The Rise of Avigdor Lieberman *EDITED*

[Ken Burch]

If this man becomes Israel's next prime minister, should the U.S. still recognize the Israeli gov't?

An incipient fascist and an advocate of the murder of Arab members of the Knesset, Avigdor Lieberman is rising in popularity. If he becomes prime minister, will Israel still have any moral right to claim to be a democracy? And will there still be any good reason for the U.S. government or American Jews to bother defending Israel's existence at all, since Lieberman's rise will mean the death of all humane and democratic values in that country?

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070101/lynfield

Edited by Lithos to have title conform to I/P guidelines

[Ken Burch]

1. This is not an idle question, btw.

The man is already in the CABINET, for G-d's sake. And his popularity is rising.

If he ends up leading the government, will not Israel basically have abandoned everything it ever claimed to have stood for?

[Kagemusha]

4. Not to be flippant but, Israel has nukes of course we'll recognize it

But if I was an Arab I'd be scared, real scared. People ask me how I can be so calm about Iran. Because Iran's capabilities are so inferior to Israel when it comes to ability to inflict raw damage, that's why. If this man becomes PM, he'll have the immediate capacity to nuke several national capitols with at least theoretical impunity.

[Crunchy Frog]

2. If that happens, it will certainly be interesting

to see some heads exploding here on DU. I wonder just how far Israel can go, and still be considered above criticism by some here.

[regnaD kciN]

6. False assumption...

I wonder just how far Israel can go, and still be considered above criticism by some here.

It assumes that there is anything that a future Israeli government might do that would cause some here to stop supporting it.

:eyes:

[Crunchy Frog]

11. Well, it will make for some interesting contortionism anyway. n/t

[creeksneakers2]

3. If that happens

I say we dump them.

[Jim Lane]

15. I don't blindly defend Israel, but Israeli voters have the right to choose.

If we believe in the principle of democracy, then we must believe in the importance of fair and free elections, even if the result is that our favored candidate loses.

Of course, that doesn't mean we're bound to agree with, let alone support, everything an elected Israeli government does. It means only that we should recognize a certain amount of legitimacy is conferred by virtue of being an elected government.

[leftchick]

5. like the US would ever consider not supporting Israel

even with fascists like Lieberman.....

<snip>

If Lieberman's pronouncements are to be taken seriously--and there is no obvious reason they should not be--a Lieberman government would exclude some Arab citizens from Israel, would expel others who refuse to sign a loyalty-to-Zionism oath, would turn Gaza into Grozny and would execute Arab members of the Knesset who talk to Hamas or mark Israel Independence Day as the anniversary of the displacement of the Palestinians in 1948.

Many Israelis--and many Americans--are sleeping through the rise of Lieberman. Others are through their actions facilitating the ascendance of fascist ideas in Israel. Lieberman is more than kosher as far as Washington is concerned. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice welcomed him at the State Department on December 11, a day after he was featured at a forum, sponsored by the Brookings Institution's Saban Center, that also included Bill Clinton, Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton and several other members of Congress.

[Ken Burch]

7. I hope it doesn't ever come to this.

I hope that Israel remembers that it is supposed to be a progressive and humane nation.

I hope that the values of the Jewish tradition are recovered and that the population of Israel realizes that Avigdor Lieberman is a sworn enemy of those values.

And I hope that the American Jewish community does the right thing and demands Lieberman's expulsion from the cabinet and the Knesset. The man has no legitimate place in the politics of a democracy.

[Behind the Aegis]

19. This makes no sense....

"And I hope that the American Jewish community does the right thing and demands Lieberman's expulsion from the cabinet and the Knesset."

[Ken Burch]

21. Why not?

the man is a fascist and has called for the murder of elected members of the Knesset. This is not acceptable in any country that claims to be a democracy.

There is NO excuse for condoning Yisrael Betenyu. it is a fascist organization that calls for population transfer and undemocratic changes in the Israeli poliical system.

[oberliner]

23. And I hope that the American Muslim community does the right thing

and demands the expulsion of all members of Hamas from the Palestinian Legislative Council.

That organization has no legitimate place in the politics of a democratic society.

Agree?

[Ken Burch]

25. I've never been an apologist for Hamas

And I don't think all U.S. Muslims have taken a pro-Hamas stand, or even a "Hamas can never be criticized" stand.

That's a dirty trick using that analogy.

It would be much better for Hamas to be gone, but its existence doesn't justify Israeli policy in the West Bank.

The truth is, the hard line ISN'T making Israel safer and it isn't making the Jewish people safer in Israel or in other countries. Arguably, the hard line when applied against Arafat for most of his career, even when he was trying to make peace in the later years, has a lot to do with the rise of Hamas.

