Childcare experts condemn police treatment of Palestinian stone-throwers

[ConsAreLiars]

Sixty Israeli childcare experts and literary figures have sent an open letter to the prime minister and attorney general calling on the authorities to monitor more closely police interactions with minors suspected of stone throwing in East Jerusalem.According to the letter, police have acknowledged arresting around 1,200 minors in East Jerusalem on suspicion of stone throwing. But critics say that more troubling than the absolute number is the manner in which youths are being detained and questioned.

"Children and youth have reported being taken from their beds in the middle of the night or apprehended by undercover detectives and special forces in their neighborhoods," the letter said. "They were brought in for questioning without a parental escort and sometimes without having been able to notify their families in time. Some were required to give names or to implicate their friends and relatives as conditions for their release."

According to the letter, police have acknowledged arresting around 1,200 minors in East Jerusalem on suspicion of stone throwing. But critics say that more troubling than the absolute number is the manner in which youths are being detained and questioned.

"Children and youth have reported being taken from their beds in the middle of the night or apprehended by undercover detectives and special forces in their neighborhoods," the letter said. "They were brought in for questioning without a parental escort and sometimes without having been able to notify their families in time. Some were required to give names or to implicate their friends and relatives as conditions for their release."

The letter also noted a growing trend of underage suspects suffering from symptoms of post-traumatic stress including nightmares, sleepwalking and bedwetting.

More at: http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/childcare-experts-condemn-police-treatment-of-palestinian-stone-throwers-1.328115
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[azurnoir]

1. Reading the talkbacks it seems the sad consensus

is that the problem is not how the Israel police treat Palestinian children it is in fact the children themselves along with their parents, the treatment they are receiving at the hands of Israeli security no problem nothing to see here what do those Arabs expect ect.........

[arcticken]

2. As a parent I wouldn't let

my kids throw stones and would report any parents I knew who did to the appropriate child welfare office. Anyone who cares about children should do the same so why cut slack for Palestinian parents?

[azurnoir]

3. I did not I pointed out that few in the talkbacks had a problem

with the way Arab children were treated by Israeli police, something completely different

[Crunchy Frog]

4. What do you think should be done to stone throwing settler children?

Same treatment as the Palestinian children? Parents reported to the child welfare office (presumably with subsequent action on their part)? Why do the settler parents care so little for their children?

[Violet_Crumble]

5. Yr unaware that the situations in the US and Palestine are very different?

I didn't realise another country was occupying the US and shooting and attacking yr children. I find it very telling that you choose to ignore the abuse and mistreatment of Palestinian children in favour of blaming the parents of Palestinian children for throwing stones at heavily armed and well-trained Israeli troops...

[LeftishBrit]

9. True BUT...

the same applies to children who break the law anywhere. Even if a child is suspected of a delinquent act, they are still children; and it is not appropriate to take them from their beds in the middle of the night, or to not provide opportunities for family members to be present at questioning.

Also the operative word is 'suspected'. Children, like anyone else, are innocent till proved guilty; and are more easily influenced than adults to make false confessions under pressure.

Israel is hardly unique in this respect. British police are not always perfect in their treatment of child suspects; and it's my impression that American police are often worse.

[Violet_Crumble]

10. What bit of what they said was true?

I totally disagreed with everything they said, so I'm interested to see what it was that you agreed with...

[LeftishBrit]

15. That I wouldn't let kids throw stones. Of course, kids can do all kinds of things whether their

parents let them or not.

In any case, the main point is that even if kids are suspected of a delinquency, that doesn't justify their being denied due process.

[azurnoir]

12. To my knowledge US police do not routinely hold juveniles

incommunicado for days or weeks at a time as the Israeli police are charged with doing in this article as to UK police I do not know but I would guess not

[Violet_Crumble]

14. That's my understanding as well...

I really don't understand what the point is in bringing that up even if it were the case...

[azurnoir]

16. That is bad but this worse or something like that IMO n/t

[LeftishBrit]

17. No...

that we should make a concerted effort against evil practices EVERYWHERE.

I am myself particularly interested in child development issues, and concerned with practices that harm children anywhere in the world.

