

>>There would not be Jews in Gaza

This is your personal opinon which is not shared by most of those whom you criticize. So, take a minute to preserve such opinions in the fridge and analyse the situation:


If hundreds of thousands of Jews were suffering in Gaza which was occupied by the Hamas, would the Jews be blamed?

The fair answer is no. The Jews would not be blamed. Rather, the Hamas would be blamed. If people argue that my argument is silly, then they are only argueing such because they don't want to blame the occupying power, since under current conditions it would mean that they would have to critize Israel more than what they currently do.

[Phx_Dem]

20. whatever dude

I don't like hypothetical. We should try and stick to reality, which is difficult enough without this kind of shit.

EDIT: Let me just point out that who is to blame is not the "critical" issue here, both sides engage in illegal acts, what do we do to improve the situation?

If you thought that your security was at risk I would imagine that you would do what is necessary to protect you and your loved ones.

[King Mongo]

22. Everyone has biases....

In order to stick to reality, one has to imagine how "they" would be treated if "they" were "them". Many people argue that it's the Palestinians or Jews fault that they are suffering, while they would never say the same about the other if the same was done to them.

Thus, hypothetical arguments are the best way of seeing things from a fair perspective. Many on both sides feel that their security is at risk and thus many on both sides do what they believe is necessary to protect themselves and their loved ones. For example, most Palestinians voted for the Hamas to protect themselves and their loved ones while not to long ago, most Israelis voted for the Likud party to protect themselves and their loved ones.

So, in order to improve the situation, one has to work towards improving the situation for both sides since both sides would equally suffer in the same situation.

[Phx_Dem]

24. nice response

thanks for being civil about it. I did not understand where you were coming from, now I do. I agree that we have biases, and wonder if it's really possible to look at things from "the other perspective".

My concern is that the Pal leadership is not doing what it can to stop the violence. In a community like Gaza or the West Bank, strong, honest, principled leadership is essential.

[King Mongo]

29. This is possible...

Palestinian leadership has changed 3 times lately and the violence persists. Abbas has always seemed to be very pro-West and didn't Hamas even attempt to ban the public possession of arms lately? My guess is that a final border defined under fair conditions would be a huge step in the direction towards slowly discouraging much violence, since people would not be encouraged to fight against and occupation which didn't exist.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[King Mongo]

23. Since Israel needs to recognize that Palestine exists

as an independent non-occupied nation, it must only control what goes in and out of Israel, but not Gaza or even the West Bank. Is this the case?

[pelsar]

25. israel has no control over gaza.....

the palestenains and egyptians do with their border as they want.. israel has every right to close down karmi....its an entrance to israel.

the palestenians have no right to demand that israel open its border to gaza. They want to export?...fine talk to egypt...they want more imports?...egypt....

they've got complaints?....they've got their arab brothers to help them out in Egypt

[King Mongo]

28. On this, I agree...

...I thought that Israel was still controlling the border between Gaza and Egypt. Thanks for the update. :) How good is access to this border? Does Gaza have a seaport and an airport? Why doesn't Israel just permentantly close its border, along the green line, to Gaza and the West Bank? My guess is that Karma was the main crossing for goods, due to the occupation and now this needs to quickly change since Israel needs to recognize that Palestine is an independent unoccupied nation.

[pelsar]

30. the border between egypt and gaza......

there is a single border crossing point at rafah nothing made for large inport/export. The Europeans were there for "inspection" but i dont know if they're still there or not. There was a video feed for israel but it had a delay so as far as israels security concerns...it had no use.

the result is that the border is completly controlled by egypt and the palestenains. The actual border is simply a simple barbed wire fence in the sand separating the two areas, no mines nothing complex. A concrete wall exists in one area in the city of Rafah (split in two because of the border)..and thats it.

Gaza has no port, though they are/were building one. Egypt at Port Said, 20min south has a port capable of handling vegis.

Gaza has a small airport also in the south.

The reason israel doesnt close Karmi and Erez permanently is that they can be used for exporting for the palestenains, Karmi is setup for that with large truck terminals, inspections etc. Economically for israel there is little impact, however for the palestenians it does...and the better the palestenains live the better it will be for everybody. Egypt for its own reasons doesnt want to have large movement between gaza and egypt (if you remember when sadat got back the sinai, he refused gaza)

the problem being, now that israel is no longer responsable for gaza, it no longer feels necessary to risk israeli lives for the palestenians. They have refused to protect karmi, so every little warning gets it closed down....(its probably related to them attempting to avoid a civil war)

[King Mongo]

55. So, Israel has every right and reason to close the border...

..yet, since the closing of the border causes innocent civilians to suffer, Israel cannot close the border until an alternative is created.

