At least 30 injured, many seriously, in explosion in Haifa restaurant

[GabysPoppy]

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/346816.html

At least 30 people were injured, 12 of them
seriously, in an explosion Saturday afternoon in a
restaurant in Haifa.

snip

later news - several dead (14 now)

[mddemo]

1. again

once again the "peaceful" palestinians score an own goal.

[Jim Sagle]

2. It's righteous - they're oppressed. /sarcasm off

[drdon326]

3. "Peaceful"??

if cold blooded jihadofascist murder wasnt so
pathetically inhuman, it would be funny.

[Darranar]

4. Sad...

Those VILE TERRORIST THUGS! This must stop!

[drdon326]

5. 18 DEAD !! ISLAMIC JIHAD CLAIMS RESPONSIBILITY.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1065252420841

[Muddleoftheroad]

9. Only one thing they understand

It's death. I'd gladly help them understand it up close.

[loudnclear]

45. They understand when their women and children are being killed by Israelis

They are humans too. You can't keep occupying, brutalizing, demeaning, killing people and expect them to roll over without fighting back.

[Darranar]

47. By no real definition is this "fighting back"...

in any legitimate fashion. This is murderous slaughter, pure and simple. There's no getting around it.

[The Magistrate]

48. And So Long As This Sort Of Thing Continues, Ma'am

The Israeli forces will continue operations aimed at liquidating these irregular organizations.

The right to resist does not contain any right to commit crimes of war, and that is unarguably what this attack is.

Attempting to justify it in any way only discredits any occassion you may take to accuse any other body, from the Israeli forces to the U.S. forces, of criminal behavior. If you do not apply the rules to a cause you support, no one will take seriously your charges against a side you oppose. This is a leading reason why left accusations of war crimes have so little credence with the people.

[sushi]

57. How many people

do you want to kill to stop this? I should rephrase that: How many people in your opinion, should be killed for this to stop?
You would have to include all females who just give birth to more possible suicide bombers. And don't forget to include all the female babies who will only grow up to give birth to the future suicide bombers. Can you see that this is not a solution?

Or drop a nuclear bomb on Palestine. Wait, that's not possible either. Israelis could be killed too.

What else, Muddle?

[Muddleoftheroad]

64. How many?

I'll go for just all members of the terrorist groups. How's that?

I hate terrorists, but would love for sane and rational leaders to help Palestine to a new nation.

The Palestinians have allowed their cause to be taken up by thugs, monsters and worse. They need to take it back and eradicate such vermin.

[Resistance]

6. It is a despicable crime, and is not endorsed by me.

It is also long past time for a new approach to the conflict: International peacekeeping forces in the region, and both sides must be forced back to negotiating a peaceful agreement. A Palestinian State must be formed immediately, settlement expansion must end, and both sides must end the attacks on the other.

The excuse of Palestinian militants that they are fighting the occupier by murdering innocent civilians is bullshit.

The excuse of the Israeli military that they are fighting the terrorists by murdering innocent civilians is bullshit.

And the continued stealing of land which should be part of the new Palestinian state is bullshit.

The right-wing whackos and murderous thugs are running the show here, folks. Hamas, IJ, and other Palestinian terror groups on one side; and Sharon, Likud, and the IDF on the other side. It is time for the PEACEFUL LEFT to make our voices heard and demand PEACE not WAR from our leaders.

[The Magistrate]

37. Well Said, Mr. Resistance

With the exception of perhaps one or two points, hardly worth debating just now, we are in substantial agreement here, most importantly on this: "A Palestinian State must be formed immediately, settlement expansion must end, and both sides must end the attacks on the other."

[sushi]

59. I have read that

Israel is against outside forces coming in. The only way is negootiations but Israel avoids it, so how on earth can a Palestinian state be formed?

You are exactly right. The show is run by the extremists on both sides, and the majority on both sides suffer.

[bemildred]

7. The lockdown doesn't seem to have been effective:

http://www.democraticunderground.org/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=18023

No Palestinian will be allowed in or out of the West Bank or Gaza Strip until after the holiday on Monday.

So where did this person come from?

[Darranar]

8. He snuck in...

not a hard thing to do.

