Rabbis forbid using books with map of pre-1967 lines

[Poll_Blind]

From Ha'aretz:

An organization of right-wing rabbis on Tuesday issued a Halakhic decree forbidding students from using schoolbooks featuring maps of Israel which include the pre-1967 Green Line border, Israel Radio reported.

The decree came in response to Education Minister Yuli Tamir's decision on Tuesday to add the pre-1967 borders to all new editions of textbooks.

Tamir defended the decision as the only way to teach students the basis of the region's politics, but her order came under fire from a number of right-wing groups.

--snip--

Two years ago Dr. Nurit Peled-Elhanan, a lecturer in language and education at Hebrew University, published research on six study books that had been published after the Oslo agreement. Some of these books were officially endorsed by the Education Ministry. Many teachers adopted other books even without the ministry's approval.

Her main findings included the disappearance of the Green Line and Arab cities in Israel from the maps in these books, and their presentation of sites and settlements in "Judea and Samaria," rather than in the "West Bank," as an integral part of Israel.

PB

[no_hypocrisy]

1. Oh, you mean the maps with the borders that the UN created?

Making Israel a sovereign nation with borders since 1945?

[wtmusic]

2. Faith and facts run afoul once again nt

[breakaleg]

3. What does the map they currently teach look like? Does it include all of the occupied territories

inside Israel?

[Poll_Blind]

5. I was kind of head-scratching on that one myself. I don't think that...

...that's an easy question to answer. The way I understand Israeli society, there are likely to be a whole spread of different books, some factual and others based on a Religious Zionist fantasy. Furthermore, I would not be surprised if at least one major Israeli textbook publisher publishes multiple versions of the same textbook with slants (or outright apocrypha) which cater to certain groups.

  Israeli newspapers are similar, each caters to a niche market and they play to that market's ideologies to keep up circulation. Which is why you can learn alot more reading Arutz Sheva and Ha'aretz than reading Ha'aretz alone.

PB

[breakaleg]

6. I'm curious because

a few years ago in Japan there was an issue with the textbooks. The Japanese were teaching school children a very different version of the war than we know it and Korea was up in arms over this. It amazes me that any county can do something like this, knowing that it's bound to become public and the people on the other end will eventually find out.

In Israel's case, I wonder if what they are taught goes a long way to explain any attitudes towards the Palestinians and any possible negotiations for a settlement. If children are raised to believe that say the West Bank is a part of Israel, then they may be less likely to support a Palestinians state in that area.

[Poll_Blind]

7. Like the way that Japanese textbooks cover the Rape of Nanking or...

...the way that some American textbooks cover slavery. It goes on everywhere, but its a little more creepy when it covers historical political boundaries on a map, something which should remain a little more factual. The teacher from the article is right, you can understand a lot about Middle East politics by "a succession of maps", at least when those maps honestly reflect the boundaries at the time.

PB

[breakaleg]

8. As they say, it's the victor that writes the history books. nt

[Poll_Blind]

10. True but this manipulation takes it a bit farther as there is no "victor" yet.

When I say "victor", I'm specifically talking about the battle for Israeli minds about how to deal with the Settlements. Those schooled by the state to believe that those Settlements exist on Israeli soil are likely to grow up to be adults who believe that the Settlements should not be removed because they "exist on Israeli land to begin with".

For a few years now I've been painfully aware that Israeli society may have its divisions but they're going to be far worse in 10-20 years when the Settlers large families grow up to multiply the concept of "Greater Israel". Not good news for the Left in Israel. The concept of a divine "manifest destiny" when it comes to entitlement issues the Settlers (et al.) have is just starting to get steam. From the 80's to now that concept has taken some time to build momentum but from 2000-2020 it's going to become much, much stronger.

I listen to Israel National Radio (Arutz Sheva) to get a good idea of mainstream Settler (Religious Zionist/Revisionist Zionist) culture. It's a great mix of good principles from the Torah wound with hate speech, bigotry and misogyny. If I could understand Arabic I'm sure the same thing goes on on the radio programs of their extremists, too.

Interesting difference is places like INN broadcast in English to drum up money from Diasporic Jews. As you know, in the U.S. two guys (and they aren't the only ones, there have been busts before) who were thrown in jail for broadcasting al Manar. Though Kach/Kahane Chai (and about 20 other aliases) are designated as Foreign Terror Groups (FTO's), the U.S. does very, very little to actually stop them, mostly because of pressure by sympathetic U.S. constituents, who also (unsuccessfully) tried to get Kach off the FTO list for 2005.

Heck, you can go to the web pages of many of the settlements (I used the detailed map provided by Gush Shalom to get the names) and go to their websites (some of which are located in the U.S.). You can then, specifically, donate X money and designate it for, say, a defibrilator, a medical kit, the training of a guard dog, or an M-16. Money goes right through a U.S. Paypal account.