Palestinians have every right and reason to resist the occupation, so Palestinians cannot be blamed for the situation if some of them use violence. Israel should noit blamed for having the right and need to close the border to defend itself. Yet, until an alternative is created, Israel, unfortunately, cannot prevent goods from reaching Palestinians since such would cause hundreds of thousands to suffer and this simply cannot happen.

I think that it is best to blame everyone. We are all guilty of causing innocent civilians to suffer. We are all terrorists until a reasonable solution to this problem has been found. There is no reason why so many innocent civilians should suffer.

[pelsar]

62. the alternative exists.....

its simply a matter of using it.....there is no reason for egypt not to open its border for the trucks, nor is there any reason for the palestenains not to request that of the egyptians.

this is nothing more than a political crises on the backs of the non starving palestenains by their own leadeship....

did i mention that there is no occupation in gaza...so what are they resisting by trying to blow up karni?

[King Mongo]

73. Gaza alone is not the independent, unoccupied nation of Palestine

Basically, you are saying that if the Hamas occupied all of Israel except for Haifa, then Israelis would not have any reason to use violence since the Hamas did not occupy Haifa. I disagree with you since I believe that Israelis would have the right to use violence as long as the Hamas occupied any part of Israel, including Haifa. Thus, there is no reason why Palestinians should not use violence since Israelis would do the same in the same situation. To be fair, one always has to consider what one would do in their situation.

It is my understanding that only Karni provides need infrastructure needed to deliver the goods needed. Thus, the goods must be delivered through Karni until other crossings reach the same standard, since terrorism is unacceptable.

[pelsar]

76. your understanding is wrong...

if its a humanitarian crises then there is nothing preventing supplies from being brought in via egypt.....if were talking import/export than Karni is the prefered border point since the palestenains/egyptians have no bothered to enlarge the rafah terminal. Perhaps now they will.

however israel has every right to close down its borders to the palestenains in gaza...they have options. It may be less convenient, it may be slower, but they exisit.

israelis dont have to risk their lives so the palestenains can import supplies. If karni is so important then they could also protect it from their side of the border...they dont.

and if the palestenians want to use violence...they can..but as history has shown, in general its a losing proposition for them....they're lives have become more and more miserable using the same strategy of killing israelis in their homes, resturants busses etc. They might want to try something else. I used to wonder how much worse could it get for them...well now they've got hamas, which like iran, may mean many years of fanatical theocratic dictatorship with continued violence from within and without their society.

[King Mongo]

77. People do not practice self-defense because they know that they will lose

Rather,they practice self-defense because they seek justice and/or freedom and/or independence, even if they will lose by attempting to gain such. Palestinians have every right and reason to attempt to become what Israel is using Israeli methods of violence or non-violence.

If Israel, being the occupied power, had used Rafah as the main point for the flow of goods in and out of Gaza, then this problem that we have today would not exist. Of course, it is not logical for the occupation power to use Rafah for the main flow of goods. It is only a matter of time for the main flow of goods to switch to Rafah and Karni must remain open most of the time until this switch is possible.

[pelsar]

80. so the palestenains and egyptians have no responsability?

Israel left months ago....its doesnt take much time to enlarge a terminal......yet nothing has been done in Rafah so far. Israel doesnt have to risk the lives of its citiizens for Egyptian/Palestenains/arab politics and incompetence.....


because that is exactly what you are saying.....



as far as the Palestenains methods (suicide bombers, death videos, celebration of killings all by all of their organizations, targeting of any and all civilians where ever possible)...you wont find that in within israels history...and the result of that is the fractured violent society that they have in gaza and the westbank (and give the palestenians the minimum of respect by allowing them the ability to and the credit for making the choices that have led to their own society)....and their choices were poor.....as the results bear out. They had other options, wiser ones, but they chose not to use them. Perhaps one day, they'll realize them, if not, they're lives are unlikly to improve much.

[King Mongo]

82. Wrong

There are many situations were Israelis killed civilians while attempting to gain independence. Today, Israeli even has nukes so that it can target and kill civilians for the purpose of self-defense and there are many instances where IDF troops have targetted and killed innocent civilians. Thus, we are forced to recognize that both sides target and kill innocent civilians for self-defense purposes and thus it is unfair to criticize one more than the other on the matter.