[Muddleoftheroad]

10. That's why they need the wall

Makes it a lot harder. Ask the folks in Gaza.

[Darranar]

11. Perhaps a wall could cause some good developements...

unfortunately, this one causes more harm than good.

[Muddleoftheroad]

12. Matter of opinion

Many of those who oppose the wall would oppose ANY wall no matter where it was built.

Face it, the two sides can't agree on the border and there are lots of subdisagreements. Even if we went with mostly the Green Line, it will never be exactly that, we both know it.

That means no wall will ever pass muster with many.

Too bad.

[Darranar]

13. That's not true...

a wall on the Green Line, even with the exception of keeping east Jerusalem protected, would meet a lot less resistance. If no one is willing to actually solve this with a real and just solution for both sides, a wall on the Green Line would help.

[Muddleoftheroad]

29. The murderers don't agree

And they vote with their guns and bombs.

[Darranar]

30. The murderers will never agree...

whether you build a wall or not. The murderers will just keep on murdering until they are stopped.

[Muddleoftheroad]

32. So that means the guy with the power -- Arafat

He should have negotiated a peace to stop them and it would have stopped the wall as well. Arafat contracted the wall, Israel is just finishing the construction.

[Darranar]

34. That's junk...

Should I now say that Sharon has contracted the suicide bombers?

[Muddleoftheroad]

36. Do you doubt Arafat could have stopped the wall?

I don't. He didn't want to. Maybe he is just afraid he couldn't actually lead a country. Maybe in his dotage he is afraid radical elements will kill him and that scares him more than destroying the hope of the Palestinian and Israeli peoples.

No matter what, Arafat could have stopped the wall by working with Israel and going after terror. Sharon, no matter what you think of him, does NOT have the power to stop the terrorists.

[Darranar]

39. Yes he does...

Sharon does have the power to stop the terrorists. He can dismantle the settlements and tear down the wall. he can end the occupation. Those things would eliminate the popular support for the terrorists. The result would be the eradication of those vicious thugs.

Arafat no longer has the power to stop the terrorists or stop the wall.

[Muddleoftheroad]

42. A couple things

No Sharon cannot do those things. To do them without a partner in peace is suicide.

The thugs in question have sworn to destroy Israel. They won't stop with or without settlers and with or without the wall.

You apparently never negotiate anything in life. That's what this will ultimately become -- a negotiation. You want Israel to give up a ton now and then give up more later. It doesn't work that way.

There is no way Israel will give up Jerusalem or any part of it. To just walk away from most of this territory without an agreement is ridiculous.

Arafat has power and moral authority. He could stop the terrorists or virtually eliminate them, he chooses not to do so.

[Darranar]

43. Junk...

No Sharon cannot do those things. To do them without a partner in peace is suicide.

Sorry, I forgot. Step 1 is appointing someone like Barghouti on the Palestinian side, a moderate who wants peace.

The thugs in question have sworn to destroy Israel. They won't stop with or without settlers and with or without the wall.

It doesn't matter what they want. The fact is that without any public support the terrorists are doomed. If real peace sems to be at hand, the terrorists and their anti-Israel cynicism will be shoved to the side, soon to be completely eradicated.

You apparently never negotiate anything in life. That's what this will ultimately become -- a negotiation. You want Israel to give up a ton now and then give up more later. It doesn't work that way.

What I outlined above should be a gradual process, not a sudden one. First steps must be taken to convince the palestinian populace that israel is serious about peace. As soon as that occurs, the moderate Abbas-like leader can begin cracking down somewhat on the suicide bombers.

There is no way Israel will give up Jerusalem or any part of it.

Jerusalem isn't the problem. It is my opinion that it should be run by a third party, but I wouldn't really care in whose hands it ended up, as long as equal access was allowed for all religions.

Arafat has power and moral authority. He could stop the terrorists or virtually eliminate them, he chooses not to do so.

What power does Arafat has that can stop the terrorists?

[Muddleoftheroad]

51. Steps

Clearly Step One is NOT appoint someone with no power or who is afraid to use power.

Do you think if Sharon did those things as a direct result of this terror campaign that the terrorists would LOSE support? Not hardly. They would be in charge as a result.

