IDF soldiers refute claims of immoral conduct in Gaza

[oberliner]

IDF soldiers who took part in January's offensive in Hamas-ruled Gaza refuted on Thursday claims of immoral conduct on the military's part.

The claims were made by soldiers who took part in the war during a post-op conference at the military academy at Oranim. The conference protocol was published Thursday.

"I don’t believe there were soldiers who were looking to kill (Palestinians) for no reason," said 21-year-old Givati Brigade soldier Assaf Danziger, who was lightly injured three days before the conclusion of Operation Cast Lead.

"What happened there was not enjoyable to anyone; we wanted it to end as soon as possible and tried to avoid contact with innocent civilians," he said.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3689388,00.html

[IndianaGreen]

1. We know those Gazans committed suicide or self-immolated

The "most moral army" in our galaxy is beyond reproach, and anyone that disputes that is either an anti-Semite or a self-hating Jew.

:sarcasm:

[shira]

2. of course, the IDF was ordered to murder as many civilians as possible in cold blood

in a very carefully planned effort every bit as nefarious and evil as Auschwitz and Treblinka.

In fact, the IDF was so ruthless and evil in Gaza that they were responsible for killing as many Israeli soldiers as Hamas. What cold-blooded murderers! Why aren't there warcrimes investigations for good IDF soldiers killed by evil IDF soldiers?

:sarcasm:

From the OP:

"I've seen a few things in my time, but even I was blown away by the level of professionalism displayed by the army," Zuaretz said. "I personally gave my soldiers an order on the day we withdrew from Gaza to leave all of our goodies in the last house we occupied. Some reservists even left an envelope full of money to one Palestinian family."

Who believes this nonsense? Well, actually I do kinda....they probably left rotten "goodies" and fake monopoly money, those evil zionists!


"For instance, on three separate occasions my company commander checked soldiers' bags for stolen goods. Those who stole the smallest things, like candy, were severely punished," he said.

Yeah, punished because they didn't steal bigger and more expensive things probably!

"We were forbidden from sleeping in Palestinians' beds even when we had no alternate accommodations, and we didn’t touch any of their food even after we hadn't had enough to eat for two days."

Yeah, because they're obviously racists.....not touching Arab beds or Arab food. Better to starve than touch Arab stuff and get cooties.

"Even when we came across deserted stores, we didn’t even think of taking anything. One soldier took a can of food, but he immediately returned it after everyone yelled at him."

Yeah, because it was canned pork - not kosher. DUH!

Zionist propaganda. I don't buy their attempts at proving they're the most "moral" army in the world. Hamas is WAYYY more moral in every aspect.

:sarcasm:

[IndianaGreen]

12. What you are defending are nothing but a bunch of Hebrew-speaking Freepers

Another version of Manifest Destiny, using the same tactics Saddam and Milosevic used to punish ethnic minorities.

[shira]

13. your hate-filled demonization efforts are 10X worse than RW freeper Islamophobes

we should expect the worst from retarded RW freeper Islamophobe clowns who know nothing but irrational hate and demonization. From enlightened "progressives" like yourself who should know better, the bar should be set just a little higher, dont'cha think? None of this, "but those haters are worse" nonsense.

Oh, maybe you don't get it....I'll explain, you read slowly okay.....you see RW freepers excel at demonizing the entire collective, not just the bad apples....and for some odd reason you "get that" hate for what it is, and understand how hurtful it is. You don't "get it", however, when you (and let's be fair, you're certainly not alone here) do the same thing and demonize the entire collective for the sins of the few. You're worse than "them" (the Islamophobes, in case you're not following). You should know better.

Still don't get it? Well, have you ever heard the expression "you can take a horse to water...."? Yeah. :shrug:

The quotes I responded to from IDF soldiers in the last post - do you think they're lies?

[burythehatchet]

20. "RW freepers excel at demonizing the entire collective" - an exra special quote

for the irony impaired.

That is fuckin rich.