>>its doesnt take much time to enlarge a terminal

Do you have any evidence which proves that Egypt, Palestinians and the West are acting to slow in building the infrastructure? Certainly, Israel, being the occupied power, could have built the infracture that its occupied people need in order for them to not suffer. Given that Israel is still the occupying power, is it not an act of terror for Israel to not provide the occupied people with such an infrastructure?

[pelsar]

84. israel is NOT allowed to be in Rafah....

i dont think you understand the geographics politics.....Israel is no longer in Gaza, months now....the Rafah terminal is an Egyptian/Palestenain thing...and just and Egyptian/Palestenian thing, so if you want to claim the lack of building such a terminal as terrorism, blame the Egyptians or the Palestinians

Do i have any evidence that that the egyptians and Palestinians are acting slow (i have no idea why the "west" is involved, they can plan and build their own terminals..they arent incompetent as you suggest)?... only that fact that its been months now and there has been no change. I would guess that, that is proof. (its doesn't take much to enlarge an border crossing)

Why on earth would israel have built a terminal to Egypt?...Egypt did not want anything to do with Gaza, thats why Sadat refused to take it back. (they would have to agree to such a thing-egypt is a country that has its own borders). So now your blaming israel for not making a terminal from gaza to egypt when egypt didn't even want one?..maybe Egypt should have made the terminal?

How is israel now occupying Gaza?....no israeli soldier is there, they do what they want with their own society....you seem to refuse to give the Palestinians the minimum of self respect..the ability to make their decisions
__________________________________________

Israel (both pre independence and post) never celebrated the deaths of civilians, never proclaimed it as a goal....there is a difference and it reflects upon the differences within the societies

or are you the type that believe targeting a bus full of families, and celebrating the successful killing of 30+ people and destroying 60 families the same as helicopter attacking a specific car with a person(s) whos been attempting to blow up additional busses (and the subsequent additional people hurt and killed by the fragments?). If thats the case the IDF should just drop larger bombs and not try to minimize the kill zone and....(after all i believe you dont see the difference....)

[King Mongo]

87. Israel, being the ocupying power,

should have built the infrastructure in Rafah needed to replace Karni, prior to closing its borders. This is just something that occupying powers need to do, since they are responsible for the people whom they occupy. Since Israel did not do this, it has to keep Karni open. This answers this question:
"Why on earth would israel have built a terminal to Egypt?...". Karni must remain upon until another option is available.

>>Do i have any evidence that that the egyptians and Palestinians are acting slow

You are the one who blames Arabs, so it is indeed you who needs to show that a valid reason for your blaming exists. If you cannot prove that Arabs are acting to slow, then you should not be blaming them at all. Given that Israel, being the occupying power, used Karni for the main transport of goods rather than Rafah, the Egyptian economy was certainly not economically stimulated to develop Rafah.

>>never celebrated the deaths of civilians

This is debatable and does not mean that innocent civilians were not intentionally killed. Personally, I have read the views of many on both sides who defend the murder of innocent civilians. There are many methods used to killing innocent civilians and one method is not any more or less acceptable than another.

[pelsar]

90. widen a road....?

how long do you think it takes to widen a road?....put down a few small buildings housing some office workers?

israel LEFT Gaza 8 months ago!!! you must believe the Egyptians and Palestenians are incredibly incompetent for not being able to wide a road put in a few small buildings in 8 months!

your attempt at blaming israel is getting more and more incoherent:

Given that Israel, being the occupying power, used Karni for the main transport of goods rather than Rafah, the Egyptian economy was certainly not economically stimulated to develop Rafah.

Israel couldnt use Rafah..its on the Egyptian border and what does " the egytian economy was not stimulated to develop rafah mean?...they didnt have the means to widen the road?....israel left 8 MONTHS AGO!

[King Mongo]

94. As I stated before....

Israel has every right and reason to close Karni, but since civilians cannot be terrorized, Karni must remain open until other alteratives are available, since innocent civilians cannot be harmed.

While you are blaming Arabs of being slow in constructing an alternative to Karni, I'm examing if your blames carry any value. Certainly, it would be beneficial for Egypt for goods to Gaza to flow through Egypt and it would be best for Palestinians if the goods went directly to Gaza. Since you are so eager to blame Arabs, I feel that it is only fair for you to show us some study which analyses the situation to see if anyone could do things better to help Palestinians sooner.

[pelsar]

95. what dont you understand?

israel closes an entry port to gaza....Israeli papers now state the palestenains have an estimated 3 weeks of basic food stuff (flour etc) before they run out.

what is preventing (i assume you saw the pictures that showed the Rafah terminal, with the trucks crossing?) trucks from entering with food?


what kind of "study" is required?..to study the road subsurface to see if it can stand the weight of the trucks? It seems to me if karni is closed ANY solution will be better than brings in food than nothing?

why do you believe that food cant be brought in via Rafah?...why dont we start with that?..(it is supposed to be an emergency....)

