Around 150 Israeli casualties today alone?

[Nimrod2005]

Am I adding the numbers correctly? Over a 100 this evening in Haifa, 14 soldiers during day fighting, and 28 civilians on the AM shift of Hizbollah bombings?

P.S. People are still trapped under rubble...

Would this be the most ever in one day for Israel?

[Tom Joad]

1. There should be an immediate cease-fire.

[azurnoir]

2. If these numbers are correct,

there might be one.

[xultar]

3. Makes me wonder if they can aim.

[leftchick]

4. why isn't Israel calling for a cease fire?

:(

[Nimrod2005]

5. They have a much bigger fire power than Hizbollah militia

They can go on for years...

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. because if they do at this point Hisbollah wins

perception is reality... and in the ME that perception is worth its weight in gold. This will only decrease the chances of a cease fire on BOTH sides.

One has proven it can hurt the other badly... (well both have) and in that resolve means we go on.

[Nimrod2005]

11. I think Al Jazeerah and Co already won the PR war...

Noone will be talking about the 7 day war from 1967...When Israel was able to achieve victory over more than one Arab state in 7 days or was it 6 days?

It is now nearly a month, Hizbollah inflects the most damage today...I don't want to think about what will happen to Hizbollah after the cease fire...????????????????????/

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. Oh granted

Hisbollah has won the PR war hands down... though you can see glimers of the IDF counter attack, but they are poor students of this part of the modern art of war.

But these numbers will make it very hard for the few doves close to the gov'ment power in Israel to accept or push for a cease fire right at the moment... the hakws will now make the case, forcefully, to go on with this howhever long it takes. The only break will be for either or both sides to run out of ammo I fear.

[MrPrax]

20. Which numbers?

The OP cites nothing and I as most people are glued to both regional and national news?

Yesterday the official figure total was 97 Israelis dead...the posting is claiming 150 in one day alone? or just wounded? Is this part of the PR war that the Hezullah is winning...the misrepresenting of casualties and dead?

You do know that nearly a third of the Lebanese dead are children under 12 don't you? How did Hez win this PR battle? Are you implying that the 'enemy' is killing it's own children?

There are no doves in Israel BTW..that has been very obvious to this observer for the last five years and a handful of peace groups and refuseniks is hardly a repleacement for the much larger and more robust movement of the 80s and early 90s.

[breakaleg]

22. To say that Hezbollah is winning the PR war implies they are engaging

in a PR war. It's Israel that has the massive PR machine. They have numerous agencies and lobbyists at work world wide presenting their side. That's the only reason Israel was able to gain any support for this atrocity they are currently engaged in. Israeli PR spin.

If Hezbollah is winning the PR war it's because the facts are on their side. It certainly isn't something they are actively engaged in, unlike Israel. In fact, when we do hear from Nasrallah directly, all he does is hurt his own cause.

[mtice]

24. Hezb has no PR war?

Then how do you explain the numerous photographs that have been proven to be faked, photoshopped, or staged in order to make Israel look bad?

[breakaleg]

26. what photos? The ones I've seen, the photoshopping was

minimal and didn't change the preception of the events in the photo. The color of the smoke? please..

And was Hezbollah responsible for altering that photo? No. It was the press. Hold them responsible.

Do you deny the Israeli PR machine? Where are Hezbollah's PR firms and lobbyists? If they exist, I'd like to see them.

[mtice]

27. You must see this

Someone has compiled numerous examples of the pro-Hezbollah, anti-Israel journalistic fraud we have seen from this war. There's more too (for example, the guy with the helmet holding up the dead baby in one photograph is a professional actor who magically appears in many of the photographs of alleged Israeli "atrocities", which is not pointed out in the video), but this is definitely a good start for the skeptical.

http://www.aish.com/movies/PhotoFraud.asp



Can you produce a similar example of media manipulation on the pro-Israeli side? I bet that you cannot, because there is no such fraud to produce.

[breakaleg]

35. I'm sorry. He lost me the...

"By exaggerating Israeli violence" part. The implication that those photos alter the perception of the damage is absurd.

It does appear that some have been staged. I'm not going to defend them and I don't know why. Someone will have to ask the photographers directly.

But, look at the numbers. How many Lebanese have been killed? How many buildings, bridges etc. have been destroyed. There is no way that these photos are misrepresenting the actual damage in this case.

As for Israeli PR, all you have to do is look at the news.

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-7828123714384920696&q=Peace%2C+Propaganda+%26+the+Promised+Land

[mtice]

36. In response

"The implication that those photos alter the perception of the damage is absurd."

Cloning smoke plumes, copying and pasting images of damaged buildings, this doesn't alter the perception of the damage? Then why alter the photos? Anyone...? Bueller?

"It does appear that some have been staged."

I'm glad you could get this far, this is a more honest admission than most I've been arguing this topic with here. You still have many steps to take before you see this situation clearly, but this is an important one.

"But, look at the numbers. How many Lebanese have been killed? How many buildings, bridges etc. have been destroyed. There is no way that these photos are misrepresenting the actual damage in this case."