[shira]

25. yeah, sucks when you're busted for your freeper attitude vs. Israel, huh?

if only you criticized and didn't demonize....but you blew it.

Busted.

[burythehatchet]

26. got me!

:)












:rofl:

[shira]

31. yes, I did....and now the elders of zion know about you....better watch it!

:eyes:

[burythehatchet]

21. It was the same tactic used in Lebanon, kill civilians, destroy infrastructure so

the population turns against Hezbollah/Hamas. Seems to be working out real well. Israel has planted the seeds of its own demise.

[Violet_Crumble]

3. Let's play Spot The Bullshit...

From the article: "According to the officer, the IDF went to great lengths and employed the most advanced technology to avoid harming civilian population."

Yeah, that white phospohorous really displayed the great lengths the IDF goes to in order to avoid harming the civilian population....

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[azurnoir]

4. If you can't discredit at least try to obfuscate

if at first you don't succeed........

Meanwhile, and as efficiently, the IDF took another measure: a hasty discredit campaign against the testimony and motives of academy chief Danny Zamir. By Thursday afternoon, the media had been told off the record that: 1. Zamir is a well-known territories-service refusenik (Partly true - he did refuse to serve in 1990, which did not interfere with his advancement in the reserves or position as head of the pre-military academy committee). 2. The texts indicate Zamir "guides" his pupils to release incriminating testimony (Problematic. The minutes of the discussion indicated that the soldiers reported their experiences willingly, although they are not proud of them). 3. Zamir hid the minutes from the IDF, but hastened to release them to the press.

This claim is, pardon me, nonsense, and the army backed off it in the evening hours. E-mail exchanges between Zamir and the chief of staff's office indicate that Zamir first notified the chief of staff on February 23. On March 5, he sent the minutes to an Ashkenazi staff member who had requested them. Unless the chief of staff's office has trouble opening "Word" files (and knowing Colonel Erez Weiner, this is unlikely), the army has known about the testimonies for two weeks.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x265986

[Jefferson23]

5. IDF in Gaza: Killing civilians, vandalism, and lax rules of engagement

During Operation Cast Lead, Israeli forces killed Palestinian civilians under permissive rules of engagement and intentionally destroyed their property, say soldiers who fought in the offensive.

The soldiers are graduates of the Yitzhak Rabin pre-military preparatory course at Oranim Academic College in Tivon. Some of their statements made on Feb. 13 will appear Thursday and Friday in Haaretz. Dozens of graduates of the course who took part in the discussion fought in the Gaza operation.

The speakers included combat pilots and infantry soldiers. Their testimony runs counter to the Israel Defense Forces' claims that Israeli troops observed a high level of moral behavior during the operation. The session's transcript was published this week in the newsletter for the course's graduates.

article in full here: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jefferson23]

7. Another report here too from NYT:

Soldiers’ Accounts of Gaza Killings Raise Furor in Israel

By ETHAN BRONNER
Published: March 19, 2009

JERUSALEM — In the two months since Israel ended its military assault on Gaza, Palestinians and international rights groups have accused it of excessive force and wanton killing in that operation, but the Israeli military has said it followed high ethical standards and took great care to avoid civilian casualties.


Now testimony is emerging from within the ranks of soldiers and officers alleging a permissive attitude toward the killing of civilians and reckless destruction of property that is sure to inflame the domestic and international debate about the army’s conduct in Gaza. On Thursday, the military’s chief advocate general ordered an investigation into a soldier’s account of a sniper killing a woman and her two children who walked too close to a designated no-go area by mistake, and another account of a sharpshooter who killed an elderly woman who came within 100 yards of a commandeered house.

in full here: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/20/world/middleeast/20gaza.html?_r=3&hp

[JohnyCanuck]

8. Video - BBC report "Israeli troops admit Gaza abuses."

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/index.php?cl=12573173

[grassfed]

10. oh good. for a minute there I was concerned.

glad THAT'S over.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

14. Whew! Thanks for clearing that up Oberliner!

[oberliner]

15. Believe what you want to believe

There was one news story with soldiers making claims based on anecdotal evidence. Here is another news story with different soldiers describing their own experience.