[King Mongo]

97. Fair...

I can see your point of view and it makes sense. Going back to my argument about the West, it is my understanding that the West is reponsible for bring much food to Gaza. Why doesn't the West transport the food through Rafah? Europe and the US invest millions to bring food to the area and certainly they can control the shipments to go through Rafah instead of Karni.

[pelsar]

98. politics.....

anyways the israeli papers say they have 3 weeks worth of food in gaza.....i dont believe the palestenains are in any real danger...."someone" will open the gates, be it the israelis or the egytians (i'll bet on the israelis)

[Violet_Crumble]

36. I haven't got much experience with land borders..

but it does seem kind of weird to me that some folk are acting as though crossings that were never set up to deal with large volumes of cargo should miraculously transform into crossings for cargo. Somehow I get the feeling it's just not as easy or practical as it's being presented as...

Violet...

[pelsar]

40. its a question of a "crisis or not"

if there is a real humanitarian crises in gaza, then there is no physical barrier to bringing in whats needed....all the trucks have to do is take the road from egypt via rafah to gaza....humanitarian crises dont requires customs, taxes, inspections, security checks, etc which is what happens at karni.

they can also go through keren shaom in S. Israel.....it is that simple. The "crises" is man-made..and its the PA that is doing it.

Furthermore, why shouldnt the Rafah terminal be enlarged to facilitate import/export?..Israel has no say in the matter and the palestenians should stop being dependant upon karni and israel....

a road is a road....and a road leads directly from egypt to gaza

[Violet_Crumble]

44. This may come as a massive shock...

But the Rafah terminal can't just be enlarged overnight, pelsar. And if there is a real humanitarian crisis and customs, taxes, inspections, security checks, etc aren't an issue, then Karni should be reopened...

There's no doubts at all that there is a real humanitarian crisis happening in Gaza, and while I know you absolutely detest Israel holding the slightest bit of responsibility for anything, in this case Israel has contributed to what's happened...

Violet...

[pelsar]

45. it doesnt have to be enlarged....

karni is closed because the palestenains (some) seem to not to be able to resist to kill israelis-thats why its closed and israel no longer feels it has to endanger is citizens for the palestenians in gaza.


so explain to me: why is the road from egypt to gaza not "good enough" to carry goods in trucks?.....

it doesnt have to be "enlarged" if they're just driving through. What the physical barrier?

[Violet_Crumble]

48. But karni was open for longer periods when Israelis were being killed...

That's a fact, pelsar. Of course as you said security's not an issue when it comes to a humanitarian crisis, it's telling that you don't think that security issues should be thrown out the door when it comes to Israel. That only applies to Palestinians apparently...

So maybe you can explain to me why you'd prefer to see Palestinians starve than have a crossing that operated in the past reopened?

Violet...

[pelsar]

53. watch your dates....

they tend to mean a lot:

...karni was kept open even under threats when israel was responsable for the palestenains in gaza....its that simple.

that is no longer the situation, israel is no longer responsable as they have access to the world via Egypt and no longer must israeli lives be risked for the palestenians in gaza. Why should they be?
________________________________________

The crises is purly "man made"......its been going on for over a "week now" and we sure dont hear much of the 'lack of food" coming out of gaza do we? And since israel has every right to control is own border and since the palestenians have access via egypt, there is in fact no crises what so ever.

The palestenans are in fact not starving (any news articles?) and if they really were, perhaps you would like to direct your complaints to egypt?...i've never seen you do that?...why blame israel when there is access via Egypt.

Perhaps you could mention a single physical reason why trucks cant be driven in to Gaza from Egypt? (a port is a mere 20minutes away)

[King Mongo]

56. There must be a reason...

...why more trucks are not being driven to Gaza from Egypt. I seriously doubt that we would allow for civilians to die in a camp, simply because of transportation difficulties, or would we? I doubt that Europe and the US would be willing to let Palestinans suffer simply because they have no desire to invest into transportation improvements. As for Egypt, I don't see any reason why Egypt, being one of the West's strongest allies in the region, would reject economic growth.

It is easy to recognize that Karma should be permenantly closed and other possibilities need to be investigated. But, until then, Karma cannot be closed.

[pelsar]

58. the answers....

no one is "dying"...and there is no real humanitarian crises....ever see any pictures coming out of gaza?...new articles from the international stringers there?..what we've seen on TV (israeli reporters)...show nothing unusual going on....


