Questioning the Anti-War Coalition

[pelsar]

http://www.columbiaspectator.com/media/storage/paper865/news/2006/09/28/Opinion/Questioning.The.AntiWar.Coalition-2312965.shtml?norewrite200610011254&sourcedomain=www.columbiaspectator.com

As liberals and members of the reality-based community, we are firmly opposed to the war in Iraq. It's awful; it's pointless; and it is a tragic waste of human life that flies in the face of every American ideal. That's why, two weeks ago, one of us went to a meeting of the Campus Anti-War Coalition (CAWC) to try to organize an active anti-Iraq movement on campus. It seemed like an easy enough task

But at this meeting, which was called to talk about ways to organize opposition to the war in Iraq, there was only one idea that people wanted to discuss: protesting Israel.

This sad fact leaves us and most other liberals on campus in a bit of a bind. We support Israel. Israel is a liberal democracy in a part of the world that is decidedly illiberal and pointedly undemocratic. The groups attacking Israel are usually armed religious fundamentalists. Just like our opposition to the war in Iraq, our support of Israel flows naturally from our progressive values. And what CAWC told us is, "To work with us on Iraq, you have to work with us against Israel."

________

note this original post disappeared for reasons that are unclear to me, earlier...as it highlighted a most interesting aspect: the "liberal left" teaming up with religious fanatics who's goal's is israels destruction (religious fanatics) and or changes in israeli policy "(liberal" left).

One of the most interesting comments was from poster Mike_C who defended the teaming up religious fanatics and the "liberal left" as reasonable. (exact wording i don't have though i did quote it during the first reaction to the post).

since i do believe in looking at the results of ones actions, i find the goal of transferring israeli occupation with religious fanaticism (as in taliban, iran and hamas ideals) to be a rather disgusting. Also, history has shown that once the religious take control of a country, the racism and internal terrorism of moral squads are considered an internal problem and no longer concerns the "liberal left" in any realistic way (protesting the talibans treatment of women?).

in short, it does clarify the goal of those on the left who do team up with the religious fanatics, like the academic boycotter's the end goal is not the betterment of the Palestinians lives (assuming that those of the liberal left are against religious fanatics, perhaps i'm assuming to much), its the punishment of israel, whatever the cost to the palestenians...why that is, should be left to another discussion....

[Tom Joad]

1. Israel is the only nation in the Middle East firmly in support of the Bush

agenda. And one of the few nations in the world. Maybe we should see olmert as another of Bush's poodle's.

[pelsar]

2. so?

what does that have to do with left teaming with religious fanatics

did you ever protest the taliban?...iranian govt style or maybe i'm assuming too much... and perhaps you agree with their governing styles?...or that its ok for the iranians to terrorize its own, since they are within their own "nation state?)

meaning it would be perfectly ok with you if Hamas actually implements its ideal of govt....and all it means to the secular palestenaina and the larger geographical area.

[Tom Joad]

3. So? If the point is to oppose the Iraq war, why support a regime that

supports Bush's insanity. That would not make sense.
True, the Israeli government is not putting Palestinian women in Burkas. Israeli is putting them and their children into graves. Into prisons. Into Bantustans.

[pelsar]

4. and the religious fanatics....

since they are getting empowered and gaining power...and it seems have a chance of taking over the palestenains.....so are you for it?

some on the left as in the article see the palestenain/israeli conflict as a bit more complex than the black and white version that you do....but then i've noticed you dont really care what happens to the palestenains after israel leaves.....

its kind of a racist attitude isnt it?....you dont seem to mind terrorism as long as its done by ones "close relatives" and not by someone else....meaning iran can terrorize its own citizens with its religous laws, as do the saudis as did the taliban and your ok with it (at least thats my impression)...and so too with the palestenians. If the hamas does take full control, hangs homosexuals, girls with big mouths, stone women who were raped for adultry, your ok with that, because its their own tribe or at least a neighborhood tribe thats doing it.....

can you give me a clear answer on that?

[Tom Joad]

5. I get really tired of your presumptions. Reagan (and even Jimmy C.)

supported the Taliban, not me. You don't know anything about me.
I think Israeli oppression makes matters much worse, as does the occupation of Iraq makes matters much worse.
Time to stop the occupation.

[msmcghee]

6. It seems to me that asking for a clear answer . .

. . is the exact opposite of making presumptions.

He offered you a chance to clarify your position. Can you do that? Or, is your answer that any group that opposes Israel is OK with you?

[Tom Joad]

7. No.

[pelsar]

8. clear answer.....

so lets continue.....

are you for the "coalition" of left and religious fanatics against the occupation with the real possibility of hamas taking over and giving the palestenains a taliban/iranian/saudi arabain style of govt?...or is that not relevant to you?

[Tom Joad]

9. I believe Palestinians have a right to work this out for themselves.

i want U.S. policy to end support for the occupation.

The u.s. already has a coalition of secularists and religious fanatics... in support of the military occupation and dispossession.
See Bush and Olmert.
See aipac and "christians united for israel". http://www.cufi.org

[pelsar]

10. er....thats avoiding the question....

if your acting to end the occupation, as you see it..and your teaming up with religious fanatics your also part of the replacement govt....meaning as i see it you really dont believe in liberal causes and its philosophy....no one believing in liberalism, civil rights etc would so easily let mr palestenain live under the tyranny of a fanatical religious govt.....your telling me that the bedouin in gaza or the christians in Bethlehem can live under a fanatical muslim regime and your attitude is..that its none of your business?

(even though you may have had a part of installing such a regime? (or at least i believe you will hoped that you were part of the forces that removed the occupation and installed a "native govt)

i wont even go into the short sighted aspect of fanatical religious regimes and their tendancy to cause wars.....something that you seem to have no problem being a part of

[Tom Joad]

11. I'm teaming up with religious fanatics???

[pelsar]

12. I'm asking....

i'm fascinated how those on the left can team up with muslim fanatics and their supporters and help empower them and with the hope that they will end the occupation and then rule their "own people" as they see fit...which if its religious fanatics (hamas, islamic jihad, Hizballa etc) means a govt of tyranny.....

and as you stated above...its none of your business, (as long as their of the same nationality/tribe)

[Tom Joad]

13. I'm fascinated how those who support Israeli policies can join antisemites

in common cause.
http://www.netanyahu.org/patrobspeakw.html (just one example of many).

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pelsar]

15. lets try again (got deleted)

first of all, the discussion is not about netanyahus ideologies...my curiosity is with yours. Since your not very forthcoming i find myself having to ask and make some assumptions, so feel free to correct me:

how does someone who considers himself a liberal work with and help empower supporters of religious fanatical parties such as the "party of god (hizballa) hamas, islamic jihad?...once empowered within the palestenian govt and once they start (as hamas has) to implement their religious laws, the enslavement of the Palestinians begins....and i believe your attitude is: its none of my business.

Meaning if they start to hang homosexuals because they're homosexuals (as in iran today) you'll feel no remorse for helping that party gain power and enforce laws such as that?...doesnt seem to be much of a "caring attitude" toward mr/mrs/ms Palestinian now does it?