There is nothing any Palestinian ever did that justifies voting for Yisrael Betenyu. It's program is nothing but hatred and death. It is comparable to Hamas, and it would be better if both were gone.

All the supporters of Yisrael Betenyu want is to see a lot more dead Palestinians. They have no positive case for voting for a party of transfer.

[oberliner]

28. I don't think all American Jews have taken a pro-Yisrael Beytenu stand

In fact, I would wager to guess that the majority of American Jews have not heard of them or of Avigdor Lieberman.

American Jews for the most part support the Israelis and American Muslims for the most part support the Palestinians.

Just because American Jews support the Israelis does not mean that they approve of the policies of Avigdor Lieberman.

Likewise, just because American Muslims support the Palestinians does not mean that they approve of the policies of Hamas.

That was the only point I was trying to get across.

I didn't mean it as a dirty trick, and I do agree with you that it would advance the cause of peace tremendously if both Yisrael Beytenu and Hamas were not a part of the two governments.

[Behind the Aegis]

24. American Jewish community.

The answer to your question.

[Ken Burch]

26. Well, that community needs to move past the whole "ha breira" mentality.

Taking a position that any criticism of the Israeli government must automatically be demonized and attacked serves no purpose.

And the U.S. politicians that are making the biggest show of being "pro-Israel" are the same ones who, had they been alive in the 1930's, would have done everything they could to keep Jewish refugees from Hitler out of the U.S.

Israel is a state like any other, Aegis. And no group of politicians can be trusted with unquestioning support.

There really isn't any good reason you should be spending more energy attacking me than you do trying to stop the rise of Avigdor Lieberman. Yisrael Betenyu is the enemy of Israel, not me and not those who support the creation of a Palestinian state.

[Behind the Aegis]

27. What a bizarre response.

Why is it you seem to liken my responses to you as attacks on you? I have done nothing of the sort.

"Taking a position that any criticism of the Israeli government must automatically be demonized and attacked serves no purpose."

Not every supporter of Israel does this. I don't even do it.

"And the U.S. politicians that are making the biggest show of being "pro-Israel" are the same ones who, had they been alive in the 1930's, would have done everything they could to keep Jewish refugees from Hitler out of the U.S."

That is speculation and nothing more.

"Israel is a state like any other, Aegis. And no group of politicians can be trusted with unquestioning support."

I have never said it wasn't like any other state, with the exception of those preoccupied with it. As for sentence two, and? I don't.

"There really isn't any good reason you should be spending more energy attacking me than you do trying to stop the rise of Avigdor Lieberman. Yisrael Betenyu is the enemy of Israel, not me and not those who support the creation of a Palestinian state."

You made an assertion that made no sense. It still makes no sense. You have yet to explain why American Jews must expel a politician from another country. Just how we would accomplish such a thing?

[Violet_Crumble]

30. But that's NOT what he said...

What he actually said: 'And I hope that the American Jewish community does the right thing and demands Lieberman's expulsion from the cabinet and the Knesset.'

which you have turned into: 'American Jews must expel a politician from another country.'

[oberliner]

31. Is the American Jewish community not made up exclusively of American Jews?

I don't see your distinction.

[Violet_Crumble]

32. It doesn't speak for all American Jews...

American Jews and the American Jewish community are two very different things. The first includes all American Jews and the second doesn't.

[Behind the Aegis]

33. same thing.

American Jews comprise the American Jewish community. So how, or more importantly, why, should American Jews of the American Jewish community expel a politician from another nation?

[Violet_Crumble]

34. No, it isn't...

American Jews is talking about the entire Jewish population of the US. The American Jewish community is not talking about the entire Jewish population...

[Behind the Aegis]

35. Whatever.

Parsing aside...how and why should the AJC demand the expulsion a politician from another country?

[Violet_Crumble]

37. Seeing as how we disagree on what the AJC comprises...

I'm not going to waste my time answering that question...

Suffice to say that I think that anyone who doesn't believe that Lieberman should be dismissed from his post as a Cabinet Minister in the Israeli govt isn't aware of what a nasty bigot the man is...

[Behind the Aegis]

39. No surprises. n/t

[Ken Burch]

38. For one thing, you had a moral obligation to stage mass protests

When Lieberman came to the U.S. to meet with Bush. But there were none.
And if any U.S. politician were to speak out against Avigdor Lieberman, that politician would be falsely called anti-Israeli and forced to recant. How can you defend that?

Avigdor Lieberman is evil and he stands against all the values of the Jewish tradition. He wants to truly turn Zionism into a racist colonial occupation.

At the very least, you should be demanding that Labor leave the coalition in protest. There is no excuse for any party that claims to be left-of-center sitting in a coalition with a fascist.