As for egypt...simply put they want access to gaza restricted, they dont want the security headache of having import/export from gaza.

Karmi can be closed and the arabs nations and their allies who support the palestenains can prove how much they support their arab brothers (the palestenians) by pressuring egypt, an arab/muslim country to support one of their own-enlarge the rafah crossing...and leave the israelis/jews out of it.

[King Mongo]

59. Are you not to quick to blame Egypt?

From my observations, it seems as if Egypt is very interested in becoming more prosperous, but building the infrastructure to provide such takes much longer than closing a border. Karmi can be replaced and cannot be closed yet since it is wrong to cause civilians to suffer.


Al-Arish is a cheaper port both in terms of port fees and labor costs, and its facilities are currently undergoing a US $ 10 million upgrade to handle 30,000-ton vessels. Once the upgrade is complete, al-Arish will have the capacity to handle a substantial portion of the Palestinian expert trade. Given the importance of opening up a reliable alternate export route, the PA seems likely to push for quick negotiation of customs arrangements and possibly even a role in rehabilitating the port.
http://headheeb.blogmosis.com/archives/030783.html

[pelsar]

65. no i'm not...because the alternatives exist....

http://www.emdb.gov.eg/english_v/ports_e/new_ports_e.htm

Egyptian port working today south of gaza...whereas Al Arish is even closer if its a REAL humanitarin crises the solutions exist via egypt today.

[King Mongo]

71. If the crisis could be so easily avoided...

... then I'm sure that it would be avoided. I can't imagine that we would let a crisis happen, if it didn't have to happen. If Karni was not needed, then certainly it would not be used. I think that the switch needs more time to happen.

[King Mongo]

60. Read this, if you want to blame Egypt....

Israel Threatens to Restrict Trade At Gaza Frontier


JERUSALEM — Israel threatened on Friday to restrict trade across its frontier with Gaza if the Palestinians fail to address its security concerns at the newly opened border crossing between Gaza and Egypt within two days.

The restrictions, if carried out, would further choke Gaza's already shaky economy and damage hopes for renewed cooperation between Israel and the Palestinians following Israel's pullout from the Gaza Strip in September.

The threat was made at a meeting between Israeli officials and international mediators. The Associated Press obtained notes of the session.

Early Saturday, an Israeli naval boat patrolling the Gaza coast shot and killed a Palestinian in the town of Rafah near the Egyptian border, Palestinian officials said. Israel had no immediate comment.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,178322,00.html

[pelsar]

66. whats the problem?......

were talking about bringing in food/flour for a "humanitarian crisis"....or is it a cover to bring in more katushas?

Your link is over 4 months old....since then the israel have closed down its own video monitoring station as it was deemed a waste of time, the euros have left the terminal a couple of times, if there even there now...



anyways realistically israel cant do anything....reinvading gaza? as thats what it would take and then staying there. Israel didnt leave just to return to the same situation.

[King Mongo]

72. The current crisis is the result of many months...

...unless I'm mistaken. I think that the only thing that Israel can do is to criticize the "West" for not creating alternatives while ensuring that civilians get the basic things that they need.

[pelsar]

74. the west is not involved...

its a palestenain/egyptian problem...whats hard to understand here:

if its just to bring in emergency supplies...then egyptian ports and egyptian access are all available...nothing physical is stopping a ship from unloading supplies in the egyptian ports...loading them on to trucks and driving all the way to rafah in gaza..absolutly nothing.


if the question is a matter of importing and exporting than one can complain that israel is interfering...since for reasons unknown since israel left months ago, the palestenains and egyptians have not enlarged the rafah border point.....

[King Mongo]

78. The West is very much involved...

Certainly, the West could send the goods through Rafah instead of Karni, if they had that ability. I'm sure that they will have this ability soon because I'm sure that they don't want to use Karni.

Since Egyptians are in the process of improving the infrastructure around Rafah, it is maybe just to criticize them for being to slow, but it is unfair to claim that they are doing nothing or to blame them rather than others who are also responsible.

[pelsar]

81. no food in Egypt?

why cant Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and the Palestenains other brethren send food?......Yes the west can send food...(the Danish food, despite the crises was thrown out in gaza), so can those countries in the east ...and so can those countries in the middle east.

But the west has no "responsability" to send them food.....and again if its a crises, what is the physical problem of loading up a truck in Cairo and trucking across the sinai in a hour and unloading in rafah amongs the "starving palestenains".....

i'll answer for you....nothing....just politics.

[King Mongo]

83. It is debatable regarding how much responsibility the West has...

... but it is a well known fact that the West is participating in helping Palestinians. I seriously doubt that the West would allow for Palestinians to die in a camp, even if Israelis desired such.

As for Arabs, they are also sending lots of money, attempting to help Palestinians. If you want to blame them, then you need to provide evidence that they are responsible for the slow construction of the infrastructure around Rafah. But, until then, Karni must remain open since terror is wrong.

[pelsar]

85. enlarging a terminal....

i assume you have no idea how long it takes to enlarge a road, place in some buildings for inspection, ....something like a truck stop in america:

a couple of weeks tops.......if your on the fast track...a couple of days.

israel left months ago.......

simple math.

(actually to date the arabs countries have NOT sent money...promises yes, but no actual money)

[King Mongo]

88. Egypt is not America...

In order to buy your argument, I need a very in-depth and fair analysis of the sitaution. Egypt is not as advanced as the US and we should not forget that the place is a desert, with, I believe, only 20000 people living on the Egyptian side of Rafah.

[pelsar]

91. Egypt cant construct a customs post?

Egypt is not as "advanced as the US"..

now were getting somewhere....you assuming they're incompetent...that they cant widen a road, place down a a few small buildings in an environement where the infrastructure already exists wihin 8 months...now Thats interesting.

(those 20,000 people....they live in mud huts? take water from a well? are all sheephearders?)

so why are they so incompetent in your opinon?

look what i found i google looking up: rafah crossing -images buldings, roads all kinds of stuff that they actually built (remove the spaces to see the links)

http//www .amin.org/eng/uncat/2005/sept/p1.jpg

http//www .pchrgaza.org/images/2005/weekly39.jpg

http// rafahpundits.com/pics/capt.sge.ilx36.070205145548.photo00.photo.default-300x384

[King Mongo]

93. Having the abililty

to build roads, does not mean that one can build them as quickly and efficiently as others. Furthermore, large projects may take months to plan and longer to build. So far, you've demonstrated nothing which could give one a good reason to blame Arabs.

[pelsar]

96. minor detail.....

the roads exist. the buildings exist....if they want to widen the road, it doesnt take 8 months

....look up in google:

rafah crossing

www. kibush.co.il/downloads/ RafahCrossing.jpg
______

your the one claiming incompetence on the arab side, as if they cant expand the terminal if they want, i know they're competent in both planning and building and if they desired could do it in weeks

[Coastie for Truth]

13. Or here

[Tom Joad]

26. Today, April 5, is Palestinian Child Day!

While we remember hungry children in Gaza, we must also remember the whole picture.

Statement by the Palestinian Network for Children's Rights on Palestinian Child Day

For the past few years, this day – Palestinian Child Day – has become synonymous with grief and pain. On the 5 April each year, Palestinian children have searched for their childhood and sought to renew their broken dreams. The event revives memories of their suffering and the suffering of their friends at the hands of the Israeli occupation. Since April 2002, when Israeli troops launched the largest military campaign against Palestinian civilians across the West Bank, the level of suffering increased. The campaign resulted in the killing, arrest, injury and bereavement of scores of children; and in the months and years that have followed, these violations have been repeated time and again across the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT).
This year, the circumstances surrounding Palestinian Child Day are no different – our children continue to feel the pain of occupation. Israeli forces continue to deprive children of their right to life – since the start of this year alone, 12 children have been killed, bringing to 740 the total number of children fatalities since the start of the intifada. In the same period, around 4,000 minors have been arrested, of whom some 400 are still in prison.

This Palestinian Child Day, we highlight the particular concern of ongoing Israeli practices and pressure against our children in the Gaza Strip. Despite the physical withdrawal of the Israeli military from Gaza last August – much hailed by the international media and politicians – the area remains a giant open-air prison with Israeli forces controlling all exit and entry points. The Israeli authorities have kept sealed for most of this year the only cargo crossing point into Gaza, and at the risk of triggering a humanitarian catastrophe, have prevented food and medical supplies from entering the strip. It is unacceptable that the Israeli authorities use the lives and rights of Palestinian children as a political bargaining tool and we call on the UN and international community to exert pressure on the Israeli government to stop these illegal and unethical practices.

In the West Bank, Israeli actions consistently and systematically violate the special rights protections provided for children under both international human rights and humanitarian law. Specifically, the repeated military incursions into areas in the West Bank and the continued construction of the separation wall undermine the rights of children to education, adequate standard of living, healthcare and the right to life.

