Israel's economy leaving Palestinians far behind

[pelsar]

http://www.palestinemonitor.org/nueva_web/updates_news/news/economy_israel.htm

At a time when the Palestinian West Bank and Gaza are teetering on the brink of a collapse, Israeli growth - 6.6 percent GDP rise in the first quarter of 2006 - has returned to the torrid pace set before the outbreak of the Palestinian uprising.

It's also a recognition of a growing separation between the Israeli and Palestinian economies - and Israel's receding fear of attacks.

Tourists are filling up hotels. Private spending jumped 10.3 percent in the first three months of the year and the real estate market is heating up. Earlier this month, US investment guru Warren Buffet announced a $4 billion buyout of an Israeli metal tool cutting manufacturer, the biggest foreign investment in Israel.
__________________________

gaza 2006, Palestinians self rule....so far has resulted in chaos, internal violence, external attempts to kill israelis, self destruction of their greenhouses (exports, jobs etc).....

not taking advantage of the access to the world via the egyptian/Palestinian border....

as the article states:

Experts say that the widening economic disparity could undermine the long-term prospect for peaceful relations between Israelis and Palestinians.

but it up to the Palestinians to take the responsibility of their society in their own hands and do something about it.....and nobody elses. A good start might be their own internal security in gaza after that stop with the missles....and perhaps then they can concentrate on their economy

[Kagemusha]

1. Man, you say that like Israel had absolutely nothing to do with it.

(Re: Not taking advantage of access to the world. Yeah, sealing the territories up helps. Really it does.)

Not that I'm completely without sympathy but, you act like the Palestinians have self-rule and they are blissfully unaffected by anything Israel does so everything that happens is 100% their fault. That's not accurate.

[Tempest]

2. Israel withholds taxes from Palestinians

Israel announced Wednesday it was withholding payment of $55 million in taxes to the Palestinian Authority, since it is now run by the militant group Hamas.

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's spokesman Ranaan Gissin told the BBC that the monthly payment of taxes and customs duties could not be paid to the newly elected Hamas, which Israel considers a terrorist group.

In response, Palestinian Economy Minister Mazen Sunnuqrut described the move as an irresponsible and grave decision.

An editorial in Jerusalem's Ha'aretz newspaper criticized Israel's move: "First, quite simply, this is not our money, it is theirs.

"Second, starving Palestinians will not make our lives more secure. Accordingly, we should also continue to supply electricity and water, as long as they are paid for.

And third, this tax money is not the same as Western and other aid funds, which constitute philanthropy.

http://feeds.bignewsnetwork.com/?sid=af34545e7076f7b4

[anewdeal]

35. they have every right to

the agreement Israel made with Palestine to collect taxes for them came with the condition that Palestine recognize Israel. Palestine (Hamas) renegged on this contract. So there is no obligation for Israel to hold up their end of the bargain.

[wordpix]

51. it then appears that Israel & Palestinians must renegotiate their deal

[pelsar]

3. Gaza....

is precisely where they have self rule...the westbank is different story.....The point of the gaza is that it requires a change in the mindset. Israel does not control the gaza/palestenain border...its up to the palestenians to make the best of that.

its hardly unheard of for a society to not be able to trade with its neighbors...they still have to take their situation and take advantage of what they can...and there is nothing other than themselves that is stopping them.

Whether israel trades or doesnt trade, with gaza, whether they have open borders or not is hardly something the palestenians of gaza can depend upon, nor should they....its time to move on and look south toward egypt.

[Kagemusha]

4. I won't argue with someone using passive language.

Gaza is not self-sufficient.

Duh.

If Israel doesn't trade at all, the Gazans will starve.

Duh.

Your answer seems to be, they should move to Egypt.

Please, don't be so surprised when the world disagrees.

[pelsar]

5. not israels responsability....

I'm not saying they should move to Egypt...not at all...i'm saying they have to start working on their economy. Gaza has good farmland, good weather, and water for crops....thats a place to start.

Egypt can offer them all they need...as can their brethren in saudi arabia, etc. (or are you saying that for some reason they cant?....only israel can?...perhaps a list why that is would be inorder?

When israel was established it was surrouned by countries that boycotted it....Gaza at least has a direct land access to egypt.....

[Kagemusha]

6. Since you insist...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1782436,00.html

"But as dramatic as the scenes of fighting are, the bulk of Gazans will tell you their real problems are economic. When Israel pulled out in September, it said it wanted a free and prosperous Gaza. What the Palestinians have got instead are piles of rotting fruit once destined for European tables amid an Israeli blockade that has quashed attempts to build a flourishing agricultural trade and bankrupted businesses. With it has come a freezing of about $1bn in annual aid by the EU and US until Hamas meets demands for it to recognise Israel and renounce violence."

"The Palestinians had hoped to begin standing on their own feet. After the Israeli withdrawal, they took over the settlers' greenhouses with the promise of a flourishing export trade in fruit and vegetables that would create thousands of jobs and bring in tens of millions of dollars in revenues. They planted tomatoes and peppers, melons and strawberries, for harvest in January. This week, the greenhouses were finally closed, driven out of business by an Israeli economic blockade tightened after Hamas won the election."

"Salim Abu Safiya is in charge of Gaza's borders for the Palestinian Authority working from an office near the main cargo crossing at Karni, with shells dropping periodically not far away. "If you add up all the hours that Karni has been open since the beginning of the year, it amounts to just three weeks," he says. "This is three or four hours a day and sometimes it's closed for weeks. Karni has the capacity to handle about 700 lorries a day. Now, if it is open, it handles only about 50."

On the day we speak, Karni is open for a little more than three hours for imports. Exports haven't been allowed in months. "Israel sends us what they want to send us, not what we need," he says. "They are sending fruit, construction material, frozen food, so Israel can save its face and not let us starve." What they need instead is medicine, tampons, washing powder, milk and baby formula."

---

If Israel won't let the Palestinians trade effectively with everyone else, your protestations about the Palestinians needing to work on their economy are hollow. There is a large difference between a boycott and a blockade (and blockades don't have to be absolute 100% to be a) blockades, and b) highly ruinous).

[pelsar]

7. EGYPT EGYPT EGYPT.....

BIG BIG country to the south of GAZA....a country which does what it wants

they have Ports and roads to take fresh food to europe...and since israel has no say over what happens between egypt and gaza, perhaps you can explain how this "bockade thing works?



not only that, but i am sure if the arabs in the neighboring countries would buy palestenian exports to help them along.

lets say it again:

EGYPT.....the gateway to europe.

[Spinoza]

9. You keep tr;ying

but obviously some people just cannot accept that Gaza shares a border with Egypt. One can only specuate on the causes of this amazing 'blindness'. It is difficult to avoid the feeling that if this basic geographic fact was acknowleged it would be much more difficult to blame Israel for the current mess in Gaza. Hence a 'see no Egypt, 'hear no Egypt', 'smell no Egypt' attitude.

[pelsar]

10. i just dont get it......

i really dont......it is a basic geographical fact....yet so many cannot even bring themselves to admit it....why is that?....the only reason i can think of is that it endangers the "belief"....and like all beliefs if some facts interfer, then they either must be ignored or interpreted differently.

now its pretty hard to interpret the gaza/egyptian border as being anything other than a border...and the rafah crossing is a physical crossing with a road..so that leaves "ignoring it", pretending it doesnt exist. (though i had some posters here attempt to explain to me why the rafah road cant take trucks...until i acutally found a picture of trucks on the road....)

i guess the "blame israel" religion also has its share of fanatics...and nothing gets in the way of those beliefs......especially simple things like borders and facts....(reminds me of the settlers, they too dont see borders)

[Kagemusha]

12. Since you decided to write as an adult this time...

Let's get this out of the way first.

There is a gaza/egyptian border. There is a rafah crossing with a road.

Whoever you have a problem with for denying these things, it's not me, and I had no idea where you got this idea from.

Beyond that, I really don't know about it. I don't know what forces Israel has and where, I don't know why these Palestinian farmers in these articles can't take their goods to Egypt, I just don't know. I know that even if Israel is letting arms and goods pass freely into Gaza (is it?..) from Egypt that it has lots of roadblocks inside Gaza itself.

But if I may make one assertion...

Israel borders Gaza too.

Just in case anyone was inclined to forget, or ignore the fact...!

[pelsar]

13. so if you dont know....

then why this statement?

If Israel won't let the Palestinians trade effectively with everyone else...that implys rather bluntly that israel controls the egyptian/palestenian border.

because yes it is you who is denying the gaza/palestenian border


if you dont know..then perhaps instead of blaming israel, it would be a bit wiser to inquire?..or is the default position: israel is to blame?
__________

lets start with that so as to not confuse the issues too much.

(and if you dont know: israel does not control the egyptian/palestenian border....), but i am still curious as to why the statement in the first place?

[pelsar]

15. ok...i'll answer..since you dont know.....

and after perhaps you can explain why its israels fault if you dont know?..

israel has no forces in gaza, nor does Egypt, no roadblocks, no patrols NOTHING!. a fence surrounds the border on the israeli side with watchtowers and patrols on the outside.

The northern entrance, Erez, is mainly for VIPs entering and exiting. Used to be lots of israeli factories there where the Palestinians worked, but they were constantly attacked by Palestinians, so they eventually they all left and the industrial areas is now closed.

the eastern entrances -2, karmi is the big one for importing and exporting. Very sophisticated set up for moving trucks, checking them, taxes etc.
been attacked several times by Palestinians. When israel was responsible for the Palestinians it was kept open, since israel left, the responsibility is no longer there, and there is no reason to risk israeli lives....if the Palestinians can protect it, it can be opened.

there is a smaller one for building materials.

The Egyptian/gaza border is completely in the hands of the Palestinians and the egyptians, no israeli has any say over that border, nor are any israelis there. There is single asphalt road. The border itself is mainly divided by a small bard wire fence, easy to walk over, though the egyptians have been know to shoot at times.

tunnels under the border are common and a big business for the Palestinians...though the egyptians have been known to execute those who guard the entrance to the tunnels on the egyptian side.
_______

if you want to know why the egyptians are not helping the palestenains with food, medicine etc....its politics. They dont want the headache and the responsibility of transferring materials to/from gaza, they dont want to be blamed for the kassams, katushas that fly in to israel....

[Kagemusha]

16. You totally missed where I said I'm not without sympathy I think.

It's not like I want Israelis to get blown up. Hell no. And it seems that I was out of date on the roadblocks thing. But you're arguing with yourself more than me at this point anyway, for the simple reason that you're obsessed with my saying it's all Israel's fault (which, if it needs pointing out, I didn't say at all).

Your point is that it's NONE of Israel's fault, at all, ever. I'll focus on Karmi since it was the one mentioned in that Guardian article. Your point is that since the Palestinians aren't protecting it to Israel's satisfaction, it can be left closed (though you don't bother to mention by whom because your language is so passive) for all time. If the Palestinians starve, then they can take it up with themselves. Israel has no role, even though um, Israel's the one keeping the entrance closed.

And I'm saying you're off base by magically rubbing Israel out of the equation.

Damn right the Palestinians should do more but... your acting like Egypt exists and Israel doesn't is insulting to basic intelligence.

[pelsar]

17. its called responsability.....

israel is simply no longer responsable for the welfare of the inhabitants of gaza......Karmi is on the israeli side of the border, why should israel risk lsraeli lives for the palestenians if they cant even do such a basic thing such as protect it?

and yes if they cant protect it to "israels satisfaction"....because israel is responsable for the israeli lives that would be lost if they dont...you write as if that is an evil thing.....israel making sure its citizens arent killed

Israels fault again?
If the Palestinians starve, then they can take it up with themselves. Israel has no role, even though um, Israel's the one keeping the entrance closed.

there you go again....implying that with karmi closed the palestenians will starve...did you all of a sudden forget the alternative?...i believe that would be an good example of "insulting basic intelligence.....the alternative is called EGYPT, hence if the palestenains are starving, it would mean Egypt is playing a major role in that. So perhaps your sentance should be rewritten to include Egypt?

jordan, egypt, lebanon, syria were all closed off to israel for most of its existance....so according to your logic, any shortage of anything in israel would be "there fault"....that is being consistant

[Kagemusha]

18. The Arab states boycotted, but they never had a blockade.

That was my simple point earlier. If Israel wanted to divest itself of all responsibility, oh, let's see... what could it do...

a) Give the Palestinians a real state
b) Hand the territories to Egypt and let Egypt take responsibility

Come on, we both know neither's gonna happen. More to the point, don't insult my intelligence by pretending you don't know Israel retains levers of control which it can use to mess up Gaza. Israel is not, and will not become, stupid enough to give up full control. Your argument is that Israel is not responsible whatsoever, knowing that Israel does have a large measure of control. Control without responsibility? That makes good PR, but it's not moral or logical.

When I find more up to date information about the Egyptian/Gaza border you may hear from me again. I'm not sure I care that much. Our little discussion isn't changing the grim and ever grimmer facts on the ground.

[pelsar]

23. israeli control of gaza

Israel to date: controls Gazas air space and 3/4 of its borders (very similar to what israels situation in 48). Israel has the military ability to enter gaza at will, as it does to enter jordan, lebanon, syria and egypt....that ability is similar to the US ability to enter Canada, Mexico at will...

oh and israeli electricity, supplies gaza, that would be the plant that some katushays and kassams are now landing nearby-perhaps they'll "get lucky" and hit the transformers so people can them blame israel for "turning it off" (sounds about right doesnt it?)

so? What has that ability got to do with the Palestinians making an economy that works? providing internal security for its own?....absolutly nothing. The responsibility is soley that of the Palestinians. Israel CAN help, just as EGYPT can.

Our discussion is enlightening for me...I will give you some credit however, unlike many here, the additional info i have provided, facts on the ground, has least caused a reaction on your part....the IFS (israeli fault syndrome) remains strong however, as your still trying very hard to blame israel for gazas problems.

so get additional info...what will be most interesting is if there will be a change of opinion....new additional info should do that, at least among the non religious, for the religious it only reinforces the belief, whatever the info.

[Spinoza]

19. Double Standards

"if you want to know why the egyptians are not helping the palestenains with food, medicine etc....its politics. They dont want the headache and the responsibility of transferring materials to/from gaza, they dont want to be blamed for the kassams, katushas that fly in to israel...."

The double standard applied against Israel is self-evident. Noone is screaming at Egypt (not even the Palestinians apparently) for this situation. No one realistically expects Egypt to act otherwise. On the other hand, Israel....

Its kind of on a par with the Jordanian and Egyptian occupations of Palestine from 1949-1967 barely creating a peep of protest from the Palestinians or anyone else whereas Israel's occupation is intolerable even though Jordan killed more Palestinans in one month (September, 1970) in 'Black September' than Israel has killed in almost 40 years of desperate conflict and struggle.

