Is it anti-Semetic to say that Zionism was and is a mistake?

[Harper_is_Bush]

Zionism has a variety of connotations, but the central definition is the promotion of the Jewish homeland and migration to it.

I think it's a mistake to continue to promote Israel as a sort of siren song to all Jews.

[uppityperson]

1. Here is a link to the rules. Good luck.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1928475&mesg_id=1928475

[Harper_is_Bush]

5. Here's a link to what you should read. Good luck.

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/polite

[uppityperson]

6. I thought it might get locked so wanted to quick post.

sorry if it came over as snarky, not meant that way.

Edited to reply to OP, I don't see that as being anti-semitic.

[MrPrax]

13. Here's another link...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=145434&mesg_id=145434

:shrug:

[TahitiNut]

2. Shouldn't every religion and ethnicity have its own country?

:shrug: After all, isn't it proven that "separate but equal" is the only way?

[Nikki Stone 1]

4. I don't think the Wiccans have their own country

:evilgrin:

[bridgit]

3. imo, no...

[Lithos]

7. I disagree with your definition

It's a bit more to it than "migration" though that is part of it for some. The Zionism everyone thinks of is that associated with Herzl, though truthfully if his brand of political-based nationalism were all there was, Israel would have never been created. I think for much of the formative years, the type of Zionism espoused by Ahad Ha'am and Martin Buber, namely a spiritual/cultural one, probably had more to do with Israel's founding than anything else. I also from a bystander viewpoint, think that following 1967, Herzl's version became much a much more popular viewpoint in that Buber's version as more akin to the idea of struggle, investment, and future than Herzl's which was more about preservation and conservatism.

Ha'am's and Buber's version I think was far from a mistake and truly one of the great cultural rebirths in modern history and as such has greatly benefitted the world. Herzl's version as implemented post 1967 is a mistake and I think has stagnated much of what Israel could be.

L-

[TahitiNut]

9. It was Herzl's view that there were two kinds of antisemitism, right?

He posited that one kind of antisemitism was openly and candidly hostile to anyone and anything Jewish and the other kind merely hid it. According to Herzl, then, the whole world is antisemitic. It was/is(?) this hypothesis (axiom?) that Herzl employed to 'motivate' his flavor (nationalism) of Zionism. I don't think it's illogical to regard Herzl as reliant on the belief that the whole world is antisemitic - i.e. he exploited it.

I personally regard this kind of thinking as the extreme in divisive propaganda - essentially propagating an irrevocable animosity between Jews and gentiles. I've seen the footprints of this kind of thinking on DU ... even with regards to an extreme form of feminism that regards males as inherently misogynistic and incapable of knowing it.


I think we need to remind ourselves that the evil of such divisiveness is that it effectively precludes cooperation. Without cooperation, all social systems and interactions become "lose-lose" (i.e. negative-sum games) since "win-win" (positive sum games) require cooperation.

[Lithos]

11. Herzl said a lot of things

And even backtracked a few times, so I would have to see the citation to understand the context he was saying it in. About the only thing consistent was that he was an ultra-nationalist.

L-

[Emit]

8. Harper_is_Bush

Why did your thread get sent to the I/P forum and this one did not?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1965628&mesg_id=1965628

[Lithos]

10. Zionism involves Israel

Anti-Semitism existed well before the establishment of modern Israel and would continue on without it.

L-

[cali]

12. On its face, no

but it's wise to be aware that it is a frequently used ploy of violently antisemitic groups such as stormfront.

[Spinoza]

14. Certainly,

not all anti-Zionists are anti-Semites. However, just as certainly, ALL anti-Semites are also anti-Zionists. For those anti-Zionists out there who don't believe they are anti-Semitic, you had better pick and chose your 'allies' and associates carefully. You yourself may not be anti-Semitic, but you are also on the same side, in respect to the validity of Zionism and Israel, with some rather disgusting and vicious human beings.