As such, the Palestinian Network for Children's Rights urges the international community and the States Parties to the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child (CRC) to abide by their obligations to protect children's rights without discrimination. We also ask the international community to pressure the Israeli government to abide by its obligations under international law through ceasing at once all violations against Palestinian children and implementing immediately the concluding observations of the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child regarding the applicability of the CRC on the OPT.

On the internal level, as members of the Palestinian community, we too must act to protect, respect and implement Palestinian children's rights. One year ago, the Palestinian Child Law entered into force. We must now join together to push for the law to be implemented, and for bylaws to be issued specifying the scope and responsibility of each ministry in fulfilling its part in relation to this law.

Moreover, we call on the Palestinian Legislative Council to accelerate the enactment of the Juvenile Justice Law. This must be a priority, for without this children in conflict with the law will continue to suffer due to an of absence legislation guaranteeing their protection and their best interests.

Childhood should not be regarded as a preparatory stage for adulthood. It is an independent developmental stage which all children should experience. Today, we, as members of the Palestinian community, should work to transform this Palestinian Child Day into an occasion of fun and hope through encouraging respect for our children and their rights.

The Palestinian Network for Children's Rights is a coalition of 55 organisations working with children. It is led by Defence for Children International/Palestine Section.


Please call, email and write Israel's Ambassador to the United States and demand that Israel adhere to the UN Conventions on the Right of the Child.

Daniel Ayalon, Israel's Ambassador to the United States
[e-mail]
3514 International Dr. N.W.
Washington DC 20008
Tel: [phone]

[barb162]

38. A great day for Hamas to renounce violence against Israel!

And to get aid flowing back to the Palestinian children! Now is the time to write to the leaders of Hamas

[pelsar]

41. a great day to remove the guns from the childrens hands....

too many picts showing hamas kids dressed up as soldiers holding real M-16s......write the hamas (as if they would listen)....tell them to stop stealing their childrens childhoods....teach their children tolerence, love ("ugh" the jew....)

[Violet_Crumble]

43. Will either of you be writing to the Israeli ambassador to the US?

..or demanding that Israel renounce violence? If not, why not?

btw, given the dishonesty of some US based 'supporters' of Israel, I've got serious doubts as to the authenticity of some of those pics that are touted to be Palestinian kiddies...

Violet...

[pelsar]

46. no i wont be writing...

because i dont believe in suicide......nor do i see my kids being taught violence, or to hate the palestenains.....

and the picts?
just go the palestenain sites...whats so difficult?...or perhaps you simple dont want to see some simple facts?
http://www.palestine-info.net/arabic/palestoday/dailynews/2006/mar06/18_3/photo/index.htm

[Violet_Crumble]

47. Didn't think you would be...

...I didn't realise the thing Tom posted about Palestinian children was about how they're all committing suicide. In fact, going back and reading it, it doesn't say that at all. In fact, it's a safe bet that you wouldn't write coz yr incapable of criticising the Israeli govt in any way when it comes to its treatment of the Palestinians...

You have to be joking? Yr claiming every pic is authentic coz of a few pics on one website?? And you don't see Israeli kids being taught violence or hatred? What's that saying about none so blind as those who will not see?

Violet...

[pelsar]

54. the pict

are on palestenain websites...so your saying they're putting up fake pictures of their own kids?

israeli kids (settlers) to be sure are taught hate etc, but the government run schools, the media, the celebrations do not in israel, not so with the palestenains.

you mention i am incapable of critizing the israeli govt...quite the contrary i am very critical of them...just not here. here on the DU where everything that happens to the palestenains is israels fault, here on the DU where israel is permitted no realistic defense (running away yes....) I will defend israeli policy.
____________________________
i've noticed you cant criticize the PA...if your brave enough we can do an experiment...switch sides. I'll criticize israel and the IDF and you do the same for the PA....on all the usual topics.....can you do it?

[Violet_Crumble]

86. Didn't I already address this?

I said: 'I've got serious doubts as to the authenticity of some of those pics that are touted to be Palestinian kiddies...' yet you give me a link to a few pics on one website and act as though that covers every photo that's ever existed. So I stand by what I said and I'll doubly stress it. I have serious doubts as to the authenticity of SOME pics that are touted to be Palestinian kiddies...

Now I'm going to ask you a question. Go back and read the thing that Tom posted and explain why you don't think it's important that Israel adhere to the UN Conventions on the Right of the Child. If you did think it was important you'd have willingly added that to yr Letter-Writing list...

I find that excuse for defending Israeli policy particularly weak. You either agree with particular policy or you don't. Changing yr tune and blaming others for it just doesn't work. Also, DU does allow pro-Israel posters to have their say as long as they can do so without violating the rules of the forum or indulging in anti-Arab/Muslim bigotry...

As for noticing that I can't criticise the PA, I've criticised the PA back in the days of Arafat and more recently than that. Would you like me to supply you with links?

Aside from that, I'd be interested in a switching sides experiment, as long as it was done in a serious way and it didn't devolve into an opportunity for bizarre point-scoring. If yr happy to agree on some ground rules, then I'd love to do it...

Violet...

[Violet_Crumble]

99. Pelsar, are you interested in the switching sides experiment?

n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

100. One more attempt and then I've take it that yr not interested...

Which kind of sucks as I find those sorts of exercises can be learning experiences for all involved...

Violet...

[pelsar]

102. patience...

i had to get some work done today...

[pelsar]

101. sure...

i think it would be interesting for all involved....

[Tom Joad]

61. Sending Israeli kids to kill in the occupied territories is much worse

That is suicide for the nation of Israel, to keep this conflict going for more decades. And olmert's plan is a suicide pact, because it invites decades of more violence, by clinging on to massive tracts of land in the West Bank.

Support those that refuse!


Bil’in Demonstration Remembers Recent Death Caused by Wall
April 6th, 2006 | Posted in Reports, Bil'in Village

Tomorrow’s Bil’in demonstration will be a memorial for the twelfth victim of the apartheid wall. Eyad Taha Salame Taha, a 28 year-old man from Beit Annan, was drowned in a flood caused by the wall in Bil’in on Sunday, April 2, 2006.

Eyad and his brother, Raad, were traveling to work when flood waters swept their car away. They got out of the car and were washed towards the barrier by strong currents. Raad was rescued by villagers, but Eyad was found unconscious, entangled in the razor wire of the apartheid barrier.

Bil’in activists, joined by Israelis and internationals, will hold a ceremony by the wall next to the village, and will build a monument to honor Eyad at the site of his death. Activists have also printed a thousand full color posters showing Eyad next to the wall and above Al Aqsa mosque.

Eyad’s tragic death highlights the reality of the destructive effects of the wall on the lives of Palestinians in Bil’in and all along the wall.

Unfortunately, his is not the first life lost as a result of the wall. Eleven others lost their lives in demonstrations against the illegal annexation barrier, including five children under the age of 16.

Mohammad Fadel Hashem Rayan, age 25, from Beit Duko was killed in Beit Ijza on February 26, 2004 by live ammunition shot at him by border police during a demonstration against the wall.

Zakaria MaHmud Salem, age 28, from Beit Ijza was killed in Beit Ijza on February 26, 2004 by live ammunition shot at him by border police during a demonstration against the wall.

Abdal Rahman Abu Eid, age 62, from Bidu was killed in Bidu on February 26, 2004 from a heart attack after his house was tear gassed.

Mohammad Daud Badwan, age 21, from Bidu was shot by border police snipers during a demonstration in Biddu on March 26, 2004 and died April 3, 2004.

Diaa Abdel Karim Abu Eid, age 24, from Bidu was killed in Bidu by live ammunition shot at him during a demonstration against the wall on April 4, 2004.

Hussain mahmud Awwad Aliyan, age 17, from Beitunia but originally from Budrus, was killed in Beitunia on April 16, 2004 at a demonstration against the wall, after live ammunition was shot at demonstrators.

Islam Hashem Rizik Zhahran, age 14, from Deir Abu Mashal was shot with a rubber coated metal bullet in Deir Anu Mashal on April 18, 2004 and died April 28, 2004.

Alaa Mohammad Abdel Rahman Khalil, age 14, from Betunia was killed in Betunia February 15, 2005 by live ammunition shot by a security guard while throwing stones at a wall security jeep.

Jamal Jaber Ibrahim Assi, age 15, from Beit Likya was killed in Beit Likya on May 4, 2005 by live ammunition shot in his pelvis while throwing stones in a demonstration against the wall.

Odai Mofeed Mahmud Assi, age 14, from Beit Likya was killed in Beit Likya on May 4, 2005 by live ammunition shot in his chest while throwing stones in a demonstration against the wall.

Mahayub Nimer Assi, age 15, from Beit Likya was killed in Beit Likya on June 8, 2005 by live ammunition shot by a security guard while he was at his family’s orchards, about 200 meters from the bulldozers parking lot.

It is the hope of activists, as we continue our protests and demonstrations, that these lives will not have been lost in vain. It is in their memory that we protest tomorrow and every day thereafter.