Pelsar, do Israelis understand and realize just how badly they are being stigmatized in the West? Do they know they have become the new South Africa, a symbol of evil, for millions of people who think of themselves as liberals and progressives?

[Kagemusha]

20. Two brief comments

a) Black September was on Jordanian territory.
b) I wonder if your figures include the Lebanon conflict.

Either way, particularly in the last several weeks, Egypt has been a black mark on the Middle East for its anti-civil rights actions. I have no idea what to realistically expect from them for improving the lot of Palestinians - logic and reality suggest Israel has far more practical ability to, in the vernacular, make their lives suck or not - but Egypt has, absolutely, been one hell of a bad member of the family of nations of late. Egypt should be criticized far more than it is. I suppose that's a third comment..

[pelsar]

22. I'm being educated here....

and I admit to being fascinated by it:...case in point the "blockade" of Gaza. Its incredible to me, unbelievable....perhaps speachless is better. Its so blantant the "Israel fault syndrom"....up to the point where a geographical fact is totally ignored. And more so Even when its is admited....israel STILL remains the guilty party: (thats what i liked about the gaza withdrawl, it made it so obvious, removed the "gray area")

I have no idea what to realistically expect from them for improving the lot of Palestinians - logic and reality suggest Israel has far more practical ability to,

that above statement? I have a hard time writing the obvious....the answer is: Egypt can open the gates at rafah and let in food and medicine*.....yet, why do I have to even write it?...is israeli logic so "off base" or is logic, physical facts irrelevant when it involves israel?

thats what i've learned here:...i've decided its like a religion, definitions are revised to describe israel (non violence includes throwing and slinging rocks) genocide now defines a gun battle, masscre is a constant description of the IDF etc)...

like all religious, for the believer, mere facts are not enough to change the belief....thats what i've learned about so many "liberals and progressives"....they're simply religious, fanatically religious.

_____________________________________________
*dont know if you know this, but months ago with karmi closed israel offered to send the materials to egypt via karen shalom crossing(outside of gaza) and from there to rafah to gaza....the palestenains turned it down. However....Some stuff was sent:


Ha'aretz 3/22/2006
Israel on Wednesday opened a second crossing into the Gaza Strip, following international pressure to alleviate a shortage of staples and relief supplies in the Strip. Kerem Shalom was opened to allow humanitarian aid, mostly food and drugs, from Egypt into Gaza, Israeli and Palestinian border authorities said. A total of 180 Egyptian trucks were expected to enter Gaza Wednesday. The first one, carrying flower, passed through the crossing at 11:15. IDF officials said that Palestinians would also be able to send exports through Kerem Shalom on Wednesday, but border officials did not immediately confirm this. On Tuesday, a total of 131 trucks passed through the main Karni crossing into the Strip.

hmmm...if 131 trucks can enter i guess 1,000 probably can as well...nah, that must be my israeli logic working again.

[Kagemusha]

24. Here's my non-Israeli logic working:

Israel opened a second crossing into the Gaza Strip, through which a total of 180 Egyptian trucks were expected to enter Gaza (edit) on 3/22 of this year.

That means that prior to this, the second crossing was closed.

...Wait a minute, if Gaza controls the border to Egypt, what's Israel doing opening a crossing? ...Enlighten me. My non-Israeli logic can't grasp this.

[pelsar]

25. wrong info...

your "non israeli logic"..is because your didnt understand:

karen shalom is road from israel to egypt....Not gaza, not within gaza, east of gaza. The trucks went from israel south to egypt turned west traveled to south of gaza and then north and entered via rafah

got it?


There are other crossings as well, less formal however they have no security checks like karmi and hence are not used. Its not a physical problem of bringing in supplies its a security one. Israel is keeping the palestenains at "arms length", limiting the distance to that of "car bomb"

and not letting trucks from gaza enter israel in return (returning empty with a bomb.....)

[Kagemusha]

26. Then I'm not understanding something else.

You're saying the Egyptian border has no security from Israel at all, and Karmi is another crossing from Israel with security, that isn't being used much because Israel sees opening it as a security threat, economic damage to Gaza be damned. So...

What IS the problem with Palestinians using the passage to Egypt? This is economics, not politics. Businessmen aren't going to starve because Israel won't open its passages - can't call them borders I take it - while an opening to Egypt remains open. Aid groups are apparently sending aid in via Israel to the territories rather than through Egypt.

So um.. why?

I'm not a hack with any beef against Israel, except criticizing where criticism is objectively deserved by the facts. Why can't Gaza trade with the EU via Egypt? I know there's the Sinai between most of Egypt and Gaza but, I wouldn't know anything of the geographical difficulties, the costs involved, any of that. Besides, in the case of the aid groups, I don't understand it. Why send only through Israel if Israel isn't, say, making them submit aid only through it? I feel like there's a piece of the story I am not getting here.

And I'm not prejudicing anything because I have *no* idea what Egypt's doing to mess this all up. Obviously whatever it's doing is quieter and/or less reported on.

[pelsar]

27. Kagemusha...what i know.....

The opening to Egypt (rafah)...

Sinai is a mixed environment with bedouin tribes in the larger open areas and small cities and resorts along the edges (and ports). The Egyptian economy has a heavy interest in tourism and the sinai is a large part of that.

The egyptian/israeli border is considered a quiet border...mostly its has smuggling of drugs and women ("prostitutes to be" into Israel from Russia, africa via Egypt.

Karmi was developed as a sophisticated truck entry/exit border crossing where the israeli truck pass along their good to Palestinians trucks (back to back) with "sterile areas" for security reasons. The idea being that no Palestinian truck enters israel with a bomb attached and no suicide bombers or suicide drivers (all have happened in the past). The result of that security is the the Palestinians who want to kill israelis at best can only attack karmi from the outside (tried) or tunnel under (done successfully at other places).

thats the backdrop.

Egypt doesnt want the headache of the security problem that comes with importing and exporting into Gaza...and yes, the Palestinian be damned. Thats why so little is allowed to enter via Rafah. They've already had several bombings in the sinai they certainly don't need to open up another section of their border that would be a security risk.

Economically its not a problem to export to europe and before the Palestinians destroyed the greenhouses they had an established market.

The egyptians have a port that can handle veggies just south of Gaza (el arish) so its not a physical problem, its politics and security. In case you didn't notice none of the arab countries even "like the palestenians"...They're kept in camps in lebanon with restrictive laws of what they can and cannot do, same is true for egypt, kuwait etc. In terms of the "social pecking order" within the arab world, they are on the bottom, neither wanted nor trusted.

and thats why the Egyptian border is not being used. The Palestinians are building their own port, but that will take some time.

I have no problem with legit criticism of israel and definitely blame israel for its part in not helping the Palestinian hospitals with their running out of supplies....even if egypt could easily solve the problem...but it seems to me rather absurd to blame israel while ignoring egypt.

[Kagemusha]

29. Notwithstanding I think it just as absurd to blame Egypt and ignore Israel

if what you're saying is that Egypt is blocking Palestinian goods from being exported into Egypt for re-exportation, you could've said that a lot sooner. Rafah, that's the name of the crossing into Egypt? Ok. I'll research that when I have the time.

I remember the greenhouse story and it's um, definitely not all the greenhouses in Gaza I take it. Not good either way.

Anyway...

It sounds like we're both right and Egypt and Israel are working together to blockade Gaza. I don't think that's any better. Not one tiny little bit.

[pelsar]

30. its called the double standard.....

whereas israel stops the goods the papers are full of reports of the "crises" (theres actually a shortage of medical equipment, and money, but not food)...just your posts and others seem to have no idea that Egypt could easily have brought in the goods...yet Egypt is rarely mentioned if at all.

The expectations are different for israel and for egypt...hence the double standard. But Egypt and israel dont really work "together"....in this case the reactions are similar but for dissimaler reasons:

israel has viable security worries as karmi has been attacked in the past as well as recently. For the Egyptians its more of reducing a potential threat.


in the end israel will "fold".

as far as the greenhouses, i'm not sure any are left.... and Rafah has a blog:

http://rafahpundits.com/ images too

[Kagemusha]

31. Sir, blaming Israel is not the darn point. It simply is not.

It is far more important to me that the Palestinians are suffering. I do not give a damn about the double standard. Yes, I'm aware from the most recent newspaper articles that food is not in short supply yet; Israel has seen to that, though it has also seen that money to pay for food is in short supply. But before you continue your habit of talking past people and playing to the gallery, please try to understand that even if the double standard is rooted out and ended, Israel will STILL be considered to bear 50% of the responsibility for the Palestinians' situation, if not more, because Gaza is still, as far as everyone is concerned, Israeli occupied territory, with some justification because of Israel's continued levers of control and ability and preparedness to raid at will.

I don't buy that just because Israel shouldn't be considered to bear 100% of the responsibility that this logically means it should bear 0% because it's all someone else's fault.

Also, to be perfectly blunt, if the issue is between one Israeli possibly dying to keep the a few crossings open and millions of people enduring crippling hardship, don't be surprised if the world doesn't think one Israeli life is worth quite that much. But that is an issue for another day.

Thanks for the link.

[pelsar]

32. "everyone is concerned"...

so?....why should i be concerned that "everyone believes gaza is israeli occupied territory"..its not. Lots of people believe lots of things....doesnt mean its true, and when its not true, there is no reason for me to believe it....just because "lots of people believe it"....I dont.

so..your saying that its still occupied because:
Israel's continued levers of control and ability and preparedness to raid at will.

Is this definition limited to israel or is it a standard definition i can apply to other countries?.....if it is, then i can easily provide a list of countries that are now occupied, even though the "world doesnt think so"...thats more of an excuse to call gaza occupied and then israel remains responsble.


and to be blunt: we know that the world thinks "less of the israeli life"...trouble is that "israeli life is mine, or my kids, etc, hence we tend to be a bit more protective of "our own.

as far as the palestenians suffering, were as the westbank is a different story, gaza bears the responsbility of the palestenian society. And that lack of of it, and the willingness of others to risk my life for their lack of control doesnt go so well with me. Why should i have to risk my life to check palestenian trucks to make sure they dont have bombs in order to deliver the palestenians food?.....seems to me if they want to deliver food via israel the least they can do is make sure (yes to our standards) that they dont blow up the system, israel is doing the palestenains a favor by letting them deliver via israel, if not they can talk to the egyptians. (who really dont give a shit)

whos fault is it? bottom line?....the palestenians, societies are responsable for their own actions. And societies/groups/individuals who dont take responsability are preparing the ground for a failed society: First thing we teach our kids is to take responsability for what they do....same holds true for groups and societies. The palestenians have two options, its not really a good idea to "bite the hand that feeds you" but thats what it is when the kassams fly over to israel, when they attack karmi and cant seem to protect it.

and thats our bottom line and "blaming israel" is precisly the point.

[Kagemusha]

33. Uh, so you want sympathy for just not giving a damn.

And your argument is Egypt doesn't give a damn either and the Palestinians don't give a damn about themselves so why SHOULD anyone give a damn about them.

...Look.

Israel IS the hand that's feeding the Palestinians, and whether or not the Palestinians are biting or not, Israel has the choice of offering food or taking it away. If the Palestinian "dog" starves, you can complain all you want about the dog sneering at you after you've kicked it and how the dog didn't deserve your food anymore, and your cries will fall on deaf ears. You are in control. Control creates responsibility. If you intend to use food as a carrot and lack of food as a stick, what happens to your abused pet is your responsibility, damnit.

I do not want to hear about how it's not your fault because your neighbor (Egypt) isn't feeding your dog for you or isn't kicking your dog enough for you to keep it in line. I'm through with that. You want to complain about the neighbor not taking care of your dog? Tough. You're the one playing God by offering the food in the first place. If you think that the community (the rest of the world) is just fine with your then turning around and cutting the food off and having the dog starve to death, and will accept your saying, "This isn't wasn't my dog in the first place," tough. You're the one who took over the property the dog came with in the first place.

I'll leave it at that. This is tiring.

[pelsar]

34. interesting arguement...but its your original one...

that gaza and the palestenains are israels responsability........

Your original arguement was that only israel is the source of the problem, since israel controlled gaza...after you learned that israel does not control gaza and that egypt can solve the problem, that you decided is now irrelevant.....you've now decided that Gaza never the less is an israeli problem and only an israeli problem...for the Israelis are "in control"

perhaps you would like to explain how the israelis are "in control of gaza" and the egyptians have a "lesser control"....Shall i remind you that, no israeli soldier is in gaza?..or is that irrelevant since israel can invade gaza at will...as can the egyptians (who controlled gaza from 48-67)

your argument that israel is responsable simply makes no logical sense: two borders either one can solve the problem, and only one is being targeted by the palestenains....the second one is considered a safer one, yet it is the more dangerous one that you claim Must remain open.

This is what usually happens here.....israel must be blaimed, logic, facts on the ground, all irrelevant.....not much of a surprise.

[Spinoza]

37. Pelsar, you are performing an invaluable service

by showing conclusively, irrefutably, that the desire by so many to believe Israel is-essentially-a villian, infact in a metaphysical sense THE villain, transcends history, logic, facts, fairness, geography, compassion, common sense. You should think about publishing (assuming copyright laws would legally permit you to do so) some of the incredible dialogues you are engaging in. I suspect they would be a real eye-opener to many. Whats really chilling is that the viewpoints expressed on DU vis-a-vis Israel's essential perfidy (perhaps due to site restrictions on content) are among the mildest seen on 'progressive' web sites.

[Kagemusha]

38. EGYPT IS EVIL. And shame to any nation descending to its level.

EGYPT IS EVIL. EGYPT IS EVIL. EGYPT IS EVIL. SHOUT IT FROM THE ROOFTOPS. EGYPT IS EVIL. Egypt is hurting the Palestinians. Egypt could do much more good in the world and chooses not to. EGYPT IS EVIL!

So why SHOULD Israel behave any better? Why SHOULD Israel lift one finger for the Palestinians? If Egypt wants to let the Palestinians wallow in mud and dirt forever, if the Palestinians will not kiss and lick the shoes of its betters in Israel, why should Israel do one single thing for them?

EGYPT IS EVIL.

So I admit it...

I was wrong to expect better from Israel.

I hope everyone's satisfied now.

EGYPT IS EVIL!

[barb162]

43. Hyperbole aside

the facts are that the Palestinians killed and injured a few Egyptian soldiers a few days after the Israelis left Gaza, starting ramming the Egyptian wall and breaking through in a few places around the same time and last week or so, the story was out that the training of the suiciders in the last Egyptian bombing were trained and financed by Palestinians. There's also a fair amount of arms smuggling from Egypt into Gaza.

[Violet_Crumble]

48. No, he's not....

Sorry, but all that's coming across is that most, if not all criticism of Israel is seen as *Evil Israel* while the same folk who see things that way don't seem to see their very one-sided and relentless criticism of the Palestinians as *Evil Palestinians*. So my question is why is it okay to criticise one lot and not the other?

Violet...

[barb162]

39. Israel has NO roadblocks inside Gaza itself

And I wonder where you get this stuff about roadblocks

[Kagemusha]

40. I apparently made a mistake.

Apparently that's against I/P rules or something. Sorry. I'm not a regular poster. Doubt I'll become one.

[barb162]

41. Just about everyone makes mistakes here

No problema

[Kagemusha]

42. Doesn't help that it's often a fluid situation over there.

I'm to the point that I just want to comment when I know something solid. And, I am genuinely concerned about slanted or incomplete reporting. It's just not something I can solve all by my lonesome.

[barb162]

44. Don't worry about it!

The situation is very fluid

[sabbat hunter]

50. israel has a right

to control its borders. if they dont want to allow people or produce to come in from gaza or any other country, that is their right.


the palestinians living in gaza can ship their produce thru egypt to the south. if egypt will not allow that produce to go thru, then blame the egyptians.

[Kagemusha]

11. You did not seriously write that. I don't accept that you did.

That's being a child and I will not dignify that with a civilized response.

[pelsar]

14. childish response?

sometimes when basic facts that any kid in 7th grade geography class can understand, one has to go down to that level:

There is a large difference between a boycott and a blockade

and that same kid might wonder how can gaza be "blockaded" when it has a complete border with egypt....anyone claiming such a thing either doesnt understand the border between egypt and gaza, doesnt know but assumes its israels fault whatever the palestenain problem (a childish knee jerk response: its his fault!)...or simply cant read a map

none of the above are relevant to an intelligent conversation on gazas border issues....

[Coastie for Truth]

8. Please disagree with me!

(Note: My son is a partner in a fancy-schmancy Si Valley "venture law" law firm, and I have been involved in "high tech start ups.")

The threats of boycotts and divestments in Israeli companies have materially backfired. The "war risk" burden on ROI is carried more heavily by Palestinian entrepreneurs, and less so by Israeli entrepreneurs. The Palestinian entrepreneur can not get the venture funding it needs - and the Palestinian entrepreneur actually does have the ideas and the business plans, too! But the boycott/divestment threats are killing them - the Palestinian entrepreneurs are going to Cairo and Los Angeles.

You do not need an MBA from Stanford or Haas to know that.

[kayecy]

21. Nope - can't disagree with you - what is to be done about it?

Lets try and be constuctive. Occupied countries don't get investment. How do we stop the occupation?

[Coastie for Truth]

28. They don't

Daimler Benz AG
Volkswagenwerk GMBH
Rolleiwerke
Zeiss-Ikon AG
Honda KK (Started during the occupation)
Toyota Jidosha
Nippon Optical (Nikon)
JVC (Started during the Occupation)

and many many more in Germany and Japan.

The real issue - the Palestinian entrepreneurs are in Cairo and Los Angeles and Fremont with their businesses and employees and investors.

[Tom Joad]

36. Gaza's Future. Israel's responsibility. war, occupation has taken its

Toll.
Gaza's Future. by Sara Roy
Last April President Bush said that Israel's withdrawal from Gaza would allow the establishment of 'a democratic state in the Gaza' and open the door for democracy in the Middle East. The columnist Thomas Friedman was more explicit, arguing that 'the issue for Palestinians is no longer about how they resist the Israeli occupation in Gaza, but whether they build a decent mini-state there - a Dubai on the Mediterranean. Because if they do, it will fundamentally reshape the Israeli debate about whether the Palestinians can be handed most of the West Bank.'

Embedded in these statements is the assumption that Palestinians will be free to build their own democracy....

According to the World Bank, Palestinians are currently experiencing the worst economic depression in modern history, caused primarily by the long-standing Israeli restrictions that have dramatically reduced Gaza's levels of trade and virtually cut off its labour force from their jobs inside Israel. This has resulted in unprecedented levels of unemployment of 35 to 40 per cent. Some 65 to 75 per cent of Gazans are impoverished (compared to 30 per cent in 2000); many are hungry.

Since 2000, the economy of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank has lost a potential income of approximately $6.4 billion and suffered $3.5 billion worth of physical damage at the hands of the Israeli army. This means, according to the UN Conference on Trade and Development, that the 'occupied Palestinian territory has lost at least one fifth of its economic base over the last four years as a consequence of war and occupation.' Yet the authors of the Plan are confident that 'the process of disengagement will serve to dispel claims regarding Israel's responsibility for the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip.' They assume, in other words, that Gaza's suffering is a recent phenomenon borne of the last five years of intifada, and that the return of the land taken up by military installations and settlements - anywhere from 15 to 30 per cent of the territory - and the removal of 9000 Israeli settlers will soon redress the situation. Israel's primary role in creating Palestine's misery and decline since it occupied the West Bank and Gaza in 1967 is expunged from the narrative.