Sorry, it isn't Israel's job to convince the Palestinians anything. The Palestinians wants a nation, it is THEIR job to convince Israel to make it happen.

As for Jerusalem, you are an exception. It IS a problem for many. And yes, Israel grants freer access than the Arab leaders did.

Arafat could easily mobilize the Palestinian people against the terrorists by saying THEY are holding us back from a nation and must be struck down. He has troops that back him and he should use them.

[Darranar]

52. More junk...

Clearly Step One is NOT appoint someone with no power or who is afraid to use power.

He gains power through popular support - which is what he will gain when Israel dismantles the most intrusive settlements and tears down the wall.

Do you think if Sharon did those things as a direct result of this terror campaign that the terrorists would LOSE support? Not hardly. They would be in charge as a result.

That is plainly not true. The Palestinians are desperate - that's whyb the terrorists can operate almost freely. If they weren't desperate, terrorism wouldn't be tolerated.

As for Jerusalem, you are an exception. It IS a problem for many. And yes, Israel grants freer access than the Arab leaders did.

They don't grant equal access. And even if they did, that of course would be conditional, and that state would be made clear.

Arafat could easily mobilize the Palestinian people against the terrorists by saying THEY are holding us back from a nation and must be struck down. He has troops that back him and he should use them.

Uh, what troops?

[Muddleoftheroad]

53. Taking out your junk

Weren't you were the one talking about leadership earlier? He leads and others follow.

Terrorism wouldn't be tolerated? The Palestinians have embraced terror since the PLO was founded. They didn't just get desperate and suddenly start doing this. Ask the Israeli athletes in Munich but say it loud, they can't hear too well in their graves that are over three decades old.

Israel grants more access than its predecessors. It also doesn't destroy religious sites like the Palestinians have done.

Arafat is head of the PA, any and all of their armed members from police to terror groups are "troops."

[Darranar]

54. Yet more junk...

how do you think up this stuff?

Weren't you were the one talking about leadership earlier? He leads and others follow.

As long as he doesn't lead them against terrorists.

Terrorism wouldn't be tolerated? The Palestinians have embraced terror since the PLO was founded. They didn't just get desperate and suddenly start doing this. Ask the Israeli athletes in Munich but say it loud, they can't hear too well in their graves that are over three decades old.

That was, of course, after the settlements started.

Arafat is head of the PA, any and all of their armed members from police to terror groups are "troops."

The infrastructure supporting them has been destroyed by the Israelis.

[rini]

62. He had a chance

he refused. The Egyption weasle is scared of peace.

[Darranar]

63. What chance?

And he was born to Palestinian parents, by the way. Arafat is Palestinian.

[sushi]

60. I saw a female settler

on TV saying that the wall isn't going to stop suicide bombing.
"If they want they will find a way to come in."

[bemildred]

14. So what is the point of the lockdown, if it doesn't

prevent suicide attackers from entering? What sort of
"security" does it provide, and to whom?

[Darranar]

15. It's a show...

really accomplishing nothing for the security of Israe. Just like the Iraq war.

[bemildred]

16. Bingo.

It also applies "pressure" on the Palestinians.

[GabysPoppy]

17. Consider this please

The IDF rarely reports on failed attempts of suicide bombers. So you are not seeing the total effectiveness of the wall.

To believe the wall will be 100% effective is to not be realistic. Full disclosure of the failed suicide attempts could expose some of the intelligence units and endanger other people.

[Darranar]

18. I'm not talking about the wall...

I'm talking about the lockdown before Yom Kippur. the wall isn't completed; we won't know until it is.

[GabysPoppy]

23. But yet Darranar, you make similiar comments about the wall

[Darranar]

25. I do?

Please tell me exactly what i have said, and I'll try to clarify it.

[bemildred]

19. The argument that these "security measures" reduce the

number of successful attacks seems reasonable, but it is
striking, if you watch over a period of time, how spectacular
attacks seem to get through at certain times: holidays, after
"liquidations", and so on, and how they cease at others.

My own opinion is that the wall will not be 100% effective either,
although the Gaza case would argue that it will.

