Jurists say Arab's rape conviction sets dangerous precedent

[azurnoir]

Lawyers for the Arab man convicted of rape by deception and sentenced to 18 months in prison, say they are considering an appeal to the High Court of Justice.

Sabbar Kashur, 30, had consensual sex with a woman after he posed as a Jewish bachelor interested in a long-term relationship.

When the woman found Kashur was not a Jew but an Arab, she filed a police complaint that led to charges of rape and indecent assault.

"If she hadn't thought the accused was a Jewish bachelor interested in a serious romantic relationship, she would not have cooperated," Judge Zvi Segal wrote in his verdict. Segal said the court had to protect the public from sophisticated criminals who could mislead innocent victims.

Kashur, married and the father of two small children, has been under house arrest for almost two years since the incident occured.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/jurists-say-arab-s-rape-conviction-sets-dangerous-precedent-1.303109

[aquart]

1. He's a scumsucking lying pig but he's not a rapist.

Being suckered is not being raped.

Of course, if his wife decided to do him bodily harm, I don't think I'd vote to convict her, either.

[bemildred]

2. Always a pleasure when we can agree.

If lying your way into some woman's pants becomes a crime, the prisons will be bulging, and we better make lying to get some male sucker to marry you a crime too.

[shira]

3. Agreed - hope it's overturned. 2 years under house arrest is enough.

[aquart]

5. In the same house as his wife?

Did the judge have a sense of humor? Because that is wicked cruel.

[shaayecanaan]

7. Enough? -nt-

[Violet_Crumble]

31. I was a bit taken aback when I saw that post too...

I didn't realise that any punishment was acceptable for lying in order to get sex. I wonder how many years of house arrest men who lie and say they love the woman should get? And whether it's just Arab men who lie who should be punished, but all men?

[shira]

34. Poor choice of words. It's a ridiculous conviction.

[msongs]

4. hmm what does the old testament say about these things? nt

[oberliner]

9. Or the New Testament - or the Koran

“You have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.“ (Matthew 5:27-28)

The (unmarried) woman or (unmarried) man found guilty of sexual intercourse - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion of Allah , if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment. (Surat An-Nūr 24:2)

[shaayecanaan]

6. from the article:-

One such case was that of Eran Ben-Avraham, who told a woman he was a neurosurgeon after which she had sex with him, and was convicted of three counts of fraud.

Elkana Laist of the Public Defender's Office yesterday said the Jerusalem District Court had gone too far in its application of the approach of the High Court, "opening the door to a rape conviction every time a person lies regarding details of his identity. Every time the court thinks a reasonable woman would not have had sex with a man based on that representation, the man will be charged with rape. That approach is not accepted around the world either."

Laist also said the court's verdict was paternalistic toward women. "The test the court adopted is problematic, because it means that every time a man tells a woman he loves her, based on which she sleeps with him, he could be convicted of rape."

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[oberliner]

10. His is the second conviction on the charge of rape by deception

In 2008, the Israeli High Court of Justice convicted Zvi Sliman for impersonating an official in the Housing Ministry and promising women help and benefits to persuade them to have sex with him. Sliman was sentenced to 10 years in prison.

Edit to add: The case mentioned in the OP is ridiculous and the verdict should be overturned.

[LeftishBrit]

12. Pretty serious case of fraud and extortion, but I still wouldn't call it rape

Also: suppose that he really was an official in the Housing Ministry and used his position to bribe women to have sex with him - would that be much better?

In any case, this is a serious crime (even if not rape), whereas the other case is not.

[LeftishBrit]

11. This is ridiculous

It trivializes the meaning of rape. Should people be convicted of rape, if they deceive their partner into thinking that they are younger or richer than they really are, or that they are single when they are anything but? Nasty behaviour but not rape.

Anyone who goes around trying to lure other women when they're married with two small children is a pretty nasty piece of work (having him under 'house arrest' must be a punishment for his *wife*; if I were his wife, I'd want to kick him *out* of the house). But that still doesn't make him a rapist; and the charge is totally ridiculous and unjust.

[aranthus]

13. Right on.

Aside from the zenophobic overtones (why isn't he a rapist for not telling her he was married?, the idea that a man could be considered a rapist for not being absolutely truthful about himself would make all sex rape. This is crazy unjust.

[azurnoir]

14. He impersonated a human

Sabbar Kashur wanted to be a person, a person like everybody else. But as luck would have it, he was born Palestinian. It happens. His chances of being accepted as a human being in Israel are nil. Married and a father of two, he wanted to work in Jerusalem, his city, and maybe also have an affair or a quickie on the side. That happens too.