Let me be unambiguous about this: If Israel trades casualties one for one with its enemies, it will be destroyed. To be "even", proportionate to population, Israel needs to kill about 200 Muslims for every Israeli killed. If you think the casualties should be equal on boths sides, that that justifies anything, then you are in practice on the side of those who would happily trade off their own children for dead Israeli children, of whom we can see there is no lack.

"As for Israeli PR, all you have to do is look at the news.

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-782812371438492..."

What you posted is not "news", it is an anti-Israel propaganda video, typical of the fallacious arguments I struggle to counter here. The Media Education Foundation is not a news source. The opening of the video betrays that it is propaganda, by saying Israel occupied the disputed territories "after a war between Israel and Syria, Egypt, Jordan, and Iraq". But what happened in 1967 was not merely "a war between", but an attempt by Israel's neighbors to exterminate it! With all the military might of the Arab world assembled and ready to "drive the Jews into the sea", by grit, determiniation, and miracle, Israel, against all expectations, actually won. I guess if the Arabs won that one then there wouldn't be a problem today, would there, since all the Jews would be dead or would have fled.

Moreover, a video about 1967 is hardly an example of Israeli PR in the current war in Lebanon. Please, show me some real Israeli PR about Lebanon - surely with this allegedly massive Israeli PR machine there must be plenty for you to choose from, yes? Give me one or two examples with equal relevance to the war now underway as what I supplied to you, and I will agree with your claim; otherwise I will have to reject it as being without foundation.

[breakaleg]

37. I stopped reading your post after this sentence...

"You still have many steps to take before you see this situation clearly, but this is an important one."

I find your tone to be insulting, demeaning, and quite frankly arrogant. Especially in light of the facts.

How many Lebanese were killed and how many Israeli's? What is the proportion of Lebanese civilian deaths compared to Israeli civilian deaths?

Look it up.

[mtice]

38. You stop reading then

you close your eyes and refuse to acknowledge the facts before you. Let your pride blind you, if you will, but don't advocate that in your blindness everyone else should strike out their eyes.

[breakaleg]

39. I'm refusing to get into a debate with someone so condescending.

I could say that when you open your eyes and acknowledge the atrocities committed by Israel, you will be enlightened also... but I won't.

[mtice]

40. Atrocities by Israel?

Name them. Name one alleged atrocity by Israel, and no, having bombed a site where rockets were being launched from doesn't count, since that is a Hezbollah atrocity and not an Israeli one.

Please, let's hear the list of terrible things Israel has done, and let's see how well it stands up to critical analysis.

[TahitiNut]

16. There can never be a "win-win" ...

... when either side is committed to ensuring the other side cannot 'win.' The ONLY other outcome is "lose-lose." Only a total fool thinks there can be "win-lose" - life is not a zero-sum game. Worse, war is an absolutely guaranteed negative-sum game.

[FlavaKreemSnak]

18. They are. They are calling for Lebanon to stop fighting back

but they are having a hard time getting them to agree to accept the occupation and stop retaliating when they get bombed. The points of view about what a cease fire should be are just so different between the two sides!

[mtice]

30. Lebanon is not fighting anyone

Please don't fall for the deliberate elision of Hezbollah and Lebanon. Hezbollah is not the government of Lebanon, and cannot legitimately declare and conduct war on Lebanon's behalf. The people of Lebanon did not consent to what Hezbollah has dragged them into.

[Poll_Blind]

6. 15 killed, 40 wounded but I know there could be more (from today)

Witness: Victims did not take shelter after siren; at least 5 rockets hit Haifa residential areas Three killed in Haifa rocket attacks; Katyusha kills 12 IDF reservists in Kfar Giladi

There could be more lost on the Israeli side from today, I've been playing with children the last few days and they're a very pleasent but unavoidable distraction. There was some debate about the 12 reservists- I did hear on CNN (Finoulla (sp?) Sweeny or her counterpart, I think they're both switching from Haifa to Beirut and back again frequently for their reports) that the reservists were actively supporting IDF troops in the operation.

PB

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. By the way, you will hear crickets mostly on this board

about the Israeli civilian victims... military tragic, but valid targets.. it is time of war.

[marmar]

12. Israeli civilian deaths are horrible, as are Lebanese civilian deaths...

as are Iraqi civilian deaths...as are the deaths of any civilians killed in more pointless war. NOBODY on this board is going to dispute that, and to insinuate that people here don't care about Israeli casualties is just baseless.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. Sorry, but that is the way it looks to many of us after three

weeks of this ok. So if you consider all casualties tragic, congratulations. I fear you are among the monority.

[mtice]

31. But Lebanese civilian deaths are horrible, period.

With no mention of Israeli civilian deaths.

At some point these "both sides" protestations are not credible. The walls echo with the wailing over Lebanese deaths, and blood libel against Israel as if Israel purposely wants to kill as many people as possible (preferably children). Yet Israeli deaths are greeting with this "both sides" stuff and not a whisper of condemnation of Hezbollah. Talk and talk and talk about how Israel as a nation is not legitimate, but total silence when considering the utter lack of legitimacy of Hezbollah.