[GabysPoppy]

20. That is a good observation

Holidays will highlight the acts of terrorism. I think a reasonable person can assume these organizations will increase their terrorist attacks or attempts at times like that.

[bemildred]

24. That is true, but it's not merely that.

It shows a certain measure of control, not merely a
more frantic effort at certain times. I point out the
double attack right after the collapse of the hudna. That
was a message, not just a "lucky" day. I point out the
attack on the Gaza checkpoint a while back too, by the three
fellows. There are some non-amateur players in this, but
they don't stick their heads up all the time. Their presence
is one reason I think the wall will not be 100% effective.

[drdon326]

21. 5 of 18 Murdered were children.

.

[Darranar]

22. It's very sad...

Both sides seem to not care when they brutally slaughter children. This is horrible.

[drdon326]

26. Darranar.... bomber was a woman.

"Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the
attack, the Itim news agency reported, adding
that the bomber came from the West Bank city of
Jenin. She apparently entered Israel between
the towns of Baka al-Garbiyeh, which is inside
Israel, and Baka al-Sharkiyeh, in the West
Bank, in an area in which the separation fence
has not yet been completed."

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/346816.html

[Darranar]

27. What do I have to do with that?

[drdon326]

28. The wall??

?

[Darranar]

31. What about the wall?

[bemildred]

33. I think you are supposed to see that if the wall was

complete through there, she would not have got in. Or
something like that. But it seems to be speculation at
this point, I think they are assuming she came from there
because the wall is incomplete there. Not that that is
implausible. At least I don't see how they would know for
sure her origin and route, they are still cleaning up the
mess.

[Darranar]

35. But why not you or someone else?

I'm far from the only person here who's against the wall.

The Mossad knows everything. They're superhumans. Haven't you learned yet?

[bemildred]

38. He likes you more than me, I guess.

[drdon326]

40. I like you both.

the point is the wall WILL help prevent these murderers
from getting through.

[Darranar]

41. Yah, it will...

we agree there.

But it will also have some "unfortunate" humanitarian consequences for vast numbers of Palestinians.

[bemildred]

44. I cannot disagree with what you say.

It certainly will "help prevent" attackers getting through.
In the larger sense you know we disagree. I see it as an attempt
to put off dealing with things that must eventually be dealt with,
and that were better dealt with now. It is a static defense, and
an admission that the GOI knows not what else to do. But we need
not argue, time will tell the tale well enough.

[Darranar]

46. Agreed...

you put it very well.

[Fight_n_back]

49. This restaraunt was co owned

by Arab and Jewish families. Is this why it was targetted?

One very telling thing about this conflict is that Palestinains who live INSIDE the Grenn Line have very little to do with the resistance outside of it. There have only been a couple of cases of collaberation.

If the Jihad groups are going to start targetting Israeli Arabs will it change the way the groups are seen in the West Bank?

In the past the targets were chosen very carefully.

[Darranar]

50. I found that to be strange, too...

I don't think that they'll start targeting Israeli Arabs specifically, but I don't think they will - or ever have - hesitated before killing them alongside Israeli Jews in the past.

[Fight_n_back]

55. Thats the difference

the targets used to be more obviously Jewish (weddings, passover dinners, kindergartens). The bus earleir this year was the first one that was a mixed target.

[newyorican]

58. It's not strange at all...

Give people something to lose and they think twice (or three times) before risking it all.

[Darranar]

61. Uh... what?

What relevance whatsoever does your statement have to anything?

[bemildred]

56. More info coming out.

Bomber targets packed restaurant

http://onenews.nzoom.com/onenews_detail/0,1227,226156-1-9,00.html

The militant group Islamic Jihad said it was behind the attack and
named the bomber as a woman from the West Bank city of Jenin.

The group said the woman was called Hanadi Tayseer Jaradat, a
single woman who practised law in Jenin and had studied in Jordan.

It said she was 29, although it had earlier given her age as 19. It said
the attack was in revenge for the deaths of her brother and cousin -
Islamic Jihad members who were killed by Israeli troops.

Few of the more than 100 suicide attacks on Israelis in the past three
years of violence have been carried out by women.