(the example of iran is quite interesting..one of the first group to go to the gallows was the "liberals" (atlantic monthly-i forget which month), and the tyranny hasnt stopped since.

[Violet_Crumble]

16. This may come as a shock, pelsar...

Since your not very forthcoming i find myself having to ask and make some assumptions, so feel free to correct me:

But if someone either has you on ignore or considers yr bombardment of 'questions' too ridiculous to bother with, that silence does not mean yr always ugly assumptions about other posters are correct. If you want answers to questions and you are genuine about it and want to discuss things rather than hit people over the head, try asking in a less accusatory manner. Give it a try some day...

[Tom Joad]

17. Like talkin with a brick wall, isn't it Violet.

[Tom Joad]

18. And these "questions" seem more like accusations than mere

questions:
In this thread i have been accused of supporting terrorism and religious fanaticism. The "questions" are "you don't seem to mind terror".

It again is the pretty much the same line Bush uses, as you pointed out elsewhere, and as about anyone can plainly see it parallels the idea that who oppose torture are doing the bidding of al queda, or in this case, those who oppose Israeli policies want want women in Burkas. Just a variation of the line "those who oppose the Vietnam War support communist tyranny". There is no logic to this.

Especially when we consider that up until fairly recently most Palestinian politics was secular-based, and there was even more official Israeli opposition to that, at least as fanatical as it is now. What of the years Israel refused to talk to Arafat or Abbas?

Also behind this is the idea that military occupation is necessary as part of the White Man's burden, because the natives (deemed to be "savages") are seen as incapable of governing themselves. Colonial ideological bullshit, piled higher than a cab of a CAT DC-9 Bulldozer.

[Tom Joad]

19. A great American challenges colonialism.

This has to do with the brutal Philippine occupation, but i think it pertains to the whole colonial mentality from Bush to Olmert. The imperial/colonial mentality lives on. There really was no intent to "free" the people of the Philippines, only to subjugate the people and take their resources, and this so-called concern for their freedom is a ruse by the powerful, just fed to the masses. Does anyone think Bush went into Iraq to support "democracy"? Does anyone think this concern with future possible human rights violations of a future Hamas government has anything to do with concern for Palestinians, and not with supporting an indefensible and brutal and inhuman and insane and immoral millitary occupation that is the current Israeli policy.

From Mark Twain:
I left these shores, at Vancouver, a red-hot imperialist. I wanted the American eagle to go screaming into the Pacific. It seemed tiresome and tame for it to content itself with the Rockies. Why not spread its wings over the Philippines, I asked myself? And I thought it would be a real good thing to do.

I said to myself, here are a people who have suffered for three centuries. We can make them as free as ourselves, give them a government and country of their own, put a miniature of the American constitution afloat in the Pacific, start a brand new republic to take its place among the free nations of the world. It seemed to me a great task to which we had addressed ourselves.

But I have thought some more, since then, and I have read carefully the treaty of Paris, and I have seen that we do not intend to free, but to subjugate the people of the Philippines. We have gone there to conquer, not to redeem.

Later Mark Twain signed a statement that read in part:

" steps be taken at once to stop … the killing of prisoners, the
shooting without trial of suspected persons, the use of torture, … the
wanton destruction of private property, and everywhere the barbarous
methods of waging war, which this nation from its infancy has ever
condemned.”

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

21. I'm doing nothing of the sort...

I made a suggestion to a poster whose posts are coming across as demanding, belligerant and accusatory, which explains the deleted post in this thread. I dont' recall consoling anyone or doing anything else, so please try sticking to facts in future :)

[msmcghee]

22. Another great opportunity to answer the question . .

. . gone.

[Violet_Crumble]

23. I didn't realise I'd been asked a question

I was responding to some totally inaccurate comments in yr post about me....

[msmcghee]

24. Read the first sentence in post 20. n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

25. I wasn't asked a question...

...and I'll add here that I won't answer questions if they're asked in a belligerant and accusatory way :)

[pelsar]

26. i've tried in multiple ways over the year(s)

and i tend to get the same answers....avoidence.....and i constantly add the words: "if i am wrong in my assumtions please feel free to correct me."

and the answers are usually (as i remember)

one of disappearing,
changing the subject,
i dont have to answer your questions"
your questions are ridiculous
i've already answered that
if you dont understand i dont have to explain

and the lastest one:
i wont answer a question that is written in a belligerant and accusatory way (maybe its a cultural thing, i dont see it-so much for multiculturalism and tolerence here)
.....

thats all i can remember at this point, maybe i'll actually keep a list of the many types of responses i get that avoid answering, but do respond....a lot of bandwidth is spent avoiding my questions as if they're some kind of "poison"...its not because their written belligerantly its more because they're uncomfortable. Applying the various "left philosophies here to the environment exposes either the hypocrasy or the complexity and how simplistic answers cant be applied, (assuming the philosophy of equal worth)

[Violet_Crumble]

27. Sorry, but the posts in question are belligerent and accusatory...

I'm always up for a bit of constructive discussion, but there's a huge difference between asking questions in a normal back and forth conversation and hounding people with demands to answer 'questions' and saying that if they don't waste their time doing it then the always ugly assumptions made are correct. That sort of tactic is lame, childish, and obnoxious....

ps - Uh, when you added my general rule that I won't respond to belligerent or accusatory 'questions' to yr sudden list of excuses as to why yr questions aren't being answered, it mustn't have occured to you that you didn't ask me any questions in this thread :)

[Tom Joad]

28. Okay, Pelsar, bookmark this. It is so simple.

I support changing U.S. policies that support an illegal and brutal military occupation of Palestinian land.

It is not my place to chose political parties in Palestine (or Israel), and even if i thought it were it would not make much difference, I can't vote in Palestinian or Israeli elections. Again, my aim is to change U.S. policy into something more fair and just that will create a more livable future for all.

I support Palestinians and Israelis in their work for human rights, in their work to implement international law as a way to resolve the conflict. You do not seem to acknowledge that Palestinians are working to solve their own problems with regard to women's rights and other such matters. All these problems are made worse by the policies of my government supporting an illegal occupation, and these policies are what i am in a position to change.

I find obnoxious and disgusting your frequent accusations... that i do not care about Israeli lives or now even accuse me of not caring about Palestinian lives or rights. You have proven you know nothing about me. I find it even more disgusting the libel (which you have no direct input as far as i can see, much to your credit, but just to share what i am putting up with these days) that is circulating on obscure but public hate-boards elsewhere on the internet, specifically, that i have been involved in any kind of violent illegal activity. NEVER have i been even accused of taking part in violent activity, and certainly never arrested for such activity.

This goes with the territory, i suppose, that people who care about human rights in the Middle East will be subject to such defamation. I acknowledge that my Jewish and Arab-American colleagues in this work get it much worse, so I shouldn't complain.

[pelsar]

29. tom...very clear....

and if you'll excuse my moment of sarcasm....that wasnt so hard now was it? To confirm what you wrote, i only know about you what i read on this forum, what you "expose" here, beyond this I know nothing about you nor am I involved in anything circulating about you elsewhere (nor would i be).

