Hamas exploitation of civilians as human shields: Photographic evidence

[msmcghee]

6 Mar 2008 ~ Smoke rises over Gaza homes after launching of rockets against Israel

Deliberate use of civilians as human shields

In its fight to defend itself against Hamas attacks against its civilians, Israel is faced with moral challenges unprecedented in their complexity. Hamas, as a basic element of its strategy, exploits the Palestinian population as shields for its terrorist operations and infrastructure. This cynical strategy include the following tactics:

- The deliberate launching of rocket from populated areas
- The deliberate use of civilian homes to shield Hamas arms and explosives manufacturing facilities
- The deliberate use of civilians as human shields against anticipated airstrikes


Deliberate use of civilians as human shields against anticipated air-strikes

In order to avoid civilian casualties, Israel sends warning messages before attacking terrorist targets advising civilians to leave. Israel prefers to attack empty buildings used to manufacture rockets, even taking into consideration that the terrorists too will be warned and their lives spared.

Hamas, on the other hand, calls on civilians to come and to protect with their bodies the precise locations they expect Israel to attack. Since they know that Israel will usually strike from the air, they send the children to the roofs to prevent the air force from targeting that building. <snip>

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Hamas+war+against+Israel/Hamas+exploitation+of+civilians+as+human+shields+-+Photographic+evidence.htm

[leveymg]

1. Gods versus Monsters. War's as simple as that, isn't it?

That philosophy has been expressed before: "Got Mit Uns."

[TooBigaTent]

2. Yeah, Israel has such a concern for the Palesinian people. That must be why they

have occupied their land for decades and destroyed the little arable land they allow the original owners to farm.

When the populace of an occupied territory joins in its defense, the invaders will have a harder time.

It is an unequal war so each side uses the weapons it has.

[LeftishBrit]

34. And Hamas also seems to have such a concern for most of the Palestinian people...

NOT.

[drmeow]

3. If you read the same thing coming from

the US Department of Defense claiming about Iraqis or terrorists or anyone else our government perceives as an enemy of the US (like protesters or citizens labeled enemy combatants by GWB), would you believe it? If not, why do you accept Israel's propaganda without question?

[Phx_Dem]

4. there is a tremendous amount of documented evidence

showing the use of human shields by Hamas. Unfortunately forum rules prevent people from posting pictures.

[hifalutin]

6. I don't think I would

like to see them anyway!

Is Hamas really that evil?

[number6]

7. have you seen the picture of the Palestinian

boy tied to the Israeli Jeep

thats what I'd call a human shield

"showing the use of human shields by Hamas. Unfortunately forum rules prevent people from posting pictures."

then provide a link

[drmeow]

10. There is also a tremendous amount of evidence

that Israel commits pretty horrendous atrocities against the Palestinians including the slaughter of civilians. I don't believe 90% of what Israel says and I don't believe 75% of what Hamas says. The article that this linked to is at the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Its propaganda and not more accurate or appropriate than a post linking to a Hamas website.

[Vegasaurus]

11. self delete-wrong thread

[msmcghee]

12. These phony charges are a constant in this forum.

Yet I have never seen any clear evidence that Israel targets civilians. OTOH there is much evidence that they do not. Nearly every adult in Israel has served in the IDF. You'd think out of those millions of person-years of service going back to 1948, one of them would come forward and state that he /she was actually ordered to kill civilians for no reason - as a matter of IDF policy.

Actually, when I challenged her, one member here did come up with one purported incident a few months ago. Turns out it was someone violating orders for which they were tried and punished by an Israeli court - which kind of proves that Israel does not target civilians.

There's also the existential problem. How would Israel month after month, year after year of thousands of operations - stage such an elaborate and successful hoax. Their operations always seem to be cleverly aimed at militants. You know, boots on the ground, arresting known terrorists, rocket mfg centers, vehicles with militants blown up, etc. But when civilians are injured or killed the charges come that Israel was actually targeting the civilians. Do you think they wait until civilians are near militants so they can kill the civilians and make everyone think they were targeting the militants? Wouldn't it be far easier, far less costly and kill many more civilians if they just lobbed 155 mm artillery into Gaza neighborhoods. Why endanger the IDF by making them go in? Killing lots of civilians in densely packed neighborhoods is not so hard to do.

You'd think after all this time a reasonable case could be made for this truly nonsensical charge.

Naturally, I expect you to continue believing as you do and I don't expect to change your mind by challenging you. But, there are many people out there who would be far more sympathetic toward the Palestinian cause if such charges could be validated with some reasonable evidence showing actual Israeli policy being carried out over a reasonable period of time to target civilians - even one real case of that would be alarming.

