Tough love for Israel?

[pelsar]

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/07/24/opinion/edkristof.php

After I wrote a column last month from Hebron in the West Bank, my blog, nytimes.com/ontheground, was flooded with counterarguments - and plenty of challenges to address them. In the interest of a civil dialogue on the Middle East, here are excerpts from some of the readers' defenses of Israel's conduct in the West Bank and my responses:

To withdraw from the West Bank without a partner on the Palestinian side will find Israel in the same fix it has once it withdrew from Gaza: a rain of daily rockets. Yes, the security barrier causes hardship, but terrorist attacks have almost disappeared. That means my kids can ride the bus, go to unguarded restaurants and not worry about being blown up on their way to school. Find another way to keep my kids safe, and I'll happily tear down the barrier. (Laura)

This is the argument that I have the most trouble countering. Laura has a point: The barrier and checkpoints have reduced terrorism. But as presently implemented, they - and the settlements - also reduce the prospect of a long-term peace agreement that is the best hope for Laura's children.

======
his answer- nothing more than some ifs and a belief that maybe..... and he actually believes that abbas has support.....


If Israel were to stop the settlements, ease the checkpoints, allow people in and out more freely, and negotiate more enthusiastically with Syria over the Golan Heights and with the Arab countries on the basis of the Saudi peace proposal, then peace might still elude the region. But Israel would at least be doing everything possible to secure its long-term future, rather than bolstering Hamas.

here he seems to have forgotten that the wall and checkpoints are in fact relatively new......there werent there pre olso and came as nothing else worked well......nor is there an answer there to any kassams or mortars that might just rain down on Jerusalem, netanya, afula etc as in sedrot, nor is there any kind of hint of if this enthusiastic negotiation doesnt work .....then what will he support in terms of israel defending itself...shall israel take back the westbank? rebuild the wall?....

[jeff30997]

1. Great post.

Too bad I can't recommend it.Some peoples don't care about the long term.Just like kids.That's really sad.

[notfullofit]

2. You are damned if you do and damned if you don't. nt

[Vegasaurus]

3. And if you are an Israeli, you will take the public flogging

by so -called "progressives", rather than allow your citizens to be terrorized and murdered.

Sucks for the Palestinians, but maybe they should rethink their "violent resistance" strategy, since it is only making their lives more restrictive.

Walls and checkpoints save lives.

They will go away when Palestinian leadership and militants finally learn that the lives of their people are more important than killing Israelis.

[shaayecanaan]

4. If barriers and checkpoints are all you need...

then the solution to your security concerns is straightforward. Simply invade Gaza, set up a few checkpoints and you could have peace by lunchtime tomorrow.

The fact is Israel did not leave Gaza out of magnanimity. It left Gaza because it was unable to stem the smuggling of arms from Egypt and the one or two people killed by Qassams each year is less than the two or three each month that would be killed by small-arms fire if Israeli soldiers were still in Gaza.

Of course, the reason for the scarcity of both rifles and home-made rockets in the West Bank is due largely to the fact that Jordan goes to much greater lengths to curb smuggling than the Egyptians, and for that you can bow your head and thank Abdullah. Things would be a lot more interesting if the West Bankers shared a border with Assad rather than him.

Accordingly, whether or not you keep occupying the West Bank is therefore of little consequence except inasfar as the settlers are concerned. My suggestion to you would be that you leave. By all means, build a wall between you so high that not even Christ himself could piss over it. If anyone shoots missiles at you, bomb the shit out of them.

[pelsar]

5. the westbank is "missile free"...

the reason for the scarcity of both rifles and home-made rockets in the West Bank is due largely to the fact that Jordan goes to much greater lengths to curb smuggling than the Egyptians

fraid not...there is no scarcity of arms....in fact there is plenty....and kassams in case you didnt know are mostly made from fertilizer and simple pipes...all easily attainable within the westbank. The real reason, and as such was admitted by Zachariah ex leader of Jenin's Al Aqsa Martyr's Brigade in the West Bank, are the constant israeli raids......


i would like to clarfy one statement
If anyone shoots missiles at you, bomb the shit out of them.

so am i to understand correctly that you think israel should start "letting loose" in gaza and start bombing the shit out of them?

[shaayecanaan]

7. fraid not...there is no scarcity of arms....in fact there is plenty

Pig's arse. The al-Aqsa brigades themselves have said that it is far too hard to get Kalashnikovs through the border with Jordan and that it is easier to pay corrupt Israelis for Uzis and M-16s. At $5,000 USD a pop, its probably the most expensive street price in the world for an automatic rifle.

so am i to understand correctly that you think israel should start "letting loose" in gaza and start bombing the shit out of them?

Once you withdraw from their territory, and all of it, not just one chunk or another, then yes. The same goes for Lebanon once you give back Shebaa and Syria once you give back the Golan. I promise you this, you can then retaliate all you like and you will not hear a peep out of me.

[Vegasaurus]

9. Israel did withdraw completely from Gaza

and has gotten nothing but terrorism or rockets since.

Same with Southern Lebanon.

Whatever land Israel has "returned" has resulted in much more terrorism.

Do you think the Israelis are crazy?

[pelsar]

11. prices vary....

they got expensive when hamas took over gaza...and many in the westbank started getting a bit scared....but that never stopped the arms flow.....i cant recall a single complaint from the different groups, anyway prices do not explain the lack of kassams out of westbank...whats the excuse for that (they dont have broadband to learn how to make them?)

and yes there will always be an excuse .....gaza wasnt good enough...of course not, mainly because the Palestinians couldnt get their act together. Sheba farms?... that too is another excuse...once upon a time it was syrians and the UN and lebanon and syria agreed when israel pulled out..just because hizballa needs an excuse to attack israel doesnt mean everyone has to fall for it.....

[shaayecanaan]

12. If Abdullah ever gets toppled by the Muslim brotherhood...

you can bet those prices will get a fair bit cheaper, and you'll have a Lebanon on your own back porch.

gaza wasnt good enough...of course not

Because there was never any doubt that it was going to be given back. It was only stupidity that possessed the Israelis to let Egypt give it to them in the first place.

Sheba farms?... that too is another excuse...once upon a time it was syrians

Well, its sure as hell not yours. The US was urging the Israelis to hand it over to Lebanon to try and shore up support for the government. A bit too late now though.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pelsar]

14. you just changed the subject....that was quick.

the subject i believe was; why the westbank has no kassams (answer; israeli raids - unless you still want to claim that jordan keeps out fertilizer and metal pipes)

and why dont you support israel attacking gaza...they were (and will be) shooting at israelis from there. Or are you claiming that all the land has to be returned...so does that include pre 48, post 48, post 67? jerusalem, etc...is there some kind of intl body that will decide?

oh and speaking of intl bodies, it was the UN that agreeded that israel puledl back to its own border from Lebanon and it was the Intl body, the UN that sanctioned the withdrawl and called complete. I guess you take Hizballas view of intl borders over the UN?

___

this is what i find interesting when it comes to the "israeli pullback" and then israel can "morally defend itself"....its never there....because its always a very flexible value system for just when israel is "moral"....and it appears it will never be. There will be no "perfect" withdrawl that everyone agrees upon. Israel pulled out 100% from gaza...whats the problem now?..israel was attacked daily and you still dont believe israel has the moral right to "blast away"

Israel pulls out of Lebanon 100% according to the UN and a "third party non state actor says its not good enough...and you take their word over what was Syrian/Lebanon/Israel and the UN?

[shaayecanaan]

15. 'why the westbank has no kassams'

unless you still want to claim that jordan keeps out fertilizer and metal pipes

I refer you back to my original post. The reason why Israel can easily police the West Bank and break up bomb shops is because there are far fewer small arms in the West Bank than in the Gaza Strip. Israel chooses not to police the Gaza Strip because the costs of policing are higher in human terms than the costs of Qassam missiles.

[pelsar]

16. you are being very confusing....on purpose?

The reason why Israel can easily police the West Bank and break up bomb shops is because there are far fewer small arms in the West Bank than in the Gaza Strip

few arms in the westbank?.....policing the westbank?......
a short history lesson:
many many years ago pre oslo israel did police the gaza. When oslo came about and israel left gaza that made it easier to not just import arms but to make them as well. Gaza became an armed camp and raiding in a couple of jeeps was no longer an option. The vacuum the IDF left was filled with various neighborhood gangs, tribes etc.