That said and in response to what you wrote: I see your views as being very short sighted and dangerous in the long term.

More so, short term views will only cause further bloodshed down the road..ignoring the various actors for some simplistic "right and wrong" versions that makes you feel good or righteous is naive at best.

After gaza after Hizballas attacks even peres said no more pullouts. You might ask why our eternal optimist said that....the one who has worked hardest to accommodate the Palestinians why hes come to that conclusion.

let me help: a chaotic PA, a PA that cant/wont control the kassam shooters will only make matters worse, if they can do it from hebron...which brings me to the simplest of questions...lets apply your "pullout now from the westbank.

lets say there is a pullout within a month or so, which i believe is your ideal...and some group (islamic jihad) doesnt agree to the conditions and starts firing kassams at Tel Aviv...what then?...

this btw way is why almost all israelis across the political spectrum dont want to a pullout. You say you care about "israeli lives"...well this is the basic question with israeli citizens today.....sure we can just lie still and let the kassam fall where they may?.....who would send in a UN force to chase after them and shoot them? Since you dont like it when i presume something, i wont, i shall wait for a comprehensive answer that can actually be applied whatever it is.

as questioned earlier, and you didnt answer, so i dont know if this applies to you, but why would a liberal work with fascist racist religious groups to implement a policy that would bring them to power?....isnt one iran enough? or is it a matter of removing the occupation for these people and what comes next is irrelevant? (I dont know these people, but i would suspect that you would, so perhaps you can answer for them)

[Douglas Carpenter]

30. but is is the Israeli military that carried out the military destruction

of the Palestinian civil administration. Now does that not make it kind of hard for them to keep a control on things? And it is Israel that refused to negotiate in good faith with the Palestinians after Oslo and up until now. Even using Oslo as a pretext to engage in massive settlement expansion, land confiscation and house demolition. More recently it is Israel that broke the vast majority of cease fires when they did occur. And so far whenever Hamas has shown any indication that they are prepared to move in a different direction and chose politics over armed conflict, they have been met with targeted assassinations and military attacks which kill a lot of civilians. And it Israeli security forces which violently and ruthlessly crushes nonviolent demonstrations. Take a look at the tactics used against the protesters of the construction of the apartheid/land confiscation wall and you will surely see what I mean. Take a look at the tactics used against people who nonviolently try to protect their homes and farm land from confiscation or destruction.

It's kind of hard for me to convince some of my Palestinian friends of the need to chose restraint, negotiations and nonviolence given the reality of what restraint, negotiations and nonviolence has delivered for them so far. I always make that argument and always will. I do hope you try to make the same argument on the Israeli side.

Surely Israel must share at least some of the responsibility for Israel's actions and for the current situation.

[pelsar]

31. I'm not a fan of much of what happens in the westbank...

especially when the settlers are involved and the IDF looks the other way..and i seen things which are an embarrasement to me (to put in the simplist of terms)....but all of those dwarf a pullout at this stage from the westbank in the short term and long term, the damage it would do to the whole area would be horrendous and who knows what kind of govts would arise out of the urban warfare.

I'm also no fan of putting the blame on someone else. Everything that happens in the middle east is the result of a previous action and everything and anything can be blamed on someone else...its a very very bad habit....the buck has to stop someplace.

the israeli govt does it (the last war is full of everybody blaming everybody else), the IDF military is now doing it and the palestenains are doing it...the thing is, none of it is acceptable to me.

chaos in gaza...palestenain problem, sex scandle in the israeli govt...israeli problem and so on and so forth.....nothing is gained by passing the buck other than keeping ones own seat.

[breakaleg]

32. in response to this line in your post ....

"After gaza after Hizballas attacks even peres said no more pullouts. You might ask why our eternal optimist said that....the one who has worked hardest to accommodate the Palestinians why hes come to that conclusion."

You make it sound like a pullout would be some kind of favor to the Palestinians instead of their legal right. If you view it as a favor and expect something in return, then there is the problem. If you view it as the occupation violating international law and a pullout compliance with that law, then Israel should do it because they are legally required to do it, and not for something in return.

If some guy held me captive in my own home, used my water, heat, ate my food etc. for years and years, would I be expected to thank him if he finally left? It's unrealistic to expect that of Palestinians. Israel needs to realize this.

[pelsar]

33. law is subject to interpretation....

based on the environment...and what will be the result....(a criminal declared innocent, on a technicality who has a good chance of repeating the crime can be kept in jail)


so if i am to understand you correctly your view is that whatever happens after the palesenains get the westbank back is irrelevant to you. If the chaos that is happening today spreads to the westbank and a 3 way defacto low level war is a direct result with fatah/Hama/IDF all attacking and killing.....thats seems to ok with you.

good for you, you dont live out here.....What do we expect in return? non violence.....

let me clarify your idea: even if it means more killing on a far worser scale, the palesetenains should get back the westbank....(if this your "liberal" point of view-you really should check the definition)

perhaps i'm in the minority here (but then i'm also a potential victim and killer)...show of hands please?...who agrees with you here?

[Douglas Carpenter]

34. obviously the Palestinians will need help to rebuild their civil

administration--much of it was destroyed by the Israeli military.

They will need to have an agreement that allows independent economic development which could never have happened under the military occupation of the past 39 plus years.

So far they have not even be offered anything that would remotely grant them even the possibility of independent economic development and along with it political stability and viability.

The continued settlement expansion and wall expansion and apartheid road expansion with all of its land confiscation and housing demolition, much less military actions which are almost an inevitable part of an aggressive military occupation will only strengthen the hands of the likes of Hamas and push anything remotely resembling a just and lasting peace into oblivion.

[pelsar]

35. you might have had a point...

had israel not left gaza...and lebanon...in fact that was precisly the points that was made for oslo and after: Let the palestenains/s. lebanese run their own affairs, get out and their social and economic development will then "overtake" the need for "trying to kill israelis and jews."

lebanons hizballa and the aftermath of the gaza pullout showed that theory to be a shamble. There will always be those groups who dont believe that whatever the agreement or events, its not enough (shaba farms) for them, and they have the right to keep on attacking. If they cant be controlled, the end result is continued attacks on israel.

S. Lebanon and Gaza have made it very clear what a westbank pullout will bring....and i have yet to see anybody here even address that possibility....and what would israels "legal" course of action would be....and i've been asking for over a year now.

[Douglas Carpenter]

36. are you advocating the annexation of the occupied territories?

If so, are you supporting full citizenship rights for all the residents of those territories?

Obviously Gaza-type unilateral disengagements does not satisfy either the security needs of Israeli citizens or the political/economic needs of even one single Palestinian for a number reasons; most importantly the extreme restrictions on freedom of movement precludes even the remote possibility of independent economic development and along with it even the remote possibility of independent political and economic viability.

I actually agree with you that Gaza-type unilateral disengagement scenarios are unworkable and satisfy no one.

Since you do not believe that Israel can safely withdraw from the Occupied Territories--is annexation and along with it full citizenship rights for the residents of the Occupied Territories what you are suggesting?

