Israel Committed to Block Arms and Kill Nasrallah (NYT)

[spindrifter]

By STEVEN ERLANGER
Published: August 20, 2006

JERUSALEM, Aug. 19 — Despite a cease-fire agreement, Israel intends to do its best to keep Iran and Syria from rearming Hezbollah and to kill the militia’s leader, Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, says a senior Israeli commander.

International commitments to exclude the Hezbollah militia from southern Lebanon and to disarm it already seem hollow, said the commander, who had a well-placed view of the war and its planning and has extensive experience in Lebanon.

The officer would only speak on the condition of anonymity in an interview on Friday. But, speaking one day before commandos carried out a raid that Israeli officials said was to disrupt arms shipments for Hezbollah from Syria and Iran, he was explicit that Israel would continue to seek out and block any such attempts. He also emphasized that, despite criticism from the Israeli public and even troops of the performance of the Army and government, he considered the threat and the fighting ability of Hezbollah to have been severely diminished.

Furthermore, he made it clear that Sheik Nasrallah remained a target as the leader of a group that Israel and the United States have labeled terrorist. “There’s only one solution for him,” he said. At another point, he said simply, “This man must die.”

<more>

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/20/world/middleeast/20mideast.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

[idontwantaname]

1. “This man must die.”

i dont doubt israel has the will and ability to do this... so i guess its just a question of when. PR really isnt an issue with the israeli cabinet because when you really get down to it they dont care what we (in the west) think. the US will continue to give them 3.x billion dollars a year in aid... and continually supply them with weapons faster than we can help the victims of katrina and everything will be ok.

the real question everyone should really ask is who will replace nasrallah?

someone much much worse. i can guarantee you that.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

3. Nasrallah invited the IDF into Lebanon??

That's one euphemism I haven't heard before for 'invasion' ;)

One of the problems with talking about 'these countries' as though they're one indistinguishable mass is that you'd not notice that Lebanon has had a rising number of women representatives in govt. As the US has yet to see a female leader, that's not really any sort of convincing argument about, well, anything...

July 4, 2005

It is widely acknowledged that Lebanon is one of the freest countries in the Arab world when it comes to political tolerance, especially with regard to women’s rights and their participation in the political system. However, the rate of participation of women in the most important body, within a democratic system, is very low, especially when compared to other less open Middle Eastern countries. The first parliamentary elections in 1992 following Lebanon’s 15-year civil war brought three women to power. Since then the level of women participation in parliament had been a steady three seats out of 128—2.3 percent of the total seats.



This past year, however, women participation in Lebanese political life has finally increased. Two women were appointed as ministers in the government for the first time in the country’s history before it was brought down by ‘people power’ following the assassination of former Prime Minister Rafik Hariri on February 14. The ‘Independence Intifida’ that concurred on March 14th and the parliamentary elections that followed, free of Syrian tutelage, brought forth more change—one such change: an increase in the number of women in parliament from 3 to 6. Let us take s brief look at the women that contributed to this fundamental transformation.

http://www.tharwaproject.com/node/2434

[PCIntern]

4. Yes,

they were bombing women and children in Israel and dared them to come in.

Don't parse words with me...you pick on a regional superpower, you get slammed.

[idontwantaname]

5. Yes,?

lets see if you remember your history accurately enough:

members of the IDF were taken prisoner on disputed territory. some say israel, some say lebanon...

israel immediately retaliates bombing beirut airport and other civilian infrastructures. THE AIRPORT???

hezbollah responds with rockets into israel...

the IDF bombs half the country decades back then weeks later invades.

------------------

is this the version you recall or did you make up something different?

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lgn19087]

13. Why bother

the Israelis are above reproach. They could take out the airport, a movie theatre, a grocer, anything they wanted to, and nobody would say a world about it because everybody is scared of being branded "anti-semetic". let me just say that if verbally opposing evil imperialistic aggression against innocents is "anti-semetic", I'm guilty as charged.

[breakaleg]

6. The day will come when the US no longer supports Israel in all

of these criminal acts. And when that happens, then Israel will realize the error of their ways - the hard way.

They certainly aren't doing themselves any favors with this policy of expansionism and aggression.