He knew that he had no chance with the Jews, so he adopted another name for himself, Dudu. He didn't have curly hair, but he went by Dudu just the same. That's how everyone knew him. That's how you know a few other Arabs too: the car-wash guy you call Rafi, the stairwell cleaner who goes by Yossi, the supermarket deliveryman you know as Moshe.

What's wrong? Is it only fearsome Shin Bet interrogators like "Capt. George" and "Abu Faraj" who are allowed to adopt names from other peoples? Are only Israelis who emigrate allowed to invent new identities? Only the Yossi from Hadera who became Joe in Miami, the Avraham from Bat Yam who became Abe in Los Angeles?

No longer a youth, Sabbar/Dudu worked as a deliveryman for a lawyer's office, rode his scooter around Jerusalem and delivered documents, affidavits and sworn testimonies, swearing to everyone that he was Dudu. Two years ago he met a woman by chance. Nice to meet you, my name is Dudu. He claims that she came on to him, but let's leave the details aside. Soon enough they went where they went and what happened happened, all by consent of the parties concerned. One fine day, a month and a half after an afternoon quickie, he was summoned to the police on suspicion of rape.

His temporary lover discovered that her Dudu wasn't a Dudu after all, that the Jew is (gasp! ) an Arab, and so she filed a complaint against the impostor. Her body was violated by an Arab. From then on Kashur was placed under house arrest for two years, an electronic cuff on his ankle. This week his sentence was pronounced: 18 months in jail.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/he-impersonated-a-human-1.303359

[oberliner]

15. A person like everybody else? Who wanted to have an affair or "quickie" on the side?

It's a good thing he was born a Palestinian man, then.

What happens to Palestinian women who want to have an affair or "quickie" on the side?

[azurnoir]

17. are Palestinian women routinely stoned for adultery?

I do know there have been cases in Somalia and Iraq (non-Muslim) in the Iraqi case but in the OPT or Gaza?

[oberliner]

18. I don't believe so

Though incidents like this do occur:

JERUSALEM (CNN) -- A 27-year-old mother of five was bludgeoned to death with an iron chain by her father last week in Gaza in what human rights groups report was an honor killing.

According to police in Gaza, the father, Jawdat al-Najar, heard his daughter Fadia, who had divorced in 2005, speaking on the phone with a man. He believed she was having a relationship with him. Police say al-Najar became enraged and beat her to death; her body was brought to a hospital where officials said she died of a skull fracture.

The woman was beaten to death in the northern Gaza neighborhood of Jebalya on Thursday night. The father called police and confessed to the murder.

According to investigators for the Gaza-based Al Mezan Center for Human Rights, the father and his three sons were taken into police custody. They said the killing "was carried out on grounds related to 'preserving' the honor of the family."

The Palestinian Center for Human Rights, another Gaza-based organization, said hospital forensic reports show the woman's body showed signs of torture and that she suffered a skull fracture from being hit by an iron chain.

Honor killings usually target female victims of rape, women suspected of engaging in premarital sex, and women accused of adultery. They are murdered by relatives because the violation of a woman's chastity is viewed as an affront to the family's honor -- on the woman's part.

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/07/30/mideast.honor.killings/index.html

[azurnoir]

19. ah so a case in Gaza of family violence gets translated into PALESTINIAN WOMEN

I understand, really I do

[oberliner]

20. Is it easier for a Palestinian man or woman to get away with adultery do you think?

But really that is not the point. I don't want to be accused of derailing the thread. You posted an article by Gideon Levy that is as stupid as the actions taken by the judge in this case.

Gideon Levy made a ridiculous generalization in his preposterous article.

Plenty of Palestinian men have sex with Jewish women in Israel without consequence, but Gideon Levy has decided to translate this one unfortunate incident to all Palestinian men.

He writes that "because he was born a Palestinian his chances of being accepted as a human being in Israel are nil."

Does he really believe that this case demonstrates that no Israelis accept any Palestinians as human beings?

That was the ridiculousness I was trying to make a point about.

[azurnoir]

21. This was a case of an Israeli court of law convicting a man

because he said he a Jew when in reality he was an Arab, the State did this unlike the case in Gaza where it family violence

[oberliner]

23. Current laws are discriminatory and do not adequately protect women and girls from “honour” crimes

The Ramallah conference was organised by the UN Human Rights office under the auspices of the Palestinian Ministry of Women’s Affairs and in partnership with the UN Development Fund for Women, and the occupied Palestinian territory’s Independent Commission for Human Rights and Women’s Centre for Legal Aid and Counselling. The objective of the gathering attended by representatives from the Palestinian Authority, the Christian and Islamic communities, civil society and the UN was to pool the available knowledge, raise awareness and launch a national strategy to eradicate the practice.