[pelsar]

37. my suggestion is simply "not yet"

the palestenains of the westbank and gaza should have their own country-today...except that the realities on the ground of israel leaving would simply create a territory controlled and owned by various factions, be it ideological, financial oriented or tribal, each with their own geographic area.....warlords, some localized some paid for by syria some by iran.....such a system would insure chaos, violence, for many for a very long time.

my suggestion, which is hardly a "sure thing" is that the palestenains have to somehow get their "house in order", a strong central govt to control the various factions, to take away their weapons, etc. No society can exist with multiple armed factions each with a strong base running loose. Contrary to the looney left, a fractured palestenian society is not in our interest, it just insures a low level conflict with no end in sight. Whereas a strong central govt can, if they want, can limit the conflict, and that is the only way its going to end.

How to go about that?.....not only dont I have an answer, i will raise the possibility that for the short run, there may not be one. There is no natural law that says all cultures and subcultures have to learn to "live with each other......" it may very well be that the palestenian society is so fractured along tribal/religious/financial/cultural/militant lines that it will take a few generations to smooth things out, or a massive media campaign to modify the culture or an outside force from jordan to put things in order. On the other hand.....i'm not an anthropoligist, though i find the subject interesting, and what it will take to "fix" their society is beyond my knowledge, perhaps its not as bad as what i am reading/seeing.....

whatever the means, they need a stong central govt, without that giving them more territory to govern is simply expanding the chaos.

[Douglas Carpenter]

38. as time goes by...

any two-state solution becomes less and less viable with the expansion of settlements and bypass roads and the creation of more walls and fences and the expo-facto (and sometimes official and sometimes unofficial) annexation of land and the lack of the most basic requirements for creating an independent and viable economy and along with it,democratic political institutions -- The longer these factors continue unabated, the less viable; not the more viable becomes a genuinely viable and independent Palestinian state.

There certainly are divisions in Palestinian society. But frankly from my observation it is not as bad as some seem to presume. Nor do I think it is any worse than most national movements coming out of a long period of conflict. With a largely decimated civil authority and a local authority, lacking even the possibility of independent economic development and a civil authority lead by someone like Abu Mazen who is frankly seen even by most ordinary Fatah loyalist as someone shoved down their throats by America and Israel -- it would be hard for any emerging nation to strike a balance and avoid a certain amount of confusion and chaos..

From my point of view and based on conversation with a wide cross section of Palestinians with a variety of points of view, a vote for Hamas was seen as a vote for genuine independence and a rejection of corruption. It was not except in very limited circles an endorsement of fundamentalist political Islam. Palestinians are a socially conservative and religious people, indeed. But I do not believe them to be fundamentally a fundamentalist people. I believe that attempts by America and Israel to meddle in their internal affairs have largely backfired. The landslide victory of Hamas in the recent elections was due in part in my opinion to a rejection of Fatah corruption and it was due in part to Hamas' very successful social work with the less fortunate of Palestinian society. But I believe that more than anything else it was a way to tell both America and Israel to mind their own business. A Jordanian solution would not be welcomed either. There is no loss love with the Hashemite Kingdom. As I am sure you know.

If settlement expansion and land acquisitions continue, if expo-facto annexation continues, if contiguous Palestinian areas continues to be degraded; a two-state solution will simply become impossible.

[pelsar]

39. its not so much that i dont agree with you...

but the nature of the various movements, armed with know-how, money, semi independence, influence from outside, makes their internal divisions far more dangerous....other movements, that i know of, once the "occupation" was removed didnt keep on attacking the ex-occupiers

thats the problem.

and the infrastructure? walls, settlements?....look at gaza, they're all temporary.

[Douglas Carpenter]

40. do you believe that it is politically possible to remove the 400,000 or so

settlers from the West Bank? If that number continues to grow will that not become even more politically difficult? Correct me if I am wrong but I think the settler movement and their allies view the West Bank as much more central to their claim than Gaza.

Palestinians in Gaza simply do not consider themselves a separate nation from the Palestinians of the West Bank. So to every Palestinian, no matter how moderate, the Palestinian territories are still occupied and they would feel that way even if they had an intact infrastructure and civil administration and freedom of movement; which they do not have. And this is taking the moderate definition of Palestine as being the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem -- basically the 67 border//22% of the former British Mandate of Palestine. A 28 mile long/4 mile wide strip is simply not going to satisfy the national aspirations of even the most compromising of Palestinians, even those living in that 28 mile long/4 mile wide strip of land. Given that almost every Palestinian, again including even the most moderate, are simply not prepared to believe that Israel will return the West Bank and East Jerusalem if they will just wait and be patient.

[pelsar]

41. land exchange...

eventually i suspect there will be "land exchange"....much of the settlers staying put and palestine getting land from the present israel.
again i dont disagree with you that the palestenains see gaza and the westbank as a single entity.....but for every "positive step" there has to be some recipication..its a confidence building aspect...and its up to the leaders to make it happen. Nothing is going to happen in a single step, that would also be foolish.

and this is where the palestenian leadership has failed miserably. Israel left gaza under much protesting and consternation with the promise of a better future.... that positive move, with all its limitations was not recipicated in turn...in fact it appears to have been in many respects a to have been a mistake. The palestenian lives in gaza are now much worse then pre pullout, which in turn was worser still then pre intifada II which was worser pre intifada I.....

what the gaza pullout made clear is there will always be those who claim:

is simply not going to satisfy the national aspirations...those national asperations are taught to the population it doesnt appear out of thin air. It is up to the PA to educate its population to accept the various positive moves as the israeli govt did. Whatever the negotiated settlement in the end, there will be those armed groups that dont agree and will claim:


i....not going to satisfy the national aspirations

____

now lets face it, we all know that unless there is a serious change in the palestenian leadership and "national asperations", any westbank pullout and its aftermath will be mean kassams an mortars on israeli cities and it wont happen overnight...(you choose the militia that wont "be satisfied, will consider it a sin, etc.)

the eternal question is, as those kassam fly.....what then?

are you seriously saying that if israel could they should pullout tomorrow?

[Douglas Carpenter]

42. not tomorrow...but perhaps next week

seriously the Palestinian civil administration needs to be rebuilt and I believe that a pullout can begin while that is happening.

With both the Oslo Accord and the unilateral disengagement the Palestinians actually saw with their own eyes things get worse, not better while the essentials of occupation remained intact and perhaps even strengthened. The unilateral disengagement from Gaza happened with almost no coordination between Israel and the Palestinian Authority. Targetted assasination and other military actions were taking place in the Gaza right on the eve of implimentation. It was not part of any peace agreement and it still left the Palestinians with a decimated infrastructure and decimated civil administration and locked behind a very large electric wire fence with no way for 99.9% of Palestinians to leave this 28 mile long/4 mile wide reservation thus absolutely no economic or political viability. And by Mr. Sharon's own admission this maneuver was a strategic redeployment with forces redeploying to the West Bank and settlement expansion on the West Bank increasing. Even the most moderate Palestinians saw the Gaza redeployment as a political ploy to satisfy international and perhaps domestic Israeli pressure. They certainly did not see it as a good will gesture.

But yes I do believe that a fully contiguous, independent and independently-economically viable Palestinian state based on the 67 border in a situation in which the Palestinians can see with their own eyes real on-the-ground improvement and a real end to occupation will undercut the basis of support for those who wish to continue shooting off kassams.

There could be an international/UN force that remains in place for the next several years monitoring and protecting until both parties are satisfied with their security needs. Please remember that the Palestinians, even the most moderate, don't trust Israel anymore and probably less than Israel trust the Palestinians.

[pelsar]

43. please be more honest....

and please address the issues i write directly......if your interested in having a discussion with an israeli then this is the minumum i can expect:

Gaza:
left the Palestinians with a decimated infrastructure....perhaps you would like to explain how when israel left the sewer/water/electrical grid/road system was "decimated"...fact is it wasnt, so why write it?

locked behind a very large electric wire fence....no economic viability your implying that israel locked them in.....may i suggest that you at least included egypt in the description...omitting them is not very honest.

Even the most moderate Palestinians saw the Gaza redeployment as a political ploy to satisfy ...... domestic Israeli pressure
yes, thats how democracies work....you should be praising this example of democracy in action as opposed to an attempt to show it in a negative way.

Palestinians actually saw with their own eyes things get worse, not better ...thats because the PA scewed up, just like in gaza. What avg palestenian saw was the IDF actually leave their cities and towns, most palestenians have little to do with the settlements, their lives could have be improved vastly with the PA taking over and the IDF out of sight....it was the PAs job of leadership to insure internal security and stop the attacks on israelis...they failed and that brought the IDF back in..same story we saw in gaza, same story we saw in lebanon......

but as per the tradition here, the main concerns of the israelis are never mentioned.....

after israel left gaza and there were kassams falling for about a week and half before israel started with sonic booms....what in your opinion should israel have done?

furthermore, you actually believe a intl force will be able to stop the launching of kassams from the westbank in to israel?....how? will this UN personal actually shoot the launchers?...and when some inevitibly do get through, israel should just accept them?...if so for how long and how many israelis killed?

[Douglas Carpenter]

44. What is the alternative, to occupy and fight forever?

A political process leading toward genuine viable independence and followed by an international peace keeping force sounds more like a reasonable idea to me. I really do believe that this situation should be solved by a political process. I simply do not agree that a military situation will produce lasting results for anyones benefit, including Israel.

Much of the Gaza infrastructure and civil administration was largely decimated or at least seriously degraded by a combination of military strikes and inaccessibility; and now depletion of funds.

Yes Gaza does have a border with Egypt. Egypt should relax it a bit. But also Israel has strongly opposed any relaxation of that border. And the fact remains that 99.9% of Gaza Palestinians are unable to leave this 28 mile long/4 mile wide strip of land. Every human rights organization I have come across especially the Israeli ones like B'tselem do place the prime responsibility for the lack of freedom of movement on Israel. The West Bank was the main destination for most Gaza Palestinians. Now even a brief trip there is virtually impossible even though it is only one to two hour away by car. And 39 years of occupation simply did not allow the occupied territories to develop viable economic independence.

The point I was making is not that Israel shouldn't respond to public demands for moves toward peace. Of course they should. But the Gaza disengagement was not a workable plan and did not include coordination with the Palestinians or attempts to address any issues that would make an economy in Gaza viable. At the same time expansion of West Bank settlements undermined whatever perception of good will on the Palestinian side that could have emerged out of the Gaza redeployment.

Sooner or later attempts have to be made to bring the major factions into the political process. Targeted assassination that end up killing a lot of civilian following cease fires and moves in the political direction do not help the matter. Perhaps, I cannot say for sure, but just perhaps, if cease fires had been respected and there was the will to politically engage, some, maybe even much of the violence from the Palestinian side might have been avoided.

It is possible to bring Hamas and other factions into the political process. Draconian measures, collective punishment and military strikes only strengthens their hand. It is nothing unique to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict that political parties have emerged out of armed militias; even ones with extremist agendas. In fact that has been the history of many national movements.

[Douglas Carpenter]

45. for those who are Interested Sara Roy of Harvard who has

written several books on the Gaza has an excellent article

The Gaza Economy"
Palestine Center Information Brief No. 143 (02 October 2006)

link: http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/images/informationbrief.php?ID=169

"Dr. Sara Roy is a Professor at the Center for Middle Eastern Studies at Harvard University. Dr. Roy has worked in the Gaza Strip and West Bank since 1985 conducting research primarily on the economic, social, and political development of the Gaza Strip and on U.S. foreign aid to the region. Dr. Roy has written extensively on the Palestinian economy, particularly in Gaza, and has documented its development over the last three decades."

"Overview: In one of many reports and accounts of economic life in the Gaza Strip that I have recently read, I was struck by a description of an old man standing on the beach in Gaza throwing his oranges into the sea. The description leapt out at me because it was this very same scene I myself witnessed some 21 years ago during my very first visit to the territory. It was the summer of 1985 and I was taken on a tour of Gaza by a friend named Alya. As we drove along Gaza's coastal road I saw an elderly Palestinian man standing at the shoreline with some boxes of oranges next to him. I was puzzled by this and asked Alya to stop the car. One by one, the elderly Palestinian took an orange and threw it into the water. His was not an action of playfulness but of pain and regret. His movements were slow and labored as if the weight of each orange was more than he could bear. I asked my friend why he was doing this and she explained that he was prevented from exporting his oranges to Israel and rather than watch them rot in his orchards, the old man chose to cast them into the sea. I have never forgotten this scene and the impact it had on me.

Politics and Economics

Over two decades later, after peace agreements, economic protocols, road maps and disengagements, Gazans are still casting their oranges into the sea. Yet Gaza is no longer where I found it so long ago but someplace far worse and more dangerous. One year after Israel’s 2005 “disengagement” from the Strip, which was hailed by President Bush as a great opportunity for “the Palestinian people to build a modern economy that will lift millions out of poverty create the institutions and habits of liberty,”i a “Dubai on the Mediterranean”ii according to Thomas Friedman, Gaza is undergoing acute and debilitating economic declines marked by unprecedented levels of poverty, unemployment, loss of trade, and social deterioration especially with regard to the delivery of health and educational services.