One would think that if a person wanted to find out the truth of the situation they would want to hear from as many soldiers as possible to try to get the fullest picture they can.

Or one can just reflexively believe the ones who confirm their own view and disregard the others. I can see how that would be easier.

Like posting one-line sarcastic comments instead of attempting to engage in meaningful dialogue.

[Violet_Crumble]

16. And what's yr opinion on the article you posted?

My opinion is was predictable damage-control and contained a fair dollop of complete bullshit that would be obvious to those who don't just reflexively believe things that confirm their own view...

[oberliner]

17. I think it's helpful in trying to sort it all out

I think there were probably incidents like the ones described in that initial article (the one this is responding to); it's hard to know, however, whether the IDF is dealing with an endemic problem or (as this article suggests) "a few idiots who act inappropriately."

Hopefully there will be a full investigation of the incidents in question, and hopefully more soldiers will come forward and share their stories and observations so that we can get a fuller and clearer picture of what the reality was.

I think that Palestinian eyewitness accounts as well as soldier testimony ought to be taken into account when human rights groups are trying to ascertain whether or not any violations occurred.

The more first-hand information that gets out there, the better.

[Violet_Crumble]

18. I don't think this article falls into the helpful pile...

It was titled as a *rebuttal*, and in the first few paragraphs, one of them was saying he didn't believe the other soldiers experiences had happened, and that's not talking about his own experiences, but trying rather clumsily to discredit someone else's experience. Anyway, I hope the wish to find out all sides of a story doesn't just apply when it's to do with the IDF, but applies for example to Hamas as well...

[oberliner]

19. Thank you for sharing your thoughts

I hope there is a full investigation by the IDF and any criminal acts are punished.

I do think it's a relatively positive development that there is so much soul searching over this in the Israeli (and international) media. Would that the American media spent more time examining the conduct of our own army vis-a-vis civilians in Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere.

Irrespective of whether or not any of the incidents described are entirely accurate, the fact that many innocent civilians, and especially children, were killed in this conflict is absolutely heartbreaking. There is nothing more upsetting than reading the accounts of such deaths, in this or any other conflict around the world.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

22. Most troubling is the array of evidence pointing to a sea change in IDF culture.

Deliberate targetting, the grafitti, the T-shirts, and mostly the humungous pile of dead bodies...

The myriad of "evidence" points to something extremely disturbing. Do you agree with that?

[oberliner]

24. Prejudice and hate is always disturbing

There are a lot of nasty and hateful people in the military and there always have been. Demonization of the "enemy" as illustrated by the graffiti and t-shirts while deplorable is nothing new, and is certainly not unique to Israel. I don't think those incidents represent any kind of "sea change".

If civilians were targeted deliberately then the IDF ought to make sure that those soldiers who committed those crimes are held accountable, much in the same way that the US army took action against the American soldiers who raped that Iraqi girl and then killed her and her family.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

28. So you see no changing culture within the IDF?

[oberliner]

29. Well, I am no expert on the IDF and I'm not an Israeli

I will leave it to someone more knowledgeable than myself to make that determination.

[shira]

30. now you see a change in the IDF?

and all along, you've been claiming Israel was founded on such hate and racism. Well what is it now in your opinion? Was it founded on that, or is it only now that things are changing for the worse?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

33. The concept of "hate" is meaningless. Certainly the implementation of Zionism was racist, as the

indigenous people were forced out, and much evidence of their existence was erased.

While the IDF has always implemented an illegal and immoral occupation, while it has always committed acts that are illegal and immoral, I would say this widerspread ferocity and overt racism is indeed a change for the worse.