The Palestinian Minister of Women’s Affairs, Rabiha Diab told delegates that “honour” killings were not a new phenomenon but remained taboo. “It is time,” she said, “for the Palestinian Authority Institutions and religious leaders to prioritize its eradication from our society. The reform of the penal code and the adoption of a Presidential Decree are key steps to end impunity for such crimes.”

Multiple cultural, religious, societal and economic conditions, beliefs and traditions make the practice complex and difficult to eradicate. In the occupied Palestinian territory, accurate figures are not available but law enforcement agencies and the Independent Commission for Human Rights estimate that violence against women is increasing in general, and that the number of women being killed in the name of “honour” has risen.

Conference delegates called on local religious and political leaders to encourage the attitudinal changes necessary to eradicate “honour” killings. The media also has an important role to play. Muntaser Hamdan from the Media Forum urged the Palestinian media to improve its “inadequate coverage of honour killings”.

Participants agreed that the current laws are discriminatory and do not adequately protect women and girls from “honour” crimes, rape, sexual abuse or incest. For example, criminal law provisions throughout the occupied Palestinian territory reduce penalties for men who kill or attack female relatives accused of adultery or extramarital relationships. The central recommendation arising from the conference is for reform and standardization of relevant legislation and criminal codes.

At the conclusion of the conference a Task Force was established under the leadership of the Ministry of Women’s Affairs specifically mandated to address the phenomenon of crimes committed in the name of “honour” in the occupied Palestinian territory.

http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/MurderInTheNameOfFamilyHonour.aspx

[azurnoir]

25. why is that you feel compeled to somehow make Palestinians look guilty

does this somehow lessen what an Israeli court has done or is it simply to distract or provide "balance"

[oberliner]

26. My response was to the Gideon Levy article you posted

That Gideon Levy article you posted provided a distraction from the very legitimate concerns raised by the original article in this thread about the actions of the Israeli court.

My response is to the ridiculously hyperbolic (and blatantly false) claims he makes in the opening paragraphs of that article you decided to introduce into the thread.

[azurnoir]

27. Now I get it your "response" was an attempt to kill the messanger

but one that ultimately only succeeded in helping him make his point one which IMO is being quite willfully and with a fair amount of hyperbole misinterpreted

[oberliner]

28. I am not trying to kill anybody - I just think the article you posted was silly

I don't agree with his fundamental premise about Palestinians in Israel.

[azurnoir]

29. Do you disagree that Israeli Arabs are considered second class

by the majority population in Israel? IMO that was Mr Levy's point

[oberliner]

30. That's not what he wrote

He wrote that because this man was born a Palestinian, the chances of him "being accepted as a human being in Israel are nil."

I strongly believe that to be a false statement.

[Behind the Aegis]

22. What else would you expect from someone like Gideon Levy?

This is all bullshit and hand-wringing nonsense.

[oberliner]

24. I did not realize he believed that no Palestinian is accepted as a human being in Israel

That is quite an extreme claim for him to make.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

33. Well, this episode is certainly supporting evidence for that...

Obviously, there are Jewish Israelis who accept Palestinians as human beings. But there are also an awful lot who clearly don't, including most of the current government.

It's also possibly worth noting that what you're referencing is one throwaway line without clarification.

[oberliner]

35. It absolutely is not evidence of that at all

And it is not a throwaway line, it is the entire premise of the article.

[Tripmann]

16. Another own goal. Whatever else about this guy, to describe him as a rapist is an insult to victims

of rape the world over. Having consensual sex with a man and then finding out he misrepresented himself is not rape.

I find this quote from the judges disturbing:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/0723/1224275297852.html?via=mr

"The judges argued the court was “obliged to protect the public interest from sophisticated, smooth-tongued criminals who can deceive innocent victims at an unbearable price – the sanctity of their bodies and souls”.

Bear in mind the worlds press is reporting that comment.

[depakid]

32. At least it wasn't the American South circa the 1880's-1960''s

though the similarities are undeniable.