[Behind the Aegis]

40. Exactly who do you think you are?

How dare you tell me what my moral obligation is or isn't! Talk about unmitigated gaul!

"And if any U.S. politician were to speak out against Avigdor Lieberman, that politician would be falsely called anti-Israeli and forced to recant. How can you defend that?"

How can I defend something that didn't happen?

"At the very least, you should be demanding that Labor leave the coalition in protest. There is no excuse for any party that claims to be left-of-center sitting in a coalition with a fascist."

Do you have me confused with another poster? I am not Israeli. I am only a citizen of the United States. Why would Labor even consider what a single American demands or even a group of Americans?

[Name removed]

36. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[breakaleg]

8. Ha! Wouldn't that be something to see.

[still_one]

9. sorry to disappoint those who would love to use this as a reason to piss on Israel

but lieberman WON'T become PM

In addition, I predict that there will be real and substantial negitiagions between Israel and the Palestinians within the next year.

[Ken Burch]

10. It's NOT about "pissing on Israel" It's about speaking truth to power

The truth is, Avigdor Lieberman is now in the cabinet. He's gaining support in the polls.

Every decent Israeli has a moral obligation to do all they can to stop this fascist shitbag, and his rise to power would delegitimize Israel, since it would be the death of all that was progressive and democratic in the state.

Can you disagree with any of the above?

(BTW, I hope you're right about negotiations, but it's hard to see Jut-Jaw Olmert doing anything to bring about peace.)

[still_one]

17. I will bet you a cup of coffee that labor wins, and negotiations start this year

There is much movement behind the scenes already going on. The best thing for Israel, the Palestinians, and the world was the Democrats taking back Congress, and it will only get better.

The neocons were a disaster for all parties concerned. There time has come and gone

Incidently, I agree with everything you said about lieberman also, he is a racist, and it would be a black mark for Israel, but my belief is it isn't going to happen. Even Sharon condemned lieberman's statements

Keep in mind the Democrats were NOT suppossed to win the midterms either, but they did

[Ken Burch]

41. Only thing is, hasn't Labor's popularity basically cratered

As a result of their participation in the coalition and the perception that Peretz basically failed miserably in the Second Lebanon War?

My impression was that public opinion has moved sharply to the right and will stay there for years to come, if nor forever. If you have evidence to the contrary, I'd love to see it.

[oberliner]

12. That is not the title of this article

The title of the source article is:

The Rise of Avigdor Lieberman

Why the violation of the I/P guidelines?

[Violet_Crumble]

13. I kind of suspect it was originally posted upstairs then moved here...

Coz there's a few names in this thread that I'm not familiar with...

[Ken Burch]

14. That was an oversight. I didn't realize the actual title of a particular article had to be used.

I'd correct it, but it's too late to do so since DU doesn't allow you to edit after 30 minutes or so.

Still, that's hairsplitting.

[Lithos]

18. Going to keep this article open

But no, it is not hairsplitting. I was about to lock it as this is one of the main rules which have helped keep I/P under control. However, I will make an exception this time and edit the Original Thread to match.

Lithos
DU Moderator.

[Ken Burch]

20. I appreciate your doing that.

I truly didn't change the title with the intent of causing trouble.

[Poll_Blind]

16. 60/40* Likud over Yisrael Beytenu in chance of winning next PM

Here is a brief message showing the results of the last election, showing just how close Lieberman's party came to pushing Likud to the side. I'm not bothering to pull up the links but it should be fairly easy for anyone to find out that, based on polls, if elections were held any time in the last 3 months in Israel, Likud would win.

   Kadima, has several choices which are almost equally-likely given the fluid nature of Israeli political parties and Olmert's disasterously well-deserved reputation. It can either offer Olmert again, offer up another choice or dissolve.

:bluebox: Olmert would kill his own party if he tried to run again and it's likely that those who formed Kadima (~125 members of Likud left to form Kadima with Sharon, Olmert and Livni)would not want to stay for a Nantucket Sleighride where Olmert is both the whale and the whaler. In this case, I'd predict a Likud win, but very close with Yisrael Beytenu.

:bluebox: Tzipi Livni is a very popular and physically-attractive politician in Israel and if Olmert can swallow his pride, she might have a shot at keeping the party together by running next time. But what platform, exactly, would she run on? Kadima's torn it's own "milder" platform to shreds. She should have taken over when Sharon died (she is one of the, if not the most trusted politican in Israel according to polls within the last few years) but she does not have that dangly bit of flesh between her legs and so acquiesced, quietly, so that Olmert could step forward. Even though I don't like any of their policies, Tzipi would have been a much better choice, certainly a much more stable one, for Kadima after Sharon. Do not underestimate the power of the penis in right-wing Israeli socio-political culture though anyone in Kadima not convinced Livni is the only choice for Kadima is, pun intended, a schmuck. If this is the case, Kadima could win again, though it would be a vicious three-way battle with Likud and Yisrael Beytenu.