The optimism that surrounded the disengagement was also reflected in the Palestinian Authority’s plan for reviving Gaza’s economy known as the Gaza Strip Economic Development Strategy, published soon after the disengagement was completed.iii This document, less a development plan than an articulation of objectives, had, among its primary goals “chieving stability, contiguity and control over land to support the Palestinian economy,” and “dopting effective economic policies to enable the rehabilitation of the Palestinian economy to achieve comprehensive development.”iv

Needless to say the Authority has not been able to realize its objectives given the exigencies imposed. However, it is important to point out that even in the absence of many constraints, rational planning of the sort described in the Authority’s plan is simply futile in an environment that is itself so irrational, typified by increasingly acute unpredictability, vulnerability and dependency, themselves resulting from a continued and unchanged occupation. This is not a new problem but an old one that requires a new approach that argues that as long as the political environment remains unchanged (or worsened), economic development is precluded and economic planning should focus on areas less vulnerable to external pressure (e.g. labor force training, institutional development). Otherwise, planning becomes nothing more than a theoretical and increasingly abstract exercise that promises few if any meaningful results. In this context, international aid can play a critical role in helping people survive but with little if any structural impact on the economy. "

link to full article:

http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/images/informationbrief.php?ID=169

[Douglas Carpenter]

46. (“Movement and Access from Gaza”) signed on 15 Nov 2005

“The crossings agreement (“Movement and Access from Gaza”) signed on 15 November 2005 specified that Rafah crossing would be used for the passage of people in and out of Gaza—but that goods, vehicles and trucks to and from Egypt would have to pass through the Israeli crossing at Kerem Shalom, under full Israeli supervision. As far as people traffic is concerned, entry to the Strip would be permitted only to those holding Palestinian ID. Any foreign nationals would only be allowed to enter “by exception in agreed categories with prior notification to the Government of Israel….The Palestinian Authority will notify the Government of Israel 48 hours in advance of a person in the excepted categories—diplomats, foreign investors, foreign representatives of recognized international organizations and humanitarian cases…….Although there would be no direct Israeli presence in the Rafah crossing, it was agreed that “cameras will be installed to monitor the search process, so that Israel would be able to monitor all movement from its inspection point to a few kilometers away. Effectively, therefore, entry to the Gaza Strip would continue to remain under Israeli control.” Pages 134-135

“The Gaza Strip depends economically on its contact with the West Bank, which involves trucks and goods passing through Erez and Karni crossing on the Gaza-Israel border, making their way to the West Bank through Israel. According to the World Bank’s representative in the occupied territories, Nigel Roberts, “before the Intifada broke out…some 225 trucks a day passed through the crossings, compared to only 35 a day in the six months prior to disengagement. Since the disengagement, however, the situation deteriorated even further…only about a dozen trucks per day have bee allowed into Israel to travel to the West Bank.” Page 136

“The 15 November 2005 agreement did indeed specify that “Israel will allow passage of convoys (to and from Gaza and to and from the West Bank). However this plan was frozen. “Saeb Erekat, the Palestinian negotiator, said he was disgusted with the situation. There’s no security issue for Israel.” He said. “They will have names submitted in advance, they (Israel) screen the passengers, no one leaves the bused and they’re escorted by Israel to Tarquimiya (in the south of the West Bank)….And how should the Palestinians expect to make an agreement if someone so high up as (Secretary of State) Rice arranges something of so little risk to Israel and nothing happens?” page 137

“The situation in Gaza remained as Mahmoud Abbas described it shortly after the Israeli pullout: “ The Strip is one large prison, and the army’s departure does not change this situation” page 138

from -- The Road Map to Nowhere by Professor Tanya Reinhart of Tel Aviv University

Amazon link:

http://www.amazon.com/Road-Map-Nowhere-Israel-Palestine/dp/1844670767/ref=sr_11_1/002-4750258-7334423?ie=UTF8

[LetsThink]

55. We Could Return to the History of How Gaza Became......

..... as it is today. That may have limited use in finding a solution to the present suffering of both Palestinian and Israeli citizens.

However, Israel has sought to find peaceful ways out of the conflict and ways to find co-existence. From my reading (admitedly limited) of the situation, the Palestinians have not sought co-existence with Israel - they have continued to be dominated by one set of terrorist factions after another. This is not to say that I don't cry for their plight: I do. But I fail to see what other constructive courses of action Israel could safely have undertaken.

There were many promising programs until this most recent escalation of violence, initiated by terrorist attacks on Israel- Here I am thinking of the programs which brought Palestinian and Israeli youths together in outings to observe desert wildlife; these programs and many others were modeled on those successful programs implemented in Northern Ireland, which brought a stop to generations of violence in that region. However, it is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to pursue such actions when one or another group continues stating a desire for the absolute destruction of the other party. OK-- not desire-- their stated INTENT or GOAL of destroying Israel. Such parties taking a leadership position do not help move both sides toward peaceful solutions. They galvanize opposition and support for those LEAST likely to take a peaceful road.

It's when there is a human face on one's enemy that harm is less likely from any encounter. The closer the contact, the more likely each is to see her/his own reflection in the other's eyes....... That is why, in all conflict resolution, there is no substitute for human contact between opposing parties.

- thoughts from an unsophisticated reader of news ........

[Douglas Carpenter]

58. I hope I don't surprise you by saying that I simply do not share that view

at all. I will confess openly that I am not neutral anymore. Once I was. But I actually spent about 20 years working in the Middle East and over that time I came to know a number of Palestinians. I would listen to their stories. But frankly they were telling me things that I had trouble believing. Then some years back I came across an American from the Mid West who was actually a fairly religious Christian who had done humanitarian aid work in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. They told of events that they had witnessed with their eyes and knew first hand to be true that matched exactly what these Palestinians had been telling me all along. I decided to take a look into these matters myself independently and after awhile -- I will confess, I was not neutral anymore and my sympathies grew toward the Palestinian People and the cause of Palestine.

Although it is a little hard to say where to start regarding current events. But we could start for instance when the Oslo Accord was signed on the White House lawn in 1993. There was tremendous optimism throughout the Palestinian community both in Palestine and in the Palestinian diaspora that finally peace might be at hand and a Palestinian state was just around the corner. But the ink had barely dried from the signing and Israel was massively expanding its settlements and road construction in the Gaza and the West Bank--roads Palestinians are not allowed to use. And along with all of this came massive demolition of Palestinian homes and confiscation of Palestinian land. Oslo was actually used as a pretext by the Israeli government to tighten travel restrictions within the Occupied Palestinian Territories and even stop almost all travel between the Gaza and the West Bank and vice versa. This all had a devastating affect on the Palestinian economy and sent unemployment skyrocketing. Needless to say such developments quickly convinced many Palestinians that Israel was not acting in good faith. Still Palestinians were told to wait and be patient for the final talks in 2000. Finally at Camp David in 2000 it became clear that the Palestinians were not really getting a genuinely independent and viable state after all. Here is an article which explains some of the details of what the Palestinians were actually being offered -- an interesting article by Seth Ackerman called -- The Myth of the Generous Offer:

link: http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1113

I should mention that the Palestinian Authority has negotiated cease fires with the various groups including Hamas on a number of occasions. Almost without exception it has been the Israeli forces which broke the cease fire usually carrying out targeted assassinations with military strikes which ended up killing a number of civilians.