And these are for the Illegal Settlements, mind you. What would the U.S. do if you visited a site to buy an M-16 for Hamas?

PB

[pelsar]

11. take a look at the gaza withdrawl...

the settlers tried as hard as they could....and barely got 100,000 to protest...the army had a single public protester (many didnt participate in the withdrawl, but did so quietly)...

not only are they just a loud minority but when there is a concensus from the left and center, they dont stand a chance.

[Poll_Blind]

13. I edited my message and added quite a bit while you were posting that, FYI.

Don't know if that changes anything, probably doesn't, but wanted to make a note of it. Removal of a sentence in my edit became the addition of other points.

On the face of it, yes, they are a "loud minority" but it's not like support for the Settlements just come from the Settlers themselves. They're also a minority who knows how to manipulate the situation and leverage it to their advantage. When Baruch Goldstein killed the worshippers in the Mosque he did so with his IDF uniform on, knowing that this would drum up more anti-Israeli sentiments from the Arabs. Also there was the unusual case of the settler who tried to do the same thing, or apparently so, but was found to have "comitted suicide" inside the Mosque he had started to shoot up. It's the same with the Palestinian splinter groups who are unable to see a future with any negotiated settlement with Israel and who take pains to antagonize with Quassams during a cease-fire.

As far as Left and Center go in Israel, there is little "Left and Center". Because of the tie-in with Orthodox Judaism (which the government heavily finances) and the right wing, it's difficult to "go Left" without getting frozen-out religiously and financially.

I really think most of the problems in Israel's culture are to do with the fact that the Orthodox refuses to recognize non-orthodox conversions or other branches of Judaism (like Reform Judaism) as legitimate and their attitudes twoard converts and sometimes non-Ashkenzais as "second-class Jews". The Israeli government helps to financially support the Orthodox unequally over other branches of Judaism.

It's very hard for Leftist ideals to flourish in an environment like this. Even the concept of Tikkun Olam is twisted by some of these rabbis so as to exclude mitzvot outside of a Jewish context.

PB

[pelsar]

14. boy do i disagree...

there is little "Left and Center".......wer'e the majority...just look at the voting in the knesset: labor, likud meretz, kadima. Whereas likud is a bit right, when it comes down to it (as in gaza, as in the sinai), they go with the govt.

You've put the influence of the orthodox far greater than they have in reality. They touch little of middle israel. Outside of marriage, divorce and where you get buried, they have little influence. All their little decrees are either laughed at or snickered at by the rest of the israels. Even the law which states that no jew can work on the sabbath is ignored (when shas held influence they would fine many stores opened on the sabbath)...today? non kosher resturants flourish, and dont have to pay the blackmail tax for the "kosher certificate". Gay marriages exist etc. If anything the influence of the orthodox "lobbiest is declining.

Israel doesnt have a "left" in the classic european/american sense, what we do have is liberals.

[IntiRaymi]

15. Are they not, however, the vanguard of Sharon's settler movement?

Who cares if they are unpopular, if what they are doing serves long term goals of the GOI.

[Poll_Blind]

16. The Right's showing in the last election and the influence of the Orthodox.

Kadima 22.02%
Labor 15.06%
Shas 9.53%
Likud 8.989%
Yisrael Beytenu 8.985% (Lieberman's party)
National Union 7.14%

Kadima, Shas, Likud and Yisrael Beytenu comprise over 49% of the vote and all of those are hard right-wing parties. The only one that one could remotely make a case for is Kadima but A) The only major difference between them and Likud is on the settlements B) All the players in the top echelon of Kadima are Likud All-Stars (esp. Livni) whose idea of change was Sharon over Bibi C) Whatever intention Sharon did have of moving away from Likud has been overruled by Olmert and acquiesced to by Livni. Some of the other 20-30 remaining political parties are Liberal, some Communist, some no doubt further-right than Shas.

In Israel 22% wins the PM-ship. Minority politics does not play in Israel the same way it does in the U.S. because of this. If a group can get just 8% of the vote they've got a place in the new government, almost guaranteed, which is why Yisrael Beytenu made such a sickening splash.

Saying the "Likud is a bit right" is an understatement borne from political relativism in a system which has predominately rightist politics.

Not as much time for the response on the Orthodox's influence but two points on the "You've put the influence of the orthodox far greater than they have in reality." You give, as an example, the sabbath law. "Even the law which states that no jew can work on the sabbath is ignored (when shas held influence they would fine many stores opened on the sabbath)...today?"

First, from today: Court rules Jews may not work in kibbutz stores on Saturday. I don't see any reason to snicker when The National Labor Court steps in to overturn a lower court's ruling dismissing the charges for working on the Sabbath (in this case on a kibbutz). Second, the rise of religious courts (Nine new religious 'monetary courts' offer alternative to civil system aim to set up an alternate civil system entirely, far beyond something like who a Cohen can or cannot marry.