[TomClash]

8. And after getting "slammed"

you get more money, more power, more prestige, more weapons. And you win.

Toughness looks all too good from behind a computer screen.

[IntiRaymi]

12. Would Israel's economy collapse without this yearly handout?

[breakaleg]

7. It's amazing that Israel isn't ashamed of admitting publicly it's goal of

committing murder. Most "democratic" nations would never dream of doing such a thing for fear of the backlash of their citizens. But it seems that the citizens of Israel support the acts of murder committed by their government and their leaders have no fear of repercussions from inside or outside Israel.

And please don't tell me what a bad guy Nasrallah is. Everyone deserves his day in court. Look at all of the murders committed at the hands of Ariel Sharon - I'm sure he's responsible for more deaths than Nasrallah will ever be.

[The Stranger]

9. Translated: Israel is committed to continuing WAR CRIMES.

[msmcghee]

11. So, where are the war crimes formal accusations to the UN . .

. . you all were so sure Israel is guilty of? It's easy to toss around accusations like that. It's a little harder to show any credible evidence they occured - especially when there is none.

[lgn19087]

14. You want evidence of war crimes?

Look at the pictures of the dead children, the entire blocks of Beirut demolished, and the weeping parents. If those don't show you "war crimes" then I'm afraid NOTHING will be evidence of war crimes to you.

[msmcghee]

15. Well, I still invite you to show me where any aggrieved . .

. . family of a Hizbullah fighter or Lebanese civilian killed in the Israeli attempts to stop Hizbullah from killing Israeli citizens - has filed an actual war crimes complaint against Israel.

Your accusation was that war crimes have been committed by Israel. I challenged you to back that up. You failed.

You should understand that a war crime is an act of aggression against others or purposely targeting innocent civilians. Defending against an act of aggression is not a war crime unless you can show that they purposely targeted civilians.

The reason that no-one has filed such a complaint is because the whole world knows from the UN report that Hizbullah is the aggressor and Israel is the defender. They would be laughed out of the UN for trying such a stunt.

According to the Geneva conventions, Israel has a right to attack any targets that are associated with supporting the Hizbullah unprovoked attacks on Israel. That even includes hospitals and ambulances if they are being used to support the attackers in some way.

I saw an Israeli video that showed Hizbullah fighters fire a barrage of missiles and then escape from the residential area in two red cross ambulances. I'll dig up the link to that and post it here.

You show me evidence that Israel is purposely targeting civilians. I assure you if there was any it would be all over the internet and highlighted on every news program.

Note: The underlying myopia of many on the far left - including many here at DU - to fail to recognize the difference between an unprovoked attack on the one hand - and defense from an unprovoked attack on the other - can destroy Dems chances in 2008 if this takes hold in larger numbers. I encourage you to think about what you are doing. Dems have always been the champion of what is good, right and fair in the world. For the peace - against the bullies of the world. That's why almost all Dem pols are supporting Israel unequivocally on this issue. Think about it.

[Englander]

16. Olmert/Peretz = war criminals.

Clueless insults about the 'far left' doesn't change that reality.

[Englander]

17. Any luck with that link, yet?

I saw an Israeli video that showed Hizbullah fighters fire a barrage of missiles and then escape from the residential area in two red cross ambulances. I'll dig up the link to that and post it here.

While we all wait for this link, here's one that chronicles Israeli war crimes, deliberate &
targeted attacks on Red Cross ambulances;


Red Cross ambulances destroyed in Israeli air strike on rescue mission

· Volunteer paramedics demand UN guarantees
· Flags and lights prove no protection for aid teams

Suzanne Goldenberg in Tyre
Tuesday July 25, 2006
The Guardian

The ambulance headlamps were on, the blue light overhead was flashing, and another light illuminated the Red Cross flag when the first Israeli missile hit, shearing off the right leg of the man on the stretcher inside. As he lay screaming beneath fire and smoke, patients and ambulance workers scrambled for safety, crawling over glass in the dark. Then another missile hit the second ambulance.

Even in a war which has turned the roads of south Lebanon into killing zones, Israel's rocket strike on two clearly marked Red Cross ambulances on Sunday night set a deadly new milestone.