Israel has not left the westbank....continues to raid nightly and keeps up intense pressure on the various groups. They're members dont sleep in the same place twice. That is why there are no kassams coming out of the westbank. If and when israel leaves depending upon the political situation the possibility of kassams is very real..and retaking the westbank as in gaza will be very costly.

[shaayecanaan]

18. I dont think I am being confusing...

The Gazans were shooting on average a Qassam missile a day back in 2004, when Israel was still in occupation of the strip. Hamas would like Israel to come back and occupy the strip, because then they would have the opportunity both to shoot missiles and bullets at the Israelis.

Smuggling stuff from Egypt is no great problem, Im surprised Rafah hasnt collapsed underfoot what with all the Palestinian tunnels underneath it. The Egyptian authorities are pretty acquiescent. They will seal the tunnels with concrete when they find them, which is no big deal because the concrete backs up after a few metres and afterwards the residents can simply recreate that small section of tunnel elsewhere. There are no arrests and no one gets their arse busted.

Different story in Jordan. The Jordanian secret police is made up exclusively from the elite ranks of East Bankers who by and large hold the Palestinians in disdain. I have seen the injuries of simple refugees who have been captured by Jordanian forces and they are shocking. I imagine anyone caught trying to emerge from the end of a tunnel would not be treated any more charitably.

The allegation made frequently on these boards is that the disengagement led to Qassams being fired, which is bollocks, as the Gazans started building them back around 2002.

The withdrawals from both South Lebanon and Gaza have been criticised, but had Israel not withdrawn from South Lebanon in 2000, it would have lost an average of two to three soldiers a month for the past eight years. When you look at it from the perspective of 400 less dead soldiers for Israel its been fairly successful.

[pelsar]

20. simple "cause and affect'.

.....when israel was in gaza there were less kassams ..there were less tunnels there were more raids... When israel left, the kassam and mortar production when up, we know this because a lot more were fired.

israel is in the westbank and keeps the pressure on...if israel leaves and there is no strong central govt or the hamas takes over, it is quite reasonable to assume that there will be kassams and mortars on additional israeli cities.

smuggling from jordan is not a requirement for the materials.....

_____________

the short history of the area shows that when israel leaves an area it is quickly filled with more hostile elements to israel.
Israel, gaza and many parts of the westbank during oslo

[shaayecanaan]

22. circular reasoning...

when israel was in gaza there were less kassams ..there were less tunnels there were more raids... When israel left, the kassam and mortar production when up, we know this because a lot more were fired.

Less kassams, but more gunfire. You can stay in Gaza or be shot at, or stay in Sderot and cope with the missiles. No matter how bad a shot they are, the rifles of Hamas are certainly more accurate than their missiles.

Gaza is categorically different from the West Bank. Part of it is the population density which naturally increases the truculence and intransigence of its population. Then you have the fact that Egypt merely administered Gaza, whereas Jordan attempted to annex it and make the population identify as Jordanians, which kept the flame of Palestinian nationalism burning in the Gaza Strip.

Finally, you have the cold peace with Egypt vs the reasonably lukewarm peace with Jordan. Also, the Jordanian distrust of Palestinians that has existed since Black September. The Hashemite dynasty is the best enemy you could hope for. One would hope for Israel's sake that the American wave of democracy in the middle East does not reach Amman.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

6. The consequences of Israel's choices are dire indeed:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x219219

Check out this opinion piece...

[LeftishBrit]

8. I largely agree with this; but I think 'tough love' needs to be applied to both sides

Both sides have become caught up in a dysfunctional vicious circle. Kristof is right that many of Israel's actions are bolstering Hamas; but Hamas' and similar groups' actions are bolstering the Israeli Right - it goes both ways.

Perhaps some American/EU threats to cut aid to both sides unless they reach an agreement within a given time might be the spur that's needed. But I think that a big current problem is that both Olmert and Abbas are seen as weak and possibly on the way out. And then it depends who replaces them. There's probably more of a chance of a Livni/ Barghouti agreement than a Netanyahu/Haniyeh agreement!