You say there is a "tremendous amount of evidence". Care to try offering some? Without something believable along those lines I doubt many people except the usual crowd are going to see such charges as more than another libel of Jews.

If you decide to try - let me remind you that the numbers of civilians killed vs. militants is not a valid argument as the number is quite reasonable considering that the militants constantly use civilians for cover. It's amazing that more civilians are not killed under those conditions.

[subsuelo]

13. Haaretz reporter in Gaza just this past week reported on Israeli forces targeting civilians

What more do you want?

:shrug:

No serious observer of the region can any longer deny it - Israeli forces target civilians, and they murder them with the same bitter hatred harbored by the Hamas terrorist.

The only difference between the Hamas terrorist and Israeli forces is the means with which they have to kill one another. That's it. Both are as low as the other. If there ever was a moral high ground held by either side - that high ground was lost. Years ago.

[msmcghee]

14. Oh, why didn't you say so?

A reporter says Israel targets civilians. That changes everything. :saracasm:

Seriously, is that all you've got? After 70 years of violent confrontation?

[subsuelo]

16. Ignoring reports wont change the facts

You said it doesn't happen, I provided an example of a report stating that it does.

What more do you want?

:shrug:

[msmcghee]

18. Reports are not proof of anything.

Anybody can write a report. I'm asking for credible evidence.

[subsuelo]

20. Oh, Haaretz reporters are not credible now?

[msmcghee]

21. I'll respond the next time anybody here . .

. . offers a serious comment on this. This one doesn't qualify.

[subsuelo]

22. Oh ok, now Haaretz is not serious any more?

Interesting response. Haaretz reports on something you don't want to hear, so you attack the source as being not serious.

[msmcghee]

23. Look, I'm not asking you to convince me. My point is that . .

. . people who have not taken sides in this conflict are unlikely to be swayed against Israel and to take up the Palestinian cause as easily as many in this forum are.

I'm asking if you have evidence that would sway an unbiased objective observer. Most rational people would not condemn a state of a policy of wanton murder based on a journalist's story in a newspaper. They might be open to looking for actual evidence that was instigated by such a report but no, most rational people would not condemn anybody based on such flimsy evidence. How did the reporter know that Israel targeted the civilians - and for no military purpose - and that it was Israel's policy and not some renegade officer - or a simple mistake - or a misaligned gunsight? During wars armies kill their own soldiers with friendly fire all the time. Basic mistakes in the fog of war. How did the reporter know this was purposeful murder? Did he provide evidence of that?

The same is pretty much true about HR orgs. Most of them get donations in proportion to the number of charges of war crimes they make against Israel. They make a big noise and commotion on-line and in their reports but then those are never translated into meaningful war crimes trials for some reason. I suspect it's because no court would indict Israel or any other nation based on the evidence available. For example, what happened to the Qana ambulance "war crime" that HRW raised such a commotion about? Answer - the charges were laughable and ludicrous. No war crimes venue even acknowledged them. They would lose credibility for pursuing real war crimes violations if they did.

One reason for that is that criminal law is usually based on precedent. The evidence for Israeli war crimes doesn't pass that test. As far as I know, no nation has been indicted much less convicted of war crimes for defending itself. There is ample evidence that Israel actually exercises great caution in its operations regarding civilian lives and that Israel's operations are defensive in nature. Prosecutors with actual standing don't invest time and resources in such things unless the evidence for criminal intent is clear.

See what I mean? I'm not looking to get into a court trial here with you or change your mind about anything. I just want to know if you have any clear objective evidence that Israel instructs it's army to go out and kill civilians.

[subsuelo]

24. Any evidence that would sway an unbiased objective observer?

I chose Haaretz as the source to challenge your claim, precisely because it's probably the one source around here that 99% of forum participants would agree as being credible to some degree.

Can you name a source more widely accepted than Haaretz?

I posted another article here today, about an entire Gazan family being sprayed with Israeli helicopter fire. These reports will continue to come in. Peace groups, human rights groups, and a wide array of news sources provide all the credible evidence I need. So start paying attention, instead of obviously attacking a widely accepted source just because you don't like what is being reported on.

[msmcghee]

25. You don't know what evidence means, obviously. n/t

[subsuelo]

26. oh right, let me just hop on that link you provided

to Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs website.

Now there's a whole crock pot of unbiased goodness! Thanks!

What do you want, a field trip to Gaza? Home videos of Palestinian kids and families sprayed with Israeli gunfire?

[msmcghee]

27. Don't change the subject to try to avoid . .

. . the question. You were going to provide some clear unequivocal evidence that Israel targets civilians. Remember?

Where is that evidence?

[msmcghee]

28. Since you've posted several comments to other threads I'll assume . .

. . you've lost interest in this one - at least for now.