[shira]

36. And in New Jersey, husband is found not guilty of raping wife, on religious grounds

http://www.judiciary.state.nj.us/opinions/a6107-08.pdf

[azurnoir]

38. The man was not on trial for rape it was a restraining order rape charges were never filed

from the PDF pages 33 and 34

In the present matter, the judge properly found that
defendant had assaulted and harassed plaintiff in violation of
the PDVA. However he declined to enter a final restraining
order, determining that the domestic violence constituted merely
a bad patch in a short-term marriage and did not result in
35 A-6107-08T2
serious injury to plaintiff, and that plaintiff and defendant
had separated, a divorce proceeding was pending in Morocco, and
the parties had no reason for further contact. Nonetheless, the
judge recognized that contact between the parties would
necessarily occur upon the birth of their child. The judge
additionally appeared to be sufficiently concerned about the
likelihood of renewed domestic violence to instruct defendant to
have no contact with plaintiff. In this regard, he also relied
upon the likelihood that a no contact order had been put in
place as a condition of defendant's bail in the pending criminal
proceedings against him arising from the acts of domestic
violence that formed the basis for the civil action.

[shira]

39. He raped her, got away with it, and she wasn't even granted a restraining order

Bottom of page 6

An additional incident occurred on November 22, 2008. That
morning, following an argument with her mother-in-law, plaintiff
locked herself in her bedroom. Defendant, having been refused
entry, removed the latch from the door, entered the bedroom, and
engaged in nonconsensual sex with plaintiff.


===========

Page 9

However, on the night of the reconciliation, defendant
again engaged in nonconsensual sex three times, and on
succeeding days plaintiff stated that he engaged in further
repeated instances of nonconsensual sex.

After having sex, defendant took plaintiff to a travel
agency to buy a ticket for her return to Morocco. However the
ticket was not purchased, and the couple returned to the
apartment. Once there, defendant threatened divorce, but
nonetheless again engaged in nonconsensual sex while plaintiff
cried.

[azurnoir]

40. your cherry picking show us where rape charges were filed

I read the whole thing

[shira]

41. I just edited the title of my last post to you. Do you really not believe he raped her? N/T

[azurnoir]

42. so you can not show us where charges of rape were filed because none were

your original post is false in its premise

[shira]

43. My original post is incorrect,but do you not believe he raped her multiple times & got away with it?

Answer the question, please.

It's also disgusting she wasn't even granted a restraining order, is it not?

[azurnoir]

44. your changing the goal posts

men "get away" with rape all of the time in this case maybe so maybe no

[shira]

45. It's a travesty of justice and you can't even bring yourself to condemn it.

Not surprising.

[azurnoir]

46. that your drooling to see a Muslim man imprisoned on hearsay is disgusting

and hardly surprising

that the judge did not issue a restraining is a travesty

[shira]

47. You say it's hearsay but also a travesty? If it's hearsay, then the judge did nothing wrong...

...in your view, so it couldn't be a travesty.

Relegated to personal attacks due to your confusion? :)

Since when is it "drooling" to be disgusted at a court for not protecting women from rape? :shrug:

[azurnoir]

48. Hardly confusion do you believe that any man should be

put on trial for rape simply because a women says so? that the allegations of rape had no medical or other backup make it hearsay

even in cases where the there is medical evidence and a police report was filed the man gets off at trial I'll give an example of a real travesty

the womens name was Bonnie Freed it happened in St Paul MN about 20 years ago
she was on her way home from Taste of Minnesota a summer festival held here and a guy literally jumped out of the bushes grabbed her beat her severely and raped her, she immeadiately filed a police report and went through a rape exam when the case came to trial the guy got off because .........

he was black she was white but the defense attorney brought up the fact that she had 2 bi-racial children, the jurors when interviewed post trial said they felt if she's "do it one" she'd most likely do it with "any of them"

that's a travesty

[shira]

49. That's an awful story too. Here's a sick story about the US ignoring Afghan forces raping children

http://pubrecord.org/commentary/7127/us-military-rape-afghan-security-children/

Without question, this would be front page material splattered all over the world media if it were Israel instead of the USA.

And then there are the UN peacekeepers raping children.....

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article405213.ece
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1538476/UN-staff-accused-of-raping-children-in-Sudan.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A30286-2005Mar12.html
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/05/27/charity.aidworkers/index.html

Sick world.

[oberliner]

37. Man convicted of rape by deception appeals to Supreme Court

Sabar Kashour, who was convicted of rape by deception after presenting himself as a Jewish bachelor to a young woman and had sexual intercourse with her has filed an appeal with the Supreme Court in a motion to reverse his 19-month prison sentence.

The appeal states that the judges "represent a dated patriarchal point of view whereby only men can enjoy sexual relations."