[Egnever]

23. You show your bias with this post.

Death on all sides of this are needless and terrible. The fact that you think that the majority of people here somehow condone or don't care about israeli casualties shows your bias. Both sides casualties are tragedy. Neither sides casualties are more tragic than the other.

I find it appalling that so many somehow think that israeli casualties are somehow more horrifying than Lebanese. That thinking is the absolute root of the problem now faced in the middle east. Human life is precious no mater what side it is on. When you attribute more worth to one side or the other you ensure the continuation of this debacle.

[mtice]

32. This is not true

And I challenge you to prove it:

"The fact that you think that the majority of people here somehow condone or don't care about israeli casualties shows your bias."

Show me an example of someone here who cares about Israeli casualties but doesn't excuse their murder by also going on about Lebanese casualties. I made this same challenge to another poster yesterday; the result, total silence.

Perhaps you can do better?

[Egnever]

41. And there it is again

"but doesn't excuse their murder by also going on about Lebanese casualties."

How can you look at only one side of the killings and say they are horrible while dismissing the other side? Only through a bias for one side or the other is it possible to do so.

I think the casualties on both side are tragic. Unfortunately as long as there are people on both sides that think the deaths of the other side are less important somehow than the deaths on their own this struggle is destined to continue.

Do you really think that lebanese casualties play no part in this situation? Do you think only the israeli deaths have significance? It doesn't matter what nationality you are when your son or daughter is killed by someone you want revenge. To imply that somehow only Israel is justified in trying to do something about their casualties you are part of the problem not part of the solution.

Of course from the tone of your post it seems quite clear you only care about the israeli deaths and therefore your mind is already closed. So I really don't expect anything more than posturing from your side of this conversation.

[BlueAlert]

9. I have trouble with math

So hundreds of casualties is worth 2 kidnapped soldiers?

[Nimrod2005]

14. Thousands if you count all of them from day one!

On both sides BTW.

[TahitiNut]

10. I regard the 1st paragraph of the ABC story very telling.

BEIRUT (Reuters) - Hizbollah killed 12 Israeli soldiers on Sunday in its deadliest rocket strike yet and Israeli bombs killed 19 Lebanese civilians as Lebanon rejected a draft U.N. resolution to end the 26-day-old war.

A rocket struck a group of Israeli reservists, called up for the Lebanon offensive, in the Israeli village of Kfar Giladi. Medics said dozens were wounded.

<snip>
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=2279651

At the same time it's characterized as Hizb'allah's "deadliest rocket strike yet," and identifies the killed as "Israeli soldiers," it reports "Israeli bombs killed 19 Lebanese civilians" in a 'business as usual' tone.

:wtf:

If the obscenely disporportional killing isn't made clear by this, what can?

[mtice]

33. It's the reporting that is disproportionate

Notice how every Israeli death mentioned is a soldier, while every Hezbollah death is a "civilian"?

A terrorist running around in civilian clothes is a war criminal, even if his death is reported by Reuters as "civilian".

Reuters, by the way, has already been proven to fraudulently manipulate their coverage in favor of Hezbollah.

http://www.aish.com/movies/PhotoFraud.asp

[theanarch]

17. it's as if a stupid child starts throwing rocks at a hornet's nest...

...and the more rocks he throws, the more often he gets stung by angry hornets. So, instead of backing off, he runs up to the nest and starts whacking it with a baseball bat, which destroys the nest, but not the hornets, who are madder (and more numerous) than ever, and continue the stinging.

No doubt, Israeli's will unite behind the gov't. as long as the rockets fall; but once they stop, Olmert & Co. will have to pay a very heavy price for their arrogance, naiveity, short-sightedness, and refusal to plan ahead for Israeli citizens caught in the crossfire. Which is one more reason why Israel is pursuing the offensive, long after its failure became common knowledge.

[msmcghee]

19. According to interviews I saw today on NPR . .

. . Israelis are very united in their desire to see their military put an end to Hizbolla. They want to see results from Olmert. The only way "Olmert & Co." will pay a heavy price is if he can't put an end to Hizbollah and their rockets - once and for all.

In which case I suspect the Israelis will replace him with someone who can.

[mtice]

34. Israel is the hornet's nest

And these genocidal fanatical Muslim organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah are the ones who keep throwing rocks and getting stung. Or have you forgotten that this latest round of war was touched off by both Hamas and Hezbollah attacking Israel with rockets day after day, and kidnapping hostages?

[Spinoza]

21. 150 casualties for Israel in one day

is equivalent to 7,500 casualties in the U.S. on a percentage basis. I wonder how we would be reacting? Just one day.

[msmcghee]

25. Here at DU . . .

. . reports of large numbers of Israeli deaths inspire posts wondering why they don't just give up, can't they see they'll never defeat the courageous freedom-fighters of Hizbollah who are now taking the upper hand and will deal Israel the thrashing she deserves.

Reports of deaths of Lebanese however are proof that the neo-con Israeli state is out to "genocide" its enemies with its vastly superior American supplied weapons and training.

Sometimes it's hard to keep all the rationalizations straight.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mtice]

29. We'd be renting out parking spaces

in Damascus.