I think it's important to note that despite the daily accusations that the IDF targets Palestinian civilians as a matter of policy, there is really no convincing evidence of this - while there is a great amount of evidence that Israel actually tries very hard - probably harder than most western nations involved in wars - to avoid Palestinian civilian casualties.

I am not saying that mistakes don't occur nor am I saying that a stressed out soldier might take out his frustrations on innocent civilians at times. Such things happen in any armed conflict. That is not the same as Israel targeting civilians as a matter of policy which is the accusation being discussed.

I don't mean this as a "gotcha moment" but I think it's relevant because civilian lives really are placed at risk by such unfounded accusations. These are very serious accusations to make and anyone who values civilian lives should be very careful when making them. If they are made for political reasons and are not based on actual evidence then the lives of innocent civilians are placed in greater danger because when real war crimes might occur - no-one will pay attention to accusations when so many accusations for political purposes were made in the past.

[subsuelo]

30. You assume too much - I've merely been away from a computer

Now, back to the subject: this is actually a "gotcha moment". The "gotcha" is that you posted some statements that I challenged with a report from Haaretz. Yet, instead of giving the Haaretz report even a moment's worth of your consideration, you instead decided that Haaretz was neither credible or serious.

So, that's the "gotcha". You got caught attacking a source merely on the basis that the report runs counter to the false claims you have been repeating.


As I said earlier, if you start paying attention, you will find plenty of other reports stating the same thing. Amnesty International, citing "indiscriminate killings of civilians". Another report I posted yesterday citing a family in Gaza being sprayed with Israeli helicopter gunfire. The Haaretz report from Gaza that you decided suddenly they have no credibility and cant be taken seriously.

So, my accusations and statements are far from unfounded. I'm not just making this stuff up. This is what human rights groups are reporting on, this is what several news sources are saying, including the most widely accepted news source in this forum, Haaretz.

And as a matter of fact, speaking of unfounded accusations, you make this completely unfounded claim about human rights groups:

Posted by msmcghee
Most of them get donations in proportion to the number of charges of war crimes they make against Israel

Do you have a shred of evidence anywhere that can back that up?

[msmcghee]

31. While you were away from your computer . .

. . someone posted several comments using your name - according to the DU search engine. But that's not so important. What is important is that you don't understand what I'm asking for. Please try to understand what I'm saying here if you wish to pursue this further.

After 70 years of armed conflict and hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of unit IDF operations - if there was actually a "tremendous amount of evidence", as you and others claim, that Israel orders the IDF to target civilians for no military or defensive purpose - then common sense says that somewhere, someplace there would have to be some unequivocal, clear, and compelling evidence that that claim is true.

A human rights group saying they "saw" a tractor driver run over Rachel Corrie on purpose and they "knew" he could see her - is not clear unequivocal evidence of that. A human rights group saying they are "absolutely certain" that Israel fired missiles through the exact center of the red crosses on the top of two ambulances in Qana - is not clear unequivocal evidence of that.

In neither of those examples does the accuser offer testimony by an IDF person saying yes, I was ordered to kill Rachel Corrie with my tractor by my commander who simply wanted me to kill her for no military purpose - and that he was following the orders of our government that has an ongoing policy of killing Palestinain civilians and making it look like we were going after terrorists.

Or, "yes, I ordered that pilot under my command to fire missiles at those ambulances knowing that there was no military purpose and that only innocent civilians were inside. I ordered him to kill them because my orders are to kill as many Palestinain civilians as possible but to make make it appear that we are only going after militants. On (date) I attended a briefing by general (name) where this policy was spelled out clearly to me and several hundred fellow officers of the (brigade) at camp (location) and we were sworn to never discuss this this with anyone. Here is my signed statement"

See, I'm looking for something real and compelling here. Something that contains enough detail that it could be checked out independently and testimony taken under oath and penalty of perjury. Something that would make an uninterested observer step back and say whoa, if these verifiable statements are true - these people do have a policy of killing civilians and have covered it up for 70 years. Some third party observer who "interprets" what he or she sees as criminal intent is not sufficient for this question. I'm looking for something that would cause a reasonable and experienced prosecutor to seek an indictment.

Like I said, after 70 years and millions of man-years of combat operations by the IDF - I think if Israel actually did have such a policy, and based on my observation that at least some Israelis tend to pay a lot of attention to questions of what we call western morality, I think it is reasonable to expect that somewhere, someplace, such compelling evidence would appear. Another factor supporting my premise is that all Israelis are expected to do a couple of years of military service. This means that after all this time and opportunity - it seems reasonable to me that some highly moral Israelis with great sympathy for the Palestinians are bound to have witnessed and be aware of such a policy and would feel compelled to come forward.

Do you have even one example of such clear and compelling evidence? Something that would induce others to see such accusations as clearly more than a desire to smear Israel and the Jews who live there?

[subsuelo]

29. What do you want, a field trip to Gaza?

You realize this is an internet message board, right? What else, outside of reports from on the ground, can be provided on a discussion board?

[Douglas Carpenter]

15. I don't think some people are the least bit interested in evidence

but just in case some are they can very easily take a look at the reports put out by a number of independent human rights organizations:

International Committee of the Red Cross/Palestinian Territories:

http://www.icrc.org/Web/Eng/siteeng0.nsf/htmlall/palestine?OpenDocument



http://www.btselem.org/english/About_BTselem/Index.asp

Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions:

http://www.icahd.org/eng

The Public Committee Against Torture in Israel

http://www.stoptorture.org.il/eng/background.asp?menu=3&submenu=3

Physicians for Human Rights - Israel

http://www.phrusa.org/healthrights/phr_israel.html

Amnesty International/Israel and Occupied Territories:

http://www.amnestyusa.org/countries/israel_and_occupied_territories/index.do

Human Rights Watch/Israel and Occupied Territories:

http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/israel/

Machsom Watch (Monitors abuse at checkpoints)

http://www.machsomwatch.org/en

daily reports:
The Palestinian Human Rights Monitoring Group (PHMRG)

The Palestinian Human Rights Monitoring Group (PHMRG) A distinctly Palestinian organization that monitors human rights abuses on both sides. They are particularly aggressive and meticulous about monitoring human rights abuses committed by the Palestinian Authority or Palestinian organizations:

http://www.phrmg.org /

[msmcghee]

17. Don't change the question.

We are not talking about human rights abuses. We are talking about the IDF deliberately targeting civilians with no defensive or military purpose. You know, like Hamas and other militants do every day of the week and brag about it.

[msmcghee]

33. Douglas, If you believe that any of your examples . .

. . satisfy the criteria I posted in #31 above, please pick one and explain how it does that. From my perusal of your examples they don't seem to qualify in that way as clear and compelling evidence of criminal intent on the part of Israel. But maybe I'm missing something and you can explain it to me.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[msmcghee]

35. I have waited several days to give anyone who wishes . . .

. . a full chance to provide any serious compelling evidence that Israel has a policy (or ever had a policy) of targeting Palestinian civilians - a serious charge of "crimes against humanity" that is typically repeated ad nauseum in this forum.

I would hope that the silence that has come in response to this clear challenge will put an end to this vicious claim - although as everyone realizes by now, there's no reason to believe that will happen.

BTW, I am not asking for some absolute proof. I'm asking for one piece of credible, compelling evidence that such a charge has just a reasonable chance to be true. The death of civilians in the civilian neighborhoods and homes that the militants operate from is not proof or even evidence of intent. A civilian that dies when a militant's vehicle is hit by a missile is not evidence of intent to target civilians.

However, it is reasonable to expect that after 70 tears of violent conflict where even those Israelis who are quite sympathetic to Palestinians went through their national service just like all other young Israelis, and after those millions of person-years of exposure to the Israeli military system, and many hundreds of thousands of armed engagements against Palestinians - at least one of those IDF enlistees, would have been exposed to actual Israeli policy decision-making - and would be willing to come forward to expose Israel's "real policy" of targeting civilians for no military purpose - if that were true. I am simply making an argument for credulity - for reasonable probability. There should be someone with names, dates, document copies, etc. - something that could be independently verified. This would certainly bring the charges of "targeting civilians" at least into the category of reasonable and plausible. Without something like that to justify these claims and charges - the charges will remain where they should - in the tin-foil hat, Protocols of the Elders of Zion, blood in the Matzah - zone of well-worn anti-semitic canards.

But this is not only a lie - as this thread shows by the lack of even one substantive response - but it is feeding into anti-semitic hatreds and the raising of unfounded fanaticism against Jews that have been part of Jewish existence for 2000 years now. It seems to me that rather than buy into this destructive libel - that liberals especially, would have the integrity to see it as the disgusting anti-Jewish bigotry that it is.

I'll leave open this challenge in case anyone here ever wants to seriously address it. Absent such a response, I'll also be selectively offering links to this post when I see unfounded accusations that "Israel targets civilians" in the future.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

5. What a joke!

[pelsar]

8. why deny it?

its been going on for a long time......from using kids as messengers from snipers using populated buildings, kassams/mortars from between buildings, etc

its hardly anything new.......

[azurnoir]

32. I will agree

it has been going on for a very long time, but not just Palestinians or Arabs, kids have been used in warfare or resistance by virtually every culture on earth.

[Vegasaurus]

9. What else is new?

Hamas uses civilians as pawns in everything they do.

Such wanton disregard for human life.