I am a little frustrated that I was agreeing that the action of the Israeli authorities was utterly wrong, and that whatever the kids had done/ been allowed to do/ been (crucially) SUSPECTED of doing is no excuse for it. But because I haven't expressed it in certain particular terms, and have mentioned abuses of children elsewhere, I am regarded as saying the opposite. It's just like on the other side, when people assume that because you combine criticizing (say) Iran with criticizing Israel, it means that you haven't criticized Iran!

[Violet_Crumble]

20. How about you express it clearly? That might help a bit...

Sorry, but I didn't regard you of saying the opposite at all. I didn't, and still don't, get what yr point was in bringing up the US and saying Israel is hardly unique in that regard. The same comment about lack of uniqueness could be said of just about anything done by Palestinians as well, so I'm not sure what the point is in adding that comment to many of yr posts that are critical of Israel...

[LeftishBrit]

21. How about EVERYONE...

focusing a bit more on what is said rather than how it's said?

Not referring to you specifically; it's just that there seems to be more and more preoccupation with exactly how things are stated rather than the content, in the last few weeks.

'The same comment about lack of uniqueness could be said of just about anything done by Palestinians as well'

Quite so, and I do point it out. This is the problem with the whole area: each side gets portrayed as uniquely bad.

[Violet_Crumble]

23. I'm not sure why you'd be referring to me at all, seeing I didn't do that...

I do focus on what's said, which is why I just responded to yr post and pointed out that I wasn't saying you were arguing the opposite of what you were when it came to the way police treat Palestinian kids, especiallly as yr posts in this thread were clear in being opposed to their treatment. Not sure how much clearer I can make that...

Apart from what you described happening in the last few weeks, there's been a slide over a long time in this forum where ugly views and beliefs will be attributed to others that are clearly not what the other poster thinks or believes at all. Having had it done to me, it's so frustrating that I ended up putting the worst offender on ignore a fair while ago. Doing so leaves holes in threads, but given there was no likelihood the behaviour was going to stop, it's made my DU experience that bit less frustrating....

[azurnoir]

29. I have sadly come to agree

but IMO it was the aim of at least one of 2 on ignore to be put there

[Violet_Crumble]

30. I suspect the motive was the same, but I really don't care...

Skinner referred to that sort of person who knows that someone has them on ignore but constantly replies to the point where it's relentless as being a *broadcaster*. They're not interested in what anyone else has to say, but only interested in pounding everyone else over the head with their 'facts'. I'd like to think such behaviour over a long period of time aimed at many DUers wouldn't be too welcome, but I got beyond waiting for anything to happen and banished them from my DU experience myself :)

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[azurnoir]

36. I did not know that the site owner? had done that

in any event I took Thomas's words as being that of an embittered elderly women and rightfully so, the first interview was an ambush interview, and this time after years of being an admirer of hers I think she was in the let's givem a reason mode, but it must be remembered that she did not say Jew either time. I asked a poster if Zionist meant Jew, but do not know for other reasons if I ever got an answer, I saw another poster ask the same question but again do know if she was answered, my guess is that it does or does not depending on what is needed in situation, but over all was horrified at the smug self satisfied attitude displayed by some posters, it was as if we've finally got that old Arab"

[oberliner]

37. Do you think her comments were ugly and hateful?

Specifically the ones about Zionists owning The White House, Congress, Hollywood, and Wall Street.

[azurnoir]

27. it was your counterpoint that the US and UK can mistreat child suspects as well

that counterpoint seemed a red herring in this case, as to the parents and or other adult being responsible for or encouraging the kids rock throwing, I for one doubt it, in an atmosphere such as the one in the OPT the kids most likely need no encouragement and it is possible that some may take a parents urging of restraint in their actions as either weakness or cowardice if not both and while we know that is not true from the point of view of kid it may well seem so

[shira]

28. Parents and other adults are responsible for Palestinian children. See posts #6 and #19.

[LeftishBrit]

38. I think that there needs to be an international code of treatment of child suspects

so not entirely a red herring. I think that we are more likely to prevent evils if we will make a concerted effort against them *everywhere*.