Six ambulance workers were wounded and three generations of the Fawaz family, being transported to hospital from Tibnin with what were originally minor injuries, were left fighting for their lives. Two ambulances were entirely destroyed, their roofs pierced by missiles.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1828142,00.html

[msmcghee]

18. Sorry it took so long.

I should have bookmarked it.

The page to select from is at: http://www.standwithus.com/idf_videos.asp

All the videos are interesting but the one with the Hizbullah fighters using two waiting ambulances to escape the IDF after firing rockets is #6.

Added on edit: I suggest that if Lebanese civilians expect to have the use of Red Cross ambulances when they are injured then Lebanon should stop Hizbullah from using those ambulance for war against Israel.

Similarly, if Lebanese civilians want their towns to be peaceful then Lebanon should stop Hizbullah from using their towns as bases from which to attack Israel.

War is shitty. That's why it's not a good idea to start them.

[Englander]

19. Hey, don't apologise for taking so long.

I think you should apologise, however, for using such a blatantly biased source, whose sole intent
appears to be to piss on leftists, or greens, or progressives, or anybody who dares to question the
illegal activities of the state of Israel. For eg, the National Director of StandWithUs, has some
articles appear at the rw hatesite, FrontPageMag*

If you want to try again, using a credible source, do feel free.


*
'Propaganda Now

By Roz Rothstein
FrontPageMagazine.com | January 31, 2006

I attended my second screening of “Paradise Now” at the University of Judaism on Jan. 19, and I was concerned on a variety of levels. Having seen the film I realized the audience would be exposed to a one-sided perspective which would include phrases like “we have no other choice, but to use our bodies to resist the occupation - we are already dead here," etc. These and other constant comments, without offering important information about incitement, terrorist groups, about how the corrupt Palestinian Authority which did not engage in building roads, schools or improve sanitation, etc., would be misleading and out of context.

I knew Israel’s viewpoint would have some airing after the film at the UJ, during the question-and-answer session, partly because the Q&A panel would be moderated by Marc Ballon, a reporter from the Los Angeles Jewish Journal, and include Nadav Morag, UJ staff member. Also sitting on the panel would be “Paradise Now” director Hany Abu-Assad as well as two other pro-film panelists.

The film is a well done piece of propaganda. Seeing the movie for the second time underscored its open attempts to sanitize Jihad and incitement, push a one-sided anti-Israel narrative, and omit critical information that would help educate the audience. It would now be used to "educate" people about the plight of the Palestinians albeit presented out of context. While there is no denying that Palestinians have suffered, it appears that the filmmakers intended to lead people to "understand" that such misery can push many ordinary Palestinians to conclude that suicide bombing is sadly yet understandably the only answer to their plight and an appropriate form of resistance to Israeli occupation.

>snip

Roz Rothstein is National Director of StandWithUs.

http://www.frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=21081

[msmcghee]

20. Did you expect a Hizbullah website would be providing . .

. . these IDF combat videos?

It's not like this website made the videos. Neither do they offer narration. The videos were produced by the IDF from footage taken during IDF missions in Lebanon.

The fact they are offered on this website has no relevance to the images that are shown. Refute the images if you can. But unless you can show they were staged somehow - they show Hizbullah fighters operating inside densely populated areas of cities of S. Lebanon firing Katyusha rockets at civilian areas in Israel - and then escaping in Red Cross ambulances.

You'd think Hizbullah would at least be able to provide a few clips of missiles being fired from out in the farming areas where there are no buildings and houses to hide them. I wonder why those are not available.

Is it possibly because pictures of dead cows are not nearly as valuable for propoganda purposes as dead Lebaneses babies?

Note: Half the linked articles used to start threads in this I/P forum come from Arab propaganda websites. I don't see any pro-Israeli posters complaining. I think victim-hood suits you.

Newsflash: People who fire 4000 missiles from inside populated cities with the express purpose of killing Israeli civilians are not victims. They're cowards and assholes.

[pelsar]

21. its an old story....