:bluebox: If Kadima dissolves, who knows? It all depends on where their membership drains to. Remember Kadimites are arguably there just as much (or more) for a dislike of Bibi's heading of Likud as they are on the settlements issue. If Kadima dissolves it's very difficult to tell whether the majority of ex-Kadimites would rather go to Lieberman's party which is farther right than Likud but also a new dymanic, masculine patriarchial party (with Lieberman always and forever at the top), go back to Likud, or fragment entirely based on their shattered experiment. Magic 8-ball says "Need more information", every time.

  * A word about Yisrael Beytenu even though all of my predictions show a non-Yisrael Beytenu win: Avigdor Lieberman's campaign was helped immeasurably by a shadowy Republican strategist from America named Arthur J. Finkelstein. He's sort of the Keyser Soze of campaign officials and if you think Karl Rove is big leagues, he's small peanuts to Finkelstein. Anyway, Finkelstein helped Lieberman create the very successful "Nyet Nyet Da" campaign (among other things) and if Finkelstein works for Lieberman in a PM run it could be just enough to help him squak to a win in a couple of cases.

PB

[eyl]

22. I find it very difficult to believe

that in the event of Kadima dissolving, any significant portion of its members would end up with Lieberman. Remember that those members who came from Likud came from its moderate wing.

As for Livni, it's not her genitalia which are the biggest obstacle (we've had a female PM, which is more than the US can say) but her age - she's rather young for the post of PM (though IMO she's th best choice currently available - she'd have my vote if she ran).

[IndianaGreen]

29. I agree with you, I can't imagine any Kadima MKs joining the crazies

I believe Livni counselled for negotiations to get the kidnapped IDF soldiers released, but once Olmert chose to go to war, she supported the cabinet decision.

Sitting here in the comfort of the American Midwest, it is hard to imagine how Sharon would have acted had he not had his fateful stroke (damned Russian doctors!). One thing that I do know about Sharon, neither Hamas nor Hizbollah would have had the audacity to pull the sort of stunt they did with Olmert. They wouldn't have dared to do such "in the face" provocation as to attack an IDF patrol in order to take hostages.

[Violet_Crumble]

42. I'm a bit slow on the uptake coz I just realised he was Deputy PM...

If Israel's political system is similar to ours, being Deputy PM doesn't mean someone's next in line for the big job unless they're in the same political party that gained power (eg our current govt has a Liberal PM and a National Party Deputy PM and that's tradition given that the Liberal Party is the stronger of the coalition partners). But the fact that such a whackadoodle and racist scumbag has been given the job of Deputy PM is disgusting, imo. Over here our weirdos wallow away on the back benches so they can't embarress or damage the govt too much, and that's what should be done to Lieberman. I'm sure there's some political pragmatism at play where sweeteners are given to keep the numbers needed to retain power etc, but a line should be drawn when it comes to dealing with racists. This guy is no better than the Hamas hardliners imo...


Forgot to add that while the role of Deputy PM is a mainly status thing with no real power, there are situations where they do take over the role of caretaker PM and it's those situations I'd be extremely concerned about....

[eyl]

43. No, he can't

The confusion arises because there are two different positions which both can be translated as Deputy Prime Minister.

Deputy Prime Minister in the sense you're talking about - someone who takes over if the PM is incapacitated, or in a few other circumstances (like Olmert did before the elections) is known in Israeli law as mema'le makom rosh hamemshala. In the English version of the Basic Law - The Government (2001 version)* which defined that position, it's translated as "Acting Prime Minister". In the current government, this post is held by Tzipi Livni.

The post Lieberman is holding, OTOH, is sgan rosh hamemshala, and is a wholly ceremonial post, whose main use is as a coalition-building bargaining chip. Because this position has no powers whatsoever, there can even be several sganim at the same time. In fact, I think the current government has 4 - Peretz, Yishai, Mofaz and Lieberman

*This title was also used prior to 2001, but had no legal standing prior to that time

[Violet_Crumble]

44. That's good to know...

I thought it was like our position of Deputy PM where whenever the PM goes overseas the Deputy PM takes over until the PM returns to the country. I do think it's a shame that Lieberman is given any post, ceremonial or not, though if that's the only way to hold a coalition together, the alternative could be much worse...

[eyl]

45. That's part of the job

of the Acting PM. Just different terminologies.

And I agree 100% with that last sentence.

[AlienGirl]

46. The US does not abandon its allies like that; this is a silly thing to suggest could happen.

[everythingsxen]

47. To anyone paying attention:

I told you so. :hi: