Report: Yeshiva graduates plan revenge attack against Arab figure

[Scurrilous]

<snip>

"Students from the Mercaz Harav yeshiva in Jerusalem, where an Israeli Arab gunman killed eight students last Thursday, planned a revenge attack against a senior Arab official affiliated with a Jerusalem mosque, Channel 1 television reported Tuesday.

The attack has not been carried out and no arrests have been made, Channel 1 quoted security sources as saying.

According to the report, three yeshiva alumni met at the school with two rabbis to discuss whether Jewish law would permit such an attack. The television channel reported that one of the rabbis gave his blessing for the attack, and an additional rabbi from a Tel Aviv suburb also gave his approval for the attack.

"Torah law is that you should respond," Channel 1 quoted one of the rabbis as saying.

The plan was to harm a senior Arab official affiliated with a mosque at the disputed Jerusalem holy site, Temple Mount, Channel One said."

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[DemocratInSoCal]

1. Everybody Knows That God & Jesus Were All About Revenge

Isn't one of the 10 Commandments....."Thou Shalt Kill."?

[hifalutin]

3. And I will

bless them that bless thee and curse them that curse thee.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[subsuelo]

2. "Torah law" eh?

Sometimes I forget about the whole religious element to this conflict. Then these stories occasionally pop up.

*sigh*

Depressing.

[oberliner]

9. Israel was founded as a secular country and Torah is not the law of the land

Although, clearly, some would prefer it to be otherwise.

[MaryCeleste]

24. hmmmm, not quite

The people involved are religious Jews. They apparently were considering if a revenge attack was allowed within the context of their faith. From there they would have to consider if it was allowed by secular law and finally their own conscious. From there they would make their decision. Its not clear what decision was reached on a religious level. Per another post in this thread, nothing came of it.

[breakaleg]

5. These people are the least religious people I've come across. It's ironic that they are from a

seminary school. Clearly, they've learned nothing.

[Shaktimaan]

6. what makes you say that?

They are certainly religious. You may not like their ideology, but that doesn't mean they aren't religious.

[breakaleg]

7. No God wants people to kill in his name. There is nothing religious about abusing religion to

excuse a crime.

[oberliner]

8. Have you read Exodus lately?

People in yeshivas study Torah. They are nothing if not religious.

Whether being religious is a good thing or not is another question altogether.

[azurnoir]

10. The Torah or Old Testament as Christians know it

Duray(sp) and King James divide it into more and smaller "books" and it in the Koran but essentially it is the same, are pretty rife with "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" the part that is never mentioned is that it is pretty damned hard to keep fighting when both sides render themselves blind and toothless, so perhaps this G-d character isn't so dumb after all.

[hifalutin]

11. The reason why

one does not see the 'eye for an eye' and other violent 'old testament' quotes mentioned by Christians is that the old laws (law of Moses) was washed away by the 'New Testament' beginning with Mathew, which preaches the most important thing to God is love, for God IS love.

[azurnoir]

13. Christian fundies thump the

Old Testament all the time, and have you never heard the phrase "G-d Fearing" I have only heard it Christians so if G-d is love what's to fear?

But I will admit that I am not very familiar with the "New Testament"

[hifalutin]

17. What's to fear?

Ever hear of judgement day?

[azurnoir]

20. Judgement day

but doesn't everyone get one last chance to "repent" at the final moment?

[hifalutin]

21. According

to the Christian bible the only way to forgiveness is if you believe in Jesus Christ as God's son and ask Him to forgive your sins.

If you were hit by a truck or died suddenly some way, you would have no time to ask, it would be too late then.

God judges men by their hearts and deeds.
God knows those who are His.
But God also says 'I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy'

[Dick Dastardly]

27. I am not going to hell

I was already there and they kicked me out. They were afraid I was going to take over:evilgrin: :evilfrown:

[Looking4Light]

14. Excellent! n/t

[Shaktimaan]

12. We're not discussing God. We're discussing religion.

Do you honestly believe that there aren't religions that espouse violence out there?

I find it incredible that after spending so much time arguing in this forum that you can still look at things so two dimensionally sometimes. Have you ever considered that not every religion or culture in the world holds the exact same moral beliefs as yourself? How can you sit there and decree that anyone who holds a certain view (however despicable it may be) is "abusing their religion."

No God wants people to kill in his name.

How do you know that? You really think that at their core all religions have the same basic ethical rules, and they just happen to adhere to your own personal ethical viewpoint? You are not only totally wrong, but this argument is so incredibly offensive and culturally ignorant I can't believe you said it.

Look, people have been arguing over exactly what God wants for forever. Within any single religion there are different sects who hold different beliefs... some extremist. I have no doubt that these students actually believe they are doing God's will and there is no question that they are in fact extremely religious. Just as the 9/11 terrorists were religious, just as Baruch Goldstein was religious. They are not using their religions to excuse their crimes, their crimes are derived FROM their religion.

Now you may say that their beliefs are reprehensible, (and I'd agree with you.) But you have no right to decide the meaning of their religion for them and determine that they are practicing wrong or abusing their religion. Firstly, it is a form of cultural imperialism, to decide right/wrong belief for others, (especially when those in question have dedicated their lives to studying a religion that you don't belong to or even know much about.) But beyond that it is a huge cop out. It is so much easier to deride people who hold gross religious views as being incorrect in their interpretation of the religion than it is to admit that aspects of the religion they practice are reprehensible.

There is a liberal belief which holds that people are basically the same everywhere you go. That they hold the same things important, in the same order and degree as you or I do. This belief is so strong it can end up turning into a parody at times, as it did here. The thinking could only have been, "Well, since everyone is basically the same, and I know that my religion espouses peace as a central tenet then all religions must have this same belief. Therefore, since these guys who live on the other side of the planet and practice a different religion have come to a conclusion that violates this tenet the only possibility is that they are wrong about their religion."

Guess what. They aren't. They just aren't like you at all. You will not be able to understand them because their values are so different from your own as to seem irrational and incomprehensible. They are practicing their religion correctly. It is just a bad religion with values that oppose our own. We are right. They are wrong. Get over it.

If you don't believe me just think of the story of Abraham and Isaac. As a test, God tells Abe to kill his son. And he passes the test. Even if God stops him at the last second, the lesson is clear... obeying God is more important than your son's life. Not willing to sacrifice your son for God's will? Me neither. So who is practicing Judaism incorrectly, me or Abraham?

[azurnoir]

15. About those "librul" cultural beliefs

"There is a liberal belief which holds that people are basically the same everywhere you go. That they hold the same things important, in the same order and degree as you or I do. This belief is so strong it can end up turning into a parody at times, as it did here. The thinking could only have been, "Well, since everyone is basically the same, and I know that my religion espouses peace as a central tenet then all religions must have this same belief. Therefore, since these guys who live on the other side of the planet and practice a different religion have come to a conclusion that violates this tenet the only possibility is that they are wrong about their religion."

Guess what. They aren't. They just aren't like you at all. You will not be able to understand them because their values are so different from your own as to seem irrational and incomprehensible. They are practicing their religion correctly. It is just a bad religion with values that oppose our own. We are right. They are wrong. Get over it.

Closer to the truth is Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, which states that's that all people start with the same basic needs, however how those needs are fulfilled is different, your post is personal judgment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs

[breakaleg]

16. I disagree.

If you want to believe something, you can find an excuse for it wherever you choose to look. Saying that a crime is derived from religion is only true if you were looking for it there in the first place.

Just because extremists abuse their religion to find excuses for such things, doesn't mean the religion itself inspired violence. And if you look around to all faiths there are peaceful people who follow those same religions. Are you saying they missed the true intent?

[Shaktimaan]

18. You are misunderstanding me.

And the nature of religion, to some extent, I think.

First of all there are religions that approve of war and violence. Think of the ancient norse gods. There's less of that now because religion is essentially a philosophy for how to live, and as trade has increased between different groups one's own survival has become linked to being able to have peaceful relations with other tribes.

Within each large religion though there will always be various sects who disagree as to how to interpret the authoritative texts such as the Tanach or Bible. Think of the animosity between protestants and catholics. We can essentially think of violence as just one of the facets of any religion that any sect can interpret for themselves.

In this case I don't think that the crime is derived from Judaism, the religion isn't commanding them to kill. But I do think that their interpretation of the religion allows for it. They are not abusing the religion's true meaning any more than catholics are by performing the eucharist. It isn't like religion, any religion, exists on its own... there's no such thing as a "true intent" for any religion. There are only various interpretations. Religion has no absolute truth of its own, it doesn't exist in an independent state, it requires people to originate, interpret, and fulfill it... otherwise there would be no ambiguity.