The ultra-Orthodox have no intention at all of being pleased with what they've been given. They want more power to shape Israel in their own image, not in the image that the Israeli's creation documents support, and not in the boundaries less than Eretz Yisrael (vis a vis the Settlements).

PB

[pelsar]

17. reality.....

the ruling....
Court rules Jews may not work in kibbutz stores on Saturday

will be ignored just as its been ignored in the past......all malls, kibbutz stores, etc are open on saturday employing jews...and its now a simple fact of life, the economics buying power of the saturday shopper is now way too strong.

and like i said, which perhaps its because you dont live here...the orthodox is LOSING influence on the general israeli public.....they're hold on their "own" is what the other courts are all about. With the influence of the secular on the orthodox youth, they are doing all they can to hold on to their own and protect them against a constant onslaught via advertising, phones, internet etc.

and yes likud in terms of religion is a bit right, far from being extreme, as is kadima etc (you've confused right wing politics with religion)

[pelsar]

9. should i or shouldnt i....

bring some reality here from those who actually live in israel..and are now raising some kids in school?

_______________
guess so, for those who are actually curious and want some knowledge......

there are several "systems in israel from the religious to the non. Those who live in secular communities or mixed and go to mainly secular schools learn much about the palestenians...and when they join the youth groups which are mainly "liberal" in nature they then do "good deeds" and yes they are very aware of the "green line.' My kids history books arent at home so i cant actually check, but when i asked them about if they knew about the westbank etc...


i got a "DUH" what are we stuiped reaction. (guess that kinda of ruins the simplistic evil israeli govt/education system-sorry)


the religious, the national zionist will put their own slant on the education and of course it will be re-emphised in the home.

[breakaleg]

18. So you are saying your childrens' school teaches about the green line.

What about the other schools or school districts? I asked because I want to know.

[pelsar]

21. no green line....

i didnt see their books but they dont really learn about the "green line" as a greenline border, I asked specifically. They learn about the 67 war (with all the usual nationalistic ho ha...) and the westbank.

the schooling at this stage (10th graders) is actually pretty weak on the world and the palestenains in particular.

To quote my little girl when i asked about what they learn in history (up to this point i just knew in general what they learn). she answered:

its jews this, jews that, anti semetism here, kick out there....its enough dad!!....a bit too heavy on the jewish identity stuff-my kids arent into being brainwashed, which i take as a good sign.

it seems their knowledge of the palestenians and problems is mainly via TV, newspapers and a bit in their youth groups and trips (which are liberal in nature)

________

i live in a bedroom community (professionals, educated, westernized, not religious....) if that helps "pinpoint" our location on the socia/economic map.

[cali]

4. The Rabbis can forbid all they want

but Tamir has made a decision. Of course there will be rabid sorts opposing that decision, just as there are rabid sorts who complain about the textbooks in this country.

[Scurrilous]

12. Meet the Green Line

<snip>

"In an article published in Haaretz yesterday, Likud MK Yuval Steinitz pointed to Egyptian textbooks as evidence that the country is not looking for reconciliation. "Most textbook maps label the area east of Egypt not as 'Israel' but as 'Palestine,'" Dr. Steinitz wrote.

It would be interesting to know how Steinitz and his right-wing comrades will react to Education Minister Yuli Tamir's instruction that all maps in new editions of Israeli textbooks show the Green Line. Tamir says we cannot demand that our Arab neighbors note the 1967 borders when our education system has erased them from textbooks and student awareness.

The claim that textbooks have been conscripted into the Arab propaganda machines appears (in three languages) on the Web site of the Israel Defense Forces intelligence division, in a section dubbed "the hatred industry." The site analyzes the textbooks distributed by the Palestinian Authority. The writers point out that the maps do not mention Israel's name. They complain that when the Green Line is marked, Israel and the territories are shown in the same color. That is one of the "sophisticated methods of bypassing the problem," the site says. It goes on to explain that this is done to make it easier to confront anticipated criticism for ignoring Israel.

And how do Israelis deal with the criticism that Israeli textbooks disregard the Green Line? They ignore it. Two years ago, we published the main points of a study by Dr. Nurit Peled-Elhanan of the Hebrew University's School of Education. Peled-Elhanan examined six textbooks published after the Oslo Accords, including some that were officially sanctioned by the Education Ministry. Other books were adopted by many teachers even though they were not officially approved. Among the salient findings were the blurring of the Green Line, the ignoring of Arab towns in Israel, and the presentation of sites and settlements in "Judea and Samaria" (not the "West Bank") as an integral part of the State of Israel."

more


Steinitz article

[eyl]

19. Wierd

AFAIR (and I don't have the book handy right now to check) the books I used in school definitely marked the Green Line.

[Violet_Crumble]

20. The article did say they were reinstated...

When I read the article I took it as meaning that at some point the Green Line had been removed and now it was being put back in....

on edit: sorry, it was the other Op in another thread about the text books where I read that...