For the rest, my point was really that it is *irrelevant* to the topic whether particualr parents allowed the children to become involved in lawlessness or not. Many children act against the law for all kinds of reasons other than parental misguidance; some do get in trouble due to lack of parental involvement; some are even encouraged into bad actions by their parents. But it should *not matter* which it is, when one is dealing with police treatment of the children. The principles of children's rights as suspects, and of 'innocent until proved guilty' for all suspects do not mean 'children's rights as suspects so long as their parents are perfect' or 'innocent until proved guilty, so long as their parents aren't suspected of leading them astray'. They need to be applied universally or they mean nothing.

[Ken Burch]

31. You haven't been living under a brutal military occupation for forty-three years.

You can talk when you have some idea of what THAT might be like.

From here, none of us, living in freedom, safety and comfort, can really judge what we might do if we were in that situation.

[shira]

6. The really disgusting child abuse is when Palestinian kids are used by adult propagandists

Here's video evidence of a recent event...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjSdbVZ8QPY

To add insult to injury, this incident was reported by many outlets as an evil settler deliberately running over an innocent Palestinian kid. To date, there have been zero retractions.

:eyes:

Yet another reminder of how certain media outlets deliberately invert the Arab/Israel conflict.

[arcticken]

7. What's worse is that it keeps the flames

of hate fanned. Why do some people want that more than they want peace? Oh yeah, peace means less news and less income or stuff to bitch about on the innertubes.

[Violet_Crumble]

8. I do think that anyone who blames Palestinian parents is fanning hatred...

You were asked a few questions further up in the thread. I'd be very interested to see what you have to say in reply to those question...

[arcticken]

11. I DO blame any parent whether settler OR Palestinian.

Keeps the KIDS out of it. Your mileage may vary.

[Violet_Crumble]

13. Why are you excusing the Israeli police for their treatment of children?

If you cared about all children as you claim you do, I find it strange and very telling that you'd not say a word about the way they're treated by the Israeli police but enbark straight into a blame the parents routine.

[LeftishBrit]

18. But supposing that a kid (settler or Palestinian or British or American)

IS suspected of lawless behaviour.

This doesn't mean that their parents must have drawn them into it, for a start. Especially in areas where lawlessness and violence and conflict are common, children can be drawn into it against their parents' will.

Secondly, whatever the children are suspected of doing, they are still children, and should be treated according to due process of law as children.

And 'suspected' does NOT mean 'guilty'.

[shira]

19. Unfortunately, it's been proven conclusively that Palestinian children have been used by adults...

...for both political and military purposes. They've been used and abused via...

-Brainwashing (Hamas Mickey Mouse show, Antisemitism and incitement to violence in Mosques and Schools)
-Child Combatants
-Human Shields
-Hamas summer training military camps for children
-Rock throwing
-Used in suicide bombing attempts

A few more random facts:

Yasser Arafat's depty, Abu Mazen, admitted to a Kuwaiti newspaper in June that Palestinian children have been paid NIS 5 (about $1) for every pipe bomb they throw.

Children have been increasingly mobilized during 2002 for suicide attacks; their parents have received cash payments from the Palestinian Authority, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia.

The attempt at a cover-up; The Palestinian Journalists' Association has warned members that they would be punished if they photographed armed children.

One mother told a journalist from The Times in London, "I am happy that he (her 13 year-old son) has been martyred. I will sacrifice all my sons and daughters (12 in all) to Al-Aksa and Jerusalem."

Another reason Palestinian parents allow and even encourage their children to get involved is the financial incentive offered to families of "martyrs." The PA furnishes a cash payment - $2000 per child killed and $300 per child wounded.

Violent death is sanctified throughout the Palestinian areas. The streets are plastered with posters glorifying the exploits of individual suicide bombers. Children trade martyr cards purchased at their local shops, instead of Pokemon or baseball cards, and necklaces with pictures of martyrs are also very popular.

In a PA-run summer camp, a New York Times reporter observed campers staging the kidnapping of Israeli leaders, stripping and assembling Kalashnikov assault rifles, and learning techniques of ambushes.

Blatant child abuse of this kind, and efforts to cover it up, would not be tolerated anywhere else in the civilized world. Where are the children's welfare advocates to condemn the practices that poison the minds and imperil the bodies of young Palestinians?
http://www.internationalwallofprayer.org/A-096-Child-Abuse-In-The-Palestinian-Authority.html

Most of this is censored by the media and hardly mentioned at the UN or by NGO's and Human Rights groups.

Indeed, most who say they're pro-Palestinian here at DU would rather not discuss this. For some odd reason, it's racist or bigoted to mention all this abuse by Palestinian adults and it's better to mainly focus on whatever Israel or the IDF does (whether true or false). I suppose it's because Israelis are "white" and Palestinians are not, so Palestinians can't be criticized like Israelis should...

:eyes:

Kinda difficult taking these accusations of child-abuse seriously from hypocrites who can't be bothered to voice any criticism at Palestinian adults for their role in child abuse that is magnitudes greater than anything Israel can be accused of.

[LeftishBrit]

22. But that still doesn't detract from the point here.

Adults in many other countries can recruit children into gang violence, or train them for it. On a somewhat pettier but still abusive level, it's not all unknown for a burglar to use a child (smaller and thus better at squeezing through windows and the like) to assist in the crime. This is utterly wrong BUT it does not mean that police brutality against the children is justified. There is one point, moroever, that keeps getting missed: police intimidation of children is not just damaging in itself, but can lead to them making false confessions, and thus to legal injustices.

'Kinda difficult taking these accusations of child-abuse seriously from hypocrites who can't be bothered to voice any criticism at Palestinian adults'

Why? They are just as true or untrue, whether or not the people who make them are bothering to criticize Palestinian adults. If you think that the accusations are FALSE, or unproven, or unreliable, fair enough; but it should not depend on which other groups they are criticizing.

[shira]

24. There's nothing wrong with reporting Israeli injustice against Palestinian youths...

These matters should be dealt with responsibly. Israel has laws that deal with abuse against children, and if they do not (in certain cases like these) they should. Violations should be prosecuted. This is all reasonable and fair criticism that should go public.

What's sickening is that usually these reports are coming from people or organizations which only pretend to represent the rights of Palestinian children. It's these degenerates who couldn't care less about all the abuses Palestinian children endure under the PA or Hamas. They use human rights - of children in this case - only as a weapon to bash Israel. By deliberately censoring themselves from reporting/criticizing child abuse by Hamas, the PLO, Palestinian parents, the media, etc.. they are also guilty of participating in child abuse (purely for political purposes). They have a responsibility and they are deliberately choosing to suppress that which they are either ethically or legally bound to report.

I don't take accusations of IDF child abuse by Hamas officials seriously. Or by Yasser Arafat or David Duke. Why should I take these accusations of abuse seriously by degenerates pretending to be human rights advocates or responsible journalists?

[LeftishBrit]

25. Are you actually comparing these left-wing Israelis...

with David Duke and Hamas?

Sorry, that's over the top, even if you think they are wrong or unjustified.

Not that different from calling Israelis Nazis, as far as I'm concerned.

[shira]

26. No, professionals who use Palestinians for political purposes and don't really care about kids

...are the degenerates I have a problem with. Some could be bigots or racists, others I don't know about. These are professionals who are ethically/legally bound to report child abuse but deliberately do not. What do you think of such people? Should they be fired, fined,...?

And I could care less whether they say they're Leftists or Rightists. They're certainly not liberals.

Also, I'm not talking about the 60 people from the OP, as we have no idea who they are. They could all be the good guys, but maybe not. It's an open letter. I wonder if it's available on the internet in English?

[Ken Burch]

32. Yeah, right....it's the KIDS facing a massively armed ARMY and massively armed fascists settlers

Who are keeping the hate fanned.

If it weren't for the rock-throwing, the Occupation would be over and all would be sunshine, lollipops and roses. Right.

Which explains why the Occupation ended in 1994 when the Palestinians DID do what the Israelis demanded. And why a prosperous and free Palestinian state now exists without any foreign troops roaming its streets and bringing life to a perpetual standstill.

Oh...wait a minute...

[shira]

34. It's sick adults using those kids who fan the flames. See posts #6 and #19. n/t