Note: Half the linked articles used to start threads in this I/P forum come from Arab propaganda websites.

you've discovered that content from the pro israeli sites and other type sites (right wing/neo con, etc) are dismissed not because of their content but because of the editorials. Its as if the content can possibly be correct because of the html programming around it.

tolerence is not a characteristic of this forum

[msmcghee]

22. Tolerance is not a characteristic of . .

. . any ideology - left or right. It's always the same story. There's no place for reason when religious-like beliefs get in the way - beliefs that always justify killing others. That's where war and killing comes from - the religious-like beliefs that people carry in their minds.

It's the oldest story in the world.

[Englander]

23. 'Irony? What's that?' n/t

[msmcghee]

26. The most basic rule of civilization . .

. . that it is wrong to initiate the use of force against others - the only rule that if followed, can actually and effectively prevent killing and war - is easily understood as a reasonable doctrine of personal relations, even by small children in the sandbox.

It is derived from, or is a variation of, the Golden Rule itself - an idea that was probably understood by primitive humans when they first developed an ability to reason.

Concepts based on reason and intellect are the opposite of ideology. That's a distinction that many here fail to recognize.

[Englander]

29. Oh, great, another non-sequitur.

That's what I love about i/p, it's just like watching Fox News, sometimes. Fox-news friendly
concepts, language, talking points, &tc all sometimes make an appearance. I'd say that was
happening now. What's with that?

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[msmcghee]

32. OK - Let me try this again.

Without the gratuitous comments.

The video shows a dozen or so Hizbullah fleeing from the IDF and making a getaway in two Red Cross ambulances. (#6 at http://www.standwithus.com/idf_videos.asp )

I think this indisputably shows . .

1) that Hizbullah launches attacks from and seeks refuge in heavily populated civilian areas in S. Lebanon, and

2) that Hizbullah uses ambulances for transportation in order to elude Israeli defenses.

Both of those acts, caught on video footage that would be very difficult to fake, show grave violations of the Geneva Conventions by Hizbullah, and legally, by Lebanon, for permitting them to occur within Lebanese territory.

Re: Use of Red Cross emblems to deceive the enemy, from: http://www.icrc.org/Web/Eng/siteeng0.nsf/iwpList92/B40C8F7D886BAB58C1256B66005916C5

Articles 37 and 38 of (Geneva Convention) Protocol I prohibit any improper use of the emblem or of the signs or signals prescribed by the Conventions and the Protocol. The use of recognized emblems, or of the signs and signals prescribed by the Conventions and the Protocol, in order to deceive the enemy is considered as a perfidious act under Article 37, and is classed by Article 85, para. 3 (f) as a grave breach of the Conventions and the Protocol. <14>

That was the topic under discussion that you have avoided addressing now for several posts.

[Englander]

24. Oh, dear.

Note: Half the linked articles used to start threads in this I/P forum come from Arab propaganda websites.

Like the BBC, or the Guardian, or Haaretz, or B'Tselem, eh?

[msmcghee]

25. You seem to be referring . .

. . to the other half for some reason.

[Englander]

27. Ah, so you meant Ynet?

Or Democracy Now, or CNN, or Jpost? But, considering that you've used StandWithUs, a propaganda
site that proudly labels itself as a propaganda site, & you wholeheartedly agreed with another
poster here who used the fundamentalist xtian site, WorldNetDaily, as a source*, phrases such as
'Arab propaganda websites' are just meaningless insults.

*
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=128529

[msmcghee]

28. Have you considered addressing . .

. . the content of the videos? Or, would that be a distraction for you?

[Englander]

31. No, not really.

But then I wouldn't have placed much import on videos provided by say, the Serbian military ten years
ago, with regard to Bosnia/Sarajevo, or videos provided by the South African military twenty years ago
when there was apartheid. An army that's committing war crimes & wants to justify those war crimes
isn't my idea of a credible source. The same crew that's responsible for the murder of Muhammad al-Durrah,
& hundreds of other children, & the deaths of Ms Corrie, & Iain Hook, & James Miller, & Tom Hurndall,
& is busy prolonging a brutal occupation isn't my idea of a credible source.

So, what do you think of WND, I notice you've completely ignored that site?