For Jews, Christianity is an abuse of the religion's basic tenets. For Christians, (most Christians anyway), Mormonism is a similar abuse. Many don't even consider it Christianity at all. Would you say that they're right? That Mormons have missed their religion's true intent? Or would you merely say that they practice different versions of the same religion?

You argued that saying their religion permitted retaliation showed these students to be non-religious, and to be abusing their religion. By saying that you are making absolute, general rules about their religion, and all religions. Absurd ones at that. These people live their lives according to what is and what is not allowed according to their beliefs. That Judaism doesn't disallow for their actions does not mean anything, in and of itself. That they made sure to confer with experts before considering taking such actions speaks to their commitment to Judaism.

Now, it is possible that you happen to know more about Judaism than these Jerusalem Rabbis and Yeshiva alumni that they conferred with. But I doubt it, as evidenced by your close-minded approach to religions in general. You essentially said, "All religions believe in such and such. Anyone who disagrees with that is not only wrong and abusing their religion but they are completely non-religious as well."

You do realize how incredibly ignorant and closed-minded it is to even make such sweeping generalizations about religion. But to then judge people who disagree as "abusing their religion" and "non-religious" is just ridiculous. Especially considering that you know next to nothing about Judaism and the people you're criticizing have devoted their lives to its study and practice.

Seriously dude, have you ever been outside of this country? It's a big world. Not everyone is exactly like yourself.

[msmcghee]

19. I know you'll never hear this from those . .

. . who you usually address in your posts . . but it is really a pleasure to read the words of someone who thinks carefully about what they are saying and how they are saying it. That's aside from agreeing or disagreeing although I'm almost always in the former category. But it's really cool to read someone's well-reasoned and well-conveyed thoughts. Thanks. :thumbsup:

[Meshuga]

25. Nice answer!

:applause:

But I don't think that Judaism sees Christianity as "abuse of the religion's basic tenets". It sees Christianity as another religion that has its right to believe as they wish. Judaism is not that worried about belief. Judaism is worried about Jews embracing Jewish law (for Orthodox and Masorti) or Jewish folkways (for all) or Jewish ethics (Reform). If a group consults Jewish law before acting and decides to respect Jewish law then they are doing what religious Jews do. Obviously not all laws are explicit so they are left for interpretation otherwise we wouldn't have so many heated debates within the Jewish community. :-)

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[henank]

22. Shin Bet: Reports of plans to retaliate against Arabs unfounded

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Reports of plans for a retaliatory attack against Israeli Arabs following the terror attack at Mercaz Harav yeshiva are unfounded, the Shin Bet stated Saturday.

The Shin Bet had been investigating reports that such attacks were being planned by right-wing Jews as revenge for the shooting attack at Jerusalem that left eight students dead, but found those reports to be untrue.

Security sources said that the probe had been given precedence, in light of the rising tensions among Israel's Arab public after reports of a possible retribution have been published.

[Scurrilous]

26. Take off the masks

Rabbis say no mercy should be shown to Arab killers, but what about Jewish murderers?

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3520200,00.html

<snip>

"One cannot but recall that Jewish murderers who massacred others with a machinegun at the Cave of the Patriarchs and in the Islamic College in Hebron.

One cannot but recall the funeral held for “Baruch (Goldstein) the man” at his magnificent gravesite and the park around it. And this is what one of the important rabbis of Religious Zionism said in his eulogy for the killer from Hebron: “He is a martyr killed by gentiles for being a Jew, and therefore he joins the victims of the Nazi Holocaust.” One cannot but recall the honor bestowed upon his relatives. So take off the masks.

One cannot but recall the Jew who entered the Islamic college in Hebron armed with a machinegun and murdered three students. He was sentenced to life in prison and later pardoned by the president. Today he is known as a rabbi and publishes articles. And we have not forgotten the Jewish murderer who killed seven Arab laborers at the Gan Havradim junction in 1990. So take off the masks.

One cannot but recall the incredibly well-reasoned requests by the rabbis who asked that Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin’s murderer be allowed to get married and celebrate his son’s bar mitzvah. Had the murderer from Jabel Mukaber who carried out the yeshiva attack stayed alive, would we also allow him to get married and have children?

[subsuelo]

28. Double standards and hypocrisy

nothing new unfortunately