Here is just one example: "The first announcement that the Palestinian organizations reached a ceasefire agreement came on 25 June 2003. Hamas spokesman observed that it was noteworthy that they had accepted the three-month lull without receiving any guarantees from Israel...The Israeli immediate reaction was instantaneous and decisive. Within minute of the Palestinian announcement, 'Israeli helicopters fired missiles at two cars near the southern Gaza City of Khan Yunis, killing two people including a woman." from: The Road Map to Nowhere by Professor Tanya Reinhart of Tel Aviv University -- Amazon link:
http://www.amazon.com/Road-Map-Nowhere-Israel-Palestine/dp/1844670767/ref=sr_11_1/002-4750258-7334423?ie=UTF8

If you are interested in hearing a debate on the broader issues of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict -- here is a debate between Former Israeli Foreign Minister Shlomo Ben-Ami and Professor Norman Finkelstein:

http://www.democracynow.org/finkelstein-benami.shtml

If you are interested in reading a history of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict from a point of view different than what you will usually hear in America -- Here is a somewhat long (10 pages) article by Professor Ilan Pappe of Haifa University -- What Really Happened Fifty Years Ago?

http://www.ameu.org/page.asp?iid=35&aid=427&pg=1

Here are a couple of other sites of Israeli organization that I think are worth taking a look at:



http://www.btselem.org/english/About_BTselem/Index.asp

Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions:

http://www.icahd.org/eng

Machsom Watch

http://www.machsomwatch.org/eng/homePageEng.asp?link=homePage&lang=eng

[tomcalab]

49. Albert Einstein's View of Israel.

Einstein said this, so there is no need to blame me. I just thought people might want to hear what one of the most intelligent men to ever live thought about why we need a state of Israel.

"Another aspect of Einstein's religious life was his relationship to the Jewish people. Although he did not observe Jewish traditions, Einstein appreciated the love of truth and justice that he saw as constituting the core of Judaism. He claimed that Jews have been united throughout the centuries by a reverence for truth, a democratic ideal of social justice, and a desire for personal independence. In Einstein's view, the greatest Jews, including Moses, Spinoza, and Marx, were those who sacrificed themselves for these ideals. Above all, Einstein believed that Judaism involves a strong sense of the sanctity of life and a rejection of all superstition. He contended that the creation of a Jewish state would preserve these values for the world. Einstein thus had a cultural and intellectual vision for Israel, rather than a political one. The greatest danger posed by anti-Semitism, he believed, was the threat it posed to the survival of Jewish ideals; thus Israel must serve as a region sheltered from Europe's deep-seated anti-Semitism, must constitute a seat of modern intellectual life and a spiritual center for the Jews."

http://www.sparknotes.com/biography/einstein/section11.rhtml

By the way, although Einstein was a Jew, he did not practice Judaism.

[LetsThink]

47. Hasn't Israel Suffered Tremendously From the Iraq War......

..... and the US presence in the Middle East? After all- it is the US military arrival in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iraq which has de-stabilized the region, creating an escalating security climate for Israel-- right? Now-- we may search for reasons as to why the US took up a presence in those countries-- why and/or how we have come to be present in the middle east but-- I don't think it was in Israel's interest, really.

The Repubs would very much like to split the Israeli issue as a convenient way to explain why we ended up in the mess created for the country during the present administration and Rebub-dominated congress. They would have us believe that our ally, Israel called us to the area. But, that explanation doesn't really fit the facts or events as recorded, to my knowledge.

Our reasons for being in the middle east to begin with include the following, loosely related facts: Unfinished business in the area handed down from Bush Sr. to son; Our economic dependence on oil; Bush Jr.'s foreign policy ambitions (as in a shining star of democracy.....), and a guy who was a lot of talk and a nasty, horrible, ruthless dictator. The US religious right would add to this list something about prophesy.

So, at this point, Israel is living a kind of nightmare, I'd bet-- The US has stirred up a hornet's nest of trouble among their neighbors; not that there weren't troubles before- but the volume has gone way up lately. So, it may be with a sense of panic that the average Israeli citizen reads of pressure for the US to draw down its mid-east military presence.

Now policymakers here in the US seem to be sliding toward admission that we have civil war in Iraq. In comments yesterday or today, Virginia Senator Warner seemed almost ready to sign a statement admiting our original mission (Congressional authorization?) did not include intervention in civil war. But, how can we exit? Could the situation be turned to some good?

Jim Webb, our candidate for the other Virginia Senate seat, envisions a measured withdrawl of US military troops, while engaging surrounding countries in vigorous diplomatic relations and shifting resources to a more energetic focus on combating global terrorism. I think he also envisions using foreign aide (US and multinational coalition aide) to strengthen regional infrastructure, medical and economic supports to a greater extent than we have in recent years. This strategy would perhaps take longer but would have the advantage of building a solid foundation toward future goals and positive relations among all the region's member-states and tribes. It has a better chance of success than other proposed measures. This would also have the benefit of not leaving our ally Israel standing alone with a bag of spoiled goods to clean up-- and angry neighbors-- after the big party........

Just this citizen's opinion......

[shergald]

48. The assumption that supporting the rights of Palestinians is..

tantamount to supporting radical or fundamentalist Islam is somewhat rediculous, in my opinion. But to suggest that Palestinians should not be permitted self-determination in terms of having their own state or country, because there is fear that it will become radicalized by Hamas or some other extremist religious group is really an after-the-fact thought. Given the geographical and political reality on the West Bank of today, how can there be a Palestinian state? For that matter, no major Israeli political party, Labor, Likud, or Kadima, supports the establishment of a Palestinian state, which is clearly declared in their written political platforms.

There is no need to find rationales to justify the disenfranchisement of the Palestinian people of their land and denial of statehood. That disenfranchisement was already a part of the Zionist project long before Israel's declaration of independence.

[LetsThink]

50. But Israel Has Openly Had the Objective of Peaceful.....

.... Coexistence, not eradication of any group of people in that region. After years of suicide bombers and other violence from groups based outside Israel, the country has become more military perhaps- in order to continue to survive.

In the recent conflict with Lebanon for instance, over 4,000 Israeli troops refused to fight and were jailed or sent home by their commanders. Why? They found out civilians were in the areas where Hamas was most prevalently active and they would not put civilians in danger.

[Douglas Carpenter]

51. there certainly are many brave and heroic Israeli military people who have

refused to serve in military operations that they do not condone. I believe you will find that most of those who refused did so because they feel very strongly that the Israeli government was involved in aggressive, illegal and immoral actions.

Here is an interview with Former Israeli Air Force Captain Yonatan Shapira who has lead such an effort -- watch/listen/read:

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/08/09/1422204

Here is an article by Captain Shapira:

http://www.counterpunch.org/shapira01232004.html

Here is the website of the organization of both Israeli and Palestinians Captain Shapira helped found -- Combatants for Peace:

http://www.combatantsforpeace.org/

If you are interested in hearing a debate on the broader issues of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict -- here is a debate between Former Israeli Foreign Minister Shlomo Ben-Ami and Professor Norman Finkelstein:

http://www.democracynow.org/finkelstein-benami.shtml


And here is an interesting article by Seth Ackerman called -- The Myth of the Generous Offer:

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1113

[LetsThink]

62. Yes! These Brave Israeli Soldiers Acted On Conscience......

.....Not on some ambition or greed. They acted on some very universal notions of humanity - the very same generousity of spirit behind setting up projects which would bring Israeli and Palestinian youths together for joint problem-solving. I find this human spirit very hopeful!

[shergald]

52. You may have missed this recent condemnation of Israel's

continued efforts to make Greater Israel, from the Jordan River to the sea, a reality, in spite of international law, at the expense of the Palestinians.