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3926891,00.html

[shira]

50. Turns out this story was phony - another hate-filled libel against Israel

Original Haaretz HEBREW...
http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/spages/1187907.html

“I wasn’t wearing pants, stayed this way, because I was in shock. The floor was dirty with blood and I was really afraid of touching myself to see if I’m alright”
By Lital Grossman
Haaretz, September 3, 2010

This is, according to B., was the result of her meeting with Sabbar Kashur – the Arab who became famous for posing as a Jewish bachelor in order to sleep with her. In her testimony, revealed here for the first time, she claimed that on that day, Kashur forcibly stripped and raped her in the staircase of a Jerusalem building. So why did the Prosecution go for a plea bargain with a reduced charge of consensual sex that was obtained by deceit? Why did the media portray a completely different picture from what becomes clear from the testimony? And what does all of this have to do with B.’s past as a prostitute?

The story of “Dudu”, Sabbar Kashur, the Arab family man who posed as a Jewish bachelor and based on this elicited the consent of a young Jewish woman to have sex with him and received 18 months in prison for it – seems weird from second one. Rogel Alper wrote about this in this paper: “Not just Kafkaesque, this is completely mad: before us is a totally banal story, a daily occurrence really, of consensual sex, after which the woman discovered that the man lied to her, and therefore the court decided it was right to send him to prison for 18 months! The essence of this crazy story is: sex obtained by prevaricating details equals rape.” The feeling that the court wouldn’t have been as harsh with a Jewish defendant added a racist undertone to the affair, which only increased the suspicion that this affair is too crazy to be true, even in the current climate. Alper expressed this in the closing of his article, saying “I wouldn’t be surprised if behind this absurd and truly unbelievable plea bargain, there is a more complex truth than what has been published in the media.”

Based on the incomplete facts published thus far in the case, Kashur’s role as a victim became established over the past month and a half, and rightfully so. However, according to the testimony of the complainant, the full story appears to be much more complex, and the victim is the one Kashur left naked in the staircase of the building on 13 Ben Hillel Street (publishing her name is forbidden and she will be called here B.). The new details shed completely new light on this case, and haven’t been published until today because they were first revealed in B.’s testimony in court, which was classified as it was said in a trial behind closed doors. Following the request of “HaIr” , the court recently declassified the testimony and paved the way for its publication. The testimony details in 100 pages B.’s tragic life story and her version of the events that happened on that afternoon two years ago, and is exposed here for the first time.

The event: “He behaved like some psychopath.

The basis for understanding the affair is B.’s life story, a woman in her late 20s from a town in central Israel, who was sexually abused by her father since she was six-years-old, and eventually forced into prostitution by him. She spent parts of her childhood in and out of boarding schools, and as an adult worked as a prostitute, used drugs and for a while even lived on the street, but this didn’t end the abuse from her father. Only a month before the incident with Sabbar Kashur she was once again abused by him and as a result ran away to a women’s shelter. This cruel irony is that this placed her only a few blocks away from where she would eventually be raped....

cont'd...

http://www.mideastyouth.com/2010/09/05/israel-rape-by-deception-turns-out-to-be-brutal-rape-of-a-vulnerable-and-abused-woman/

[oberliner]

51. English version of Ha'aretz also has a story on this

Recently, the Tel Aviv weekly Ha'ir published the transcript of the trial in which Sabbar Kashur, an Arab, was convicted of rape by deceit, duping a woman by posing as a Jew named Dudu. As it turns out according to the report by Lital Grossman, the sex was not consensual, but was actually rape, of the clear-cut, cruel "simple" kind.

"He told me that if I were quiet and did not resist, then it would be, like, it would be over more quickly and it would not be, like, he would not use force. But I did resist and it was by force" - with blood and scratches and scars, which are documented at the hospital to which she was taken.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/believe-in-each-other-1.312429

[Mosby]

52. thanks to you and shira for the updates

Turned out to be very timely.

[azurnoir]

53. LOL n/t

[Mosby]

54. What's funny?

I'm not understanding your reply.

[shira]

55. Better there should be no updates. She's all for the original juicy story as is. n/t

[azurnoir]

56. Lol but shira dear I am not the one posting lurid details am I ?

it seems you are the one who is all for "juicy details" but this is not the first time you've been on the lustful Arab men raping innocent women is it? seems to be a "theme" for you

my post to Mosby really had nothing to do with the content of his posts, but with the where they were posted and when

[shira]

57. Showing how media falsely portrayed another situation is posting lurid juicy details I guess.

You prefer the original story, right?

[azurnoir]

58. actually there are now several versions of the story

I do not prefer any of them however the defendant has appealed the verdict against him
the media simply reported what was available to them until quite recently you are the one making false charges