[notfullofit]

10. The Golan always was and always will remain Israeli."

Remarks from Netanyahu re the Golan Heights

snip...

The Likud chairman continued to say that "before we liberated the Golan 41 years ago, they were on the mountain and we were in the valley; they fired on us for 19 years, and one day we put a stop to it.

"Standing here one can clearly see that the Golan is essential to Israel's security and deterrence - today more than ever before in light of the rise of Iran and its affiliates," he said.

Netanyahu warned that Syria's ties to Iran were only growing stronger. "Only a few days ago Syrian and Iranian defense ministers signed a new defense cooperation pact, and still there are those who suggest we hand over the Golan to Syria and Iran.

"The region is the single largest buffer zone that is preventing any possibility of an invasion into our small country," he added.


http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/ArticleLayout/CdaArticlePrintPreview/1,2506,L-3549623,00.html

[Violet_Crumble]

17. Great to see Nutty never changes his tune....

He trots out the same tripe about the West Bank always being a part of Israel...

[shira]

19. what about tough love....

What about tough love for Palestinian leadership? As in stop the incitement to hatred. Start cracking down hard on terrorists and their orgs? Reward collaborators for trying to stop terror attacks? Protect christian minorities?

How about that tough love? Instead of excusing all that nonsense as though Palestinians are desperate and cannot be expected to be responsible? the more we think of them that way, the more their leadership will keep using them and making them suffer as ducks and drakes in this senseless war.

Why is this tough love mostly a one-way street? What makes this author certain that if Israel eases up and plays nice, that Palestinian leadership will see Israel being fair and honest and then comply with niceness of their own? Every time Israel gets rid of roadblocks, or withdraws from Gaza (no more settlements, no more IDF) - this shows tough choices for Israelis do not pay off.

This is also the problem with organizations like J-Street who believe tough love for Israel is in order where Israel must make painful choices and concessions.

What makes these people think that doing so will bring peace to the region? What if doing this - and there's good evidence to believe it - would make things much worse and bloodier? Then what? Try again and again with more bloodshed? How freaking stupid is that?

Another one.....occupation is bad, no doubt. Is it necessary? Yes - or else Tel Aviv becomes the next Sderot and many more people die. But is it worse than the situation we see in Gaza with Palestinian self-rule since 2005? Most Gazans prefer life before 2005 and Hamas' takeover and realize their society was more lawful and safer than under Hamas rule.

The point is - some people are impervious to facts and reason - no matter how much the evidence destroys their sacred opinions and narratives. Reasonable people realize that when they are wrong about "tough love, occupation/settlements", the separation barrier, checkpoints, etc.., they need to re-examine and adjust their views to line up more with reality.

[Vegasaurus]

21. Nope, no tough love for the terrorists

we are supposed to "understand" them, to sympathize with them.

Their lives are so miserable, that we are supposed to understand why people blow themselves and innocent people up.

We are supposed to understand why violent resistance means the same thing as "nationalism".

We are supposed to excuse the Palestinians' lack of responsibility for anything in their lives, and blame it all on Israel.

The fact is

THERE WAS TERRORISM BEFORE THE OCCUPATION.

THERE WAS TERRORISM BEFORE THE STATE OF ISRAEL EXISTED.

The Palestinians' problems are not occupation.

They are JEWS in the middle east.

It's time for people to adjust their views to reality is right.

[shira]

23. I'm still wondering why some feel tough love for Israel will result in peace

Many anti-Israel people think Israel needs this "tough love" so that they can make painful concessions that will result in peace. But what makes such people certain that these methods WILL result in peace without the very same tough love required of Palestinians?

I'd like to know.

What if such tough love required of Israel results in far more mayhem, death, and destruction? Then what? Rinse and repeat again and again? Do the same things, expect different results because of......positive thinking? I don't understand the mindset. When has the Palestinian side been held responsible for coming down very harshly - and consistantly - against terrorism (inciting, glorifying it, rewarding it)? Are we to believe that if they ever did this, Israel wouldn't budge in response? How idiotic.

Just wondering. Some say we Israel-firsts don't really want discussions and debates on this. Let's see if the anti-Israel crowd really wants to discuss this.

I won't hold my breath waiting.