There is no doubt that the destruction wrought by Israel over the last five years - the demolition of homes (some 4600 between 2000 and 2004), schools, roads, factories, workshops, hospitals, mosques and greenhouses, the razing of agricultural fields, the uprooting of trees, the confinement of the population and the denial of access to education and health services as a consequence of Israeli roadblocks and checkpoints - has been ruinous for Palestinians, especially those in the Gaza Strip. But one need only look at the economy of Gaza on the eve of the uprising to realise that the devastation is not recent. By the time the second intifada broke out, Israel's closure policy had been in force for seven years, leading to unprecedented levels of unemployment and poverty (which would soon be surpassed). Yet the closure policy proved so destructive only because the thirty-year process of integrating Gaza's economy into Israel's had made the local economy deeply dependent. As a result, when the border was closed in 1993, self-sustainment was no longer possible - the means weren't there. Decades of expropriation and deinstitutionalisation had long ago robbed Palestine of its potential for development, ensuring that no viable economic (and hence political) structure could emerge.
Much More:
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=107&ItemID=10182

[barb162]

45. Gaza looters destroy Palestine Authority property

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Gaza_looters_destroy_Palestine_Authority_property
September 17, 2005


"Frenzied destruction of empty Jewish settlements in Gaza by Palestinian looters have marred plans for exploiting those facilities to create much needed jobs for the area.
SNIP

The facilities were purchased by a group of Jewish-American donors and given to the Palestinian government to encourage economic development. It was initially anticipated over four thousand Palestinians could be given work at the greenhouses, however all offers have been suspended prior to the damage being assessed and repairs arranged."

Tom, how do investors get attracted to the area when there are constant stories about Palestinian factional fighting, gangs running the streets, rocket attacks, etc.

[Tom Joad]

46. Palestinians produced more than 12,000 tons of produce this season.

Nothing compares to the bombing, bulldozing, killing, over decades by the Occupation forces.
The green houses that were damaged were later repaired.

But during the height of the harvest, from January until now, Israel frequently closed the main cargo crossing between Israel and the Gaza Strip.

The result of Karni's closure is that only 1,500 tons of produce made it out of Gaza during this season.

The results? A continuation of the "diet" arranged for Palestinians this year by the Sharon/Olmert/Bush regimes.

The biggest looters are the folks sitting in nice air-conditioned offices in Jerusalem.

[pelsar]

47. poor palestenains and their supporters...

cant even read a map.....theres this really big border down south with a exit to EGYPT

so what are the facts here? or are they irrelevant since they question the "IFS" religion (israel fault syndrom)

small problem with religious fanatics.....facts never bother them

[Coastie for Truth]

49. Brain drain to Egypt, US -- and lack of entrepreneurial investment

is a bigger problem.

Continuous Business Process Management software was developed by Palestinian and Egyptian software developers working in Egypt with US financing. The specific contribution of the Palestinian-Egyptian developers was the capability for the customer to design, deploy, monitor and improve business processes. The Palestinian-Egyptian team used a Unified Modeling Language that allows enterprises to transform the necessary business content to IT content, and provides for the transformation of IT content to business content.

Palestinians - in Egypt - with US money.

No threats. No unconditional demands.

[Violet_Crumble]

52. I also demand to know why Gaza isn't yet a flourishing democracy!!

gaza 2006, Palestinians self rule....so far has resulted in chaos, internal violence, external attempts to kill israelis, self destruction of their greenhouses (exports, jobs etc).....

<snip>

but it up to the Palestinians to take the responsibility of their society in their own hands and do something about it.....and nobody elses. A good start might be their own internal security in gaza after that stop with the missles....and perhaps then they can concentrate on their economy.

Yes, and while we're at it, let's sit around and tell the East Timorese that after around 5 years of self rule, it's long been up to them to take the responsibility of their society in their own hands and do something about it! Better yet, with all the violence going on there right now, let's even suggest that they'd be better off under Indonesian occupation. I mean, that's what's constantly said in this forum when it comes to Gazans, right?

Violet...

[pelsar]

53. better off under the occupation?

i'm just raising the question....no more than that. I hardly think that the "god of no occupation" no matter what is a given......

so whats better: a failed state like sudan or an occupation?

just an interesting question which in fact may not be just theoritcal.....Polls are all constant in that people always place first and foremost personal security. Several times its been said from residents in gaza that before the withdrawal there was more security.(I get the impression, no stats, that there has been more killing palestenian on palestenian then there was israel vs palestenian)


that said, i'm ecstatic that we left gaza, however the repercussions should not be ignored and what is actually happening. it may be a "hiccup" as they sort themselves out, or it may be a prelude to a long term low level civil war....no one knows.

actually my own contention is that, it is a responsibility issue......whether or not they succeed is now up to them....running a society requires first and foremost the ability to make decisions and stand by them.