[shira]

23. Israel gets no credit for being so openly critical of itself

and more critical of itself than any other nation.....b/c the thinking outside of Israel by many "in the know" is that the powers in charge minimize and ignore everything, and the Israeli populace is either too ignorant or stupid to know this, or they know and are also complicit - which justifies collective demonization of most Israeli Jews apart from "good" ones like Gideon Levy. One has to wonder if any Israelis read their own papers to know just how bad Israel is....GOSH!!!

Remember, there's simply no way that the IDF acts morally 95% or 99% of the time and just makes some unfortunate mistakes or has some bad apples to root out.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

27. That's right Shira. Criticizing itself after the massacre doesn't bring the dead back to life.

More important, it does not seem to prevent future massacres.

It's cheap talk.

[shira]

32. you don't think Israeli self-criticism led to inaction for 8 years against

rocket attacks? Or that self-criticism didn't lead to a majority of Israelis wanting Oslo and a 2-state settlement? Or the withdrawal from Lebanon 2000 and Gaza 2005?

[shira]

38. interesting how some discount this rebuttal to the 2 major charges

that are really nothing more than unsubstantiated rumor of an admittedly accidental killing and another incident that is hearsay. Best to believe rumors based on second hand reports (which is not evidence BTW) and dismiss any counter-evidence, I suppose. Minds are already made up, right?

The 2 main charges against the IDF are pretty weak, actually. It seems this "expose" on the IDF is not much more than a weak attempt to hopefully bring out more charges of misconduct. Not that knowing about and dealing with misconduct is wrong because it's important it's dealt with seriously - but this witchunt seems a pretty sleazy way to go about tramping for such proof.

[IndianaGreen]

34. The only thing to believe is that the US gives Israel $3 billion a year

This is money that is best put to use in America, for Americans. Considering how Israel has disrespected the United States by its endless expansion of settlements on the West Bank, it is high time for America to terminate our co-dependency with the thugs in Jerusalem.

Our throwing money at the Middle East has done no one any good, least of all the American taxpayer.

from the December 09, 2002 edition

Economist tallies swelling cost of Israel to US

By David R. Francis | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

Since 1973, Israel has cost the United States about $1.6 trillion. If divided by today's population, that is more than $5,700 per person.

This is an estimate by Thomas Stauffer, a consulting economist in Washington. For decades, his analysis of the Middle East scene have made him a frequent thorn in the side of the Israel lobby.

For the first time in many years, Mr. Stauffer has tallied the total cost to the US of its backing of Israel in its drawn-out, violent dispute with the Palestinians. So far, he figures, the bill adds up to more than twice the cost of the Vietnam War.

And now Israel wants more. In a meeting at the White House late last month, Israeli officials made a pitch for $4 billion in additional military aid to defray the rising costs of dealing with the intifada and suicide bombings. They also asked for more than $8 billion in loan guarantees to help the country's recession-bound economy.

Considering Israel's deep economic troubles, Stauffer doubts the Israel bonds covered by the loan guarantees will ever be repaid. The bonds are likely to be structured so they don't pay interest until they reach maturity. If Stauffer is right, the US would end up paying both principal and interest, perhaps 10 years out.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1209/p16s01-wmgn.html

[oberliner]

37. That money could have gone to Bear Stearns!

The amount of foreign aid that the US gives to all countries combined (Israel included) makes up a minuscule portion of the budget (under $20b per year).

The impact of cutting all such aid for the American taxpayer would be negligible.

Contrast this amount with the $170b bailout given to AIG, or the $16b per month that we are spending fighting wars in Iraq and Afghanistan - closing in on a total of $3 trillion.

I'm all for re-assessing various budgetary priorities and redirecting funds where they can do they most to help people. A good place to start might be our own military spending and bloated defense budget. Over $600 billion was slated for FY2009 (not including the extra-budgetary funding slated for the aforementioned wars).

[Crunchy Frog]

35. It's not immoral if it's done to Palestinians.

[bemildred]

36. Oh good, dueling IDF soldiers.

You gotta wonder who paid those other guys to self-incriminate? Why, oh why, do they make up all those evil lies about what they saw and did?