A Letter from 18 Writers

The latest chapter of the conflict between Israel and Palestine began when Israeli forces abducted two civilians, a doctor and his brother, from Gaza. An incident scarcely reported anywhere, except in the Turkish press. The following day the Palestinians took an Israeli soldier prisoner--and proposed a negotiated exchange against prisoners taken by the Israelis--there are approximately 10,000 in Israeli jails. That this "kidnapping" was considered an outrage, whereas the illegal military occupation of the West Bank and the systematic appropriation of its natural resources--most particularly that of water--by the Israeli Defense (!) Forces is considered a regrettable but realistic fact of life, is typical of the double standards repeatedly employed by the West in face of what has befallen the Palestinians, on the land allotted to them by international agreements, during the last seventy years.

Today outrage follows outrage; makeshift missiles cross sophisticated ones. The latter usually find their target situated where the disinherited and crowded poor live, waiting for what was once called Justice. Both categories of missile rip bodies apart horribly--who but field commanders can forget this for a moment? Each provocation and counter-provocation is contested and preached over. But the subsequent arguments, accusations and vows, all serve as a distraction in order to divert world attention from a long-term military, economic and geographic practice whose political aim is nothing less than the liquidation of the Palestinian nation.

This has to be said loud and clear, for the practice, only half declared and often covert, is advancing fast these days, and, in our opinion, it must be unceasingly and eternally recognized for what it is and resisted.

PS: As Juliano Mer Khamis, director of the documentary film Arna's Children, asked: "Who is going to paint the 'Guernica' of Lebanon?"

John Berger
Noam Chomsky
Harold Pinter
José Saramago
Eduardo Galeano
Arundhati Roy
Naomi Klein
Howard Zinn
Charles Glass
Richard Falk
Gore Vidal
Russell Banks
Thomas Keneally
Chris Abani
Carolyn Forché
Martín Espada
Jessica Hagedorn
Toni Morrison

This letter has been printed in newspapers throughout the world, including Le Monde, El País, The Independent, La Repubblica, and in American, so far only in the Nation, a liberal magazine.

[shergald]

53. PS.

Yes, there are many brave Israeli soldiers who have refused to serve in situations that result in the killing of civilians, or in the case of the West Bank, their subjugation. Regarding the last episodes of suicide bombings during the al Aqsa Intifada starting in 2000, those incidents, which must be condemned, did not occur until at least 27 Palestinian children, rock throwing boys, were killed by the IDF, most as a result of being shot in the head. Many more were wounded. In the first three months, 159 Palestinian boys had an eye shot out, presumably by rubber bullets. One cannot blame Israeli soldiers who refuse to serve in battles involving Palestinian children, where they are taking aim and shooting at their heads. Such behavior not only inspires suicide bombings, but it is dispicable in principle.

[Spinoza]

54. 'Inspires suicide bombings'?

The devil made me do it.

[shergald]

59. The devil made me do it?

From an article by Rami Khouri of the Daily Star (Beruit):

“For anyone interested in the facts about the impact of Israeli policies on Palestinian children, a good place to start is the carefully checked data disseminated by the Palestinian Nongovernmental Organization Network (www.palestinemonitor.org). Their data is compiled and verified on the ground by the Ramallah-based Health Development Information and Policy Institute, which has been honored by the World Health Organization for its work in promoting Palestinian health needs. So these people know what they are talking about when it comes to health conditions on the ground in Israeli-occupied Palestine. Some of the facts they provide are as follows.

In just the first two years of the second intifada, from September 2000 to November 2002:

• 383 Palestinian children (under the age of 18) were killed by the Israeli army and Israeli settlers, i.e. almost 19% of the total Palestinians killed; those figures have increased since then.

• Approximately 36% of total Palestinians injured (estimated at more than 41,000) are children; 86 of these children were under the age of ten; 21 infants under the age of 12 months have been killed.

• 245 Palestinian students and school children have been killed; 2,610 pupils have been wounded on their way to or from school.

• The Israeli policy of widespread closure has paralyzed the Palestinian health system, with children particularly vulnerable to this policy of collective punishment. Internal closures have severely disrupted health plans which affect over 500,000 children, including vaccination programs, dental examinations and early diagnosis for children when starting schools.

• During the first two months of the intifada, the rate of upper respiratory infections in children increased from 20% to 40%. Almost 60% of children in Gaza suffer parasitic infections.

• An overwhelming number of Palestinian children show symptoms of trauma such as sleep disorders, nervousness, decrease in appetite and weight, feelings of hopelessness and frustration, and abnormal thoughts of death.

• There have been 36 cases of Palestinian women in labor delayed at checkpoints and refused permission to reach medical facilities or for ambulances to reach them. At least 14 of these women gave birth at the checkpoint with eight of the births resulting in the death of the newborn infants.

The Israeli army killing of Palestinian children continues apace. In its annual report May 16, the respected global human rights organization Amnesty International accused the Israeli army of killing 190 Palestinians, including 50 children, last year (2005).”

You excuse this, Spinoza? Are you part of the Israel Project propaganda effort?

[LetsThink]

56. Again.......Hard to Know the Context of Such Reports.....

.... Shooting at children is as dispicable as raising those same children to believe from diapers to adulthood that Israelis (& others) are the mortal enemy, an enemy to be destroyed-- Not encountered and reasoned with; not bargained with nor shared humanity-- but, only destroyed. I think in teaching babies such hatred one has in many ways sent them to the streets to encounter whomever may be found, long before they can walk.

The next most dispicable thing is to teach young people that blowing themselves up-- and taking as many others as possible to the grave at the same time, brings good to this world.

I cry for the people, for the families, for the innocents and for all the potential lost when lives are snuffed out-- for WHAT? How do such acts help anyone?

So-- shooting children in the streets may be an act of fear, for who knows what device may be lurking just beneath the clothing on those children....? When the only thing Israelis hear is a statement of the Palestinian desire for their destruction?

[Tom Joad]

57. Palestinian people are much more willing to comprimise than

we are led to believe.

But watching your parents humiliated at checkpoints, seeing your classmates killed, and the constant omnipresense of military occupation certainly does encourage hatred and distrust.

Maybe Israel should just quit the occupation.

[shergald]

61. Quit the occupation?

Nice thought. But the presence of the IDF and the incessant settlement and confiscation of Palestinian lands have not gone on for 39 years without purpose. The proper response to military occupation is resistance; instead, the Palestinians are blamed for their own occupation because they will not passively accept the bulldozing of their homes (11,000 since 1967), olive groves, and farmlands, which are routinely confiscated by the IDF for settlements. Why don't we know this? If you haven't seen Peace, Propaganda, & The Promised Land at Goodle Video, do so as soon as possible. It has had over 750,000 views in the past six weeks alone.

[shergald]

60. Give us a break, please.

See the death reports on Palestinian children I posted above. If anything, it is prejudicial Israeli attitudes toward Palestinians and Arabs in general that makes it easy for an Israeli soldier to aim a rifle at the head of a child and pull the trigger. The notion that these children are dangerous to Israeli soldiers in tanks and humvees is silly at best. Little wonder that when confronted with men in battle instead of children, the IDF does not fair very well, as we all saw in Lebanon (this observation from Uri Avnery of Gush Shalom).

This is one of the most pathetic posts I have ever read on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.